Saturday, December 10, 2016

Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter: Who should be honored with sandek for the mamzer?

There have been rumors circulating Philadelphia about the birth of a mamzer.

Since both R Kaminetsky and R Greenblatt have accepted Tamar's illegitimate marriage that occurred without getting divorced from her first husband, what does the halacha say about the priority of honoring these rabbis when she gives birth to a mamzer. Should it be R Kaminetsky because he was responsible for conceiving and engineering the "heter" or should it be R Greenblatt for giving the "heter" and marrying her to her second husband. Or perhaps it should be R Sholom Kaminetsky for doing all the work of running around the world shopping for a posek who would rubber stamp the "heter" that he and his father cooked up based on the phony psychiatrist report? After all there are not that many poskim who would be so irresponsible as to refuse to investigate any of the "facts" by claiming to do so would be an insult to Daas Torah. Truly an Ish Tam!

I am sure they are as proud of their success in producing a mamzer as are their many students and supporters. Perhaps the Aguda should declare a joint day of rejoicing for the corruption of halacha with the Philly Yeshiva - maybe even get Lakewood involved. After all their own heroic silence in the face of such a blatant violation of halacha surely should not go unrewarded? I am sure they will also give proper recognition to Rav Dovid Feinstein - who have after carefully establishing that the "heter" was garbage - restrained his halachic instincts and said nothing to the couple about separating - merely noting he gave a private psak for R Shmuel! After all, "It's not in my back yard." Something I am sure he learned from the Noviminsker Rebbe's pronouncement on sexual abuse in Yeshiva Torah Temima.

Of course we can't leave out ORA from the honorees for this event nor their halachic advisor R Herschel Schacter - who has been uncharacteristically silent about his alleged disapproval for the heter. We should also include not only the Washington Beis Din for improper interference in the matter but the Silver Springs community - that has continued to show that they are people of principle - though not of halacha - by boycotting Aharon Friedman for not given a get. This despite the fact that the authorized Baltimore Beis Din said that he had no obligation to give one.

Yes I am sure that there will be many people who will join in celebrating the birth of this mamzer - after all the hard work they have put in to help produce it.  I am sure everyone will want to contribute - not only a donation to the Philly Yeshiva but also send a present to the mamzer himself.  Don't forget to include a personal note of appreciation and gratitude for such gedolim. And of course don't forget to include a line that you are sure that Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky zt"l is getting much nachas from his son's and grandson's activities.

Yes with such an inspiring support of Daas Torah - this mamzer has a bright future ahead of him. I am sure he can look forward to one day marrying one of the granddaughters of these gedolim.

SEE NO EVIL, HEAR NO EVIL, SPEAK NO EVIL!

30 comments:

  1. a) this is very satirical
    b) is there such a phrase as "sandek for a mamzer" anywhere, which is like the sheretz in the mikveh?
    c) If there is a mamzer, could anyone find a release for the poor child's status?

    ReplyDelete
  2. I heard from a reliable source that R' Nota told them not to have kids.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Your "rumor" are incorrect. This story is over... Just let it die.

    ReplyDelete
  4. ממזר ופצוע דכא וכרות שפכה וערל שמתו אחיו מחמת מילה, כשרים לעדות.
    The Shulchan Aruch states that a mamzer is a kosher witness in all matters
    נולדו לו זכר ונקבה, ומתו והניחו בנים, הרי זה קיים מצות פריה ורביה. בד"א, כשהיו בני הבנים זכר ונקבה, והיו באים מזכר ונקבה, אף על פי שהזכר בן בתו והנקבה בת בנו, הואיל ומשני בניו הם באים הרי קיים מצות פריה ורביה. אבל אם היו לו בן ובת, ומתו, והניח אחד מהם זכר ונקבה, עדיין לא קיים מצוה זו. הגה: היה הבן ממזר או חרש, שוטה וקטן, קיים המצווה.
    Further the Shulchan Aruch says that a mamzer fully counts.

    ReplyDelete
  5. “Since both R Kaminetsky and R Greenblatt have accepted Tamar's illegitimate marriage that occurred without getting divorced from her first husband, what does the halacha say about the priority of honoring these rabbis when she gives birth to a mamzer.”
    This reminds me of Amona, once a Left-court makes a bad ruling---difficult to correct. See me on 1. http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/19888
    2. www.inn.co.il/Articles/Article.aspx/15622 This also reminds me of NYS Court of Appeals case # 2016-1135 Gerald Aranoff v. Susan Aranoof. Once a NYS court makes a bad radical feminist ruling---difficult to correct.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Is this a joke that Tamar's pregnant?

    ReplyDelete
  7. there are rumors circulating Philly that she is

    ReplyDelete
  8. let what die? my protest against the heter? the concern that the heter will eventually result in mamzerim?
    In what sense is it over? and it what sense do you want it to die?

    ReplyDelete
  9. did your reliable source say why? It is rather strange to get married with the understanding not to have children - not sure what the halachic justification for nullifying the mitzva of procreation?!

    ReplyDelete
  10. The version that I had heard (a year ago), was that he told them to wait until things quiet down.

    ReplyDelete
  11. “Of course we can't leave out ORA from the honorees for this event nor their halachic advisor R Herschel Schacter - who has been uncharacteristically silent about his alleged disapproval for the heter. We should also include not only the Washington Beis Din for improper interference in the matter but the Silver Springs community - that has continued to show that they are people of principle - though not of halacha - by boycotting Aharon Friedman for not given a get.”
    This heter is part of the Epstein et al court case that is still in process. How do I know? Aaron Friedman testified and so did others on the $60,000 paid to Mendel Epstein’s beit Yacov and shul to heinously beat up Aaron. This is like Clinton supporters so angry that Trump won---sour grapes. Yes I’m a Trump supporter. I expected Clinton supporters to quiet down after January 20, 2017, when Trump becomes president.
    The radical feminists are so angry of what the FBI did to Mendel Epstein, they concocted the heter. This only to raise their middle finger to those that don’t agree with them. Once the court rules finally on Epstein et al, the radical feminists, including rabbi supporters, will disassociate themselves from the phony heter. They will not speak up now seeing that Mendel Epstein et al has points of Jewish law before the court, e.g.
    Pacer 11/30/2016 … REPLY BRIEF FOR APPELLANT EPSTEIN …The defendants always denied that they intended to “threaten [or] coerce” anyone to give a get. This could not, then, be their purpose in any “holding” of the obstreperous husbands. After all, in the defendants’ minds, a coerced get would be theologically invalid, thus defeating the purpose of the entire enterprise, which was to secure freedom for the chained women that would be recognized in the Orthodox community.

    ReplyDelete
  12. The concern that the heter will lead to mamzerim. There are no children going to be born and I think you are just stirring the pot senselessly

    ReplyDelete
  13. Oh - so you think that as long as there no mamzerim produced there is no problem with adultery!?!? What version of the Shulchan Aruch do you use?

    ReplyDelete
  14. What is your source? This is just a lie... No rumors and not true

    ReplyDelete
  15. how do you know it is a lie - are you Tamar's doctor?

    Whether the rumors are true or not - there are rumors stating that this is a fact

    ReplyDelete
  16. "Rumors stating that this is a fact" sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. The other option is that it is just a hook to enable to get people all riled up again, as the furor seems to have fully died down.

    ReplyDelete
  17. "there are rumors stating that this is a fact"

    Got to be true then, right.

    ReplyDelete
  18. no rumors don't have to be true - but they are not automatically false

    ReplyDelete
  19. I am surprised that you have apparently never heard someone say that there is a rumore that
    x is true or that X is a fact.

    I was responding to the fact that this is being talking about it Philly . So your claim that the furor seems to have fully died down is simply not true. You might have noted that the cental post to the scandal which I have fixed at the top of the blog returned to the list of top ten posts - before I made the latest posts

    ReplyDelete
  20. Vayhi kemishlosh chadoshim... vayugad lemor zonso Tamar kalosecho. We fill find out in less than three months. There is Kessef metaher mamzerim. What will be the case if conception was done in vitro? Or if further given to a surrogate? Anyone.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Politically IncorrectDecember 12, 2016 at 3:34 AM

    Ah, Sholom Alaichem .......and ....L'Chaim...where have you been?!!

    ReplyDelete
  22. Politically IncorrectDecember 12, 2016 at 3:38 AM

    All the more of a reason to keep the heat!

    There should be an established registry with all prominent rabbonim acknowledging in writing that their offspring are mamzerim. There are, that's what a lot of them signed! The pit I'd wide open....and ready .....

    ReplyDelete
  23. Besides, if you were to let this go on it's little merry way, you can be sure that there would be an attempt to produce mamzerimlech in two-three years. And as you said, there is a public adultery that is going on here.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Has a child been born to this couple?
    R' Hershel Shachter has withdrawn any support for the case.
    RHS did not agre to annulment of the mariage, he only stated the Talmudic dictum that you can beat a recalcitrant husband to give a get, since it is a mitzvah. That is an entirely different process from what RSk/NG are implicated in.

    ReplyDelete
  25. How can they be blamed? the so called "couple" has the blessings of the whole Agudah yisroel of America , we haven heard anything from them on this travesty and they continue to greatly honor Rabbi Kaminetsky as if nothing happened !

    ReplyDelete
  26. Ask kamenutsky or furst or greenbut they will come up with sumpim

    ReplyDelete
  27. Kalonymus HaQatanJune 3, 2020 at 4:32 PM

    Old Alliance School Building in Jerusalem that caused so much opposition amongst the hareidim, being turned into a hotel
    https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-fattal-to-open-2-jerusalem-mahane-yehuda-hotels-1001277842

    ReplyDelete
  28. https://www.torahvodaath.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Rav-Shmuel-Kamenetsky-greeting-bochurim-in-the-Beis-Medrash.jpg

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.