Q-
Is it a proper opportunity for the Rav to advise us on who to vote for in the upcoming election?
A-
Is it advisable for me to recommend voting for one individual over
another? Yes, absolutely. It's certainly advisable for Jews to back
conservative candidates. Now, exactly which conservative candidate is
the best choice is a matter that requires deliberation. But there's no
question that the Jews have for too long carried on an affair with the
liberals and it has caused them a great deal of suffering. And as long
as the liberals will continue to have power we are going to have a
continuation of the present disorder of society.
All the theories of the liberals as to how to improve society are
garbage. The plain truth is that forty years ago, without any of these
theories, society was relatively stable. And it was based on one easy to
understand principle - and that was that there has to be stern justice.
And that's all! Now, the liberals will say, "No, that's nothing. It's
not true. Capital punishment only increases crime." But that's baloney.
It's sheker vi'kazav. There's one thing wrong with this country and
that's it. Now, don't say that I'm oversimplifying things. Because they
oversimplified in the olden days and we were able to walk in the
streets. Everyone was afraid of the police. Until Mayor Lindsay came
along and emasculated the police, everyone was afraid of a policeman.
And that's what we need. We need more police brutality. And although
innocent people might suffer sometimes, it pays. We need tough police
who don't care what you say about them. We need police who have
headquarters with bosses who disregard the complaints. In the olden days
if you walked into headquarters and complained, the Police Captain
would bark at you, "What do you want?!" That's what he said to you. He
didn't listen to you polititely. "What do you want?!" he said. And you
walked out with your head down.
Capital punishment is the best rehabilitation for criminals. There
used to be a Sing-Sing and it was a perfect educational institution for
criminals. Anyone who went to Sing-Sing and worked on the [garbled] rock
pile, when he got out he had learned that crime doesn't pay. In
[garbled] you didn't have television. All you had was an iron mallet and
you stood in the sun in [garbled] and you banged and you banged and you
cracked rocks and you sweated. And you were thinking all the time, "Why
was I such a fool to get into this?"
It's nothing but yir'as ha'onesh. And even tzadikim need it. The
best people need it. And it would solve almost all crime. But instead
they make a crime-study commission and they spend hundreds of thousands
of dollars and they bring scientists together and the result is that
there's more crime than ever. And you know why? Because it's the
scientists who cause crime. Scientists are causing crime. They're the
ones who say that we should do away with harsh punishment and that we
should listen to the complaints of the criminals. So when the prisoners
recently made an insurrection in the prison and they killed some guards
and they demanded to be heard, what happened? So the Governor appoints a
commission and the members of the commission come to the prison to
listen to the complaints of the felons. Instead of taking them and
putting them into solitary for ten years on bread and water. That's what
they used to get in the good old days. That's what they got and that's
why we didn't have crime. You didn't have crime! What kind of stories
are they telling us that there was always crime?! There wasn't crime. I
remember, I walked home from Mesivta Chaim Berlin every night, summer
and winter, through black neighborhoods. Who ever heard of somebody
snatching a woman's pocketbook in broad daylight. In the olden days -
[At this point the tape ends vi'chaval al di'avdin]
TAPE 125
THE ABOVE QUESTION AND ANSWER WAS RECORDED FORTY YEARS AGO - A FEW WEEKS BEFORE THE CARTER-FORD PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION OF 1976
This doesn't apply so much anymore. Police 50 years ago were raised as Christians, didn't wear tattoos, listen to heavy metal music, lift weights, and gobble steroids. They weren't a military force. They weren't corrupted by drugs. They were Irish men with Irish pappas and mammas and they went to Church, were not divorced, and played baseball with their sons. Police brutality today operates on a whole different level.
ReplyDeleteinteresting point
ReplyDeleteyes. maybe we should have vigilante committee's to keep the community in line. Since dictators are more effective in maintaining order than democracies....
ReplyDeleteDo you really want to go there?!
Thanks for posting this.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Miller's timeless words of Torah are always on the mark. The fact that Leftist protesters are allowed to attack Trump rallies without any law enforcement is outrageous. It is also outrageous that strict law enforcement is not applied to Black Lives Matter outrages and disruptions of peace abiding individuals. The manacling of the police in New York by leftist DeBlasio has made it a much less safer place.
The police should be much more active and not hampered by the squeals of Leftist ideologues.
So you support the notion that police are guilty until proven innocent?
ReplyDeleteYou support the Justice Department that Eric Gardner was brutalized and murdered, against the findings of the FBI?
You support the riots of Ferguson, where the Justice Deparment did find that Michael Brown's death was justified? However, the good liberalized Justice Department justified the riots and destruction by claiming that the Ferguson police department was a racist entity - even though they were right in the Brown case.
You support the Baltimore riots and destruction after Eddy Grey died, even though the courts found the police to be innocent?
Do you support the LA riots of 1992, the cold-blooded murders, the looting, lawlessness and destruction? 55 people were killed, 2,000 wounded and about $1,000,000,000 worth of destruction. All because a highly drugged, huge guy resisted arrest, had punched a police woman in her face, led the LAPD on high speed chase and was only able to be subdued by their buttons. In their state of heightened adrenaline flow, they hit him an extra 20 times. Do those extra whacks justify the riots, murders, looting, utter destruction....?
The United States created the democratic system. The same country that created this system also had a system of law and order, which worked for almost 200 years. It is liberals and socialists who are challenging the law and order of this country. They seem to forget the utopian USSR didn't materialize. Instead, it turned into a first class Animal Farm.
It is the liberal and socialist ideology that produced the USSR and their 100,000,000 body count. It is the democracy of this country that existed for the first 150 years that produced the general sense of security, freedom and opportunity for its inhabitants. All these have been under constant attack for over 50 years. The results are a declining America, despite having won the Cold War.
Honesty I really don't understand what your comment has to do with what I said. Rav Miller is talking about the need for 100% genuine police brutality - not allegations which have little evidence behind them.
ReplyDeleteNot sure why you think this country and democracy in general is based upon police brutality and arbitrary exercise of power. No I do not support riots - that in fact is equivalent to police brutality. Violence exercised against the rule of law "for a greater good"
There is a reason that we are halachically required to support the rule of law in the country we live. Dina d'malchuso dina. A cop beating up someone who irritates him is not an example of conservative principles nor is preventing the police from beating and killing innocent people an exclusive left wing principle.
Was Hitler a left winger or right winger? The definition used today is that anyone you disagree with must be left wing. A rather unhelpful definition as can be seen from the "enlightened" comments on this blog as well from Trump and his followers. I see very little difference between Trump and McCarthy who categorized anyone who disagreed with him as a commy or a pinko.
I am for the rule of law and I am for the rule of good laws which have been thoughtfully crafted for the good of society. That is the official Jewish position - contrary to what Rav Miller is saying.
BTW the founding Fathers of the country you think conservatives have saved did not view themselves as conservatives but liberals.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/6/24/1395447/-4-Conservative-Myths-about-the-founding-fathers
Humans are imperfect and any system of government that relies on humans is naturally imperfect.
ReplyDeleteBeing that we live in an imperfect world, Rabbi Miller saw the ideas that think that we can turn this world into perfection to be flawed. He was similar to George Orwell in that aspect. He felt that the unrealistic attempts at making the world perfect did more harm than good and counter-productive. But he was particularly interested in his brethren, the Jewish community.
He wrote and lectured about why it is that Jews who are unfortunately distanced from Torah are usually liberal and utopian minded. He wrote and spoke about why it was Jews who were involved in changing and redefining pornography laws. He saw the liberal movement that was against morals, family values and a clear definition of right and wrong to be the problem. Any movement that they started is seen as a replacement - a replacement of a system that acknowledges that humans are imperfect. The fact that the movements against supposed police brutality is in essence a movement that condones and encourages violence and lawlessness, is something that Rabbi Miller saw as a must! He felt that it is impossible to have such a movement that actually values law and order.
He wasn't in support of KGB type police force. He was in support of the American police force that had functioned well, although imperfectly, in this country. He saw the attempts at change to stem from an unrealistic liberal/utopian worldview. The fact is, he was proven to be correct!
35-40 years down the line, and he the anti police brutality movement is strong. And all they do is weaken law and order, all the while rioting, looting, destroying, injuring and murdering.
The final point that must be considered is his choice of words. He was not a charismatic figure or orator, yet he was by far the most listened to lecturer in his time. He did use a certain language in order to get his point through, particularly to his Americanized/liberalized/utopianized attendees, especially when he was answering a question. The actual lecture part was different. In order to get his point across properly, he was unable to give an inch.
_____
I do not think that disliking and being disturbed by injustice and brutality turns a person into a liberal or left winger. I am trying to explain Rabbi Miller's position, which was particularly poised against the liberal and utopian mindset and motivation that Jews had.
perhaps nowadays rav miller's opinion would be a little softer, just as the views of rabanim nowadays has changed on the subject of hiiting children as a punishment.
ReplyDeleteyou may see the comparison as ludicrous but think about it , & then think about it & then ....
please produce evidence that concern about police brutality weakens society. From what I have read the police leadership disagrees with the value of the brutality that Rav Miller is advocating.
ReplyDeleteBTW would you send our children to a school that had a similar attitude of terrorizing the children through random beatings and punishment so that they learned to "respect" the teachers? Would you advise parents to terrorize their children? Do you advocate smacking one's wife around so that she becomes more attentive and respectful. If not - why not? Could it be that you and the rest of contemporary society - including the conservatives - have collectively rejected the approach of Rav Miller? Could it be that it has sunken in that such an approach really doesn't work.
I think we are speaking past each other.
ReplyDelete1) Rabbi Miller's position about how to treat a wife is well known. His ten commandments for marriage is still a strong seller. He wrote a book as well. No, he was in strong opposition to smacking a spouse around to teach respect etc.
2) I don't think that there is any evidence that he supported random beatings at school or terrorizing children.
3) There is a huge difference between concern and a movement. There is all the evidence out there that Black Lives Matter - and similar MOVEMENTS - have weakened the police, rule and law. Rabbi Miller was addressing movements. The scientists and studies were conducted by and because of movements. His points about accountability, even for tzadikim, is one you would usually agree with.
To simplify it: The American police force was never an agency that worked for tyrants, communists or dictators; they worked for the democratic and civilized society. The goal of every police officer was to serve the public - although they weren't perfect.
Claims that the American Police force was inherently unjust was really the rejection of law and order hiding under a noble cause, just like Black Lives Matter is.
Rabbi Miller's language has to be understood in its context.
I think perhaps you meant this comment to go to someone else?
ReplyDeletedon't follow your reasoning. A lot of people are in jail because of mandatory sentencing which is not the result of liberal policy. Can't use that as a proof that society has been corrupted by liberal philosophy in fact the opposite is true
ReplyDeleteRead a little about the L.A. Police force as well as the NY Police force regarding police brutality. Historically the concern is not simply the result of tearing eyed left wing complaints. Police brutality is real and it doesn't build respect for the police - the opposite is true. Community based policing where the residents feel the police care on a personal level is more effecting than the attitude that Rav Miller proposes. While you are at it you might read a little about the Birmingham Alabama or the Mississsipi police force and their attempt to establish "respect".
Bottom line, Rav Miller is basing himself on gut feelings about a particular period in history which is not representative nor is it an accurate description of the real world. Cherry picking facts is not an intelligent way to understand and issue.
Please quote people in chinuch who think that Rav Miller's prescription - or Rav Dessler's are a prescription for a functioning society.
We Will go circles without convincing each other. Crime hiked terribly in the 70's and 80's. It also went down in the 90's, after medium changes were made. Crime is on the hike again.
ReplyDeletesome crime is on the rise and other is decreasing
ReplyDeleteRav Dessler was not chassidish. Not sure how wide spread it is now in chassidishe schools and I don't have information whether it works. I gather you don't either.
What Livtishe yeshiva follows Rav Dessler's guidelines?
Rabbi Miller often exaggerated when discussing politics. He also often said you don't have to listen to my politics.
ReplyDelete