If he really believes the nonsense he is spouting about widespread voter fraud - he should welcome an official recount
NY Times
NY Times
President-elect Donald J. Trump said on Sunday that he had fallen short in the popular vote in the general election only because millions of people had voted illegally, leveling the baseless claim as part of a daylong storm of Twitter posts voicing anger about a three-state recount push.
“In addition to winning the Electoral College in a landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally,” Mr. Trump wrote Sunday afternoon.
The series of posts came one day after Hillary Clinton’s campaign said it would participate in a recount effort being undertaken in Wisconsin, and potentially in similar pushes in Michigan and Pennsylvania, by Jill Stein, who was the Green Party candidate. Mr. Trump’s statements revived claims he made during the campaign, as polls suggested he was losing to Mrs. Clinton, about a rigged and corrupt system.
The Twitter outburst also came as Mr. Trump is laboring to fill crucial positions in his cabinet, with his advisers enmeshed in a rift over whom he should select as secretary of state. On Sunday morning, Kellyanne Conway, a top adviser, extended a public campaign to undermine one contender, Mitt Romney — a remarkable display by a member of a president-elect’s team. In television appearances, she accused Mr. Romney of having gone “out of his way to hurt” Mr. Trump during the Republican primary contests.
Claims of wide-scale voter fraud have been advanced for years by Republicans, though virtually no evidence of such improprieties has been discovered — especially on the scale of “millions” that Mr. Trump claimed.
Late on Sunday, again without providing evidence, he referred in a Twitter post to “serious voter fraud in Virginia, New Hampshire and California.”
A day earlier, Mr. Trump’s transition team ridiculed the idea that recounts were needed. “This is a scam by the Green Party for an election that has already been conceded,” it said in a statement, “and the results of this election should be respected instead of being challenged and abused.”
That message runs counter to the one Mr. Trump sent on Sunday with his fraud claims — if millions of people voted illegally, presumably officials across the country would want to pursue large-scale ballot recounts and fraud investigations.
But the Twitter posts could energize some of his supporters, who have claimed online that Mrs. Clinton’s two million-vote lead in the popular vote has been faked. Mr. Trump at times promoted other conspiracy theories during the campaign, including claiming that Senator Ted Cruz’s father was somehow tied to the assassination of President John F. Kennedy. [...]
Through the day, Mr. Trump appeared fixated on the recount and his electoral performance. In a series of midafternoon Twitter posts, not long before he boarded his flight, Mr. Trump boasted that he could have easily won the “so-called popular vote” if he had campaigned only in “3 or 4” states, presumably populous ones.
“I would have won even more easily and convincingly (but smaller states are forgotten)!” he wrote.[...]
TTT. Typical Trump Tactic. Fight fire with fire. Fight lies with lies. Trust me. In politics in America, fighting lies with truth isn't always the most effective strategy.
ReplyDeleteSo...Ms. Clinton is participating in a recount? Really? I guess she can claim something like "it depends on the definition of 'concede'" in order to defend her actions.
We the People get what Mr. Trump is doing. He's mocking the oh-so-refined lying of politics-as-usual.
"We are getting attacked for participating in a recount that we didn't ask for by the man who WON election but thinks there was massive fraud" - Marc E. Elias, Lawyer of the Clinton Campaign
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/marceelias
""The people" wanted Hillary. The compromises of 1787 delivered us Trump" - David Frum, (Chairman, Policy Exchange)
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/802607575112028160
Jill Stein says she has pure motives of just making sure everything was done properly, but should she not then question states where crooked Hillary won as well? The Democrats and the crooked one are behind this. Crooked Hillary wants to stay on Trump's good side to keep her and Bill from being further investigated. By making Stein the front person for this challenge, she was hoping to have her cake and eat it to. The Donald is seeing through all of it. As usual, the left is showing their hypocricy. I see nothing wrong with using full legal means to challenge an election, just as I though Trump was RIGHT to not commit to accepting the results if he lost. Noone should blindly commit to that, including Democrats. However, crooked Hillary acted as if it would be the worst thing ever done, yet she is now doing it. Anyone that believes a word the crooked one says is a fool.
ReplyDeleteTrump is as least as crooked as Clinton is so there is no reason to use the description on one but not the other
ReplyDeleteplease repeat in English
ReplyDeleteWhile all those around these parts know that I was certainly a Clinton supporter in this election, this claim is nothing short of silly. Both campaigns were run based on the knowledge that the winner is determined by the Electoral Collage, not the popular vote, and ran their campaigns accordingly. Looking at the popular vote as significant in this manner is like saying that the team that had more yards on offense really won the game, not the team with the most points.
ReplyDeleteTrue for a game. But this is not a game. It is about the mandate of the president-elect in a democracy. More americans supported "progressive" policies, and so cannot be ignored in a democracy.
ReplyDeleteHe's not even half as crooked as Hillary Clinton. Whatever his many faults are, she proved on Election Night she doesn't have the temperament to be President by the way she fell apart on learning she lost.
ReplyDeleteOk. Let me break out my "Acme Comment Decoder Ring" and turn the bezel to line the notch up with "Joe":
ReplyDelete"TTT. Typical Trump Tactic."
Translation: Mr. Trump is using a rhetorical device to make a political point. This is a longstanding political technique going back to ancient Greece.
"Fight fire with fire. Fight lies with lies."
Basically, he is taking his opponents technique of lying, and exaggerating the technique for satirical effect. He is parodying his opponent to point out their flawed approach to politics.
"Trust me. In politics in America, fighting lies with truth isn't always the most effective strategy." A competing technique, rather than making light of the opponent, s taking the opponent seriously and poking holes in the opponent's logic and pointing out that the opponent is making statements that are not true. My experience has taught me that this alternative technique often has limited effect in the political realm.
"So...Ms. Clinton is participating in a recount? Really?" This statement points out that Ms. Clinton is acting inconsistent with her having conceded the election.
"I guess she can claim something like 'it depends on the definition of "concede"' in order to defend her actions." Ms. Clinton's husband, President Clinton, famously defended himself by pointing out that his answer would depend on the definition of "is". I was suggesting Ms. Clinton might argue that she really did not mean to concede the election. She might want to say that participating in a recount does not contradict her accepting Mr. Trump as President-elect. She might want to claim that her actions are consistent with conceding the election. Because it all depends on how to define "concede".
"We the People get what Mr. Trump is doing. He's mocking the oh-so-refined lying of politics-as-usual." In America, politicians are given leeway to lie, prevaricate, mislead, fabricate, etc. Many voters have had enough of it. We delight in Mr. Trump making bigger lies, prevarications, misleading statements, and fabrications in order to tie his opponents up in knots.
Trump is not mocking anyone except for himself. He sounds like a three year old who was told he can't have an extra cookie.
ReplyDeletehis fit about the millions of illegal voters doesn't sound like he can handle the job either
ReplyDeleteAnd crooked Hillary is still the most corrupt major party candidate to run for the Presidency. Her lies have cost us tens of millions of dollars in investigations. Her lies have been about affairs which included the death of innocent Americans. When Donald Trump lies to a mother of a dead American murdered in a terrorist attack and when Donald Trump lies while under oath testifying to Congress, then we can begin to have a discussion about who the bigger liar is. At this time, it is unquestionably crooked Hillary that is the bigger of the liars.
ReplyDeleteyour comments about Clinton don't make Trump fit for the president or excuse is erratic, impulsie and immature behavior. his level of not telling the truth or getting his facts straight have been consistently higher than normal for a politiciian and often at odds with what is beneficial for himself.
ReplyDeleteNo Trump is clearly the biggest liar of all
While everything you say may be true, the system set up in the constitution uses the electoral college. We can have a scholarly debate whether or not this system is fair, but as things stand it is the law. And everyone knew this going in to the election.
ReplyDeleteAgain, you seem to be missing out on a simple point: The Republicans can counter that had the election been determined by popular vote, they would have campaigned differently and won the popular vote by 10 million. Of course, there is no way of knowing if that is true, but there is no way of disproving it either. If your point is only that the American people are divided, I would grant you that.
ReplyDeleteIsn't that a winning technique? I observed this technique years ago when I was learning in the Bais Medrash at the local Yeshiva in the summer time. The Yeshiva was off and part of the Bais Medrash was being used as a camp for little girls. A high school age girl was the main counselor. She would sit in front of the campers and go into a kind of trance. She would talk very slowly, in an exaggerated sing-song way. Basically, she projected herself to the campers as "one of them", only bigger and more experienced. The campers hung on her every word. She had total obedience from them.
ReplyDeleteI'm amazed how some of my friends today, Republican or Democrat leaning they may be, buy into some of the wild conspiracy theories. The man or woman who wants to gain public office ignores these voters at their own risk. The smart candidates channel the craziness to get elected!
And he's OUR lier.
ReplyDeleteDT is obtuse to the extent that Trump's rhetoric during the campaign mocked the press, making them into fools. An example: during the campaign Trump said that 'Hillary and Obama created Isis'. The mainstream media, in their contempt for the intelligence of ordinary Americans, reasoned that the Average Joe would not figure out that Trump was merely making an allusion to the fact that the Obama Admin left no American troops behind after pulling out of Iraq, allowing Isis to arise. Any sane person would realize that Trump was not speaking literally. The press then attacted Trump for this 'outrageous contention', fully expecting him to issue a 'mea culpa', having to explain and walk back the statement. Instead, Trump 'doubles down' and repeats this 'outrage', exposing in high relief, the hypocrisy of the MSM and its Left Wing supporters.
ReplyDeletePlease do not ask me to repeat this in English, for it insults my
intelligence and yours.
wow so you saying that Trump speaks in "code" for his followers and that all the rest of us morons just don't get it?
ReplyDeletePerhaps it is you who are going overboard and rationalizing the activities of a person who is about to be the President as to how he could show such an outrageous sense of language or deliberately routinely communicate in a way that half of the population doesn't understand what he means?
Sorry - I don't see that you have proof that Trump is acting as rational as you are insisting. He is not concerned with facts but what impact words have on people and he is so bizarre in his speech that sometime you can claim that he really means the opposite of what he is saying - but sometimes he does insistent the bizarre statements were meant literally. There really is no way to tell.
So I am not interested in insulting your intelligence but you are insulting mine. I am astonished that an intelligent person could insist with a straight face that the President is not to be held to his word ever because he often speaks in hints and allusion that only his true believer followers understand correctly. It is more likely that he speaks this way in order to retreat from positions which are too strange even for his followers or because he wants to be able to say he meant the opposite without admitting that he is in fact retreating or changing his true position.
Bottom line - we don't need a PROPHET or an ORACLE as a leader. We need someone who when he says "shoot the missle" or "drop the bomb" to his military he didn't really means to say "those people are irritating". He is not exposing hypocrisy he is acting as a demagogue who refuses to be held accountable for his words or ever be proved wrong. He wants his cake and eat it at the same time and his followers grant him the right to do or say anything he wants and they just get such a feeling of pride when half the population finds his lies irritating. They shep nachas by the condemnation of his critics and say "wow look at the hypocrisy he is exposing". No it is not hypocrisy - it is the normal reaction of members of a democracy when they are being treated with contempt.
actually he is your liar because it looks like he has no interest in what the other half of the country thinks about him
ReplyDeletethat used to be called a demagogue and it was not meant as a compliment
ReplyDeleteDear Sir,I see clearly that President elect Trump victory is bothering you immensely,like it is indeed bothering a certain amount of the American population.I see that you never fail to dish out more and more negative articles about Trump.
ReplyDeleteBut pray please tell me,what is your alternative???The electoral college race was not even that close at all,and one cannot say that Trump barely won.The rules are the rules,and it bothers me to see you so despondent over Trump winning.
Does it bother you how many lies Trump says,and that people think Trump is better than Clinton.I will assuage you by stating that I,myself voted for Trump,even though I do not favorably approve of Trump,and I know he has problems with what he says.And believe me ,there are many voters who feel the same as me.
But I never expected non-Jews to be ethical and trusting to begin with.So what is the big surprise that Trump lies??Was Nixon any better with his lies??Or Bill Clinton????A goy will be a goy.
But really,what do you want to happen??Trump won,and so what can be done about it-moan and groan???I go on,because your attitude among others bother me a lot,for nothing positive can come out of bemoaning th obvious.
We are almost freed of President Obama,and I found it to be a difficult eight years with him as a leaders.Besides his not too keen attitudeabout Israel,he has made the USA weak in the war of terror in his inability to confront Islamic militants,and to call it what it is.But what can one do,we daven to Hashem for the best.So too here,let us daven to Hashem for protection,and believe me if Trump does anything illegal.,there is enough power in our government to indict him,and Vice President Pence will take over.
Burt really,what other alternative do you want at this point??Please,inform me.
I gather you never took a course in civics or studied history or political science? The election is not the end of the involvment of the public. They are not expected to roll over and play dead for four years until the next election.
ReplyDeletePerhaps you are not aware of the importance of a free press ? No it most important mission is not to entertain the masses with sports and movie stars. A democracy depends on an informed and active citizenry and that is what I am doing.
To the degree that my activies bother those who think that Trump is comparable to the gadol hador and thus demands and has to right to expect "my president right or wrong" - I feel it is necessary to present the facts even stronger.
Bottom line - it depends whose ox is getting gored as to whether what I post is viewed as a hopeless and embarrassing obsession or a necessary and important reminder of what needs to be done and what is acceptable.
Actually, I like history a lot!!!But I will admit and not lie that I do not have any degree in it, civics or political science.
ReplyDeleteBut you still did not answer my question!!!What is your alternative or in another words your purpose in showing a countless of blogs that President elect Trump lied???
I do not care if people protest, and I never asked anyone to accept Trump as one would accept a dictator.
All I want to know is what are you demanding of Trump??To keep his words??To make a declaration that he will never lie again??Is there a law in the American rulebook for lying??Should such a rule be made up??I am curious what people like you want Trump to do.
What amazes me is that Trump is not even the President, and still there are people going a bit whacko over him being there.
When President George W. Bush beat Gore, I did not see such a reaction. Or when President Reagan beat President Carter, I did not see all this protesting's.
So please inform me, what is it that is bothering you so much about Trump, and what does Trump have to do to make you and the other people that think like you ,happy.
And he's (now I'll choose my possessive more carefully) MY demagogue.
ReplyDeleteWhat truly amazes me is the level of "blind-faith" that many in the frum community seem to have in Trump, in spite of his obvious character flaws. I mean, how can we expect that an amoral, manipulative and blatantly dishonest individual will be blessed with success as the leader of a great nation!
ReplyDeleteyour first question has an obvious answer which I though you would understand from what I wrote. Taking note, publicizing and if need be protesting are necessary parts of what has to be done - even with the best choice of president - which Trump clearly is not. What is it about that that you don't understand?!
ReplyDeleteTrump has clear, well-known personality and character flaws . Do I need to repeat them again or can you pick that up from previous posts? I am bothered as a psychologist with what I see, hear and read about Trump
I take it from here that you are personally not attuned with the President elect Tump,as a person,and seem to be a bit nervous that such a person is headed to lead this nation,as Trump is quite unpredictable,and changing his mind constantly.
ReplyDeleteI personally was bothered that why don't people just wait until Trump becomes President,and then one can sees what he does.
But I gather from what you are saying,that you feel it is imperative to protest right now over his mental behavior in how he handles the country.
I hear,and who knows-maybe Trump will hear the concerns,and hopefully get his act together before he actually becomes President.
See my recent post
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/11/how-to-manipulate-donald-trump.html
there are now many warning bells - even before he becomes president -