Since the day that the Temple was destroyed, the Holy One, blessed be He, has nothing in this world but the four cubits of Halachah alone. (Berachos 8a).
It is clearly not enough to serve G-d simply by davening or just keeping Shabbos. It is not enough even if you also believe the 13 principles of faith It is still not enough even if you learn Torah day and night.The reason for the creation of the world and man was to keep Torah The commandments of the Torah must be obeyed - the mitzvos done and the prohibition obeyed. And they must be done properly
We all know that there are different degrees of keeping mitzvos even though as a minimum all the commandments must be kept. The chareidi world prides itself on not looking for the easy solution to halachic question – but rather our concern is to try make sure that we do what G-d expects of us – no matter how difficult or what sacrifices have to be made. We are not like the Conservative that only keep that which is convenient or the Reform that only keep that which they want at that moment. We are not even like the Modern Orthodox who seem to believe that anything which is pleasurable must be permitted. If there is a question of whether a Torah mitzvos is being kept it is necessary to be machmir while a sofek derabbon we can be meikel.. In cases where the appropriate halacha for a particular situation is in doubt there are a number of strategies. In a dispute of poskim we can follow the majority or follow the greatest posek or follow the local minhag. Alternatively in a dispute in halacha we can try to act in a way that fulfills the requirements of most poskim.
In general we look to gedolim to provide role models of how to observe halacha. In general they don’t say it enough to simply pick a view of any posek. Thus the Mishna Berura paskens in a way that it fulfills the views of the major poskim. Or the Aruch HaShulchan argues for the view that he finds most convincing or what is local practice. Rabbi Akiva Eiger and Rav Moshe Feinstein say psak is following what is considered the strongest sevara . Rav Ben Tzion Abbah Shaul says that psak is finding a strategy for minimizing error. He notes the exception of the views of the Shulchan Aruch which are authoritative because they have been accepted by the Jewish people. While the strength of the kabbalistic views of the Arizal is that they are based on ruach hakodesh.
Bottom line we see a great concern of poskeim and gedolim in all ages to take great care to minimize the likelihood of erring in halacha and to focus on ascertaining what G-d wants – and not simply what the daughter of an important supporter wants.
In view of this taking great care not to violate halacha – even for a minhag and surely for a rabbinic law and it goes without saying not a Torah law. – what we find in the production and protection of the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter is simply astounding. The Kaminetkskys contacted poskim all over the world – not to ask them what to do but to ask them to agree that Tamar did not need a Get based on phony psychiatric report that the husband was crazy. They carefully described in their letter that in addition to the husband being crazy, that no woman would want to be married to him and that Rav Moshe Feinstein had said in such a case that there was no valid marriage.
However they neglected to mention that the psychiatric diagnosis that the psychiatrist gave – based on the wife’s testimony without speaking to the husband – even if accurate was not severe enough that a wife typically would want a divorce. They neglected to mention that the wife had not mentioned any problem of mental illness in discussions with the Baltimore Beis Din. Nor did they mention that she did not mention any problem of mental illness during the years she claimed to be an agunah because her husband refused to give her a get prior to certain custody issues being resolved.
Thus the Kaminetskys went posek shopping with false information about the husband. Nonetheless they were rejected by most of the poskim they contacted. It was only when they reached out to Rabbi Nota Greenblatt who was willing to pasken solely on the facts he was given - without an independent investigation or even contacting the husband because he believed he was obligated to accept everything that Rav Kaminetsky told him – that they got a heter.
We all know those who have been criticized by gedolim for posek shopping. For demanding a specific psak rather than going to a posek to ask him what the halacha is. We have heard of gedolim criticizing those who make up facts in order to get a desired psak. And yet despite the fact that the Kaminetskys did all of these transgressions - there is a determined silence by our rabbinic leadership.
Furthermore after the firestorm of protest from major poskim around the world against the Kaminetsy-Greenblatt Heter and after asking for and getting a similar rejection of the heter from Rav Dovid Feinstein and even after acknowledging that the heter was no good – nothing was done to get the couple to separate. Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky said it is not his job to tell this couple that he persuaded to commit adultery – to separate. He claims it is Rav Nota Greenblatt’s job! Rav Greenblatt refuses to withdraw his heter – despite the fact that he was informed that the facts he had received were not true. He says he had enough justification for issuing the heter and he isn't concerned with investigating whether the facts are false. Thus these two tzadikim declare themselves to be free of an elementary Torah obligation to protest and separate sinners from their sin - an exemption which doesn't apply to the rest of us.
If a yeshiva bachur was found to be eating meat of a questionable hecher – it is inconceivable that he would not be told by his rosh yeshiva and friends to stop. If an avreich went shopping for a heter to enable him to marry a questionable convert – there is no question that this would be criticized. If any other case where a woman tried for years to receive a Get and then suddenly announced she was remarrying without one – there would be world wide protests and the couple would be ostracized by the community.
Please ask your local rabbi – why the perversion of halacha done by Rav Kaminetsky has not generated world-wide protests? Ask him if you decided to act in a similar manner regarding your halachic questions of nida, kashrus or Shabbos – would he also be silent? Better yet ask him if he has any problem if you planned on adopting the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt approach to halacha? What would he say if you told him that from now on you were simply going to pick as halacha the most lenient view or you will make up facts to convince a posek to give you a heter – because that is what the Kaminetsky’s did? Ask him why the Kaminetskys are not being held accountable for perverting halacha and causing adultery and possible mamzerim. Ask him why no gedolim are protesting a blatant and well publicized transgression? Ask him if preserving Rav Kaminetsky's reputation is more important to Yiddishkeit than G-d's Torah?
======================Important comment by Joe Orlow===============
======================Important comment by Joe Orlow===============
After talking several times to Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky, and repeatedly trying to speak by phone to Rabbi Dovid Feinstein, and also trying to get Rabbi Feinstein to respond to an email I sent him, I now present "Joe's Take":
ReplyDeleteThe party line is the following:
(1) Rabbi Feinstein and his special Bais Din ruled that Tamar Epstein is married to Aharon Friedman.
(2) Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky accepted this ruling. That is, if you ask him, he'll tell you there are Rabbis who hold that Tamar Epstein is married to Aharon Friedman.
(3) Rabbi Nota Greenblatt is a recognized expert in marriage and divorce. Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky, and possibly Rabbi Dovid Feinstein, hold that Rabbi Greenblatt is an authority that may be relied on.
(4) Thus, Rabbi Greenblatt's performing the second marriage of Tamar Epstein is not something to be toyed with, questioned, second-guessed, or undone. It must stand.
(5) Otherwise the whole house of cards comes tumbling down. Rabbi Greenblatt has apparently released other women from their marriages but who seemingly needed a Get. DO YOU REALIZE WHAT A MESS WILL ENSUE IF WE HOLD THAT HE MADE A MISTAKE HERE?!
(6) Thus, all apparatchiks must play along or risk losing their jobs, their reputations, and even the possibility of any of their unmarried offspring ever getting married.
(7) Here is how to play. (a) You must believe that Tamar Epstein is legitimately married to her second "husband". (b) You must hope and pray and hold on to the desperate dream that Aharon Friedman will give Tamar Epstein a Get real soon, so that WE CAN JUST PUT THIS WHOLE AFFAIR BEHIND US AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!!!
If the report is phony, out the window goes along with it, *no woman would want to live with him*. Honest opinions are only as honest as the honesty of the opinion giver. Prejudiced opinions are not valid and have no integrity. Indeed, anshei Emes declined to validate this Heter since Ikar choser min hasefer and would only parrot of what has been passed of which is only maassei kof bealma. If you don't play with a full deck of cards, the whole migdal falls apart like a house of cards having a Domino effect. Therefore, R' Moshe's Psak has no resemblence. Did any of the contacted Poskim inquire for a further clarification to follow up the supposed facts of which never came? Then there it is, an outright fraud.
ReplyDeleteWe yet haven't mentioned all irregularities of the wife concerned, on top of everything else. Then starts the game of Ping Pong, The K's hurl the givens to RNG the Grand Mumche leinyanei Gittin, but RNG admits that his Mumcheshaft is not part of the mix, he was only spoon fed as is, he relied on the K's the so called Gedolim asher ein lehoshiv, Im ken, lama ze anochi. All parties concerned admit that they relied on the others scrutiny, that never happened. Promises, Promises for a time out to listen to R' Dovid that they never complied with, so what have got left, so called Gedolim?
If you give any funds for such a mosed, it is al keren hatzvi where Torah does not rule. Why then would you send your children lehashkeni mibor mayim of beis lechem??? No Jews need apply. There have already been many Roshei Yshivos banning this Yeshiva.
"We are not even like the Modern Orthodox who seem to believe that anything which is pleasurable must be permitted." This is a slur that has nothing to do with the point of your post. There is no permission to say lashon hara about millions of frum Jews to no end.
ReplyDeleteDear administrator,
ReplyDeleteI am curious. Have you revealed to your readers, in the interests of full disclosure, that your brother writes in one of his blogs that he himself convinced Aharon Friedman not to give a get, thereby paving the way for a need for an alternative solution?
Don't you think this is a likely conflict of interest that you need to inform and periodically remind your readers of?
Isn't it possible that your indignation and point of view regarding the heter may be fueled by a sense of guilt that the whole necessity for the heter was brought about by YOUR VERY OWN BROTHER?
According to you Rav Kaminetsky couldn't control himself when face with Aharon Friedman's refusal to give a Get and that was my brother's fault?! Then again maybe it was because of a Satanic abuse ring or maybe one of those killer clowns did it? According to your logic the Jews were responsible for the death camps because if they didn't exist then Nazis would not have killed anyone?
ReplyDeleteyour "profound" analysis should be reserved for more important things like whether chocolate ice cream tastes better than vanilla. Or whether 1 + 1 = 2 or sometimes 3 for large values of 1.
it is a quote from an article by a Modern Orthodox scholar
ReplyDeleteYour "response" is quite bizarre and actually lends credence to my point.
ReplyDelete1) You refuse to answer the question whether or not you disclosed to your readership the matter of your brother's involvement in convincing Aharon Friedman to NOT GIVE A GET.
2) You go into a bizarre rant that has nothing to do with what I said. If you actually read what I wrote, I was not addressing who was or was not at fault for this heter; I was not even saying that anyone is at fault for it. (That is for a different discussion.) I was making a point about YOU, dear administrator.
I was pointing out that perhaps YOU have guilt feelings, because this whole heter, which everybody agrees is a lot less preferable to a get - to put it mildly -, was only necessary due to the interference of your brother who actually persuaded Friedman to not give a get.
3) The tone of your response and the weird, irrelevant meshalim tend to suggest that you were somewhat unnerved by my comment.
4) I think your readers have a right to know of the potential bias you may have. There is a good reason to assume that you would be bristling with anger at those who procured a heter which automatically rendered your brother's actions - besides being foolish and cruel - an indirect cause of a marriage that according to some authorities is forbidden. I may not have a Ph.D in psychology but I do have a Ph.D in common sense.
5) Perhaps this "minor" detail about your brother's involvement would have been of interest to the person who wondered recently, in a comment, about your obsession with this case. I don't believe that your reply to him - "I am obsessed with keeping the Torah" - fully resolved his wonderment.
So what? Even if it were true there would be no excuse for including such a disparaging remark in an article describing a conflict within the Chareidi community. Your post has nothing whatsoever to do with the behavior of the Modern Orthodox (or for that matter the Conservative and Reform.) Whatever the truth and source of the remark, it is wholly gratuitous in this context.
ReplyDeleteNo it was not a gratuitous insult.
ReplyDeleteIt is in fact the chareidi belief in their superior concern with the observing of mitzvos and serves to reinforce the point that the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter is worse than the leniences that are presumed to be acceptable with the Mordern Orthodox and in fact descend into Reform and Conservative territory.( I acknowledge that such a comparison may be inaccurate and insulting to the Reform and Conservative movements and I apologize for any who might be insulted.).
Apparently everyone else got my message except for you.
The greater leniencies found in the Modern Orthodox world are not a secret and is openly acknowledged.
BTW the exact quote was "We are not even like the Modern Orthodox who SEEM to believe that anything which is pleasurable must be permitted." You will note I did not say that the description was accurate but from the Chareidi point of view it does "seem" to be true.
You find the description of Modern Orthodox to be insulting - are you Modern Orthodox?
the simple answer to your accusation is that my brother has mentioned it on this blog. It is not a secret nor is it a conspiracy to protect my delicate readers from the truth.
ReplyDeleteI have no guilt feelings about what I have written - and if you can't stop writing this type of nonsense I will simply mark it as spam. I would not disgrace the Ph.D. by associating it with your level of common sense or elementary understanding of what has been going on.
Here is a hypothetical (for now) question.
ReplyDeleteIf Tamar decides she wants a divorce from Adam Fleischer and receives a get from him then decides she wants to marry another man, can she go back to R. Greenblatt for him to perform another marriage without receiving a get from Aharon Friedman?
Don't understand. Rabbi Greenblatt views that she never married Aharon Friedman. If she got divorced from Adam then according to Rabbi Greenblatt she is free to marry another man without ever having to concern herself with Aharon Friedman
ReplyDeleteBut the weird and incomprehensible thing is that Rabbi Greenblatt is of the position that Aaron Friedman may not remarry without a get. He believes that his "heter" is only for the "agunah" and not for the man. How it makes sense is beyond me - but that's his position.
ReplyDeleteMay I answer here?
ReplyDelete1) Why are you blaming R. Dovid Eidensohn? Please consider the following: (I will try to update this later with links).
A) Aaron Friedman was wronged by Tamar Epstein in her manipulation of the court process. She asked to go to BD. Aron agreed. Because of that he lost his standing in court. Lo and behold, Tamar walked away from the BD and refused to follow their rules. Worse than that, she had R. Shalom Kaminetzky bully the Beis Din.
B) Aaron Friedman was humiliated and hurt - wrongfully - by team Epsetin-Kaminetzky. They bussed a bunch of naive people into Silver Spring to stage a public protest. They made a public protest outside his grandparents home. They had every single Shul in his community ostracized him, wrongfully. They had disgusting, slanderous hit-pieces published in secular newspapers against him.
Tamar never apologized. No significant steps have been taken to undo the unjust damage and hurt against Aaron Friedman. Why don't you blame the injustice purposely done against Aaron as the reason why he won't give a get?
If you would like a get to be given, convince Tamar to publicly apologize and to take significant steps to undo the damage that she has done. Untill then, blaming the world is an escape.
2) Why would you go into a week psychoanalysis of Rabbi Eidensohn? Is that another escape from the tough reality? What is the actual purpose of it? (Oh, and if you wanted to email him privately, you can find his email address right here on this page.)
3) At what point will you stop your nonsense of shifting the blame. So long you, your family and all those that need to undo their wrongful actions do not do so, blaming will get you nowhere. As a kid I was told "that and a token will get you onto the bus".
4) Well, for full disclosure, why don't you tell us who you are? We know Rabbi Eidensohn is; what his education is; his profession; the books he's published; who his mentors were and are. Why don't you practice what you preach and put all this information out here. What's good for the goose is good for the gander!
> We are not even like the Modern Orthodox who seem to believe that anything which is pleasurable must be permitted.
ReplyDeleteThat's kind of insulting. It's like if I were to write "We are not like the Chareidim who seem to believe that children can be sexually molested by their cheder rebbes without any recourse to law"
Would you or Rabbi E please provide us with the names of the Roshe Yeshivas who have banned this Yeshiva?
ReplyDelete@Adam
ReplyDelete"Isn't it possible that your indignation and point of view regarding the heter may be fueled by a sense of guilt that the whole necessity for *the heter was brought about* by YOUR VERY OWN BROTHER?"
Sorry to burst your bubble, but R' Dovid the brother came into the picture only after the invention of the so called Heter.
First, Adam must give a Get, just so for those people that it seems as if there was a valid Kidushin with Adam (since they cohabited together) and they then see Tamar go free without a Get, people will say that you can be FREE without a Get. (Mishna in Yevamos, Teitzei mize umize, Adam first and in that order.)
BTW, are you related to Tamar?
A bonus question for you. Should the paramours decide to have a petri dish child, would that be considered a mamzer? I am yet not throwing into the mix, of who will be carrying the embryo? As is, a childless marriage is not considered *doing better* after all. Is this possibly something in the wings?
Since you have a PhD in common sense, here is another one. Why did the K's enter into such a mess, Talmud states, ein Adam chote veloi lo, vechi ma lohem ultzoro hazos?
Now that they are in the Pickle, why don't they just throw in the towel?
But who is her Rav? If she went to Rabbi Greenblatt on the advice of the Kaminetzskys, would that advice still hold for a new, separate instance of "marriage"? Or would she have to accept the view now held by Reb Shmuel based on the psak of Rav david Feinstein, shlita,that she is still married to Aharon Friedman?
ReplyDeleteBTW, what was the point of the special Bais Din if it did not validate nor invalidate Tamar's marriage to Adam Fleisher?
“If any other case where a woman tried for years to receive a Get and then suddenly announced she was remarrying without one – there would be world wide protests and the couple would be ostracized by the community. Please ask your local rabbi – why the perversion of halacha done by Rav Kaminetsky has not generated world-wide protests?”
ReplyDeleteOh, due to wide and deep support of Mendel Epstein et al, Shimen Liebowitz et al, and Rivera, Garcia, and Katherine Magbanua etc. These perpetrators are beasts and deserve jail. Aharon Friedman has courage and nobility. I admire him. Those that fight him are beasts.
(internet 2012):
“Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official congressional Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah International, which supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media has little effect because many husbands still are resistant after all the bullets have been fired."
For the sake of Peace and for the sake of the Torah, it would be wise for Tamar Epstein to end this barren marriageless union. This would save face for all parties concerned, and she can move on freely in life after closing some loose ends. As is, the Gedolim keep on getting flack, and she continues to be a loser. The biological clock is ticking away while no one has a peaceful night of rest. It takes a toll on everybody's health, and there is nothing to gain. If you take this bold step, it is a Win Win Win situation, and a Freilichen Yom Tov to us all.
ReplyDeletewhat is the current status of the get/ 2nd marriage? Is RSK standing by his psak or is it withdrawn?
ReplyDeleteNot precise. Aharon wants to give a Get. He is waiting for Tamar to return to the Bais Din where she signed a Shatar Brurin. Rabbi Dovid Eidensohn advised against giving a Get under pressure since such a Get would likely be invalid.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if you could disclose any potential bias you may have. What is your relationship to Tamar Epstein?
ReplyDeleteShortly after Rabbi Greenblatt performed the marriage of Tamar and Adam, I called Rabbi Greenblatt. Just about a year ago. He told me that Aharon must still give Tamar a Get.
ReplyDeleteI remember reading that article once, but who was the author?
ReplyDeleteThe Yerushalmi says that we will be held to account for denying ourselves permitted pleasures. The Hareidi view "seems" to counter this problem by making sure that there are no permitted pleasures. Again, "seems", and it is not meant as an insult. It is a question of prishus - which Chazal and Rishonim were strongly in favour of. Even Rambam spends a lot of time writing about his model of prishus in his Moreh Nevuchim.
Halacha can be argued in many ways - is a leniency made for pleasure, or because the majority (of an edah) cannot abide by a humra? Is a kula bad in itself or because of the reasons it is being proposed (eg feminism, secular ideals etc)
I think there is more than meets the eye than just questions of pleasure and leniency.
Rav Kaminetsky has not withdrawn his psak - in fact he denies paskening. Rav Greenblatt paskened. However Rav Kaminetsky has not said the psak was wrong but simply that he accepts the psak of Rav Dovid Feinstein. At the same time RSK refuses to tell the couple to separate and says it is not his responsibility
ReplyDeleteyes it is kind of insulting. But do you disagree that that is the Chareidi view as well as some Modern Orthodox scholars. Do you view it as a gratuitous insult or relevant in the context of showing how bad Rav Kaminetsky's actions are?
ReplyDeleteProf Moshe Koppel
ReplyDeletehttp://traditionarchive.org/news/originals/Volume%2036/No.%202/Yiddishkeit%20Without.pdf
can they be considered to be in a kosher marriage within the Memphis area, as RG is the mara d'atra there? May sound silly, but it would work if it was regarding kashrut or shechita.
ReplyDeleteSeems like I made some negative comments on that post too :) But today I leave it to the others.
ReplyDeleteMany of the MO Rabbonim I knew 25 years ago have shifted more to the right now. That is often the case - let's say they are now in their 60s or 70s, they are less Modern than they would have been when I was 18 or so.
Generally that would be so, even Rav Elyashiv ztl was a little more lenient when he was in is 40s than when he became one of the Zekeinim and Gedolei haDor in his 60s and 70s. This is human nature. I think it may even have been the case with Rambam, or at least in the impression we get from his last major Sefer, which was the Moreh HANevuchim.
Thanks for asking. Rav Soloveichik of Jerusalem for one, and when the Search on this page will be in service I will try to fetch others. Please forgive for the delay.
ReplyDeletethis idea has been mentioned as the reason that they traveled to Memphis to get married instead of using Rav Kaminetsky.
ReplyDeleteThis might be relevant in a minority opinion but in this case there is no machlokess regarding the halacha it is simply whether Rabbi Greenblatt can ignore reality and pasken on clearly false information and thus the psak being indepdendent of the facts. The answer is obviously no!
If he was told a pig was a cow - his psak that it was kosher is as valid as his being told that the husband is crazy when he is totally normal and a psak that the marriage was not valid.
Chag Sameach, Ehud.
ReplyDeleteA Get is essential from the second because of kilkul not just a chumra, (see also Yevamos 99 ./:)that people shouldn't think that she was in fact married and still went out without a Get. They will mistakenly say that an eishes ish *can* leave without a Get. It is incumbent for her to leave both husbands with a Get, and a noefes can never marry her paramour. RNG either knew / found out and conveniently did not pursue due diligence about the psychological state and status whether the alleged Report it has any credibility. When he was informed about it he said
ReplyDelete1) it is not polite to ask from a Godol whether the report has any merit
2) it is not his job to inform the couple to depart, let those that brought the report do so. The K's claim that RNG paskened, while father K claims "Meolam lo hitarti eishes ish lashuk", and so it goes as if horseplay, (and I don't mean no play). See the mashal of the shomrim on a Pardes, a Chiger and Suma, veharkivehu. Something stinks here and smells all the way to Denmark and back.
Don't quite understand why the couple is waiting for the so called gedolim to tell them. Hochiach tochiach applies to any Jew that sees something to say something as have already done Gedoilei haPoskim. What are they waiting for.
You got it right, they must have come up with another baloney for R' Kanievsky and R' Steinman that R' Dovid is taking care of this issue as in Aba kayam - Eima kayam vechozer vecholile
It's called a Quark Heter.
ReplyDeleteThank you, my friend. Wishing you and all the bloggers the same as well as a zissen yohr.
ReplyDeleteThere are two ways to promote yourself - you can discuss what's positive about you or you can bash your competitors. Everything you said about the Chareidi approach to Torah was eloquent. You did not need to veer into "And we're not like those other losers". It ruins the positive first part of the paragraph and opens you up to people who can accurately rebut every claim you make about Chareidi hashkafah.
ReplyDeleteAnd if I spend time to find the quote by the prominent Chareidi posek who was going around telling folks that it's okay to cheat on your taxes because a major US judge said it was (except he didn't) would you admit that "Chareidim" say it's okay to cheat and steal from the government?
ReplyDeleteNo, I am not insulted. But it is unquestionably a disparaging remark and you seem to recognize it, as indicated by your use of the word "worse" in "...worse than the leniences that are presumed to be acceptable....".
ReplyDeleteSince you can make your point ( as my edited version of your paragraph makes clear) that the behavior you complain about does not meet usual Chareidi standards of devotion to mitzvot without the irrelevant comparison to others, it is indeed gratuitous. It doesn't add to the argument in the slightest. Can we not take pride in devotion to Torah and Mitzvot without disparaging others? Should we not be careful in shmirat halashon? Does the truth of a disparaging remark give one permission to make it for no purpose? How does anything at all about the real or assumed behavior of the MO affect your judgement of R. Kaminetsky's and R. Greenblatt's behavior? You would be (I hope) saying exactly the same thing if there were no MO.
They live in the Philadelphia area.
ReplyDeleteIn the chareidi world - the comparison to other groups is done on a regular basis to reinforce the correctness of the Chareidi approach. Without the comparison to the other groups the argument is significantly weakened - from the Chareidi point of view.
ReplyDeleteI strongly disagree with you that the comparison adds nothing. It clearly emphasizes that not only is Rabbi Kaminetsky mistaken but his approach is worse than other groups that are regularly used as points of comparison. That is a more significant argument than just saying he is wrong.
I would definitely agree that a significant number consider it valid. However as far as I know there is no differential on that issue between the Chareidi, Modern Orthodox and general public.
ReplyDeleteI understand your point but you clearly fail to understand how chareidim think and talk. My article was directed to the chareidi public and for them the point is greatly reinforced by the comparison.
ReplyDeleteAgain I am not addressing the issue of the way it should be - I am speaking the chareidi dialect and making my point in the manner that the chareidi population understands best.
In my observations, this is true, but with varying degrees. Each subgroup uses this in differing amounts, with some barely going there. (When I was in yeshiva, we did not go there. Comparisons to other Jews was not done.) But it is an important line in the article in order to highlight the hypocrisy and the ridiculousness of this fiasco.
ReplyDeleteEhud,
ReplyDeleteI too was under the assumption that R' Dovid Eidensohn only came into the picture after the heter came about.
However, I discovered that he himself writes on his blog Torah Times the following: "Mr. Aharon Friedman has been publicly humiliated by a New York organization called ORA, the organization of resolution of Agunoth, because he won’t give his wife a GET at this time...I TOLD AHARON that he may not give a GET under pressure because a coerced GET is invalid."
The above quote is from a letter R' Dovid Eidensohn wrote to the Washington Rabbinate. It is dated כסלו תשע"ג. It can be found at the following URL: http://torahtimes.com/attack-on-washington-dc-rabbis-who-coerce-a-get-with-humiliation/
Furthermore, in an inconspicuous comment R' Dovid Eidensohn posted on this blog in March 2013 he writes the following: "I AM THE RABBI who told Aharon Friedman he must not give a GET as long as ORA threatens him as the GET would be a coerced GET. He decided I was right, and called up a friend of mine to state this."
That comment can be seen at: http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/03/halachic-authority-requires-being.html#comment-1399190137
OK. I don't see it, but I am not really your target audience. Why isn't reinforcing Chareidi norms by the comparison to other groups מתכבד
ReplyDeleteבקלון חבירו
To all those who inquired,
ReplyDeleteI am not related to Tamar, I have never met or spoken with her, and I have no connection whatsoever to her or any member of her family.
As a matter of fact, I never even heard of her until this past year, when the whole controversy erupted.
(Also, in case you were wondering I am not a talmid of Philadelphia Yeshiva.)
Regarding the question of who I am, rest assured that my name would mean nothing to any of you. I am not a well known person whose name you would recognize.
Millions? How are there millions of Modern Orthodox if there are six million American Jews, 10% of which are Orthodox, and of the 600,000 Orthodox 66% are hareidim, per Pew Research on American Jewry.
ReplyDelete“Since the day that the Temple was destroyed, the Holy One, blessed be He, has nothing in this world but the four cubits of Halachah alone. (Berachos 8a).”
ReplyDeleteBerachoth 8a:
Raba said to Rafram b. Papa: Let the master please tell us some of those fine things that you said in the name of R. Hisda on matters relating to the Synagogue! He replied: Thus said R. Hisda: What is the meaning of the verse: “Of the Korahites. A psalm. A song. The Lord loves the gates of Zion, His foundation on the holy mountains, more than all the dwellings of Jacob” (Psalms 87:1-2). The Lord loveth the gates of Zion [Ziyyon] more than all the dwellings of Jacob? The Lord loves the gates that are distinguished [me-zuyanim] through Halachah more than the Synagogues and Houses of study. [Beth Midrash is here understood as the house of popular, aggadic lectures which, however, was not devoted to the study of Halachah.] And this conforms with the following saying of R. Hiyya b. Ammi in the name of Ulla: Since the day that the Temple was destroyed, the Holy One, blessed be He, has nothing in this world but the four cubits of Halachah alone. So said also Abaye: At first I used to study in my house and pray in the Synagogue. Since I heard the saying of R. Hiyya b. Ammi in the name of Ulla: Since the day that the Temple was destroyed, the Holy One, blessed be He, has nothing in His world but the four cubits of Halachah alone,I pray only in the place where I study. R. Ammi and R. Assi, though they had thirteen Synagogues in Tiberias, prayed only between the pillars where they used to study [In the Beth-hamidrash].
This fits well with David Freidman in today’s JPost:
http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/First-100-days-470563
“We have been entrusted a legacy by the greatest of generations that preceded us to ensure that Israel survives and flourishes as a light unto the nations and a permanent home for the Jewish people.”
The greatest of generation are entrusted with a legacy to keep halacha. The Greenblatt-Kamenetsky heter and the Greenblatt marriage of Tamar to her boyfriend while her husband is alive and well and refuses to divorce her---violates the legacy to keep halacha. One should not study in Kamenestky’s yeshiva.
Thank you for your careful research that shows that your original claims against me were unjustified - even according to your standards
ReplyDeleteYou mean because of the 1 comment your brother made to your blog 3 and a half years ago that nobody knows about except for me after making "careful research"?
ReplyDeleteYou have not told us who you are. We are unable to check you out for your biases. It is very obvious that you are deeply biased and are not rational about this issue or this blog. Your little blog is not go going to change the facts and the realities here; teshuva and correcting the mistakes will.
ReplyDeleteWe also have no way of verifying your relationship to the Kaminetzkies. Just give us full, verifiable disclosure.
you are the one who is making a big deal about this. That comment refutes your allegations. Your bizarre analysis still needs to be justified
ReplyDeleteI understand your point but here's what you seem to have missed: anybody out there can read what you wrote and to anybody out there who's not part of your club the statement is insulting.
ReplyDeleteThere's also the thought that when Chareidim speak of 'the other" it has to be with an insulting tone because, what, we're lesser than y'all?
I have yet to hear of a prominent Modern Orthodox posek who justifies tax fraud, or writes letters defending convicted child molesters while defaming the families of the molested children, or call Chareidim vile names because they don't support Israel, or...
ReplyDeleteBut would you not agree that's a significant problem with Modern Chareidism(tm)? The idea that you must disrespect us to justify your approach to Torah is concerning.
ReplyDeleteCan you please give the date of when she has been publicly stated by ORA that TAMAR IS FREE and the date when she married Adam Fleischer?
ReplyDeleteIn any case, Mr. Aron Friedman was not ready, willing and able to procure a Get, way before R' Dovid Eidensohn came into the picture as you can see in the following quote you demarked, even after all the pressures have been applied and all the bullets have been spent. While still in the BBD, Tamar did not follow Protocol and never returned to BBD *velo tzayes ledina*. Aron has presented his rights and conditions at BBD, and only *after that* all the chicaneries came into play. Aron had the greatest supporters Geoinm uPoskei haDor from all over the world as testified in their letters on this Blog. Therefore, the so called HETER did not come about because of R Dovid E's support. Read on:
" Mr. Aharon Friedman has been publicly humiliated by a New York organization called ORA, the organization of resolution of Agunoth,
* because he won’t give his wife a GET at this time *. Great efforts were made to have him fired. Not long ago * he was attacked and beaten in Philadelphia when he returned his daughter from Washington *. The attempted kidnapping by the hoodlums who beat him was foiled. The attackers were probably going to kidnap him and torture him * until he gave a GET *.
@** I told Aharon that he may not give a GET under pressure because a coerced GET is invalid **
(Try to establish a full date for this as when it happened.)
Furthermore, once someone threatens a husband who continues to fear them, even if they don’t beat him or humiliate him for a while, the GET is still invalid. This is because the husband still fears that they can return to their old ways at any time. Until the fear of the coercers ends, no GET may be given, until a senior Beth Din clarifies that he really wants a GET. (מוהרי”ק-ס”ג, רדב”ז-2095"
***************************************************************
So there you have it! The K's wanted a Get by hook or by crook. When that didn't happen, they went on to Plan B, without the Torah's agreement thru falsifying records, falsifying Torah and Halacha!!! That IS what brought on the so called HETER, and that is where the Buck stops.
Even when they got caught in front of the whole wide world, they still are holding on to their own. Even to this day, the paramours are living in sin due the recalcitrant rabiners.
Veod yesh lomar:
ReplyDeleteMi she'eino baki betiv gittin veKidushin lo yehe esek imahen. You must be an expert to execute such while having the 5th Shulchan Aruch kesefer psucho lefonov, leaving nothing to assumptions. You have to know how to check and doublecheck when it comes to such issues as Issur Arayos and mamzerus as well as the Halachos in and around it. RNG was contacted specifically since he is a so called Bar Samcha, an Expert on inyanei Gittin. Of what use is it if you do NOT apply your expertise to the issue at hand? If you get referrals as a top surgeon, but you do not apply the cutting edge technology no sooner will they drop you. How about a super lawyer that operates like an amateur, he is neither super nor a lawyer. Even a Shochet mumche must be bodek the Chalif constantly, and he finds the knife Pagum after schita, you must declare all schitos treif from since his last bedika of the knife. Why is this any different once he found out afterwards that the report is invalid, therefore his Heter does not apply and notify all parties concerned, no dice, all is treif!
His mumchiyus is not part and parcel of facts on the ground as to say that the Knife has a chazaka of being Chad vecholok, unless before each schita he makes a thorough bedika. What good is a so called mumche that does not check whether a Medical Report was done altogether, or whether the so called Mumche has abided by the rule of the law as mipihem velo mipi ksovom and second hand shmia rechoka. Indeed, this information has been circumvented from all the Shopee's not to sniff into it, just do as I tell you. This is like xeroxing poskim with both hands tied behind their backs having them in straight jackets without any input nor output. I cannot imagine that it did not occur RNG to ask any of these obvious questions.
Asking R' Dovid to be the Referee was only for the show of Aba heich meassrin es hateven ve'es hamelach, and even that didn't change anything.
Rabbi Eidensohn. I read your most excellent letter on
ReplyDeletehttp://torahtimes.com/attack-on-washington-dc-rabbis-who-coerce-a-get-with-humiliation/
I quote Kethuboth 77a:
Mishnah. The following are compelled to divorce [their wives]: a man who is afflicted with boils, or has a polypus, or gathers [objectionable matter] or is a coppersmith or a tanner, whether they were [in such conditions or positions] before they married or whether they arose after they had married. and concerning all these R. Meir said: although the man made a condition with her [that she acquiesces in his defects] she may nevertheless plead, I thought I could endure him [lit. to receive, accept], but now I cannot endure him. The sages, however, said: she must endure [any such person] despite her wishes, the only exception being a man afflicted with boils, because she [by her intercourse] will enervate him. It once happened at Zidon that there died [Without leaving any issue.] a tanner who had a brother [It is the duty of the surviving brother to contract the levirate marriage with the widow (v. Deut. XXV, 5ff).] who was also a tanner. The sages ruled: She [The widow] may say, I was able to endure [lit. to receive, accept] your brother but I cannot endure you.
ORA, feminists etc takes the wife’s claim I cannot endure you [lit. to receive, accept] and are ready to compel the husband to divorce---merely on her say so or merely on an obvious phony psychiatry report. In the Mishnah there is a physical problem such as boils etc hindering the woman from having sex with her husband. Mere hating with no physical problems and with no halachic problems such as Kohen to a Gerusha is never enough to compel divorce.
There is yet another way of looking at this - the idea, brought by RambaN, of naval b'reshus haTorah. That is the kind of attitude that some Hareidim have towards MO.
ReplyDeleteBut there are different sectors within MO, and similarly in Israel different Dati Leumi sectors. And there is also a pecking order - the Hardal or Chareidi end of MO look down on the liberal end.
But this also occurs in Chareidi world, so Satmar would attack Rav Aaron and Rav Moshe.
How do you know that?
ReplyDeleteI do not hear such comparisons made. Perceived deviations by other groups will be attacked, but I never hear the chareidi/ben Torah approach to life praised through comparison to others. Maybe it's different in EY, but here in the States -- nah, it is not generally done.
ReplyDeleteDate of R' Dovid Eisensohn's letter claiming to have told AF to withhold GET: Kislev 5773 or December 2012
ReplyDeleteDate of ORA's announcement: December 2013
Date of marriage to Adam (no relation!): after RDE's letter and ORA's announcement
Thus: R' Dovid's claim was made a year before announcement of heter. (And even longer before utilization of heter.)
Thus: If R' Dovid had not prevented AF from giving GET no heter would have been announced, and certainly no heter would have been utilized.
My brother did not prevent Aharon Friedman from giving a Get. He simply told him that a get given under pressure is invalid - which it is if you bothered looking up the halacha or read the many discussions on this blog.
ReplyDeleteMy brother was not the only rabbi who told Aharon Friedman that. So your premise is simply wrong and has no basis in reality - though you don't seem to have a problem with that.
Of course it is true if she received a Get that there would be no need for a heter - but your position is simply nonsense and has nothing to do with reality.
A more relevant question is why Rav Shmuel and his son decided to pervert the halacha for the sake of the daughter of a major supporter of the Philly Yeshival. Do you think Rav Shmeul or Rav Greenblatt feel guilty about arranging for a married woman to get remarried?
In short you are not criticizing the perpetrators of the abuse of halacha - why not?
Kama shailos bedovor!
ReplyDeleteDate of Tamar's refusal to return to BBD in prior of R-Dovid-E advising Aron not go ahead with a Get?
Tamar refused to child custody time sharing of daughter (date?).
From on or about 2008 till 2013 there already were about 5 or so years of no Get procurement by Ahron on his own. Actually, one year did lapse from when R Dovid E advised Aron in 2012 - till 2013 HETER year. What makes you think that R' Dovid was the clincher so as to change direction from Get to Heter. Should R' Dovid be the Makeh bePatish, why the wait of one whole year?
If R' Aron was *TOIT MESHUGAH* lemafreah from adam, how did they contemplate to perform a Get altogether, a meshugener cannot consent for a Get.
At the end of the day, you have one of the greatest oxymoron's by the greatest so called gedoilim. Either he is Meshuga or Not. How did they not know this then all along?
I therefore put it you, that THE HETER has nothing to do with R' DOVID E. It has everything to do with inventing an OTD HETER. When they couldn't find the Fountain of youth North, they made a 180 due South, and created a GOLEM uBoro a Gavra Tilse with a Sheker asher ein lo Raglayim, that talks for itself, of which they cannot undo. They attempted R Dovid Feinstein to undo the Frankenstein HETER, but the Genie is out of the Bottle ang goes on with a life of it's own.
What does RNG say to this ITIM CHALIM ITIM SHOITIM business. Isn't he a BAR SAMCHA that should know better that you cannot be Meshuga and Shfui, both at the same time. Even if only meshuga ledovor echod, he is meshuga lechol hatorah kula. and you do not need a Psyches report for that, Huh?
The million Dollar question would be:
Had R' Dovid E not advised R' Aron not to give a GET, what would R' Aron's mental state be today???
Why not ask the shnei Gedoilei haDor oso ve'es bno.
We know that AF is persona non grata in the Silver Spring shuls, until he gives a GET.
ReplyDeleteIf his wife was never married to him, why would he need to give her a GET?
Are the Silver Spring rabbis arguing on the Kaminetzky/Greenblatt heter?
No they are against a person who won't give his wife a get - even if it is not needed
ReplyDeleteRabbi Greenblatt said that to Joe Orlow and others. If he won't hang up the phone on you, he'll tell you the same thing.
ReplyDeleteOr they can't face defeat and accept that their bullying tactics did not produce that results that they wanted. They will go down with their sinking ship, but they will not accept defeat, at all costs!
ReplyDeleteEhud,
ReplyDeleteA שוטה cannot make kiddushin either. If your point was true then R' Moshe Feinstein, in the teshuva where he allows for kiddushei taus because the husband was acting crazy, should have been matir because he couldn't be mekadeish to begin with. Kiddushei taus doesn't need that the person has no daas.
Regarding your other point that who says R' Dovid was the clincher: The answer is that R' Dovid said so himself, as I quoted in my previous comment.
Do we need to assume that they're totally unreasonable as that?
ReplyDeleteyes
ReplyDeleteI fail to see why this is weird and incomprehensible. R' Moshe writes that although kiddushei taus is a subject of dispute, it may be relied upon b'shaas had'chak for an agunah who is unable to procure a get. It follows that the husband who does have a way to procure a get - simply by giving one - has no right to rely on kiddushei taus.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand why this obvious point eludes you and others on this blog.
(And please don't respond that she was never an agunah because he just wanted custody etc. etc., as that is not relevant to your question. Your question was addressing those who do hold she was an agunah.)
It is true that Rav Moshe says that a Get should be given IF possible. But...
ReplyDeleteHow is Aharon Friedman relying on the heter of kiddushei taus?!
Tamar is relying on the Heter as is Adam
Tamar is the one who announced she is free - without receiving a Get. How is she free is she needs a Get?
The more fundamental issue is that everyone says that the Heter is not valid. Why are these forces who insist on a Get l'chumra not concerned about a clear case of adultery? Why are they more outraged about a husband whose wife decided to get a heter then they are about a wife universally viewed as committing adultery? If these forces protested the adultery and ostracised Tamar and Adam - then I would agree fully with your analysis.
The only reasonable conclusion is that it is not a question of halacha but that the male is always wrong in marital disputes and that the female is always justified in doing anything to get her freedom. It is not a question of a diyuk in Rav Moshe's teshuva.
R' Daniel,
ReplyDeleteI think we are having a miscommunication. Honesty stated in the name of Rav Greenblatt that if Mr. Friedman would want to get remarried he may not rely on the heter of kiddushei taus. Honesty expressed his surprise that the heter only applies to the agunah and not to the man. I believe you would agree that my response is correct - the man may not use the heter to get remarried since R' Moshe stated explicitly that he only allows for the heter because the woman is stuck.
Honesty and I were not addressing the woman.Obviously she may remarry without a Get - that was the whole purpose of the heter!
I think you may have misunderstood what Joe Orlow quoted in the name of Rav Greenblatt in a previous comment, in response to Asher Kaufman's odd question. Or to be more precise, I think Joe Orlow mistakenly applied what he heard from RNG regarding the man, to Asher's question about the woman. This led you to believe that RNG said something that makes no sense - that the woman still needs a get.
Please reread the previous comments, I think you will agree with what I am saying.
Jewish women are not slaves such that we must remain with men who are disgusting to us. And if you insist on treating us as slaves, instead of seeking heterim for a get, we will instead refuse kiddushin. After all, we fulfill no mitzvot through marriage or childbearing. Jewish men are the ones compelled to marry and to have children. Now that she is living with another man, whether you recognize her marriage or not, her husband must discover his free will to divorce her. Trust me, abused women sadly put up endless amounts of completely unacceptable behavior for the sake of Torah -- adultery, lies, emotional abuse, physical abuse, addiction, neglect. But if you treat a Jewish woman as a slave, she will rebel because she knows in her soul that she is a bas melech. If you wish to remove the tarnish you have placed on the crown of Torah, simply treat every woman as a bas melech and then there would be no agunot. As long as there are abusive men and rabbis support their abuse and call that "marriage", Jewish women will fight for their rights to be treated as fully human. Beware lest you leave women with no options. The sword comes into the world for justice delayed and justice denied. Those of you who supported the husband brought this sword into the world and now you must live with it.
ReplyDelete1) In order for you to be taken seriously, kindly give us full and verifiable disclosure of who are. We need to be able to assess your boast. Not doing so turns your arguments into complete hypocrisy. Worse, it makes your words seem to be a game and insincere.
ReplyDelete2) You are making a pure mockery of halacha. Do you know of any case where Rav Moshe allowed the woman to remarry by saying she was never married, but said that the husband is still married in a marriage that never happened???? Rav Moshe never said that! Rav Dovid Feinstein strongly disagrees with this. No respectable talmid of Rav Moshe agrees with this. Rav Greenblatt concocted this in this case in order to defend himself and Salty K's idol.
Again, if the marriage has been publicly ruled to have never have happened, then you cannot claim that it happened for one spouse and not for the other. A "marriage" ceremony in front of two witnesses is a public ruling. You have to make up your mind.
3) The people of Silver Spring are behaving in the most hypocritical and nonsensical way. Those who think that Tamar was never married to Ahron have no excuse in trying to ostracized him. Does who realize that she is still married to Ahron and is publicly committing adultery, should busy themselves with protesting the adultery and the adulterers. They should stop bothering people who won't be bullied by them.
4) You just started a second silly blog to attack this one. You also resurrected your on-again-off-again-on-again other silly blog. It is linked in your profile. Your language and weird logic and avoidance of the real issues gives you away.
Nobody treated Tamar as a slave
ReplyDeleteYour are threatening to ignore Torah whenever it bothers you!
Your brave speech doesn't help anyone nor is it helpful
Don't know why you are bothering to comment herr
You are making a pure mockery of halacha. Do you know of any case where Rav Moshe allowed the woman to remarry by saying she was never married, but said that the husband is still married in a marriage that never happened???? Rav Moshe never said that! Rav Dovid Feinstein strongly disagrees with this. No respectable talmid of Rav Moshe agrees with this. Rav Greenblatt concocted this in this case in order to defend himself and Salty K's idol.
ReplyDeleteAgain, if the marriage has been publicly ruled to have never have happened, then you cannot claim that it happened for one spouse and not for the other. A "marriage" ceremony in front of two witnesses is a public ruling. You have to make up your mind.
So refuse kiddushin. Adios.
ReplyDelete"No respectable talmid of Rav Moshe agrees with this."
ReplyDeleteHave you taken a poll of all the respected talmidim of R' Moshe?
Also, it may be difficult for you to believe that there are actually two people who disagree with this blog, but I have no connection with the "on-again-off-again-on-again other silly blog".
You seem to be completely unfamiliar with the nature of personality disorders. This is why I have asked R' Daniel to clearly explain to his readers what they are, but thus far he has not done so. Personality disorders do not render one a shotah who is unable to give a get. Please do some research yourself since R' Daniel is not willing to do it for you.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the main thrust of my point regarding R' Dovid Eidensohn was to point out that HE believes (and quite possibly his brother as well) that the GET refusal continued because what he told Mr. Friedman. I was providing a theory as to why this blog takes the matter of the heter very personally. It does not matter who you , I or anyone else believes is responsible. It matters what the administrator of this blog and his brother believes.
It would help if you stop telling others what they really believe. I assume you are not a prophet or even zochehy to ruach hakodesh
ReplyDeleteWhy are you ignoring the point? Why do you hate tzatzikim such as Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L and all the current poskim? Why do you hate Hashem's rules and attempt to make a mockery of it?
ReplyDeleteName one talmid of Rav Moshe - excluding rabbi Greenblaat - who dared suggest that Aaron is married to Tamar, while simultaneously, at the very same moment, Tamar is not married to Aaron but is married to Adam. How dare you make such a joke out of Hashem's holy Torah! How dare you think that the whole world - including the Torah Hakedosha - is at your disposal to play with and to fool around with for your own interests. How dare you have so little respect for the continuous Nossain HaTorah! You should be ashamed of yourself.
_____
Why do I suspect that it is possible that you will refuse to show a conscience and will just not take this horrible desecration and trampling of the Torah and the honor of its Continuous Giver seriously? May Hashem have mercy on us.
Ein bodkin min hamizbeach ulmala. If Dr. Father Mr. Epstein found Ahron safe and sound for his daughter, I don't need any of your explanations of what Krispeditis entails (an ofshoot of Krispedin). The K's close to the Epstein family didn't find any faults either and all of a sudden he is Meshuge of Toit. 'Tse ubasser lasussim vachamorim'. Firstly, your usage of *GET refusal* is false just like ORA is rak RA kol hayom. It is crystal clear that Ahron was in midst of settling for a GET with only asking for his rights, and rightfully so! Even as of today, Ahron continues to be willing to procure a GET, with provisions to see his daughter. It is TAMAR that is in "SIRUV" and contempt of BD running away only to scream *KOZAK HANIGZAL*!!!
ReplyDeleteThis is what the whole ORA YSV are all about, veasidin liten olov es hadin. Not bechinam *VEHOELOKIM mevakesh et hanirdaf*, VEHOELOKIM INO LEYADO* as all these BNEI AVLO UBNEI BLIYAAL have been brought to Justice. Wait, you yet haven't heard the end of the mendele Epstein SHARYA evolution are up to MURDER for HIRE!
Never mind this blog and what his brother thinks, it is "WE THE PEOPLE" and WORLD's LEADING POSKIM that are up in arms about this SCANDAL as R' Dovid F called it. They put the responsibility of this SHARURYA squarely where it belongs to the MATIR ASSURIM'nikes, BA'ALEI EGROFIN, anoshim pochzim vereikim!!!
Your claims for PhD in common sense is Bopkes. You have none. Bottom line is, whatever your definition of BBD, BBC, OCD, COPD, NYPD, vechol shaar minei shemos hanirdofim is worthless. Just answer this point if you only can. How in the world can you waver back and forth so conveniently from GET to HETER and being MESHUGA of TOIT all in one breath, while TAMAR being FREE, but still in need of a GET, TAMAR can get married, but not Ahron. Sounds like a little bit pregnant, doesn't it?. This is not a switch of 0's and 1, (zeroes and one) being on the click of a button at will. TARTEI DESOSREI, OXYMORON, is not the word. They have been caught with a bunch of lies, their hands in the cookie jar, megale ponim baTorah Big Time, and entangled like in a fishing line with no end in sight, but still holding on and going strong as if everything is peachy keen. CROOKS bela'az! Anyone with SECHEL HAYOSHOR can see right through it.
Lechol man deboie lemeida, THE EMPEROR HAS NO CLOTHES!
My dear friend, time to throw in the towel.
Allow me to translate your response for the benefit of other readers:
ReplyDeleteNo, Honesty has not spoken to all the respected talmidim of R' Moshe. Thus, Honesty's claim that "No respectable talmid of Rav Moshe agrees with this" has no basis.
Ehud,
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately you seem resistant to doing some basic research about the nature of personality disorders. If you would, you would discover some important facts:
You would discover that people with personality disorders can come across as perfectly healthy, can be successful at work, and it may only be noticeable to those closest to them - who realize something is not right but have trouble even expressing or describing it until they see a description of these disorders and things start to click.
Rav Moshe doesn't talk about a wife who is convinced by a therapist that there is something wrong with her husband. The husband needs to have a disorder that most women would not be able to live with. That is clearly not what Tamar was faced with.
ReplyDeleteAnd even if you want to claim that Tamar was not bright enough to realize something was wrong - she didn't leave immediately after "finding out" about the alleged condition and thus failed to meet one of Rav Moshe's basic requirements.
No Adam - the burden of proof is on you
ReplyDeleteAdam, that means that the husband Aaron already refused to give the get and thereafter ORA got involved to pressure him. And only after all that did Rav Dovid Eidensohn get involved, after ORA and after the husband already refused to give a Get.
ReplyDelete1) "The husband needs to have a disorder that most women would not be able to live with. That is clearly not what Tamar was faced with."
ReplyDeleteAre most women trained in self defense? I quote:
Anyone living with a person suffering from PPD must be able to defend themselves, have a place to run to if necessary and be vigilant for signs of impending violence, advises Dr. Stuart C. Yudovsky, author of Fatal Flaws: Navigating Destructive Relationships With People With Disorders of Personality and Character (American Psychiatric Association; 2007.)
2) "And even if you want to claim that Tamar was not bright enough to realize something was wrong"
It is not a question of being bright enough - why distort what I said?
Tamar stated publicly that she knew immediately after sheva berachos that she made a big mistake. The nature of the disorder is such that it is difficult for others to recognize and understand exactly what is happening; a person just knows that something is very wrong, and will often even think that they themselves are to blame.
3) "she didn't leave immediately after "finding out" about the alleged condition and thus failed to meet one of Rav Moshe's basic requirements."
This was already answered in some of the letters you posted. As soon as she found out and BECAME CONVINCED that these conditions are incurable she did leave right away.
See Rav Abramsky's Teshuva in the back of Chazon Yechezkel on Zevachim. He allows a heter of kiddushei taus for a woman who remained with her husband for several years because she was hoping his condition in that case could be cured.
If a "respectable talmid of Rav Moshe" then they should speak up. The fact that not even one "respectable talmid of Rav Moshe" has said he agrees Tamar can remain with her paramour says quite a lot.
ReplyDeleteWhat was odd about it?
ReplyDeleteThat clearly is not applicable to Aharon Freedman. As I noted the diagnosis is simply wrong.
ReplyDeleteTamar's problem was not that she didn't know what was going on - it was simply that she thought she could do better. She carefully lists the pros and cons. Nothing in that list fits the "diagnosis" that was given
The claim that she needed to become convinced - has no halachic significance
I am glad you cited Rav Abramsky - because Rav Moshe says no such thing
Bottom line - your defense of the heter is no defense
Moe,
ReplyDeleteI explained elsewhere that my main point was not to address who is actually the cause of the Get being withheld. My point was that R' Dovid (and possibly his brother) believes that the continuation of the Get being withheld was a result of his efforts, and that this is something that should have been disclosed to the readers of this blog. Please see my original comment further down the page which begins "Dear administrator". I am being mekatzer since R' Daniel has expressed his great displeasure at my remarks and even threatened to mark my future comments about this as spam.
Adam - you are simply making things up
ReplyDeleteWhich part of my comment is made up?
ReplyDeleteMy point was that R' Dovid (and possibly his brother) believes that the continuation of the Get being withheld was a result of his efforts, and that this is something that should have been disclosed to the readers of this blog.
ReplyDeleteAs I cited in other comments, your brother writes himself that Mr. Friedman's continued withholding of a Get was because he decided your brother was right in telling him not to give a Get.
ReplyDeleteThat it should have been disclosed on this blog is obviously an opinion and can't be called made up or not made up. (And the fact that it appeared in a comment your brother made on this blog 3 years ago cannot be considered disclosure for anyone who started reading this blog within the last 3 years.)
so what is rabbi feinstein's email address ?
ReplyDelete“Kaminetsky-Greenblatt Heter: Tell your Rav or Rosh Yeshiva you are adopting the Kaminetsky approach to halacha”
ReplyDeleteThe Kaminetsky approach to halacha is under the influence of radical feminism which seeks to make rabbinic courts follow American civil courts. Tamar got a civil divorce, isn’t that enough?
The Rabbinical courts in Israel base the laws of divorce on: “She fails to please him because he finds something obnoxious about her, and he writes her a bill of divorcement, hands it to her, and sends her away from his house” (Deuteronomy 24:1). Susan Aranoff, a leading radical feminist, worked many years with Mendel Epstein, Rabbi Ralbag and Rivah and Irwin Haut and others, writes in sworn testimony 9/25/1991
“This court is respectfully advised that your deponent is very well satisfied with the American legal system, its courts, its judges and its laws, particularly in the areas of marriage, divorce and custody and maintenance of the children. It would be the height of imprudence for me to subject myself to the vagaries of the jurisprudence practiced by the Rabbinical courts in Israel, which have jurisdiction over laws of marriage and divorce and custody and maintenance. This court is advised that the rabbinical courts in Israel apply principles and rules of Jewish law regarding all such matters, including custody, which are totally at variance from those in this court and I absolutely refuse to subject myself and my children to the vagaries of that law…”
"Yagati motzosi ta'amin. I did my research, and here is what I found. Tamar complained..."
ReplyDeleteAllow me to translate for the benefit of other readers:
No, Ehud did not do any research into the nature of personality disorders, despite repeated requests to do so.
My brother was not the only rabbi who told Aharon Friedman that -ok who else, please.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, machshefa's need not apply. Then, those alleged rabiners that maneuvered husbands with Epstein's techniques, the feds took care of them and are currently rotting away in jail. Now that they upgraded to murder for hire, the feds were in it from moment one, don't even think about it, ken yovdu. VehoElokim yevakesh et hanirdaf, veino leyodo. Mensch tracht und G-t lacht! Those with imbalanced hormones, teshev ad shetalbin sa'arah. Finally, don't mix apples with oranges, Agunos are only those that we have no info whether the husband is alive she therefore remains chained. All those recalcitrant Lola's that think what Lola want's Lola gets are sarvaniyot and mechusser get. It would be a much better world if they just sit put from Adam in the first place. Pretty please, no need to reply.
ReplyDeleteBiklall mosayim, moneh (money bela'az). I gave you $200.00 kesef molei oiver lasoicher and you also get to keep the change. No need to break it up like a peddler. Nobody ever died from Krispedin, nor hindered anyones marriage, go ask ten women. When performing a shchita, no need to bisect and disect the whole beheima, severing rov two simonim will suffice. Yagaati, veod eich, vegam motzosi. Nuff said.
ReplyDeleteShould her complaints have any merit, why didn't she tell her father the Doctor right after the sheva brochos to find out what the name of this mysterious disease is called, whether it is she that is inflicted or her husband, and whether this non-tangible XXD and YYD has any cure so she can XIT immediately? Dr. Epstein had the werewithal to find out and nip it in the bud, why did she wait? Why hasn't she mentioned it at BBD? In the Court while asking for a divorce? Why didn't she use it in denying visitation rights?
I therefore put it to you, this mako umachlo asher lo kosuv baTorah, lo haya velo nivra, all concocted up, vehakol shkarim. Not even as of today, and you can go ask ten Doctors whether Krispedin is real or fiction. And Ahron can provide you a clean Bill of Health while the Dr. gets it from the horses mouth. I rest my case.
Is that you, Susan, my ex, using a username Edna st vincent??? You taught at the College of Mount Saint Vincent, your finest place to teach. Susan's 9/25/1991 sworn court papers state:
ReplyDelete“There are no institutions in Israel where I could pursue my professional career as a Professor of Economics and Business. I graduated in 1969 with a B.A. from Barnard College in Political Science and thereafter attended Columbia University and obtained my doctoral degree in the field of Political Economy in January 1984. I have considerable standing, including tenure, at KCC teaching business and economics generally. Prior to my employment with KCC, which commenced in 1991. I was employed by the College of Mount Saint Vincent as Chairperson of the Department of Economics and Business and prior to that by Hofstra University as an adjunct instructor of Political Science. I have received job offers from another institution at the present time at comparable salary and benefits.”
@David K
ReplyDeleteI replied and given you the full report where R' Sloveitchik is one of the banners of this Yeshiva. Here it is again so that you receive a RED speech bubble notifying you: =========>
*ואסור ללמוד אצל ראש הישיבה כזה וכמבואר ברמב"ם על הרב שאינו הולך בדרך טובה*
*****************
To one blogger that asked me about RSK's yeshiva has been banned. See:
Sunday, January 17, 2016
Rav Avraham Yehoshua Soloveitchik: Condemns the Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter
Update: audio recording click on link
מדברי מחאה של הגאון ר' א. י. סולובייצ'יק שליט"א
ראש ישיבת בריסק
נפל דבר בישראל
באמריקה התירו אשת איש לשוק רח"ל בלא גט -
זהו נבלה ממש
וחוץ מעצם הענין שאין רצוני ליכנס בזה שהוא באמת חמור מאוד
הרי אף במקום שצריך ליכנס להתיר עגונות ישבו רבותינו האחרונים שבעה נקיים עד שהוציא פסק
וגם בזה לא היה להם די והתנו ההיתר בהצטרפות עוד גדולים
וכאן עושים כאילו הוא דבר של מה בכך
ורשעים במחשך מעשיהם התירו ולא התירו
כאן בארץ ישראל כשרצו להתיר שני ממזרים הפכו את העולם
חובה גמורה על הרבנים וראשי הישיבות באמריקא לזעוק צעקה גדולה על זה
והרי זהו אחריות עצומה על כל המשך הדורות באמריקה כי זה פתח לכל מיני רבנציקעש שיוכלו לעשות ככל העולה על רוחם
הכל בא מהקולדז וכו'
*ואסור ללמוד אצל ראש הישיבה כזה וכמבואר ברמב"ם על הרב שאינו הולך בדרך טובה*