The Chief Rabbinate of Israel recently rejected four conversions approved by a leading rabbinic authority in the United States, drawing heavy criticism from an umbrella organization representing Orthodox religious courts across the US.
The Chief Rabbinate issued no explanations as to why the conversions of Rabbi Gedalia Dov Schwartz were rejected, sparking vehement protests by the Rabbinical Council of America last Friday.
Rabbi Schwartz, who heads the RCA’s national rabbinic court, is a prominent figure in the Modern Orthodox community.[...]
While the Rabbinate declined to explain the basis for the rejections, it should be noted that in one case, the convert’s mother, who also converted at the same rabbinic court on the same day, was accepted by the Chief Rabbinate.
On Friday the RCA issued a statement criticizing the Israeli Chief Rabbinate’s decision.
“The Rabbinical Council of America strongly objects to the latest decisions of the Chief Rabbinate of Israel’s office rejecting the endorsement of leading rabbinic figures in North America of the status of at least two converts. While we have worked assiduously with the Rabbinate in the past to assure the integrity of converts, recent missteps by its office have led to these latest decisions; we are working to reverse them.”
The RCA added that in the cases in question, the rejection of the converts also constituted a “challenge” to the decisions of one of the organization’s most respected rabbis.
“This decision by the Chief Rabbinate is especially egregious because it challenges the rulings of one of the preeminent [halakhic] authorities, Rabbi Gedalia Dov Schwartz and because it disregards the great efforts that we have made over the years, for the benefit of converts, to work with the Chief Rabbinate.” [...]
“The Chief Rabbinate issued no explanations as to why the conversions of Rabbi Gedalia Dov Schwartz were rejected, sparking vehement protests by the Rabbinical Council of America last Friday.”
ReplyDeleteHowever, today’s Jerusalem Post says:
http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/US-Orthodox-rabbinical-association-Chief-Rabbinate-behavior-a-disgrace-468646
In July, Tubul wrote, “a conversion approval by a third party who did not himself conduct the conversion and was not himself part of preparing the conversion, and similarly who is not [involved] in the inspection of the integration [of the convert] into Jewish community life and in general requires clarification.”
…
ITIM director Rabbi Seth Farber praised the RCA for its strong stance and said it highlighted “a growing shift between the rabbinate and the halachic community around the world.” He called on the chief rabbinate to immediately recognize all the certifications of Rabbi Schwartz as well as to create a new policy that will be as inclusive as possible to all converts.
…
In response, the rabbinate said: “There are no all-inclusive approvals or rejections, every case is examined on its own merits.”
Sources in the rabbinate have indicated that this opposition is being spearheaded by Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef, who does not wish to give authority to approve conversions for life-cycle purposes in Israel to any rabbi in the US, even if the case pertains to conversions and other matters originally conducted in the US.
I quote:
“If a case is too baffling for you to decide, be it a controversy over homicide, civil law, or assault—matters of dispute in your courts—you shall promptly repair to the place that the Lord your God will have chosen, and appear before the levitical priests, or the magistrate in charge at the time, and present your problem. When they have announced to you the verdict in the case, you shall carry out the verdict that is announced to you from that place that the Lord chose, observing scrupulously all their instructions to you. You shall act in accordance with the instructions given you and the ruling handed down to you; you must not deviate from the verdict that they announce to you either to the right or to the left. Should a man act presumptuously and disregard the priest charged with serving there the Lord your God, or the magistrate, that man shall die. Thus you will sweep out evil from Israel: all the people will hear and be afraid and will not act presumptuously again” (Deuteronomy 17:8-13).
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/rav-gedalia-schwartz-status-as-married.html
ReplyDeleteI was searching about his tragically laughable case in Toronto where he declared a Cohen not a cohen so that he may marry a divorcee, while his dad can get the aliyah of cohen at his simcha.
So having sucked up to the Rabbanut and causing a schism in the observant community for having done so, the RCA now gets kicked in the teeth by that same Rabbanut.
ReplyDeleteWhy is the Chareidi leadership interested in pushing this kind of brinksmanship? Over and over we see a moving of the standards to the right followed by the demand that if this new standard isn't recognized by everyone else as the universal one then the Chareidi community will dissociate from the rest of the observant population. (Not our money, mind you, that always remains kosher)
One would have no problem getting a letter from many rabbonim (including RHS ''sod haShem liYereav''') testifying to the actions of RSK.
ReplyDeleteWhy should this be different?
(Especially since he'll even write a seruv, even more serious, against non existent (FBI agents) people.)
Amazing! If you keep the standards of what is required to be a convert the same as they were for thousands of years, then you're accused of causing a schism in Jewish unity. But if you're simply focused on playing with the rules - halacha commanded by G-d - in order to preserve your dying brand, then you're the victim. Wow!
ReplyDeleteOn Thursday the RCA released yet another "new" resolution calling for the creation of marriages that will result in mamzeirim according to the majority of halachic decisers. http://www.rabbis.org/news/article.cfm?id=105863
They have released this same exact resolution 8 times in recent years.
Why have they chosen this issue on top of their issue of so many Modern Orthodox youth turning their backs on religion??
Well, one prenuptial advocate very clearly explained the reasoning to me. Since there will be so many children born from second marriages in which the first marriage was terminated through a prenuptial get, then it will be impossible to declare that so many kids are mamzeirim. But chareidi rabbis will not declare them as kosher either, so there will be a need for Modern Orthodox "rabbis." More so, it will keep these couples as members of MO shuls. He sees this as a way to preserve Modern Orthodoxy. Truly sad. Can anyone say that there's not at least a kernel of truth as to the reason the RCA has turned prenuptials into their biggest cause?
Unfortunately, the same can be said about converts. They are also seen as permanent MO members if they were converted through relaxed standards.
Your moniker is clearly ill-chosen.
ReplyDeletePlease look up the standards for what is required of a convert miyamim yamimah and you will find the current Chareidi demands for converts are in many cases new innovations that are being passed off as "the same as they were for thousands of years". And dying brand? Really? A thriving, politically powerful community that has recovered from near extinction three generations ago and now dominates the Jewish community is a dying brand?
Your moniker is clearly ill-chosen.
ReplyDeleteYour very first words. You obviously realize that you do not have a valid argument or answer, so you have to resort to personal attacks and lies. Sticking to the facts leaves you out in the cold.
Please look up the standards for what is required of a convert miyamim yamimah
Of course you do not provide sources to your lies. You cloud everything in ambiguity.
And dying brand?
Yes, modern orthodoxy is dying. It's youth are leaving in droves. A 50% attrition rate is a dying brand. That's why YU has spent millions to try and keep alive by attacking "the right."
that has recovered from near extinction three generations ago
Three generations ago is when the still undefined modern orthodoxy was born! They didn't recover from anything.
and now dominates the Jewish community is a dying brand?
LOL Is that why the RCA was forced to adhere to the Rabanuts standards? Is that why you and the RCA are now complaining?
Nice try.
He can also declare the whole parsha of Shabbat as Shishi, so he wouldn't have any problems to be oleh al haTorah at any spot.
ReplyDeleteMaybe it's just me, but I find it hard to take seriously the phrase "major Modern Orthodox posek."
ReplyDeleteThe obvious thing here is that most, if not all conversions of the recent past and not to mention the forthcoming future should automatically be viewed as suspect in light of the fact that so-called Rabbis are giving conversions to people like Ivanka Trump, who then proceeds to openly campaign with her father on the Sabbath and to dress immodestly.
ReplyDeleteIt's not unprecedented.
And if a respected Rabbi wants to call me every name in the book for saying this, then that's his prerogative. But he certainly cannot force me to participate in a quorom where the tenth person is descended from one of these so-called converts.
It is clear from what I have posted from Rav Moshe Feinstein that Ivanka Trump is a valid convert
ReplyDeleteI beleive R' Shternbuch has teshuvos where he explores the validity of a
ReplyDeleteBeis Din that fails to do due diligence regarding the sincerity of
kabolas mitzvos, the therefore the validity of the conversions performed
by such a Beis Din.
I do not know if that is a contradiction to what you have posted from Rav Moshe Feinstein as I have not read it.
I do assume that the rabbi who converted Ivanka Trump would fit R' Shternbush's definition of a Beis Din that fails to do due diligence regarding the sincerity of kabolas mitzvos.
This is the same Rabbanut that pasels Rabbi Gestetner from involving himself in matters of Gittin. They think that they are some kind of Sanhedrin or experts in the matter. Rather they are a bunch of hoodlums dressed in rabbinic garb.
ReplyDeleteThat's fine. "Major Modern Orthodox Posek" is about as controversial as "Major Chareidi Gadol not controlled by his askanim"
ReplyDeleteThis is the halacha: a convert must accept the authority of the Torah before a beis din, he must circumcise himself (or the equivalent) and he must immerse in a mikveh. If the beis din decides at that point that he was sincere, he is a Jew. If we see him driving around in a car on Shabbos a month later he is still a Jew. do you contest the halacha?
ReplyDeletethat is not the halacha
ReplyDeleteAgain Rav Moshe Feinstein disagrees with you
ReplyDeleteI have not stated an opinion of my own. You can say that Rav Moshe Feinstein disagrees with Rav Shternbuch. It's hard to fault the Rabbinate or anyone else for erring on the side of caution when it comes to the yichus of klal yisroel.
ReplyDeleteWhere did I err?
ReplyDeleteThey can also set up Ezra Towns (ET) and intermarry Etrogim with each other.
ReplyDeleteAs Rabbi Eidensohn pointed out, it is not the halacha.
ReplyDeleteWhy did you make yet another assertion without exact sources?
And even according to your false assertion, people who play fast and loose with halacha are not defined as a beis din!
If in fact the convert never kept any mitzvos after conversion and it is obvious he was not sincere - then he is not a convert- even though the beis din had mistakenly though he was sincere.
ReplyDeleteIf beis din thinks he was sincere even though he is not keeping all the mitzvos for various reasons - he is still a convert
the rabbinate did not give an explanation and did not say they were erring on the side of caution
ReplyDeleteUm, that's exactly what I said. I'll quote myself:
ReplyDelete" If the beis din decides at that point that he was sincere,"
So again, where did I err?
There are two situations where the beis din thought he was sincere and he ends up sinning
ReplyDelete1) where it is obvious that he never meant to keep any mitzvos from the beginning - he is not a ger
2) where he was in fact sincere but for various reasons he thought it was ok - he is still a ger
Dress immodest yes, campaign on shabbos in a chillul shabbos way not so fast. If this is so, why did she wait until Sat night to leave Ireland when her dad and all his people left on shabbos on their own jet? You have to admit that there is some kind of shmirat hamitzvot on her part. Perhaps not up to snuff, but there is....
ReplyDeleteThere is a third situation - where he managed to convince the beis din he was sincere, they accepted that and converted him and some time afterward he revealed his true feelings. According to many opinions we are still stuck with him.
ReplyDeleteBut all this deviates from Honesty's misleading post. The idea that current Chareidi standards for geirus are the true, time-honoured standards that have always been universally accepted and practiced throughout history is dishonest.
Let's not beat around the bush...
ReplyDeleteWas there really ever any expectation on the part of the "Rabbi" who converted her that she would hold true?
Judaism is not a reproductive strategy. We cannot allow senile Rabbis the discretion of deciding who is or who isn't a Jew.
When I was in Yeshiva, there was a certain bochur whos mother wasn't Jewish. The boy was obviously very much into Judaism and no one had a shred of doubt that he would grow up to be a perfect Jew. On the other hand, the "Rav" didn't like him, and it didn't help that he had a few odd habits which were completely innocent in my view for someone his age.
The "Rav" totally destroyed this boy's future and ruled him not a Jew (as opposed to his younger brother, who was born after the mother undertook a more 'proper' conversion'), when he could have just encouraged him to undergo a small procedure for a convert whos status is in doubt (pin prick circumcision, etc...).
This same "Rav", now well into his old age and quite senile, just converted a woman who immediately afterwards, after marrying a Jew, declared her intent to impregante herself with another man's seed, after finding out that her husband was sterile.
Use your own discretion people. Gone are the days where we used to place our faith in our Rabbis. It's all about reproductive strategy and nepotism now for those in power, and to heck with the rest of us.
In truth, all you need are 3 hedyotot to oversee a geirus. If a ger is subsequently observant, there's no conceivable reason to retroactively pasul their geirus on the grounds that the converting beit din ends up producing converts who may stop observing mitzvos bein adam l'Makom down the line. Even a ger who reverts to avodah zarah has a din of Mumar and not goy. This is a political issue, not a halakhic one, and one that is sadly being fought on the backs of converts. Those with an ishur from R' GDS in America will have no problem being accepted in the institutions of Modern and Centrist Orthodoxy here.
ReplyDeleteIn support of your contention you just have to go back a few years when Tropper was leading the bandwagon of geirus in the chareidi world and his main program was to seek out intermarried couples and convert the non-Jewish spouse.
ReplyDeleteAnd I remember the major effort you put up to expose his schemes. Kol hakavod. It's actually what led me to your blog.
ReplyDeleteI am told by people who know her that she faithfully observes Shabbos and kashrus. As for immodest dress, I'm not in favor, but she is in line with the stream of Orthodoxy she has entered.
ReplyDeleteOf course the rejected his conversions: Gedalia Schwartz is senile and was borderline Megaleh Panim Batirah even when sentient
ReplyDeleteYou don't need to take the phrase seriously. It's just a newspaper headline. What to you do need to take seriously is that R Schwartz has a longstanding and well deserved reputation, in all quarters, as a huge talmid chacham and erlicher yid whose decisions can be relied on. Regardless of any box a newspaper decide to put him in.
ReplyDeleteAgree.
ReplyDeleteThere's a difference between a Jew who is a pagan, and a Jew who's secular.
ReplyDeleteA Jew who grew up with religion and for whatever reason, not necessarily through any fault of his own abandoned Judaism and adopted worship of the State is a Pagan.
A Jew who grew up without religion but has the traditional belief in G-D, and the only reason he doesn't practice Torah Judaism is because he didn't grow up in a religious environment is not a Pagan.
Ivanka Trump grew up as a Christian, which is at best, for a Gentile, a form of "associative worship" (According to the Rambam - "Shituf"), which is permitted for a Gentile but forbidden for a Jew.
Now, per this Rabbi's instruction, she attended a Jewish seminary for a while where she undertook a strict regimen of observance, and now that she has been converted, she has reverted not back to Secularism, but back to Paganism.
Finally, we now have precedent from the Rabbinate in Israel that proves that there is indeed corruption at least with regard to conversions in some of the Jewish judiciaries (and we already know that this is prevalent in cases of divorce).
So, do we now give this Rabbi who converted her the benefit of the doubt and claim that he did so with pure intentions, or do we claim that the corruption has existed a lot longer than we would initially assume?
I choose the latter.
you talk about paganism - but your analysis has nothing to do with halacha or Torah -
ReplyDeleteYou keep repeating the logical fallacy of argumentum ad infinitum.
ReplyDeletePlease stick to the topic -- is there precedent for rejecting converts based on the statement of the Israeli Rabbinate?
Can you be specific about which current Chareidi standards of conversion are new inventions?
ReplyDeleteTropper was proselytizing - and obvious deviation of Torah-true Judaism - and was covering it up with his other "hiddurim."
Harav Schwartz shlita finished shas many times. He is a nephew of the Chofetz Chaim through marriage. He comes from NJ originally. He is a talmid of Dr. Revel
ReplyDeletezatzal.
Even to make someone an 'ex-Cohen' and casually undo more than one marriage without a get.....
ReplyDeleteIf a "stream" of orthodoxy or stream of anything violates halacha that does not provide a license for a gentile to "convert" to Judaism with the expectation to also violate such halachas.
ReplyDeleteShituf is forbidden for gentiles.
ReplyDeleteIf a potential Ger intended at the time of their purported conversion to keep 612 mitzvos but one mitzvah they would not keep, the purported conversion, even if underwent the mikva and all other ritual requirements, is invalid.
ReplyDeleteWhat have you posted from Rav Moshe on this?
ReplyDeleteRDE, how do you see Ivanka's conversion differently than the conversions performed by Trooper and the EJF that the Badatz condemned?
ReplyDeleteR. Schwartz isn't accepted across the board by all segments of Orthodoxy.
ReplyDeleteChareidi is simply the continuation of Torah Judaism starting with Moshe Rabbeinu on Har Sinai. Previous names were Orthodoxy, Rabbinic Judaism, Pharisees, etc.
ReplyDeleteIf he lied to the beis din about his sincerity and really intended in advance to violate even one mitzvah after his ritual "conversion", even if the beis din mistakenly believed his assertions to the contrary, his conversion was never valid. And if this was only determined after the ritual conversion and mikva completed, the invalidity can later be determined and declared.
ReplyDeleteI will say this, her choice of immodest clothing alarms me. I keep hearing that she is Orthodox and see all kinds of fashion choices that just can't possibly qualify.
ReplyDeleteOh my goodness that is funny.
ReplyDeleteGot it. And side note, I know nothing about Rabbi Schwartz so I didn't intend to infer anything negative about him. I'm surprised to have never heard of him before since I thought I knew the MO royalty pretty well.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Soloveitchik never called himself Modern Orthodox either.
not so according to Rav Moshe Feinstein
ReplyDeletethat is what chareidim claim
ReplyDeletelook for the post about Ivanka Trump. I posted it in the comments section
ReplyDeletenot according to Rav Moshe Feinstein
ReplyDeletesource?
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe Feinstein disagrees with you
ReplyDeletecorruption regarding who is accepted exists in Chareidi beis dins - even major ones
ReplyDeletemachlokes
ReplyDeleteAmong Christians, Catholics practice shituf. Not most Protestants.
ReplyDeleteNoda B'Yehuda YD 148 (end) and Rambam Sefer HaMitzvos Aseh 7.
ReplyDeleteRDE, how else do you explain the psak (supported by Rav Elyashev) by Rav Sherman shlita invalidating the conversions of R. Druckman?
ReplyDeleteplease present the details and then we can talk about it.
ReplyDeletelast time I checked it was a machlokes haposkim
ReplyDeleteI thought you covered Rav Sherman's psak on R. Druckman's conversions extensively years ago. In a nutshell, R. Druckman's converts, for the most part, didn't keep halachas even right after undergoing their ritual conversion ceremony.
ReplyDeleteI took a look at your olds post and don't see your quote from Rav Moshe as being relevant to the particulars of the cases we're discussing here.
ReplyDeletewhy not?
ReplyDeleteIf a Catholic priest decided to infiltrate the Jewish people by undergoing a Geirus and pretending to become a Jew by fooling a beis din into converting him, and he successfully does so, he is halachicly a Jew despite believing in Jesus even though he told beis din he accepts the mitzvos and underwent the mikvah, etc.?
ReplyDeleteAs I noted before if it is clear that the convert had no intention of keeping mitzvos - as shown that right after conversion he didn't keep anything - he is not a valid convert.
ReplyDelete'Rav Moshe is talking about a different issues. If the convert was in fact sincere but that he thought that the beis din was telling him chumros - because he knows religious Jews who are not careful about observance - then he is considered to be acting out of ignorance and he is a valid convert
see my latest post
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/09/rav-moshe-feinstein-validating.html
you don't need a priest. If you have a Russian immigrant in the Israeli army who converts for various benefits and he lies about wanting to be Jewish or a non-Jew interested in marrying a Jewish woman.
How do you ascertain that they lied? What if they never confess or even if they confess after leading an observant life for 5 years?
Strange comment. If their actions have some plausible justification, who cares what they said?
ReplyDeleteapparently not all of them!
ReplyDeleteI am afraid so, because d'vorim sheb'lev ainon devorim...
ReplyDeleteThe older I get, the more that means just about everything to me. Reb Moshe said what? OK, end of story.
ReplyDeleteIt‘s a step worse than Tropper.
ReplyDeleteCorruption is not a standard or an admitted policy.
ReplyDeleteIt isn't by the Modern Orthodox either
ReplyDeleteBottom line - what do you think differentiates a Modern Orthodox and a Chareidi beis din regareding geirus?
Rav Moshe said he had nothing to do with conversions because the success rate was so low - and that is referring to chareidi beis din
Disagree I think Tropper's approach was worse
ReplyDeletewhat was the plausible justification?
ReplyDeletePresbyterians have a form of shituf trinity.
ReplyDeleteHaving said that, she (and her father) were never much into her father's church anyway. At most, it was stereotypical 'minhag avoteihem beYadehem' following their meager religious education. She was never much into church growing up.
RDE, you haven't explained why you think the EJF conversions were any worse than Ivanka's.
ReplyDeleteLet's talk about specific people. You covered the case where RGDS played fast and loose with the halacha in order to sanction a Cohen marrying divorcee. Any particular rabbi that blames his playing with halacha on his ideology, should have his conversions considered suspect. Do you feel that he would only play with halacha in regard to marriages and annulments, but would always be straight when it comes to conversions? Were thses conversions that were rejected for marriage?
ReplyDeleteThere are many Modern Orthodox rabbis who believe in playing with halacha and blame it on ideology. There are also many who don't. A system does have to be set up in order to tell the difference between these two types.
Why?
ReplyDeleteHe was trying to "save" them after they did it. He did not sanction dating a gentile. Allowing conversions for the sake of marriage seems to open the field to date anyone, as they can always convert.
As you said, Trump is considered a valid convert.
Knowing that the intermarriage will be accepted for conversion is equivalent to saying there is no problem with dating and marrying a non-Jew
ReplyDeleteI heard that it isn't hard to find a charedi rav/beis din to allow the marriage of a cohen to a divorcee. Not sure they do it for ideological reasons or financial ones. Not sure there is any difference between Modern Orthodox and Chareidim is this regard
ReplyDeleteKnowing that the intermarriage will be accepted for conversion is equivalent to saying there is no problem with dating and marrying a non-Jew
ReplyDeleteConverting for the sake of marriage - doesn't involve sin first that is solved by conversion
Actually, I once saw a book with the title, "Who Are the Chareidim?", when the real title should be, "Who Are We?" (them)...
ReplyDeleteAt least we agree that it wasn't the Modern Orthodox. .....
ReplyDeleteTo clarify, you think the Catholic priest who fooled the beis din into "converting" him, despite his insincerity, actually became a Jew?
ReplyDeleteis there any halachic basis that would allow a kula. for a Cohen to marry a divorcee?
ReplyDeleteWill they openly admit to it, or they would try to hush-hush it the way the Greenblatt, Kaminetzky, Epstein and Fliesher fiasco was done? Will the wedding take place in their community, or will it take place quietly in some secret location? There's still a difference.
ReplyDeleteThere's definitely a huge problem with corrupt botei din and hashgachos. I wouldn't trust a conversion done by any corrupt person.
RDE, you could similarly day that knowing that dating a non-Jew will be accepted for conversion is equivalent to saying there is no problem with dating a non-Jew, as you can simply find a Rabbi to convert her before the wedding.
ReplyDeleteThe even greater difference is "geirus" in Religious Zionist/DL beis dins, where they do political conversions to make gentiles with no interest in Judaism declared to be Jews for their nationalistic goals of having a State that can claim is more Jewish that it is in reality.
ReplyDeletewhy do chareidi rabbis in America convert people for the sake of marriage? Why did they do it when Rav Moshe Feinstein refused?
ReplyDeleteThere is no sin involved as opposed to marrying and living with a non-Jew who will then be converted later.
ReplyDeleteWhat evidence can you share demonstrating that Chareidi rabbis do what you ascribe to them, i.e. conversions for the purpose of marriage? Do you have evidence of that?
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe's Teshuva - you should read it
ReplyDeleteWhere does Rav Moshe's teshuva indicate he's referring to Chareidi rabbis as opposed to Orthodox rabbis who aren't Chareidi?
ReplyDeleteAre you saying that since the crime rate is that bad, therefore we should stop policing? There is still a huge difference between paying at least lip service to proper standards in conversions than those who advocate loose standards in the name of "compassion."
ReplyDeletemy point is that there are problems dealing with conversions. Rav Moshe's approach was simply not to do conversions. Other's severely limit conversion or place additions stringencies to reduce the amount of problematic conversions.
ReplyDeleteThe question is whether there should be uniform standards that are enforced by some organization or whether each rabbi can decide on his own whether to convert someone?
If a convert is accepted in America by a large recognized rabbinic organization - should it be assumed that the convert should be accepted world wide?
There are problems which need to be addressed
Rav Moshe's approach seems to be the safest.
ReplyDeletePutting a single person or organization in charge will lead to corruption.
Allowing individual rabbis to do as they see fit will lead to individual rabbis becoming big, and therefore eventually corrupt, through their power.
This same large rabbinic organization has taken on as their primary cause an idea that will cause thousands of mamzeirim - according to many poskim. Can we force other rabbis to recognize these kids as kesheirim?
Protestantism is also shituf because they believe in the trinity.
ReplyDeleteAn argument can be made that Unitarian Christians don't practice shituf but the problem with them is that it is a very antisemitic cult denomination.
Care to elaborate?
ReplyDeleteShituf is by its definition permissible for Gentiles but forbidden for Jews. Idol Worship is forbidden to Gentiles, but Shituf, when practiced by Gentiles, isn't idol worship.
RMF only declined to do gerut personally, not that he opposed it generally.
ReplyDeleteDid he decline to do chuppah veKiddushin for such a couple?
(Come to think about it, i know two children of a giyoret in MTJ (and i suspect the mother originally converted for marriage, but is still committed to her judaism, even though she had an opportunity to renounce it, too complicated fora blog.)
sounds like he was opposed to it in general when it was for the sake of marriage
ReplyDeleteSo Rav Moshe is opposed to the Ivanka conversion.
ReplyDeleteHe clearly says that it is not prohibited but that because of the low success rate he will not personally convert someone for marriage.
ReplyDeleteSo he is not opposed - he doesn't want to be involved
certainly by the Rambam, perhaps the Meiri was more lenient
ReplyDeletewhat do you think differentiates a Modern Orthodox and a Chareidi beis din regareding geirus?
ReplyDeleteWhat the requirements and standards are, even if it's just on paper. The MO are happy to accept as many questionable converts as possible, all in the name of compassion and the lowering of standards. Corrupt and incompetent Chareidi botei din may be doing the same thing - but it is due to incompetence and corruption, and not because they rewrote the rules.
There are clearly some MO rabbis who are very careful when it comes to conversions.
If memory serves, there was a case in Yugoslavia back when it was part of the Ottoman Empire where a Muslim wanting to marry a Jewish woman (when did we drop "Jewess") converted through the local Beis Din. According to the report, he openly told his friends it was all just so he could make his bride's mother happy, and apparently he went straight from the mikveh to his mosque to prove to his compatriots that he considered himself still Muslim but when the local posek was asked he maintained that since the Beis Din accepted him as sincere at the moment of conversion, he was to be considered a Jew.
ReplyDeleteThe halachic sources I provided below state shituf is considered to be Avoda Zora even when practiced by goyim.
ReplyDeleteYou'll have to provide sources/documentation as to the accuracy of what your memory recalls, as the story line you've told it is very specious and unlikely.
ReplyDeleteThe conversion case of R. Schwartz that Israel rejected was NOT a conversion done by R. Schwartz, but rather a conversion done many years ago but someone else that R. Schwartz certified as valid for the Israeli rabbinite. That is what was rejected.
ReplyDeleteAbove you said that Rav Moshe "was opposed to it in general" since it was "for the sake of marriage."
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/09/invalidating-conversion-that-was-not.html
ReplyDeletehe also said it wasn't prohibited and said since there were many rabbis who did such the writer should decide whether to do it based on his own evaluation as well as how pressing it was to convert.
ReplyDeleteCan you please re-post them, my good man?
ReplyDeleteI looked through the thread, but I can't see them.
Thanks and Ksiva Vachasima Tova.
Noda B'Yehuda YD 148 (end) and Rambam Sefer HaMitzvos Aseh 7.
ReplyDeleteThanks
ReplyDeletePerhaps yes,
ReplyDeleteThat idea goes against normative psak halacha on this question.
ReplyDeleteCan you kindly send me some links. ..food for thought. .?
ReplyDeletewhats your point??????????
ReplyDelete