I am having trouble understanding the use of ervah in this quote from Shir HaShirim Rabbah. Does it simply mean that which is normally covered without any connotation of sexuality? A similar use is found in divorce. A man can divorce his wife if he finds ervas davar? That means he finds something about her which is irritating or problematic. Not necessarily related to sexuality.
What is this medrash saying?
Shir HaShirim Rabba[1](1:19): Just as water covers the nakedness (ervah) of the sea as it says, As the waters cover the sea (Yeshaya 11:9), so the Torah covers the nakedness (ervah) of Israel, as it says, Love covers all transgressions (Mishlei 10:12).
[1] שיר השירים רבה (א:ג):
ומה מים מכסים ערותו של ים שנא' (ישעיה יא:ט)
כמים לים מכסה כך תורה מכסים ערותן של ישראל שנאמר (משלי י:יב) ועל כל פשעים תכסה אהבה,
nakedness implies without mitzvoth , it mentions transgressions, could be our limitations, what we are lacking
ReplyDeleteI thin you are taking things too literally, which was never the case , especially in midrashim. It is one of those statments in both Holy and secular language of a metaphor - e.g. the naked eye (when looking at the sun) has nothing to do with nakedness, or the 4 corners of the globe, which is an oxymoron.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, certain things are toevah, but even deviant homosexual behaviour is toevah, but that is not exclusive, it might refer to abominable foods.
At a more fundamental level, the Midrash is mixing and matching 2 separate verses. the verse in Yeshaya does not use the term "ervah",
So the Midash is bringing a concept - or "extracting" a concept from these particular verses. Since it is not the plain literal reading of the verses, likewise there is no requirement for the plain literal meaning of ervah.
Hirsch speaks about the difference between דבר ערווה and ערות דבר which implies anything that interferes with the continuation of a marriage - the dictionary talks about חרפה - shame
ReplyDeleteThe "sea" is the "sea basin." It is unseemly to have the basin of the sea laid bare.
ReplyDeletewhat does unseemly mean? In appropriate? So explain the whole medrash. Just as it is inappropriate for people to see the seabed - it is in appropriate to see Jews sin and therefore in both cases we need to conceal the reality?!
ReplyDeleteso why the comparison?
ReplyDeleteso why cover it up?
ReplyDeleteErvah can mean a secret or a vulnerability. Yosef accused his brothers of coming to reveal "ervas ha'aretz." Giluy ervah means revealing a secret/exposing a vulnerability. This can be understood with the following mashal: If someone has a deep secret, if he shares it with someone that he is very close with, the exposing of his vulnerability will strengthen their bond. But if he shares the same secret with an ordinary acquaintance, the exposing of this vulnerability will destroy their relationship. Hence, sexual relations in the correct context will strengthen a relationship, while the same act in the wrong context will be destructive. So if you understand ervah as "secret/ hidden/vulnerable areas," it may give better understanding to the midrash.
ReplyDeleteit is in appropriate to see Jews sin and therefore in both cases we need to conceal the reality?!
ReplyDeleteWithout seeing the greater context of the Midrash, can it possibly be saying that our observance of G-d's Torah causes Him to cover over our sins (in our relationship with Him). That would seem to flow well with the posuk brought as proof.
See Breishis 1:9,10
ReplyDeleteyikovu hamayim ... *veseroeh* hayabasha
-ulemikveh hamayim- koro *yamim* = basin named yam(im), kamayim layam mechasim = the water covers the basin or it's vulnerability to be able to see
Breishis 42:9
Meraglim atem liros es ervas ho'oretz bo'osem see Rashi:
galui ha'aretz meheichan hi noche likovesh vechen kol ervah shebemikrah lashon gilui.
Having that - kamayim = like water - layam mechassim= mikveh mayaim = basin
mechassim ervoso shel yam of which is the Basin
The Torah the love of Israel, covers for Israel's sins
A man can divorce for any reason at all, min HaTorah.
ReplyDeletewhy is the Torah viewed as a cover up of sin? That means the sins are real but they are concealed. What is so great about that?
ReplyDeleteagree with what you wrote - but how to connect with a cover up of sins by the Torah?
ReplyDeleteErva in the broadest sense means vulnerability, not necessarily sexual. When certain portions of the body are uncovered, a person feels shame and vulnerable. Ervas davar = From husband's perspective, wife posseses a shameful trait that makes her vulnerable. Ervas ha'aretz = spies come to Mitzrayim to search the land's weaknesses and vulnerabilities. The sea bed is not pretty. The sea covers the sea bed's ugliness and vuknerability. The erva vulnerability of Yisrael is their sins.
ReplyDeleteIt could mean that when Bnei Yisroel learn Torah, then Hashem overlooks their other faults.
ReplyDeleteWe are both physical and spiritual beings. We wear clothes to hide our vulnerable physical reality and emphasize our spirituality. The water hides the unseemly reality of the seabed and emphasizes the beautiful expanse of the surface of the sea. Torah hides our unseemly real sins and weaknesses, and emphasizes our nobility. Yes, honesty is not always the best policy, so we conceal reality.
ReplyDeletePlease allow me to offer my understanding of the Midrash, which of course everyone is free to reject." ערותן של ישראל " in this context simply means physical flaws, blemishes and/or personality quirks. This would be as the posuk writes, " לא. כי ערות הארץ באתם לראות", when Yoisaif in his guise as the harsh ruler of Egypt accuses his brothers of espionage whose motives were to seek out whatever weaknesses in the defenses of the land that might be exploited in an invasion.
ReplyDeleteThe analogy presented in the Midrash , ומה מים מכסים ערותו של ים , just as water covers the sea, means to refer to the fact that the surface of the ocean appears relatively smooth because the water conceals the ridges and the valleys and the rocky terrain of the sea bed., so too, does the Torah mask the imperfections of Yisroel ( meaning those who are immersed in the study of Torah) as it is written, "ועל כל פשעים תכסה אהבה " , "but love covers all transgressions", This means that the Torah will protect the Tzaddik from his own personal failings. If a great Sage of Torah has a tendency toward losing his temper, a personality flaw that would cast the Torah in a negative light, the Torah will allow the righteous man to avoid conflicts where his irascibility might rise to the surface.
We ignore a giant mole on the forehead of a Talmid Chochem; it is a physical blemish that should not detract from his greatness. Likewise, even a Tzaddik might sometimes fail to fulfill all the obligations detailed in the Mesilas Yehoorim. such as זהירות, זריזות, נקיות, פרישות and the like, which to a tzaddik is a character flaw so great that it is considered a פשע , a virtual transgression, if you will. It is these "transgressions" that The Torah masks out of love for Yisroel.
To my understanding, the Midrash is not suggesting that Bnei Torah are immune from criticism or that we are to ignore wilful destructive and sinful behavior by those who occupy a position that lays claim to Torah authority. On the contrary, we are adjured to expose hypocrisy and sin regardless of whether these acts are committed in public or in private, lest others may learn to incorporate such behavior as a requisite for proper Torah life. ,
is a woman's voice vulnerability?! Is the knee or elbow vulnerability. Do women feel shamed and embarrassed inherently - or is it the result of training?. Don't understand what you are saying about ervas davar. It is something the husband doesn't seriously doesn't like. How does that make it a shameful trait?
ReplyDeletewhy is the Torah concerned about the physical blemishes of the cohanim?
ReplyDeleteSo a talmid chachom is allowed to sin because the Torah covers up those sins? As long as gets the right pshat in the gemora he is fine?!
ReplyDeleteCertainly not. As with many ma'amarai Chazal, they are meant to make a point and usually work in tandem with other ma'amerei Chazal and are not always meant to be taken through to their apparent conclusion.
ReplyDeleteThe gemara says that a Talmid Chochom has to be an achzar on his children like a raven. Does that mean that he should be a complete achzar all the time? The gemara is making a point that you take and use your head to apply it to the correct situation.
Here as well, obviously a Talmid Chochom cannot act wantonly to his heart's desire and fix it by studying Torah. The midrash is making a point that, to some degree, when Klal Yisroel learns or keeps the Torah, this goes a great distance in covering up some faults that they may have.
And right pshat has nothing to do with it. You get rewarded for learning even if you come up with wrong pshat.
We are trained to feel shame and vulnerability regarding our bodies and a woman's voice, Ervas davar: The husband seriously doesn't like her trait and considers it shameful. Yes, a lot of this is subjective.
ReplyDeleteWhat you said reminds me of the story with the Vilna Gaon and the maskil.
ReplyDeleteTo impress upon us that serving Hashem is beautiful
ReplyDeleteWe must distinguish עבודה in the Bais Hamikdash from the other pillars that support the world, Torah and Gemilas Chassudim. The disqualification of a Kohaim because of a "Mum" might be similar to unacceptable sacrifice of an animal with a "mum". There are nonetheless services that may be performed by Kohanuim, regardless of their physical attractiveness. For example, the baking of Lechem Haponim and Menochos might be accomplished by Baalay Mumin. If you will argue that these activities do not necessarily require Kehunah, then I might cite the consumption of the holiest of holy sacrifices, חטאת ואשם , which any male Kohain is eligible to perform, even if he is a Baal Mum.
ReplyDeleteIn any event it is difficult to draw analogies from the Bais Hamikdosh, because so much of the rules must be considered as חוקים , which to us might seem arbitrary. For example, a "mum" is what Hashem details as a "mum, not what we might consider unattractive. A "unibrow" is listed as a disqualification but crossed eyes is not.
But I think that the qualification for service in the Bais hamikdah is in any event not germane to the subject at hand.
Of course he's not allowed to sin just as lovers are not allowed to sin against one another, but a strong loving connection will cause one to overlook those sins to some degree.
ReplyDeleteעל כל פשעים תכסה אהבה
The trend today is to allow such cohanim to duchen bless the people anyway. (IM shaylah from rav meir kahane hy"d)
ReplyDeleteWell we do know that Torah is the way to proper teshuva. As the story with r yochonon, when he went to shamaim, his Torah came, wrapped itself around him, and protected him. That's how torah can cover our sins.
ReplyDeleteAlso erva I believe means nakedness. In the gemara berachos, there are pesukim that call kol isha and tefach erva, so it's more a g'zeiras hakasuv than sevara.
and which side am I on?
ReplyDeletethe moshul is the seabed being covered by the sea. The nimshal, is how Torah covers our sins. There is no need to have an exact analogy. even the idea of "covering" is used loosely, it means the Torah will cover for us, will protect us, either from the sins we have committed or from committing them in future if we adhere to Torah.
ReplyDeleteMishlei uses lot of moshuls (hence its name). e.g. the idea of seeking wisdom like we seek silver or gold. The only aspect that is important is that we strive hard and dig deep for Torah. It is not a currency or something we can use to buy ourselves nice items with. The worldly gain of silver is not the same as the worldly gain of Torah.
As often we find, chazal draw a parallel between moral and natural law - the point being made by this.midrash. Whatever needs to be covered is called erva.
ReplyDeleteThat's only because the word *כִּי* in
ReplyDeleteדברים פרק כד א
כִּֽי־יִקַּ֥ח אִ֛ישׁ אִשָּׁ֖ה וּבְעָלָ֑הּ וְהָיָ֞ה אִם־לֹ֧א תִמְצָא־חֵ֣ן בְּעֵינָ֗יו כִּי־מָ֤צָא בָהּ֙ עֶרְוַ֣ת דָּבָ֔ר וְכָ֨תַב לָ֜הּ סֵ֤פֶר כְּרִיתֻת֙ וְנָתַ֣ן בְּיָדָ֔הּ וְשִׁלְּחָ֖הּ מִבֵּיתֽוֹ׃
is read as *אוֹ*.
Or, because *דָּבָ֔ר* is interpreted as independent of *עֶרְוַ֣ת*.
See Gittin 90a.
In that discussion ערוה specifically excludes anything other than איסור אשת איש.
Covers is not the same as cover up or conceals. *Covers* is in the context of takes care and heals the pshaim, sins of sinaa bein odom lechavero through promoting Ahava. The Torah brings the subjects together to make ammends by promoting Ahava. Just like the waters cover the basin, so does Torah cover for the shande of hate amongst each other by promoting *love* for one another. kmo shene'emar Sholom rov leohavei torasecha
ReplyDeleteTake a wild guess. . .
ReplyDeleteA possible explanation:
ReplyDeleteRabbeynu Yonah writes in Shaarey Tshuvah that sometimes a person repents enough to avoid punishment, but not enough for Hashem to love him as much as before the sin. The Medrash is telling us that learning Torah will help the person get back to his previous standing with Hashem.
As for the ervah of the sea, I think John Halmark did a great job.
I think the other commenters have made this point, I'm just giving my take on it.
ReplyDelete"Erva" means "vulnerability". Thus covering the Erva means protecting the vulnerability; making that which was vulnerable invulnerable.
A woman's voice is Erva, because by her singing and a man hearing, he is enticed to deduce and take her. Thus, singing exposes her to attack, that is, she increases her vulnerability.
The sea bed is rich in natural resources and is exposed to easy possibility to strip mine it were it not protected by water.
We're it not for the Torah, the Jew would be ravished and violated by the Yetzer Hara. An unlearned Jew is vulnerable to attack by the Yetzer Hara, who perceives an opening to twist the Jew's behavior in order to reap the benefits. The Jew learns Torah and gains a shield to repel the arguments that the Yetzer Hara is shooting and stabbing him. The Yetzer Hara seeks to weaken the Jew and increase the Jew's vulnerability, but the Jew takes Torah, which is compared to water, and covers himself.
And so on.
Perhaps that the Torah and the lifestyle serve to protect us from the immediate effect of our wrongdoings.
ReplyDeleteOur strong family life, and healthy communal ties, and strong educational structures hold the family together when there is a member who is weak, stumbling, or sinning. We are protected by those in our communities who are strong.
Interesting explanation of kol isha - have never seen anyone explain that way. Do you have any source? Normally it means that it makes the man vulnerable to sexual arousal. Ervah is the man's vulnerability to the yetzer harah - not the woman's.
ReplyDeleteSo perhaps it mean - just like the water covers the sea bed which entices - the Torah protects against the enticements of the yetzer harah
Rashi in Breyshis on Ervas Haaretz, Rabbeynu Yonah in Sherashim, Radak
ReplyDeletein Sherashim, all say ערוה means גלוי [bare, revealed, uncovered]. Malbim
in Yeshaya 3, 17 agrees as far as ערה, and adds that ערוה means bareness
in a place that it is a גנאי [shame, disgrace] to be bared.
“Hatred stirs up strife, But love covers up all faults.” (Proverbs 10:12)
ReplyDeleteמשלי פרק י פסוק יב
שִׂנְאָה תְּעוֹרֵר מְדָנִים וְעַל כָּל פְּשָׁעִים תְּכַסֶּה אַהֲבָה:
רש"י משלי פרק י פסוק יב
(ועל כל פשעים תכסה אהבה - כשישראל מטיבים מעשיהם הקדוש ברוך הוא מכסה על פשעיהם):
מלבי"ם משלי פרק י פסוק יב
(יב) שנאה תעורר מדנים, יש הבדל בין ריב ומדון, ריב הוא פעולת הריב שמתקוטטים זה עם זה ויהיה לפעמים על לא דבר, והדבר שבעבורו מתקוטטים נקרא בשם המופשט מריבה, ואם סבת הריב היא דברי ממון או אונאה שבעבורם י"ל דין אצל השופט נקרא מדון, ופי' מדון הדבר שדנים בעבורו, והוא דבר בלתי מבורר עם מי הצדק, כי בדבר המבורר יפול עליו שם פשיעה בגידה משפט וכדומה כ"א כפי ענינו, אמר החכם, דע שסבת המדנים האלה אינם הנדון בעצמו רק ההתפעליות אשר בנפש הנדונים, שהאוהבים או אנשים שאין להם שנאה זה עם זה לא יקפידו על דברים קטנים כמו נזקי שכנים וכדומה, רק הפעליות השנאה היא תעורר את המדנים, שע"י השנאה הם צרי עין עוינים זה את זה, ויקיצו המדנים שהיו נרדמים לולא השנאה, אבל מדת האהבה שבנפש היא תכסה על כל פשעים, גם על הפשעים הגדולים, וכ"ש שלא יתעוררו מדנים על דברים קטנים:
Wengrov’s Malbim on Mishley, 100-1:
“The strife referred to here is specifically the kind of issue that is open to two interpretations, so that the matter needs to be adjudicated. It is not a clear case where injustice is blatant – which is called “transgression” in the verse. The point the master of Proverbs [King Solomon] is making is that on such controversial matters there is no objective need for anger and protest. It is only a subjective need or strong desire to hate that seizes hold of any petty pretext for strife. Hatred arises independently of any real cause, and proceeds to interpret events in the world in the light of his own hostility. A person’s love, on the other hand, causes a forgiving cloud even over real acts of injury against him. Not the external fact but the internal attitude determines the nature and quality of human relations.”
The Malbim says that people who have no hatred one to another won’t be strict on small matters such as damages among neighbors and similar…while the attribute of love in the soul “covers up all faults” even on big faults, all the more not to seek litigation on trifles.
I quote: “You shall not hate your kinsfolk in your heart. Reprove your kinsman but incur no guilt because of him. You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against your countrymen. Love your fellow as yourself: I am the Lord” (Leviticus 19:17-18).
ok - so what is this medrash saying when you put both parts together?
ReplyDelete1] שיר השירים רבה (א:ג): ומה מים מכסים ערותו של ים שנא' (ישעיה יא:ט) כמים לים מכסה כך תורה מכסים ערותן של ישראל שנאמר (משלי י:יב) ועל כל פשעים תכסה אהבה,
ReplyDeleteJust like water covers the nakedness of the ocean (basin), as in Isaiah 11:9
*like water unto ocean gives cover*, so does Torah give cover to the nakedness (shame) of Yisrael, (hatred gives cause to anger and fights -medonim
(
as quoted in Mishlei 10:12, and on all sins, *love* gives cover.
notice the moshul of shir hashirim along with Isaiah, there is no negative connotation in what the water covers (the basin). although loshon Ervah is utilized
in the nimshal of Torah does give cover and offers protection on the nakedness of Israel of which *does have* a negative connotation, however ufshoim (sins), *love* covers (gives cure and becomes invisible) by motivating the prospects in making up.
That is to say the Torah is a catalyst promoting peace.
*In a nutshell: Just like water covers the oceans, so does love
cover (takes care of) sins .*
The water of the oceans cover up the bare ocean bed so that you cannot see it. It turns the ugly, uneven and discolored ocean floor into a smooth beautiful surface. So too, the Torah covers up the many aveiros of Yidden; when the Jewish people keep and learn the Torah, their individual transgressions are covered up in the eyes of Hashem.
ReplyDeleteI don't have my source. I was drawing a parallel with other uses of Erva. It is the voice specifically which is called an Erva. Going with my working definition of Erva as meaning a vulnerability, I arrived at my application of Erva in relation to a woman's voice. The man's vulnerability is a side effect.
ReplyDeleteWhen the vulnerability of a land is exposed, it draws in people who want to ravage the land. When the vulnerability of a woman is exposed it may arouse a man to want her.