Guest Post by Joe Orlow.
Joe Orlow is to be commended for his devotion to the cause of seeking the truth of the Torah and exposing Lies. Remaining silent "for the kavod of gedolim" - is just causing the internal rot of our souls - because we all know the truth and we are required to protest. Pretending that Tamar and Adam are not committing adultery because the "gedolim" gave a false heter - doesn't change reality.
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The crux of the matter is how Halacha is decided. In this case, the Halacha was "Pore'ach Min Ha'Avir", it sprouted out of thin air. We find this decision making process at the crossing of the Red Sea. The horse claimed: "I did nothing wrong. I relied on the driver who gave me directions." The driver claimed: "I did nothing wrong. The horse galloped on its own into battle. I was dragged along into chasing Bnai Yisrael."
What happens, according to the Medrash? The driver is put on the horse and together they are both tossed into the sea.
Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky told me that if I want, I can rely on Rabbi Nota Greenblatt in regard to the Heter for Tamar Epstein to marry Adam without a Get from her husband Aharon Friedman. Rabbi Greenblatt says he performed the marriage of Tamar to Adam by relying on the Gadolim, an apparent reference to Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky. There you have it: "Sus V'Rachvo".
The effect of all this is to corrode the Kedusha of the Jewish Nation. And it leads to absurdities. Rabbi Hillel David told me that he sat on the Feinstein Bais Din and that the Bais Din ruled that Tamar is married to Aharon. Are Tamar's future progeny to be Mamzer in Manhattan but not in Memphis?
Worse than this is that some young Torah Scholars in America are becoming jaded. They think -- consciously or not -- that the Agudath Israel is a corrupt organization. The Moetzes Gadolai Hatorah is corrupt. Their attitude becomes: "Ah! But what can you do?"
What can you do? You can shriek from the rooftops! The Jewish People may be splitting into two Nations that can't marry into each other. We'll survive. But can we survive with a Rabbinate that is cynical and steeped in hopelessness?
The outrage against the Avlah of the Feinstein Bais Din is pent up, but I'm told from a reliable source that the outrage is there. I say that when outrage is repressed, the capacity to become outraged becomes blunted and stunted.
If we don't stand up and protest now, the situation will only deteriorate until we are left barren without anyone who will even listen to our cries.
Unfortunately the attitudes you describe have been the case at Young israel for over a decade! There are many, many decent Torah scholars and layman within many branches but that they allow the currently crooked, corrupt National Council to place the label "Young Israel" upon a wicked cult that genuflects to a rosho who violates the very essence of כָּל אַלְמָנָה וְיָתוֹם לֹא תְעַנּוּן makes all the branches as bad as the one in Las Vegas! That is in the words of the Ibn Ezra!! "According to the Ibn Ezra, this indicates that if someone observes someone else treating a widow or orphan in this manner and does not intercede on their behalf, the silent observer is considered to have transgressed as well. He too will receive the identical punishment as the one who committed the act. The Torah uses the plural form to indicate that both the transgressor and the observer will be considered guilty (Teanun) and are both punishable by death (Vharagti ESCHEM). " (full text at http://cleanupyoungisrael.blogspot.com/2010/08/documents.html )
ReplyDeleteReb Shmuel presented some of the facts from his own views and the opions of Professionals that were involved (unless you believe the conspiracy rant of R Eidenshon that he made up facts ??!!) and Rav Nota was one of the Poisekim that ruled based on these facts.
ReplyDeleteThis very basic fact is beyond all of you ,Kal Vchomer how much of Am HeAratzim you all are about the actual heter.
Shame of you about giving your opinions on Gedolim and Halachik discussions that you have no connection to.
I`m sure if you were living in the times of the Tanaim you would be calling either Bais Shamai or Bais Hillel as corrupter`s of the Torah.
Please take some introspection of this as Elul comes around and pull yourselves out of the deep pit you've put yourselves in.
HaMoche Lchvoid Hatorah V`Loimdeah
you are totally clueless about this case. The facts presented by Reb Shmuel were a report from a psychiatrist who did not actually meet the husband. It is also clear that even if this report were accurate - which it clearly is not - it would not warrant a conclusion that the marriage was a mistake because not only is it possible to have a succsessful marriage with this diagnosis -Tamar did not leave immediately when she was told the diagnosis. That is an elementary requirement of Rav Moshe's psak. You might take the trouble of reading the many gedolim - including Rav Feinstein who have concluded that the heter is not valid.
ReplyDeleteThe only posek who claim that it is valid is Rabbi Greenblatt - and he based his psak entirely on the false facts that Rav Shmuel sent him.
Plesase keep you ignorance to yourself
Rabbi Eidensohn,don't you realize that this abnormal obsession of yours with RSK has taken over your life and it borders on insanity,please for your own sake cut it out already you are only embarrassing and hurting yourself.
ReplyDeleteyou really don't understand. If what I am doing is against the Torah so please show me why? If I am right then the problem is with those who don't do something about a couple committing adultery under the guidance of gedolim
ReplyDeleteJack, you periodically make this same general comment and then do not respond to the replies. Where in the Torah does it say to look the other way when a terrible aveira and chillul Hashem is happening within the Klal? You are proposing that Rabbi Eidensohn look the other way and act as though everything is peachy, and that Rabbis Kaminetzky, Kaminetzky, and Greenblatt not be held accountable for causing Tamar to sin. Or do you believe nothing egregious has occurred, and all is peachy?
ReplyDelete..." reading the many gedolim - including Rav Feinstein who have concluded that the heter is not valid."
ReplyDeleteis rav dovids psak in writing?
“Pretending that Tamar and Adam are not committing adultery because the "gedolim" gave a false heter - doesn't change reality.”
ReplyDeleteI ask why did Kaminetsky-Greenblatt approve the heter which Greenblatt used to marry Tamar to her boyfriend, while her husband, alive and well, refusing to divorce her? I ask myself, couldn’t Kaminetsky-Greenblatt push Tamar’s request off, saying they were too busy, they had other things to do and such?
I have a theory. Kaminetsky, Greenblatt, Ralbag, Schechter, and Goldfein are the real leaders of the Mendel Epstein et al forced gets. True Ralbag got $10,000 per pop while Mendel Epstein got $50,000. Kaminetsky, Greenblatt, Ralbag, Schecter, and Goldfein are the big brains and teachers of the criminal gang. Kaminetsky:Greenblatt, Ralbag, Schecter, and Goldfein pounded into the heads of Mendel Epstein et al that their foul methods of divorce are proper and holy---in total defiance to the rabbis of Israel. Kaminetsky, Greenblatt, Ralbag, Schecter, and Goldfein would rave against the rabbis of Israel, saying that rabbis of Israel know nothing of true Torah, as only they do. Mendel Epstein et al should plead for a sentence reduction that they had only good and noble intentions, stressing that Kaminetsky, Greenblatt, Ralbag, Schecter, and Goldfein are the king pins and entrapped them. Is it fair that Ralbag, the true head, should get an immunity and his damning testimony given such high-level credence? Ralbag, Schecter, and Goldfein lied and squealed on their workers trying to save their skins. Apparently, the FBI threatened Ralbag, Schecter, and Goldfein. I say don’t expect regret from Kaminetsky, Greenblatt. No one is threatening them. They feel they were right in what they did.
The only record is R Shalom Kaminetsky's letter which acknowledges that Rav Dovid Feinstein rejected the heter and that he and his father have accepted that psak
ReplyDeleteI am not a Rav or a POISEK therefore have no idea who is right or wrong but that is not my point,the point is even assuming that his ruling was HALACHLIKLY wrong Rabbi Eidensohn posted his opinion not once not twice but has literally hundreds of posts on this subject,that my friend is called an obsession and needs to be dealt with professionally for his sake
ReplyDeleteI heard that Rabbi Shmuel Fuerst, from Chicago, was also involved in the so-called "Heter". Does he get a free pass from public condemnation for his share in this travesty???
ReplyDeleteYes he was involved. But the structure of this is simply that the Kaminetsky's petitioned R Greenblatt to give a heter based on their "facts" and Rabbi Greenblatt agreed. He didn't bother checking the "facts" because to do so would be chutzpah. How can you investigate whether the gadol hador is telling the truth? Now that he has given a heter it is basically impossible for him to acknowledge that he made a major mistake because after all the relied on the gadolo hador. Rabbi Fuerst was a facilitator. But then again so is Rav Dovid Feinstein, Rav Hillel David and in fact any rabbi who knows the truth and is simply remaining silent.
ReplyDeleteI plead guilty to being obsessed with keeping the Torah. Normally I would write about keeping Shabbos or kashrus - but since there is no major disagreement with that it serves no purpose. If you have been following the blog I am obsessed with many things - child abuse, chinuch, agunas, families being destroyed by feminists etc etc.
ReplyDeleteYour attempt to trivialize this as manifestation of a psychological problem is simply apikorsus.
"Rabbi Fuerst was a facilitator."
ReplyDeleteSome questions:
1. Is it known in which manner he facilitated this?
2. Since he was a facilitator, can we say that his hands are clean from the muck and slime?
3. If he "aided and abetted" the Heter, doesn't he become an accessory to the dastardly deed?
4. Given the above, why does he get a free pass?
he doesn't get a free pass - the question is what can be done to stop the adulterous relationship. Simply a pragmatic question.
ReplyDeleteWhile I agree with your conclusions - but since the sin has become public knowledge - all those who don't protest become facilitators
I see a difference between someone who was a facilitator before the fact (aiding and abetting the issuance of the heter), and someone who after the fact neglects to protest a sin that others did or are doing.
ReplyDeleteHochiach tochiach, afilu meah peomim, would you call the Torah being obsessive?
ReplyDelete"Your attempt to trivialize this as manifestation of a psychological problem is simply apikorsus."
ReplyDeleteI assume you are not saying that someone is an apikorus for doubting you!?
obviously not
ReplyDelete@Eli
ReplyDelete*R'SK presented some of the facts from his own views*, why then did he still need the opinions of the professionals for? Furthermore, If RNG ruled based on these facts why again was it necessary for any others opinion? BTW, Your not playing with a full deck of cards, and you suspect R' Eidensohn of conspiracy rant? According to the law of the land, for a fair and sound Diagnosis you must *hear* from the horses mouth and not ish mipish, kal vachomer paskening on something that is heresay. Veal tehi DaatTorah vedaas haKohol kalo be'einecho. We have here anywhere from Rabonim, Poskim, Lomdim, Talmidei Chachomim Muflogim Unvonim, Yodea Sefer, Baalei Urayon, Attorney's, Psychologists, Psychiatrists, Thinkers, and People of the know and in the know of havayos De'Abaye veRovo and havayos haolam. You can never sell any of these the Brooklyn Bridge, let alone divrei havay. Haven't you seen, haven't you heard from all the Geoinei sevel uPoskei haDor that this Scandal of Biblical proportions is full fledged Gilui Arayos, veteitze mize umize umiyad? Where have you been hiding away? Mi lecho etzel Beis Shamay, uma lecho etzel Beis Hillel, Klach lecho etzel R' Dovid ubeis Dino that said *The Heter is worthless* bimlo muvan hamila and the K's subjected themselves to R' Dovid's Psak from Adam, then only to deffect. Is this what you call Gedoilim?
Ve'ein kaan lo Heter veLo Psak velo klum ela dvorim haporchim be'avir vedivrei hevel havolim asher ein bohem mamash. Elul is memashmesh ubo, veyefashfesh bemaasov lifnei bo hayom hagodol vehanoiro, veyofeh shaa achas kodem. What you do need to be moiche BeYesser se'es ubeYesser OIz is Megaleh Ponim baTorah shelo keHalacha! Shame on Whom?
true . but at present I see it as a distraction
ReplyDeleteYour attempt to trivialize this as manifestation of a psychological problem is simply apikorsus.
ReplyDelete=========================================
Rabbi Eidensohn,are you by any chance a TALMID or CHASID of Reb Yoel of Satmar,whose modus operandi
was to call everyone who disagreed with him an APIKORUS and a MIN
Dear Mr. Jack Orlow,
ReplyDeleteCan you possibly write a synopsis on this subject of what Tamar wrote in her notebook that she *can do better*. Apparently all those wise people advising her and supporting her agreed to that statement. Here we are at the end of the day and the Day After and weeks and months later. What have they all to show in what aspect has she done better. Even in their own set of logic, the Adams are like fugitives living in seclusion as bossor shenisalem min hoayin, or most likely only weekend couples as bar bei rav lechad yoma at best. Their prospects of having children are in mothballs since they are already declared as mamzerim even before shebau leolom. According to the Poskei haDor, the whole world knows that they are living in sin R'L'. They both are well aware that The Emperor has no Clothes, never had and never will, why then hold on unto something that you can never have and never hold. It is like beating a dead Red Herring without schmaltz and without zaltz that you cannot eat and yet have never even captured. Rather than a *Dag* sheole beAspamya, it is chalomot beAspamya blowing bubbles in the wind ad sheyafuach hayom venossu hatslallim. Months and years are passing by with no hope and no Tachliss, the Question is, What's the Point??? Isn't there anyone that can wake her up and have her smell the coffee? Where are her real good friends and real good people?
The same question applies to all the rabiners who have helped her and counseled her to jump into a Be'er Shachas uMayim asher ein lohem Sof with an a Eitza she'eino hogenes lo lingering away bekaf hakela. It is thus, that is the epitome of a *Lebedige Almana*, vatihyeno Tzrurot ad yom muson *Almenus Chayos* aka from alleged Aguno into captivity of sin. They extracted her from one kind of a so called Aguna into a an Eishes ish Aguno that is neither here nor there, not for Kiddush nor for Havdala just living in sin. As is, it seems that they all are quite content with the present situation as if all is peachy keen living happily ever after.
In reality, Lola is living a life of torture and totally worthless wasting away minute by minute while the clock is ticking. When facing the world, how do all these people save face and explain that she *did* do better the second time around. Please, if there is anyone out there that can make sense and logic out of this saga, if you know something, please say something. Is it maybe also possible that the rabiners are ashamed and embarrassed to admit their falsifications, lack of due diligence, and total failure of their Mission Impossible? What happened to Pikuach Nefesh? You put her into this mess, umipnei habusha you will let her die on the operating table. Dr, Aba Epstein would never do such, and deserves for his daughter so much better, don't you think?
Vata'an *Esther vaTomar*:
Nafshi bisheilosi, veami bevakoshosi, I am a meis mitzva floating in the doldrums that is in dire need of Pidyon Shvuyim asher lo bein hachayim, velo bein hameisim! I need change, someone to blow some fresh air a Ruach haChayim, she'im kein lo lama li Chayim. This should be considered as an S.O.S. Where is Yad LeAchim ? How can you help me?
Very interesting. So your are neither a Rav or a Poisek, but are you perhaps a mental health professional that can authoritatively diagnose a condition as being an abnormal obsession? Even if you were to be a world renowned scientist you could still be making a serious error.
ReplyDeleteI once queried a celebrated psychiatrist who was also an atheist as to how he diagnose a client who presented the following symptoms:
The client was convinced of the existence of a Being that was omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent; that the Being was the Creator of everything that exists. He was also firm in his conviction that the Creator created everything according to His design and Will and that the algorithm employed in Creation is completely unfathomable to mankind.
The subject further believed and actually acted in accordance with that belief, that said Creator knew every deed and every thought of every creature in the universe, that he judged all pursuant to a Code of His own devise.
The subject claimed that he knew as a fact that the Creator communicated his Code over 3,000 years directly to the subject's ancestors and that the communication occurred at a hill in the midst of a wasteland and that more than 600,000 people witnessed this spectacle in a whirlwind of cloud, smoke, and fire.
The psychiatrist listened intently to my presentation and swiftly issued his diagnosis.
The subject is obviously suffering from a combination of paranoid schizophrenia and an obsessive compulsive disorder. Without personally examining the subject it cannot be determined with certainty that he might of danger to himself or to others, but it would be advisable to proceed with extreme caution when approaching the subject.
It is not apparent that Rabbi Eidensohn is dealing with an "abnormal obsession" as you put it. It is more likely that the good Rabbi is acting as a Jew with sincere commitment to his creed, which to a non-believer is indistinguishable from mental illness. Without having ever met Rabbi Eidensohn, I cannot attest with certainty that he is as great a Yiray Shomyim as he appears to be, but if he is not, then he is doing a great job at deceiving me.
Mr. Korn, without ever having met you I cannot discern your level of piety, but it is seems to me that although you appear to free of any obsessive notions, you sir, may however be suffering from a paucity of faith.
no - but I am a talmid of the Rambam. This has nothing to do with whether you are disagreeing with me. It is that you are dismissing the whole enterprise and trivializing it as psychological problem.
ReplyDeleteWe have been dealing with a serious religious problem, with great concern with halachic details as well as establishing the facts and psychological issues. All of this is simply dismissed by you as obsession. One who treats with reality with such contempt is a fool. One who treats the religious issues with contempt is an apikorus.
BTW there are a lot of people who have disagreed with me over the years about which view is correct. I do not refer to those people as apikorsim. However one who ridicules serious religious issues such as adultery is showing contempt for the Torah and that is apikorsis.
If Rabbi Fuerst was a facilitator, then the narrative isn't about a horse and its rider. It's about a unholy trinity who gave birth to this aberration.
ReplyDeleteCalling him out for being part of this trinity, is part and parcel of what we need to do to make people aware of who we are dealing with.
This is line with the Chazon Ish, who you frequently quote, that knowledge about a talmid chachom who shapes Yiddishkeit is similar to that of an artisan. Just as one is permitted to convey accurate information about an artisan if there is to'eles so it it permitted to reveal information about a gadol if there is to'eles.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamar-epsteins-heter-rav-shmuel-feurst.html
ReplyDeleteThank you for reminding us about the post concerning Rabbi Fuerst's alleged share in the heter.
ReplyDeleteThis confirms that there are more than merely two players here (the rider and the horse), but rather a group of people who distorted the Torah in a despicable manner. They should all be named and shamed.
Rabbi Fuerst got lucky that your focus is primarily on Rabbis Kaminetzky and Greenblatt, and that his name was forgotten about in the ruckus. But we need to remind ourselves about his share in the fiasco, and bring up his name in conjunction with the others. To do so, isn't a distraction, since he allegedly was part and parcel of the problem at hand.
At this point Shmully Feurst is not one of the prime players. If R. Feurst were to issue a public and private directive to the adulterers, telling them to separate, they would not listen. They would listen if RSK and RNG would tell them to separate, but not R. Feurst or RGDS. The main players are those that can affect the cessation of this adulterous union.
ReplyDeleteIt definitely would be nice to deal with RSF, but that's secondary to the primary issue at hand. Besides, he was never seen as a person who is on the level shaping Yiddishkeit, unlike RSK who is.
I will take the honor of protesting against your bizayon of the Satmar Rebbe. It's just another glimpse into your lack of Torah knowledge combined with alot of arrogance and chutzpah.
ReplyDeleteGranted your assumption that the adulterers wouldn't separate merely on the basis of R' Fuerst's directive. However if RNG and RSK respect his judgement (as evidenced by feeling empowered by the backing he allegedly gave to the heter) then they should respect his judgement if he says that they need to separate, and he should pressure RNG and RSK to tell the adulterers to separate. By not speaking out, R' Fuerst continues to aid and abet the commission of the sin.
ReplyDeleteexamples please of this claim against r' Yoel?
ReplyDeletewould you say the same about woodward and bernstein in the 70s or seymour hirsch today? he is pursuing a key story like an investigative reporter, we need people like this
ReplyDeleteDo you believe that he can pressure RNG to retract? Where RDF and so many other legitimate rabbonim failed, do you think RSF would be successful? RNG didn't want to give the heter without having another two rabbis agree with it. That was in the past. Now, post heter, RNG refuses to retract for a different reason. It is highly improbable that RNG will even be willing to discuss it with RSF at this point.
ReplyDeleteAs for RSK, he will simply say that he is the wrong address to even discuss this with. He'll say that it's RNG's heter - not his.
I don't think that RSF can "pressure" anybody. But by not speaking up, he encourages the others to sit smugly and stick to their erroneous position. In other words, his silence provides them with backbone to withstand the public pressure. If he would speak out, they would be a lot more uncomfortable. So in effect, his silence is aiding and abetting the continuation of this aberration, and he should be called out for this.
ReplyDeleteIf we are discussing RSF's guilt, it's unfortunately true. But as far as calling him out for the his minor misjudgment of keeping quiet, I disagree. Do you have proof that can be published that shows that he joined in the heter? What more can be said now? Unleash a witch-hunt against him?
ReplyDelete" post concerning Rabbi Fuerst's alleged share in the heter. This confirms that there are more than merely two players "
ReplyDelete"alleged" ... doesnt confirm anything.If someone is said to be allegedly guilty of something, it means that proof has yet to be produced
true but in this case I confirmed that he was directly involved
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