התפתחות מפתיעה בפרשת "המשגיח התוקף", הנאשם במעשים קשים של תקיפת שלוש נשים, מאז היותן ילדות קטנות. עורכי דינו יהודה פריד וטל גבאי טענו בפני בית המשפט כי הוא סובל מבעיה פסיכיאטרית קשה וכי אינו אחראי למעשיו.
בחוות הדעת כותב פרופ' אלי זומר כי לא ניתן להטיל על המשגיח אחריות פלילית, זאת לאור כך שקיימת במוחו אישיות נוספת, מעין "מפלצת", שהיא זו שביצעה את המעשים.
על פי החוות דעת, הנאשם אינו זוכר כלל את מעשיו וככל הנראה צד מסוים באישיותו ביצע את המעשים מחוץ לשליטה של "האישיות המרכזית" שלו ומבלי שיהיה מודע לכך.
"הנאשם כלל אינו זוכר את מעשיו, דבר המעיד על כך שצד מסוים באישיותו ביצע את המעשים מחוץ לשליטה של 'האישיות המרכזית' שלו ומבלי שיהיה מודע לכך", הסביר פרופ' זומר, לדבריו, האיש פעל באופן אוטומטי וללא אחריות ומודעות למעשיו.
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Can anyone with a relevant professional knowledge confirm that this theory actually exists that a seemingly functioning person can perform actions and yet not be aware of that.
ReplyDeleteOf course this would not undermine the fact that this new tactic represents the dire position of the defendant
And what exactly is your comment on this, Rabbi E?
ReplyDeleteAre you posting this because you agree with defence, because you don't or something in the middle?
I need to ask this question because you seem to randomly favour the defence of some alleged abusers (to wit, the seminary scandel) some you absolutely do not agree with the defence, with no rhyme or reason.
Yeah Right! The Devil made me do it! Like Malka Aussie and Shmendrick Shmendrovits. Lock up the Devil and throw away the key. Let the chips and the Devil's hosts fall where they may.
ReplyDeleteRight. How is this similar to the sem scandal??
ReplyDeleteפרופ' אלי זומר
ReplyDeleteEli Somer is an Israeli Professor of Clinical Psychology at the University of Haifa, School of Social Work. Wikipedia
Born: 1951, Haifa
If the reason we lock up criminals is for prevention then I don't see the relevance of this revelation as a defense. And if he is pleading insanity in order not be 'punishable' then since he has no control over his actions and he is liable to do any terrible thing then at least he should be put into a safe place where he can do no more damage.
ReplyDeleteThe sem scanda concerned a group of american girls. Israeli charedim don't understand american charedim. They think they're MO or something. (After all, they don't get married at 17 18 or 19, for starters. And the boys not till 21 22 or 23.) So israeli charedim think they're 'loose girls' anyway, so what if their RY took advantage of them?
ReplyDeleteabsurd!
ReplyDeleteDissociative Identity Disorder (formerly called Multiple Personality Disorder). I'm assuming this is what they are claiming. Consult google for more info.
ReplyDeleteWill we see the RY, other rabbonim testify that he was not functioning ar rav / mashgiach during this time? (Then why didn't the fire him, put him on sabbatical, hire another mashgiach to service the talmidim students who weren't being servicedby him (cause ofhis 'condition'?)
ReplyDeleteThe defense seems to be that he suffers from some sort of multiple personality disorder.
ReplyDeleteA short discussion of the strategy:
http://www.neulaw.org/blog/1034-class-blog/3975-dissociative-identity-disorder-as-a-legal-defense
I'm not writing about the r M bet din, as he is american, and knows what .is going on. I refer to the charedi community in israelin general.
ReplyDeleteSuch generalizations are problematic. It is the American rabbinate which has been up unitl recently refused to deal with abuse.
ReplyDeleteYou might remember the Kolko case in Lakewood where the family of the victim was driven out because they went to the police They in fact had tried working with a beis din to resolve the issue but it didn't help. Rav Sternbuch that it was permissible for them to go to the police. The situation was finally resolved when Rav Chaim Kanievsky pasken that Lakewood had to give the father back his job.
You might remember Rabbi Belsky's involvement to try an prevent people reporting abuse?
Remember the Weberman case?
Perhaps you have heard of Rabbi Silman in Bnei Brak who has been dealing with the issue - together with the police and social workers for years
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/12/child-abuse-treatment-in-chareidi.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/03/child-abuse-r-silman-force-abuser-to.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/01/rav-silman-reporting-molesters-to.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/02/rav-chaim-konievsky-reporting-child.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/02/maaneh-center-of-beit-shemesh-proper.html
I don't know about that.
ReplyDeleteBut I do know that in chu'l, chasidim consider non-chasidim as half goyim. Especially if they were a tie. I'm talking about the younger generation of chasidim who grew up in completely insular societies with limited education. I have been told by a 10 year old chosid that I wear a short jacket and a tie like the goyim and should know that I will go to gehinnem. The fact that they dress like Polish nobleman doesn't seem to matter. Not to mention that it seems ok for the women to be fashionable.
Probably e'y is different, as all chareidim have a common enemy.
I was responding to a comment about the 'sem scandal', not about abuse (acceptance) in general.
ReplyDeleteYes, they gave the father his job back, but did they truly accept him back? Did they admit they did wrong? He is a second class citizen there (if i were him, i wouldn't accept the position back, but that's his decision.)
Even israeli litvish do not listen to their gedolim. Remember the yeshivot and bet yaakovs that were instructed by RSZA to admit sfardim and americans (separate cases) but they still didn't?
not sure what your point is. I was commenting on your comments
ReplyDeletewhen you refer to the sem scandal - did you accept the evidence that I presented concerning it or are you taking the view of Yerachmiel Lopin? There is a major disparity between the two positions.
so what is your point?
I see that chicago saw this as a way to extort money. (My neice was in another seminary at the time.)
ReplyDeleteRav M worked it out, then chicago cameand (tried to, don't know what happened in the end) ruined his carefully worked out result.
I'm on good terms with my satmar cousins of my age, but their children, forget it. Americans and israelis (not satmar, but dushinsky and ponovetz). They are taught like you say; i should call my contemporaries on it, but iwont.
ReplyDeleteIsraeli charedim are so split up into different factions, that there is no common enemy, since at the top level, they're getting big $$$ from the common enemy. But little of that ends up in the common man's coffers.
Have statistics? Asking because I don't see what you apparently see. I noticed, particularly recently, that I don't feel inhibited talking to chassidim. Happened to see that see that vividly ...... Yesterday, I was among Vizhnitzer chassidim in Monsey. I see that among Skvere Chassidim too.....and in Williamsburg, I relate to people just like I would relate to Chassidim I see in Lakewood. ....
ReplyDeleteAlso noticed that something profoundly resonates with me, from recently reading in the book, " Secret of the Stranger" , where Rabbi Aaron Kotler was interviewed about Lakewood's frum community and said in response to the question of Chassidic interaction there, that even though they may have differences, it is important to note that there are much more that they have in common then their differences. ..
In the end Chicago was included in a joint beis din. All the evidence was reviewed and a joint psak was issued. Basically Chicago ate crow. Yes Lopin is still holding by Chicago before they did teshuva
ReplyDeleteSee the comment below. There is a difference between the 'youngest' generation of chasidim and the earlier ones.
ReplyDeleteAnyway I am not talking about talking to them, relating to them or feeling inhibited. It's what they think about you and the impression they give of you to their kids. And you are not likely to find out. But when it comes to your (by you I mean not just you personally I mean non chosids) money (if it does) or if it may come to your money they will be tolerant.
Yes , i know that. I referto notbknowing what happened in the end with the seminaries. Who owns hem now? Who runs them? Are they still owned by one owner, or separate? Did the young ladies marry? Cohanim? Marry well, or 'damaged goods? Arebthey in therapy?
ReplyDeleteIf anything, the younger generation would be more open. ..
ReplyDeleteWhat is proper criteria to decipher such a fact? Thankfully, I kim'at don't have such experiences for the most part. For the most part, still looking for validation of your comment...