Our dearest Esti,
I miss you every day, every hour and every minute. It's not natural for parents to bury their daughter, and it's hard. Very hard. We didn't know you were suffering so much. You would always call to tell us how happy you are and how good things are, because you put honoring your parents above all and you didn't want to cause us any pain. That's why we never thought to take steps and find the things that would help you stay with us. When you decided to leave the fold of religious observance we hoped a day would come that you'd come back. We prayed to live to see you as you were.
We just concluded the week of mourning. Hundreds of men and women came to our house to comfort us, and they told us such amazing stories. Stories about a lovely woman. With your heart of gold, you spent all your days giving to others. To my great anguish, we didn't merit having you stay with us.
Your departure caused a storm in the land, we paid the highest price. Hopefully it will help people understand each other better.
You once said that you were our right hand. Every day, every hour, not a week went by when you didn't call and say: "Mom and Dad, come to our house for a meal." When you heard one of us wasn't feeling well, you were there in a minute. You constantly sought what was good for us. Your love for us, and ours for you, cannot be expressed in words.
I write to you with a broken heart. I can't believe you're not here with us. You were a beautiful and wise woman, a woman of kindness and empathy. You built a wonderful family and were a dedicated mother who raised her children in the most positive manner possible. I promise you that we'll be a mother and father to your Tammy and take her son into our hearts just as you asked, and we'll always keep the hope that one day they too will return to our path.
Love,
Mother
What a beautiful and touching letter. This is how will remember Esti forever, a mother and daughter lemofet! veChaval al deabdin. Dear Mother, we feel your pain, Titnachmi. Amen
ReplyDeleteSorry for thinking out loud, and with all crudeness aside (and also lately on my mind), don't Chazal teach us that we do not look to find a zechus for a maisis umaidiach. ...someone who took her daughter off the derech, someone who worked in an office helping people go off the derech (perhaps one might throw in the din that one doesn't eulogize one who committed suicide? Also, aren't these dinim with the underscore that we don't praise people who we should not be inspired of and that we should not integrate their outlook whether consciously or subconsciously? What am I missing?
ReplyDeleteI agree with what you are thinking out loud.
ReplyDeletePlease write a guest post on the subject
Agreement is insufficient. At least answer me out loud. ..with proof...
ReplyDeleteA mother lomofet does not blame her daughters for her suicide. That is a sadistic act.
ReplyDeletePI, If you have read her book and listened to what o'rech din The lawyer Moshe Os'ditsher said you would not be quick to judge someone who suffered incredible abuse - he - MO said that ' her blood ' is on the hands of her ex husband , he was a soteh min who systematically broke her and made her into a shifchat min and when his shifchat min ran away , he took her children from her . I am surprised there is very little sympathy here for the abused. If you intend to write a post how about contacting Moshe Os'ditsher for your questions. Derech e'retz kodmah la'torah and sometimes saving your sanity and healing from the abuse means leaving the fold. she did not work in helping people go off the derech but support people like her who had suffered at the hands of believers to find a new life. Her daughter saw the injustice , the others were brainwashed and preferred to stay with the money and the security of the community and not speak out - Hashem prefers the mensch who is not frum , that the frum who are not menchlich. I think you should be thinking aloud about the ex - how he is being protected by the community , how her silence was bought. Her mother's letter and the evidence of others shows she was a dedicated mother and managed to keep going as long as she could and a good daughter.
ReplyDeleteYes, the 42 years in purity.
ReplyDeleteDear Ehud,
Since you've done a lot of writing about what you assume, imagine and would like to have happened, then I will not withhold my own assessments from you.
1) She wrote her book in which she ascribes much supposed pain to the Ger takuness. When she wrote this, she had already been in a committed relationship with another man for several years.
Why would she bother speaking about a lack of romance in a previous relationship, when she had already abandoned that world and was living happily ever after with her new beau (Harrel)?
You have your assumption, and I have mine.
2) What brought her to attempt to commit suicide, according to her version?
(Please excuse the disgusting details).
She eventually, had relations with another man, while her husband was with her. He was happy with this and encouraged this.
(She writes this in her book, and does not seek to spare this from her children, or anyone else.)
3) She was/became aware that a woman who willingly lives with another man, becomes forbidden to her husband. Knowing this, emotionally, she couldn't continue with this. She had to end her marriage.
4) She couldn't bring herself to live, or die, with a divorce, so she attempted suicide.
( We can speculate as to why she couldn't live with a divorce. Maybe she assumed she would lose her children. Maybe she couldn't live with shame of a failed marriage. Maybe she felt that she would lose some prestige and respect in the eyes of her children, family and friends. Maybe she was afraid that the details would come out, and she couldn't live with THAT shame. Who knows?)
5) While in the hospital after her attempted suicide, she decided to abandon religion.
6) She divorced her husband. With that, she also cut off contact - or she was cut off - from all her children.
7) From an emotional perspective, her children felt abandoned by their mother.
8) A couple of years ago she began suing her ex husband. (The interview with her lawyer has her version of events.) They settled the case, and he gave her 1,000,000 shekalim. Presumably, such a settlement would have a non-disclosure agreement.
It is also interesting to note, that she did not insist that the settlement include her ex husband doing concrete things to help rekindle a relationship between her and her children.
9) Recently, she wrote to her ex husband that her silence is costing her and that she cannot remain silent anymore.
10) She did not publish her book while she was alive.
It is possible that no publishing house felt her book would sell.
It is also possible that they did feel it would sell, but were afraid of being sued if there indeed was a non-disclosure agreement between her and her ex.
She also could have been sued.
11) She committed suicide, and with that she published her expose on her ex husband.
Why did she write about the takuness? The way I see it, she was writing as a justification for her lack of satisfaction, which brought her husband to try and satisfy her in perverse ways. First he took her get massages by females, and then by males. It was her husband who told the male masseuse to go further. It seems that this is what got her settlement of a million shekalim. Who knows, it's even possible that she was not assur on her husband - if the shekalim were justified..
12) V'zeh hakol
13) Who's on first?
Alan, if you don't mind, kindly send a link to her book. I saw some things on YouTube, but mostly in Hebrew. ....
ReplyDeleteThanks
Does it have the entire story that you were referring to before? If so, couldn't access. ..
ReplyDeleteYou don't even understand on face value *bechad anpin*. She blamed for the fact how much she misses them, and cannot bear anymore.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.upfile.co.il/file/368091198.html
ReplyDeleteSorry. As I just finished my reply, with the click of a wrong button, it all flew away. Will try to recreate it later B"LN.
ReplyDeleteyou are relying on a lot of conjecture plus accepting that everything she wrote is literally true. Bad combination to ascertaining objective truth - esepcially since you long ago made up your mind that she is a righteous woman who cracked under pressure which she bore no responsiblity for.
ReplyDeleteאני לא כועסת על שתי הבנות אבל מאוכזבת מאוד על שלא האמינו לבקשותיי החוזרות ונשנות לשמוע אותי ושלא השכילו להבין שלא ייתכן שעזבתי את כל מה שהיה לי בגלל סיבות שוליות. הן היו צריכות לקום ולעמוד על רגליים אחוריות ולדרוש לדעת את כל האמת על מה שקרה, וברור לי שאם הייתי זוכה מהן להכרה ולהבנה לא הייתי מגיעה לרגע הזה.
ReplyDeleteThat's not blaming her daughters?
Kindly let us in on facts, if you know any. In your expertise, why did the husband need this perverse forplay and horseplay before he was able to perform. I am open for suggestions, but at the rate as more information is coming in, it all has an adverse effect on him. You kept on answering my questions with yours leaving empty spaces, most of them curved balls and fillibustering away. I would even dare say that you have many clients that you do not want to alienate. It's not good for business.
ReplyDeleteagain you insist that these allegations are facts
ReplyDeleteWhat am I missing?
ReplyDeleteMaybe a heart.
Veal koze ne'emar from the Chasam Sofer, noch emmes zol dos auch zayn. Enough if they only say. On the flip side of the coin, he has nothing to say. Shtika kehoido'o. Please don't ask me if his hodo'o kishnei eidim or kmeah eidim damya, we are not in BD or in court. Just let's tackle this simply as it comes in. In the mean time, you can verify from the massagists, swingers, and machlifei mishkevosehem, if it has any merits. You can just not make away nor wish it away bebitul bealma. There are court papers, BD records and what people in the know have to say. So far according to you, she is well and alive and kicking.
ReplyDeleteAnd that is the meaning of umah ya'aseh haben shelo yechto. She finds herself fighting against the world, no Emmes, no Omed bediburo, No BD sticking up for her plight, disenfranchised methodically of her children machmad eineha, olom hofuch shel Sdom vaAmorah rules and the Torah calls such vehoyiso meshuga mimareh einecho. This brings to a total breakdown and no wonder she loses Emunas chachomim with a legitimate question, ZU TORAH VEZU SCHORAH? From there on the glitch is on fast forward. Shadei bamromim, yesh manhig labirah, vehoElkim yevakesh es haNirdaf, vehoElokim ino leyodo.
ReplyDeleteאני לא כועסת על שתי הבנות אבל מאוכזבת מאוד על שלא האמינו לבקשותיי החוזרות ונשנות לשמוע אותי ושלא השכילו להבין שלא ייתכן שעזבתי את כל מה שהיה לי בגלל סיבות שוליות
ReplyDeleteShe is clearly talking about the present when they are grown up
At time of breakup she already explained they were .
much too young to understand.
You have the order mixed up.
ReplyDelete1) she did not go to Beis Din before attempting to commit suicide.
Which Beis Din are you accusing for not sticking up for her - the one she didn't go to?
2) When she she unfortunately abandoned her heritage in the psych ward, she was escaping from life. That escape included running from her kids as well. Of course she later changed her mind, and of course a relationship should have been fostered with her kids. But where did you pick up the notion that she's completely blameless?? There's enough to go around.
3) Did she not want to go for the massages? How do you know this? How did he "force" her to go? Did she go to the commedant to complain? To her father? Why is this only his fault; because she's not here to be sued?
4) When she got her 1.3 million shekalim, why didn't she sue and demand a relationship fix with her kids? Who are you going to blame for this one? Will you just filibuster this away? Will you keep on repeating your assertions without any proof?
Nu?
ReplyDeleteHer father counted 43 years, vekulam shavim letova.
ReplyDeleteI try to be objective and without prejudice, from what she said, wrote, and gave mareh mekomot of real people, ubemilsa deavide leisgaliya, lo meshakrei bei inshei. On the flip side of the coin, he only has shtika kehooido'o on his side.
1) You are mixing apples and oranges.Her marriage started to fail from square one. Her remarriage did not diminish the pain of the failing of her first marriage nor undo the loss of her children. The disappointment in Yahadus that served her no justice ( as through Y, steinhart etc.) was what brought her to the breaking point, not out of her own free choice. The 43 years that was supposed to be the best part of her life went down the drain, being robbed and stripped of everything that normal people retain to have and to hold.
2) The loss of her children! In this city I gave birth to my children, in this city I died for my children.
You seem to have it the other way around. She begot disgusted with his filthy perverted way of life. Elokim Adirim, such a chasan dinan mole vegodish with Prishus up to his eyeballs, where did he pick up all this tiflus R'L'. From my undersatnding how she was suckered into this, he must have come with CH's kind of droshes from UK that he learnt these techniques from other gedoilem. He must have been from one of those that can only perform with such Shulem zochor forshpils. The commendant buffer was only a front for his reluctance to pay his dues he found too burdensome. By now her children are grown up and wanted to tell them her side of the story what truly happened.
3) This trickery he manipulated was since he couldn't measure and live up to Kegovrin deYehudoin. Had they both agreed to sin she could have continued in doing so as far as he was concerned, but she refused.
4) See 2) in the above. From what she stated, she took a fall for him to spare his bizyonot, only to be blackmailed and backstabbed to relieve her from visitation rights. At this point she didn't elaborate much so as just to spare her children.
5) She abandoned Religion due to the fact that he was successful in manipulating and robbing her of a toil of 26 years in life, all under the name of Torah, of which brought her to lose her faith by stealing it out of her heart, lose her dignity, and the loss of her children. Veachron achron chaviv.
6) The circumstances about and around the divorce has not been written up much yet. The loss of her children see 5).
7) The children have been fed all these years, only what he wanted them to hear. He banned her from visitation rights abrogating his agreement.
8) The settlement of 1.3 Million likely included as Ksus enayim to keep her peace and silence and DID include having visitation rights as noted by the latest newsclip.
9) After taking her life, there is nothing you can do to her for violating her part of the agreement.
10) Rest assure, it's a best seller.
11) The Takunes were aschalte depiranusei. As her father testifies she was neshomo Tehora for 43 years, never a Bogedet in spite of all her dissatisfaction. Don't quite understand what the connection of issur to the justification of shekalim. Compensation you are trying to make, it is most likely for Ksus einayim and hold her peace, of which she did as long as she was alive. As far as Issur to her husband, kvar hoyo dovor meoilom. Rav Vosner Z"L gave a Heter for those kallos in Bnei Berak known as "Umoalo bah moal" that has been utilized for such cases when duped.
12) I think there is yet much more to be revealed to his detriment.
13) Wrong again, who is on second, and he is on third. Don't know anything about the first. Uma shelo ya'ase hesechel ya'asae hazman.
Doesn't sound like they were brainwashed but that they know the truth
ReplyDeleteAssuming her story is true, have you considered that maybe her husband was drawn into it when he tried drastic measures to try to please a wife who was unhappy from day one and nothing he would do could please her (her own testimony). She was unhappy in the beginining of the marriage when they were keeping the restrictions and continued to reject him long after they had abandoned them. Early on in her story she writes of her lesbian tendencies.
ReplyDeleteA telling fact - no mention of her kids in the 180 pages of her autobiography. Just all about how she felt and what she was missing etc. etc. Not one word regarding her children she supposedly killed herself for.
Hevel havalim, asher ein bo mamash. Why should I only assume, if she gave details and mareh mekomot. What are the *drastic measures* that you claim, all he brought her home is the commands of the Commendant. Tse ubasser lasussim vachamorim. He didn't even call her by her name. " *Continues* to reject him", how so? I yet have not had the privilege to see the 183 pages, but those tendencies you try to smear (afra lepimayich), how does that tally with dying to receive a little warmth from her husband, just to hear him address her by her name???
ReplyDeleteAnd now for the telling fact. She called her book, Osseh retzon ba'ala, in it she describes what went on and what he did to her, and what he didn't, where his ratzon was nowhere to be found. It is abundantly clear that she took her life because of losing her children, she was denied to have any contact with them, and that is against the briah of a "Mothers instinct" even in the animal kingdom. Why should I not believe her even without her testimony. And now for the clincher as for not mentioning her kids, *In this town I gave birth to my children, In this town I died for my children*. She died nebach as a Mother with flying colors, while he is rotting away in life with his pervert History having her blood on his hands. So much for not mentioning her children. Just one question if I may, full of Prishus up to his neck, from whence did he beget all this *wilding* with tiflus rolling in bed with machlif tzvuim and machlif mishkevoseihem leshimtza * al hakef kefa *? Did he ask for permission from his Commendant? Huh?
In the hesped, they claimed Esti abandoned them. If this isn't brainwashed, I don't know what is. She even had a clause for vistitation rights to keep in touch, but was denied.
ReplyDeleteWhy is a statement of fact proof of brainwashing?
ReplyDeleteIs there any proof - aside from her claim - that she was denied visitation rights rather than that she gave up visitiation rights?
you still haven't produced any proof that she didn't simply desert her children aside from her statement that she was very upset about losing contact with her kids. What did she do to try and have contact with the children?
ReplyDeleteYou haven't explained why that she was still complaining even after she and her husband stopped following the Takanos of Ger.
Aside from accepting everything she wrote as absolute truth - you have provided any justification for her giving up religion, trying to commit suicide and abandoning her children - besides the fact that she was working for an organization who purpose is to promote an irreligious lifestyle.
1) The one with R' Y. steinheart
ReplyDelete2) He drover her out of her mind as you explain while in the ward. Ve'ein odom nitfas al tzaaro. For forty three years minus 17, according to the kids and everybody else, Esti z"l H'Y' D was a Mother one of a kind. Veachaval al deabdin velo mishtakchin.
3) And how do YOU know that he didn't dupe her as CH from the UK with Towelgate massages and his relaxing techniques he ROFL learnt from other rabonim, or ALL the other menuvolim that had heterim, explanations galore, gilgulim, mekubolim, tikunim, veshaar divrei bela. In all her life before her breakdown, all she asked for is Kederech kol bnei ho'odom beli shum kchal ushrak, and this guy came all the way from Assara kavin Prishus to innovations with all the bells and whistles asher tesamer sa'aros rosh, va'asher lo yodun avoseichem veovos avoseichem meolam. Mi bikesh zos miyedchem?
4) She was crying Rivers of tears for having been ROBBED of everything she owned including her children. As long as we or I yet have to hear the rest of the story and make do from this little we do hear, she was railroaded, to go completely out of her mind, and gave cause to abandon her religion, having the kids brainwashed, and whatnot. She was not after money, all she asked for to enjoy some simchat haChayim. And all those that had a hand in spilling her blood, asidin liten olov es haDin Big Time! Ki al kol ele yeviacho Elokim baMIshpat.
Hey, if you know something, say something. Why don't you let us all in to your privileged information. You seem to know all the wrong questions, how about some right answers, Huh?
She has disclosd her side of the story, does he have anything to say in his defense?
You admit that you didn't read the book, so why are you spewing forth all this nonsense. Get a copy, read it (you can skip the graphic parts) and see that she was not a mentally stable person to begin with. Yes it was hard in the beginning but he eventually warmed up to her but she admits that she never reciprocated. She fantasized about having affair with her female friend as well as with the handsome worker who came to do some home repairs. This was all long before the purported activities took place. It is clear she made him nuts and I think no one can judge him without being in his place.
ReplyDelete"In this town I died for my children" ... after walking out on them, after embarrassing them by living the way she did, and ultimately bringing them eternal shame by publicizing her story. Yes, totally against the maternal nature even in the animal kingdom...
A lot of what she claims she did not give any way to verify it.
ReplyDeleteIn simple and concise English, please list the items that are verifiable, one by one. No long flowery rants, accusations and all. Just simple facts, source, page number. Also, who verified it.
There is no chazakah against her lying. Please stop with these things. Quote a source, and psak that says this.
1) it is absolutely silly to claim that she wrote a book - which caused her unbearable pain - in order to speak about old non-loves. Besides, isen't he a monster who turned into slave? I mean her layer said so, so it must be true. But why is she writing about lost romance with a enslaving monster? She should be happy that the romance was limited!
Get your story straight. It worthless to debate with you, as you have no knowledge of very verifiable facts. Steinhutter is from AFTER the divorce. First find out who he is!
Ehud has no problem being meshaker about milsei d'geluia, but a meabed atzmah l'daatah won't be meshaneh and meshaker. Silly.
She is responsible for choosing to write her book.
You keep on asking more like an Attorney rather than explaining as a Psychologist in being able to sense of wherein lies the truth. You are also privileged to know much more about what happened if you already read her book. Why can't you just be honest to let us all in and state the facts as you know it, in chronological order and then we talk. For all we know, they might have been one of your best clients and do PR for the chevra. All parties concerned do live in Yerushalayim, vechavrei chavrei is lei, it is not so far fetched. What I do understand of the spilled beans, it is not rocket science to read and understand between the lines, all you need apply is the fifth shulchan aruch. Stop having a field day with one sided questions. Provide some answers, at least your version of what had happened. As is, I have one or more hands tied behind my back, and until then, yovo hakohol veyishpot.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you just provide the goods that are available and I provide you the proof. Asking a million and one questions is not proof, only proof is proof. Od chazon lamoed, and then yavo hakohol veyishpot.
ReplyDeleteNo need for allegations, conjectures or otherwise. Have Goods, Will travel!
ReplyDeleteDoes*HE* have any answers to all your Questions??? Of course with proof, whatever they might be. How come you don't ask any questions for his version of what happened. Does he have any? Hmmm... so much for fairness.
ReplyDeleteNu nu!
ReplyDeleteVeod chazon lamoed. It ain't over till it's over.
Kindly present your facts, along with the proof.
ReplyDeleteAssuming that the claims are false - how could he prove that they are?
ReplyDeleteIf you went to beis din and said that the woman was obviously mentally unstable, had no contact with her kids, worked for an organization to help people leave Yiddishkeit, had a close relationship with her parents but never indicated that she had any particular problems or complaints and after commiting suicide left behind a book of bizzarre claims - what do you think the beis din or even secular court would say?
ReplyDeleteif even part of what she claims is true - the normal, maternal thing to do would be to go secular court and demand custody! She never did. And yet she said she died because of her children?! What was stopping her from trying to get custody?
ReplyDeleteWithout assumptions and without Prejudice -
ReplyDeleteHowever, in playing the if game, and Devil's advocate if you will:
Neisei sefer venechze. She gave mareh mokomos lekarev eidusah, the massagist, the mitalsim betsavsa, the machlifim umachlifot, and who told whom to go all the way, and why. If he can explain away and disprove that it ever happened, that should suffice. Else, he is chopped liver and has no prayer.
We have been going around in circles and beating around the bushes for a while. I tried very hard without prejudice, be'emmes uvsomim to bring emmes leamitah from the dynamic information as it becomes available. You try to poke holes and ask for proof, verifcation that I personnaly am not privileged to have, but others already do. As in order to have an honest and intelligent discussion or debate, I prefer to play with a full deck. If you already have some, kindly contribute and provide. Short of that, I exhausted all the questions with my replies, and no use beating a dead horse to death from all other various angles. Od chazon lamoed, venizke venichye, venireh.
For anyone who has any doubts about the extent of her atheism, please see her own words:
ReplyDeletehttp://saloona.co.il/blog/%D7%A7%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA-%D7%94%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%94-%D7%94%D7%AA%D7%A4%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%A8%D7%95-%D7%9C%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%91%D7%A4%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%9D/
FYI, she prefaces her book with a statement that names and places have been changed, she originally wrote it anonymously without the intention of revealing her true identity. Maybe you can divine who these "massagists" are so they can give the testimony you so desperately are craving.
ReplyDeleteHer ex-husband can talk until he is blue in the face, no point for him to even try to dispute the account, it's his word against a corpse's.
She acknowledged that her mind was shot! Being so, she felt she cannot take care of them. All she begged was for morsels to communicate with them, to see them smile, talk and enjoy them. Ve'ein oineh!!! MY HEART GOES OUT FOR SUCH
ReplyDeleteThis is the best, and most rational analysis I've seen.
ReplyDeleteThey would say, get your facts in chronological order, what brought on what, and judge her accordingly. Yes, order matters. Mental torture ma'avirin da'ato shel odom, and that is retzichat hanefesh, of course not those Kangaroo courts asher bein layla hoyo ubein laylo ovad.
ReplyDeleteYou didn't read her 187 page book, but you yourself have written that much as a supposed authoritative analysis. But whatever you know are the five lines cherry-picked from her book by the secular media.
ReplyDeleteInteresting to note, so many of my responses do not appear on page where you pose the questions, until hageshem ovar cholaf veholach lo, except for on DISQUS after being approved where the bloggers don't reach out there. And then it becomes etrogim noch Sukkot. Same thing in the Recent Comments column, when it shows the Commentor, the comments however, do yet not appear, only when after the name is gone.
ReplyDeleteAnd BTW, FYI you seem to know quite a bit, why don't you disclose some in his defense, and why do these orchestrated inquisitors ask me for proof if you know it all. Bet you dollars to doughnuts, the names and places are out there just for the asking. Mi ka'an hillel, mi ka'an hillel, huh?
ReplyDeleteBesides, Mr. Barak, al pi Hilchos Loshon Hora, her accusations are not believable. ..
ReplyDeleteAnswer why he's believed: chezkas kashrus...
ReplyDeleteDo you also embrace the book, "Unorthodox" by Debra Feldman? Is her version also the absolute truth? Is she also worthy of sympathy? You always seem to be level, in my perception and many others here, but with this issue you seem carried away off the deep end. .....I wonder if I should ask aloud the question that you sometimes pose, "Halonu atoh oi l'tzorainu?".......????
ReplyDeleteThe minimum qualification for such an opinion: a brain. ..
ReplyDeleteEven with a messed up mind - she was still functional enough to ask for a schedule of visitation - which she didn't
ReplyDeleteYour actual point is your last statement. This issue has captured your heart and your brain is trying to rationalize why - despite your lack of information what really happened
Again, why are we trying to find merit for someone who went off the derech and took others with her?
ReplyDeleteAre you dense? We're talking about the mother, not the daughter. Gosh.
I don't think you are paying attention to the discussion
ReplyDeleteHow so? Isn't he criticizing Esti Weinstein's mother's letter?
ReplyDeleteI have no problem feeling compassion for her mother, just 2 points 1): the discussion on the string of comments is she herself, not her mother and 2) Rashi (in the name of Chazal, ) discusses the concept of rationalizing in the favor of such a person, not compassion. If you wish to argue that they are inseparable, you might or might not be right.if the reason why we don't look for favorable points on a maisis umaidiach is that people will come to learn from them, then the issues might be separable. If not, then the maisis is excluded from both. ..H"Y
ReplyDeleteIt has been shared info here, that she had been allocated visitations that shlomo refused to honor. Can you find out the truth of this matter?
ReplyDeletePeople keep on harping that she went OTD etc. I hear the same about the molested children, they went off the Derech. They attack a minor, use them only to discard afterwards and blame them, roidef them ad chormo, ad sheteitze nafshom. And mi berosh? These so called rabonim, messira, raglayim bedovor, yada yada yada. When you present them the dovor with the raglayim on video, nehh.. metzachek onoichi, fatherly love. Then you have gilui arayos from the so called gedoilim, with their heter meah avaryonim. All this brings people to lose emunas chachomim, kfira, and go OTD. Im bearozim noflo shalheves, ma yomru ezoivei kir. Umah ya'asseh haben shelo yechto. This is exactly what brought nebech Esti to lose faith, it has been stolen from her. Hashem was her best friend all her life. You don't hear this expression from many Bas gedoilim. Watching how they control the Torah and tell the Torah what to do, disenfranchising of her lifes toil in a blink of an eye, ripped her apart and brought her to nebech vehoyiso meshugo mimareh einecho, bonecho uvnoisecho nesunim leam acher ve'ein loel yodecho. They did with her ma sheba lahem. Her ex devestated her, did with her a Pilegesh begivo maasseh nevolo and made a 180 blaming her. Tagid leshlomo, sheharasta li et chayay!!! She was stripped of everything in her life methodically. Who stuck up for her? No one!!! When I see such travesty, my heart screams from pain, and I place myself in her shoes. Same goe for those little children that have been raped by the Big Bullies, then comes this meiven and tells the kid di zogst ligent, and the innocent child cries and begs, obber es iz azoi gevezen. nein, ober di zogst ligent!!! Is it a wonder the children lose their minds? Of course they go on drugs and then C'V' go off the derech after experiencing such fakeray. And that is why my heart goes out for Esti and for nebach all the other kinderlach, where you can see their original pictures with such yefei einayin, vetov roii, ukvutoisov chaguros loi taltalim! Lock them all up and throw away the key.
ReplyDeleteOk, here is a sample. She complained about his siyutim and others filled in what they have been. Right away they jump on the bandwagon, she asked for it blah blah blah. Rashi However says, that lehoitzi maasseh chidudin she'ein hoisho nehenis meihen. So here is my proof. it most surely is believable. And as for halonu oto, when the dayonim hayoshvim al hamodin go into the background and nosseh venossen ze lekaan veze lakaan, it is nosseh venossen be'emuno objectively and not play favoritism. Adrabah, bring me material that she was not faithful to her husband in her 43 years. Or she did not bring up the children bederech yisrel sovo. How do you explain away a guy loade with tons of prishus comes up with ideas like the gruim shebeumos. How did it happen??? Huh? He started with not eating farfel? These are not sipurim of chalomot beaspamya, the people are real, the people are still here. Take out the fifth shulchan aruch and open your eyes, get out of the box, then you talk. We are responsible for losing her, avol ashemim anachnu al achoseinu asher rainu tzoras nafsho behitchanenah elinu velo shomanu, al kein bo'oh eleinu hatzoroh hazos!!!
ReplyDeleteAgain with your mechane shem, second call
I believe her father well over you. Her father knew her in real life and testified 43 years of her life. Whatever she did when she did, was after her nervous breakdown that this miserable low life inflicted on her. Pilegesh begivo is what you call warming up???
ReplyDeleteROFL. You must be kidding. Why don't you ask him, harotzachto vegam yorashto? Where those zonot getoivelt kosher bosser.
ReplyDeleteI don't intend to read it. I don't go out to defend her becherev ubechanis. Clearly she did things that are not done beshafui rosh. I am sure there are others that will read. Let them cherry-pick whatever they think is good for yidden. From all I have yet heard, he has no prayer. Let him come forth with his version, and I will approach it objectively and confer with my sechel hayoshor, humbly so. I have heard her father R' Menachem testify, which talks volumes. I don't think reading the whole book from cover to cover will make me smarter. I give you people the floor, and deliver the goods, with proof and objectivity keyad hamelech like you demanded from me..
ReplyDeleteI divine that soon enough it will be a sod for gantz brod. He paid a hefty sum to buy her silence. Sadly enough, she couldn't contain it anymore after reaching a critical mass, and the Jeannie broke out of the bottle. The mussar haskel we can learn, is written in blood.
ReplyDeleteLet me put you to the test and be a sport. Is it true that they went down to Tel Aviv or Hotzen Plotz, lo meshaneh and did what they did, or is that matzutz min haetzba? I give you the freedom to choose and cherry-pick to your hearts content, with verification and explanation, orientation of which timeframe in their marriage this allegedly happened. Did they, or didn't they? Of course with the understanding that you didn't personally witness it, but to the best of your ability, what is your take on it. As a bonus, kindly enlighten me with Steinharter/Steinhutter, his role, time and place with it's context and shea'ar yerokes. This is not such a tall order.
ReplyDeleteBTW, you can address me directly without a meilitz beinoisom, I am fluent and well versed in all the languages spoken here.
what is more important than being judgmental is articualting lessons to be learned as an individual, parent and community and taking them to heart
ReplyDeleteI have heard her father R' Menachem testify, which talks volumes.
ReplyDeleteKlum av meid al bno? And that's a real chazakah. I've never heard a rational person use a eulogy as some sort of proof about a person. Did you expect her father to say anything else?
Is it true that they went down to Tel Aviv or Hotzen Plotz, lo meshaneh and did what they did, or is that matzutz min haetzba?
ReplyDeleteRelevance? If they went, it was her idea and he went along because she was making break under unbearable pressure.
See, Mr. Ehud? I can do the making up stories as well. Good luck.
Offhand, when you say to speak to hia/her lawyer to hear their point, I automatically know that I also need to hear out the adversary :-)
ReplyDeleteDidn't get to see the whole story. I only saw the first few lines on the first page. Don't know how to access the rest.
Meanwhile. ..... Just saw greatest anav's narrative.
"Relevance?" = Request for answers to the test of chod li chida.
ReplyDelete"*If* they went" = matil dofi in your own conjecture to dismiss as if a joke only,
You think of yourself as a stealth bomber.
You failed the test.
Read your rant of round 1, the only paragraphs I agree is your statement # 4) When she got her 1.3 million shekalim---- to buy her shtika, and shtika kehodo'o.
In rant of round 2,
the following # 4) "She couldn't bring herself to live, or die, with a divorce, so she attempted suicide."
She was wedged in between a rock and a hard place. Could not continue to live a life of sin, lies, contradictions, while giving an honest chinuch to her children as being an example,- whereas depression, inner torment, insanity, losing contact with (remaining without) her children, losing her mind in the process brought on attempt and then committing suicide. This catch 22 ripped her apart, could not bear the pain anymore.
Furthermore:
11) "She committed suicide, and with that she published her expose on her ex husband.
Why did she write about the takuness? The way I see it, she was writing as a justification for her lack of satisfaction, which brought her husband to try and satisfy her in perverse ways. First *he* took her get massages by females, and then by males. It was her husband who told the male masseuse to go further. It seems that this is what got her settlement of a million shekalim. Who knows, it's even possible that she was not assur on her husband - if the shekalim were justified.."
deny all conjectures and allegations of the above aforementioned, except for, "First *he* took her..."
then in your own words you claim, "If they went, it was her idea "
This is not a joke, it is a tragic sad sad story, nothing to laugh about.
***********************
After reading the rest of the story from greatest anav, I have a different opinion and both are worth their money.
I firmly believe that much of what she wrote is only to spice it up to make it sellable as any other novel. I also realize that she was angry at the dussim, bitter of her goral in life, could not bear the pain over the loss of her children, I therfore take it with a grain of salt. Humpty Dumpty fell to the ground and broke into million and one pieces and died of a broken heart. In her mind, nothing in the world could fix it. This is a sad sad story and a tragedy not only to herself, but all of Klall Yisrael, not the least to her Parents, family siblings and her children. It is with great pain that I read this and fight back tears time and time again, and wish to do so no more. Will not read the book nor interested in any more details, no sense in regurgitating pain and others suffering.
At the end of the day, she is here no more, and we must take a lesson from this all, so that she did not die in vain. I hope and pray that her fathers Kaddish on her behalf three times a day, learning Mishnayos leiluy nishmosah, will elevate her neshomo bitzror hachayim as David hamelech did to his beloved son Avshalom. For those in doubt, Yes, Misa mechaperes!!! Amen
The Father R' Menachem was under no cross examination, he was mesiach lefi tumoi meumka delibah, mesiach libo lifnei koinoi, vechi ma lo leshaker?
ReplyDeleteThat's only for one that is shafui beda'atoh. Here, kule alma moide that she went off her rocker, even she herself said so, vehoidoes baal din (lol) kemeah eidim damya.
ReplyDeleteProblem with that is that Bais Din can't enforce anything. ...and any murderer or other crime perpetrator can claim insanity. ....
ReplyDeleteCan you prove other than he said, she said? Mr. Barak, you usually try to get the facts. ...a bit surprised at you...
ReplyDelete"So here is my proof, it most surely is believable. .." doesn't that statement prove my point?
ReplyDeleteBecause I see no proof to begin with from her word alone to dent his chazakah. ...
ReplyDeleteWouldn't he also approve of the "takuness?....
ReplyDeleteWe're talking here about issurim deoraysa, and you are talking about takuness? BTW, the Takuness don't need his approval. They say it's mostly for shono rishona, and maybe 50% are into it.
ReplyDeleteShe did not say those things in her defense. Anan sahadei that after two breakdowns if the first one didn't yet do it. That's what you are missing!
ReplyDeleteHe bought out her shtika for 1.3 MIllion. Let him spell it out about what not to disseminate. Therein lies the proof, that is not only a dent, but completely totalled. There goes his chazakah. Still surprised?
ReplyDeleteYes I can. He said and she said upon of which both agreed that for 1.3 MIl she will remain silent. Both, the facts and the proof is in the Beis Din. Still surprised. Kulay hay veulay. Now that's what you are also missing.
ReplyDeleteproof? none just conjecture
ReplyDeleteproof? none
ReplyDeleteNot only proves your point but your name as well, Mr. Incorrect. And then you ask what are you missing. What you are missing is something that you cannot buy. Not only the dovor you cannot fathom, but dovor mitoch dovor man dechar shemei.
ReplyDeleteBehooves me, why are you arguing over an episode of something that never happened? Do I have proof that you even exist? My dear friend, chaval al hazman.
I don't need to read her book. Do you also blame the molested children that took their lives, since they first went OTD? Where is the proof? It is six feet under R'L', therein lies the proof, dead! I know a few other of your kind that also ask your same question, where is the raglayim, where is the dovor, where is the proof. Let me tell you where the raglayim are. This maniac stored them away in the freezer so as to use it over again R'L'. Then they go maspid crying crocodile tears, Yodeinu lo shofcho es hadam hazeh!!! When this butcher gave notice on society over a year prior he kidnapped little laiby, they couldn't do anything, messira, proof, raglayim, baal duvor. Messira my foot! In the mean time our children are dying left and right. Are you still in search of proof? What am I missing?
ReplyDeleteHis chezkas kashrus is down the toilet, and the proof is in the Reiche milsa hi. The original facts have received a royal flush.
ReplyDeleteAll conjecture. Proof if any? None. Did she get two nervous breakdowns? Proof, none. Did she commit suicide? Proof? none!
ReplyDeleteProof? None.
ReplyDeleteWhy did she commit suicide? Proof. None. What would you consider as proof, reading the book? Heresay. Listening to what he has to say, he said none.
ReplyDeleteYou have absolutely no basic understanding of the gemara. Ein toanin zchus, is in reference to "vehitzilu hoeido" that the meisis might have refuted the charges if he only had been asked, such as Divrei harav vedivrei haTalmid, divrei mi shomin. see sanhedrin 29: However, if she is insane, is this something that she even needs to toen in her zchus, or anyone else for that matter? Do you in your right mind think the Beis Din will execute someone that is bibchinat Shoite, or Nitrefo da'atah? Vein lecho oiness godol mizu! Is this something that anyone needs to taineh in her favor bichlall? These are facts, and the proof is in the pudding, vehamforsem eino tsorich ra'aya. So there you have it. Missing plenty. You are totally INCORRECT and badly in need to do your homework.
ReplyDeleteOk, you asked questions galore, but supplied no information instead. Do you have any? Can you fill in the true story of what happened, of course with source and proof of those facts whatever they might be. Otherwise, we can go on and on and never even scratch the surface. Your turn, please.
ReplyDeleteWhen she took a fall for his siyutim, no sooner he turned around and used it against her. You cannot have the cake and eat it too. Either it happened or it didn't, she didn't get a little bit pregnant, did she. Did he refute the happening? Did he give his version if any. Since you seem to know, time to let us in on it. Teasing will not cut it.
ReplyDeleteWe, as B'nai Torah (after all, we are on the site called "Da'as Torah",) take our hashkafos from Torah!....Now, simply put, are you capable of answering my questions, not based on mere feeling, but on Torah sources??
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you go to Hadassah and ask Dr. lizman (not his real name) and he'll tell you all about it. While at it, ask him about the mental states of mr. Shmendrovits and mrs. malka of Aussie. Tell him you want facts and solid proof, shachor velavan kind. There are also copies of them in givat shaul II
ReplyDeleteHere are some Torah sources for you. Ever come across the Mishnah, Cheresh, shoite, vekoton, pgioson ro'oh. Can you explain us why so? And they don't even have to testify on their own behalf nor have to bring along a Certificate from R' K's so called Pshychiatrists. We are down now to the very basics, Torah, Halacha. If you can't or don't know machmas onso, or eino yodea machmas she'eino yodea etc, not a problem, we call Houston and they have all the right answers for us.
ReplyDeleteHere is some more, bevakasha.
ReplyDeleteR. Moses Schreiber (Hatam Sofer) as early as 1835 said that we can assume that mental illness was the cause of a suicide which seemed to have no reasonable explanation, ***** and permitted a full burial and mourning ritual.***** 31. Will that suffice?
Proof please. Kindly explain, if you can.
ReplyDeleteWhat happened to chezkas Tiflus?
ReplyDeleteHis chazaka you can pick up on the table in Tel Aviv, not sure on whose table, his or hers or the swingers. What he does have is Choizik. So much for Chazaka. If you keep on repeating it, even you might start to believe it.
ReplyDeleteNot sure if you really mean it, or lekanter.
ReplyDeleteSuppose for one moment he would. Therefore what?
ReplyDeleteProof please.
ReplyDeleteMoney talks and makes everything believable. And also exchanged hands.
ReplyDeleteAnd what is the truth, proof please.
ReplyDeleteExchanged hands, what?
ReplyDeleteBtw, Greatest anav has a very convincing narrative....
Oh, therefore, you are taking up someone's word who actually holds of takanos that YOU are railing against as at least part of the problem here. ...Btw, did the frum maspidim have anything to say against him? I think it was non frum talking more against "Chareidim" than him either. ...
ReplyDeleteIf he happens to be a getrayer chosid, does that diminsh her objections or his opinion about her. Haven't heard or read up about frum maspidim, have no facts nor proofs. What non frum have to say about chareidim, doesn't move me. Try to finnish a sentence instead of plugging in a series of dots.
ReplyDeleteIt is called lo yechratz gelt. I read up GA, t'was logical n' helpful filling in info. btw he is quoting from the book, is that good enough and (fool)proof as for the facts?
ReplyDeleteIf she was given a hesped and burial amongst others, you said that is legit for suiciders.
ReplyDeleteThe sentence finished, the dots are saying "v'idoch zil g'mor............." (you can also read between the lines! ....................................................
ReplyDeleteYou feel him being a getrayer Chossid has no relevance to any of the issues, I am not so sure. ...
Adaraba, with the source right in front of him, his conclusion vastly differs from yours. ...
ReplyDeleteHere is your own veidach, " her accusations are not believable. .." uma lach eitzel conclusions?
ReplyDeleteYour sentence is incoherent at best, much ado about nothing, nothing to read in between or outside of the lines. No train of thought, just making up sentences dynamically whatever comes to your mind.
ReplyDeleteWhat you are mesaper achar hamita about her fantasies and tendencies, FYI, she married a straight. Marrying such, gave her the satisfaction of all the fantasies without takaanos, and she did *not* - nor have a need to take her life over such issues. What she did commit suicide for, was the loss of her children that she could not console herself, velo matza margoah lenafsha. Putting aside whether she abandoned them or was tricked into it, or was forced, whatever the true reasons might be, at the end of the day, the instinct of a *Mother* is there forever, no matter how you slice it, she direly missed them. She also wanted her children to know *her* side of the story of what, how and why it happened, of which costed her life, and wrote it in Blood!
ReplyDeleteNever underestimate the feelings of the human heart of a Yiddishe Mamme, dying over her children. Veal todin es chavercho ad shetagia limkomo. Have you read her will of: In this City I have given birth to my children, in this City I have died for my children
His own opinions about Takunes is neither here nor there, the fact still remains that as far as his daughter is concerned she was tehora for 43 years and a great caring mother. Takunas comes and goes, some people drop it sooner or later and this problem was only in the beginning, and taking her life now had nothing to do with what was then, more so she lived now a different life. In a Democratic country, it's anyone's option to do as they please and I don't encroach on anybody's wishes.
ReplyDeleteTowards the end of the game, neither kept up with Takunes nor more serious issues. The pain of the Father and the greater family in losing his daughter is above and beyond pachim ktanim.
so you are saying that she had such love for her children she gave them the burden of living for the rest of their lives with a mother who deserted them. gave up yiddishkeit, spends her live helping others leave yiddishkeit, then commits suicide after writing a pornographic biography revealing to the whole world how perverted she and her husband acted - this is called an act of love of a true mother?! are you serious?
ReplyDeleteNot at all, my friend. If you have read the book, then you can kindly shed some light on the facts as they happened and why they happened. Her nervous breakdowns didn't happen out of thin air, that might explain why in her mind she left the fold. No one denied of her receiving compensation of 1.3 Million to keep silent about his siyutim and has taken a fall of which boomeranged, him using it against her and refused to honor the agreement if there was any, of her seeing the children, or even without any prior agreement. Indeed it was he that brought eternal shame to her children by unfairly feeding them as if she is the guilty party, blaming her for deserting them. She kept her promise of silence painfully and faithfully, but the price was much too high. Since this is beyond the capacity of any Human mother to withstand such pain, she was cumpulsed to exit and only then was she able to tell her side of the story with impunity to her children and the world, to get even with shlomo for his besmirching her all these years, and Yes, at the children's expense.
ReplyDeleteThe book she wrote, I would take with a few grains of salt for the following reasons for some, such as spicing it up as a novel for spreading the word, anger, bitterness, to spite, lashing back since it was religion that was used as kardom lachpor bah, payback time in pleasing those that gave her support when she needed it most, in trying to justify why she did what she did right or wrong. If you have a knack for it, you can peel off all or most of the dresssings to extract the essence. Veal tehi pessi ma'amin lechol dovor.
What we need here is more of answers as to what the facts were instead of asking endless questions, the sources are here, yovo ba'al hashor veya'amod al shoiro. After offering the facts first, then anyone and everyone can give their parshanut as in their interpretation the way they see it fit.
Also, it would be so much more honest to acknowledge a reply instead of sneaking in a few statements to make it look as if it had been there from Adam to make you look smart, outdoing an already given reply. It is unbecoming of a Tanna Kamma like you call yourself to come in from the back door without knocking first. So much for your animal Kingdom.
Here is what you spewed kelachar yad from the backdoor: bigneivas da'as ==>
"In this town I died for my children" ... after walking out on them, after embarrassing them by living the way she did, and ultimately bringing them eternal shame by publicizing her story. Yes, totally against the maternal nature even in the animal kingdom...
Nice try
If you read my reply to Tanna Kama of the Babba Kamma above, you will find that not everything people write or say is with all seriousness as the truth. Take it with a grain of salt, and I believe you have the wherewithal sense in doing so, if you only want. I think you already took tisha kavin share of the four++ Kushiyos, it would be highly appreciated if you can provide some facts for us to chew on.
ReplyDeleteWhy only for 43 years, according to to you, for 50 years! ...
ReplyDeleteI'm just saying that he's an illustration of someone who read the book and can still come out with a total differing conclusion. ....you see it can be done!...
ReplyDeleteThat means that if not for the money, the talk would be different. Sometimes the one who gives money is trying to influence the talk, other times, someone is very influenced by the prospect of receiving money and threatens to fabricate the talk...
ReplyDeleteYou ran out of talk and you spew forth shtussim. Get it straight and read through again what Ksus einayim is all about... that's exactly what it means....
ReplyDeletenothing new here. Shivim panim latora. The fact still remains, she says...he says... she says. You futched big time, but refuse to admit....
ReplyDeleteBecause according to the father *he says* 43 years, and I chose to believe *he says* over *your says*. My dear friend, time to rest your case. ...
ReplyDeleteAgain, a father's assumptions and testimony about their daughter cannot be used to cast aspirations on others; nor can Daddy's testimony turn daughter's bad activities into good ones.
ReplyDeleteIt's time for you to take off your kaleidoscope glasses about Esti Weinstein.
And is this how you go about firefighting mibayis lebayis ume'ir le'ir? Hazman yichle veheim lo yuchlu. Before you know it, you will run out of your wishful thinking. Time for a little honesty, don't you think?
ReplyDeleteKindly explain yourself in simple and concise English. Much thanks in advance!
ReplyDeleteDid you see her family's version of the story? (published in Yisrael Hayom, reported in Kikar Shabbos)
ReplyDeleteit's self explanetory
ReplyDelete