update Arutz 7
=====================================
update to update: The comment below was not written by Zvi Gluck of Amudim nor was it meant to convey the message that abusers should not be reported to the police or that abusers should not go to jail.
update: just received the following critical comment against this article for publication from someone who deals the child abuse and its consequences on a regular basis
==============================
Orthodox activists ask NY to change sex abuse reporting laws
Activists and victims to lobby New York's state capital demanding statute of limitations be lifted for child sex abuse.
Advocates for sexual abuse victims in the Orthodox Jewish
community will be descending on New York's state capital on May 3 to
lobby the legislature to eliminate the statute of limitations for child
sex abuse offenses.
A bill to change the statute of limitations has languished for years
in a state legislative committee committee, due in large part to
opposition from the Catholic Church and Agudath Israel of America.
The bill, known as the Child Victims Act, would "completely eliminate the civil statute of limitations for child sex abuse offenses in the future," according to SOL Reform, an advocacy group that is sponsoring a series of panels and news conferences May 3 and 4.
It would also suspend the civil statute of limitations for one year, during which time the accuser could bring a civil lawsuit against a private educational organization no matter how far back the alleged abuse dates.
While the bill passed the New York State Assembly, it has been blocked in the State Senate in the decade since it was introduced.
The bill, known as the Child Victims Act, would "completely eliminate the civil statute of limitations for child sex abuse offenses in the future," according to SOL Reform, an advocacy group that is sponsoring a series of panels and news conferences May 3 and 4.
It would also suspend the civil statute of limitations for one year, during which time the accuser could bring a civil lawsuit against a private educational organization no matter how far back the alleged abuse dates.
While the bill passed the New York State Assembly, it has been blocked in the State Senate in the decade since it was introduced.
=====================================
update to update: The comment below was not written by Zvi Gluck of Amudim nor was it meant to convey the message that abusers should not be reported to the police or that abusers should not go to jail.
update: just received the following critical comment against this article for publication from someone who deals the child abuse and its consequences on a regular basis
==============================
I was, and still am, opposed completely to the proposed Markey Law in NYS. It would have satisfied only the senseless, bloodthirsty fanatics who call themselves advocates, and falsely claim to save neshamos. That law would have accomplished nothing.
For abuse, there is a built in limitation, called time. Once at a certain point in time, presenting evidence becomes difficult, if not close to impossible. No one can be blamed for that – it is part of the creation that HKB”H fashioned. Even memories become less reliable, and may not be enough to convict. Yes, Hashem created a metziyus that would prevent someone from being charged and convicted. No legislature needs to make that into law, and those that do are blasphemous in trying to claim the metziyus for themselves.
There is, yet, another factor that must be considered. The role of publicity. Today, if someone makes a claim publicly against someone, it is not even tried in the court of public opinion, it is granted automatic conviction. That has been exploited by the “advocates” who are obsessed with destroying people. I count myself among those who are comfortable with exiling pedophiles to a child free island. If they expire there, there is rarely a loss for mankind. I am not nice about that.
But the ease with which someone’s life can be destroyed is not okay. The advocates are drunk with glee when there is an accusation to make. No investigation, no verification. And, yes, there are plenty of false claims. I have encountered plenty of them. It is not uncommon for parents to create the claim, when the children never suggested it. I don’t know percentages, and frankly do not care. False claims If we allow falsehood to become part of law, it trashes the credibility of the truth.
My two cents. I do not think this should get published.Simple reason – it will trigger the “advocates”, and this will divert the thread into a war.
There is a new organization called Amudim. For a change, it is dedicated to the welfare of the child, assisting in multiple ways. There is no focus on the media. It is a welcome (sadly needed) service to Klal Yisroel.
===================================
NY Daily News
The famous joke goes: two Jews, three opinions. Yet last week, more than 100 Jewish leaders from across the religious and ideological divides came together, with one voice, to declare their support for statute of limitations reform for child abuse victims in New York State.
Why statute of limitations reform, and why are Jewish leaders lining up behind this bill? Because it’s our obligation as men and women of faith who purport to help people heal. And it is, I believe, our obligation as followers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
After decades of denial, cover-ups and darkness, the light is finally shining on the scourge of child sexual abuse. Today, we better understand the high rate of its prevalence, the lasting and far-reaching damage caused by abusers, and the extreme difficulty survivors face in coming forward and seek justice. Tragically, New York State’s regressive laws prevent many victims from getting the justice they deserve and from stopping abusers from causing more harm.
While mental health experts have shown that it can take decades for a victim of child sexual abuse to overcome the fear, shame and trauma of abuse and come forward, our statutes allow someone to pursue criminal or civil justice only until the victim turns 23.
As a rabbi, I have met people in their 40s, 50s and 60s who are only now coming to grips with what happened to them as children, and only now able to come forward. New York law fails these victims by giving a victim only five years from the time they enter adulthood to act.
New York state has been ranked among the very worst, alongside Mississippi, Alabama and Michigan, for how the courts and criminal justice system treat survivors of child sex abuse.[...]
Thanks for sharing. I often wonder about the values involved - better (destroy one life ) let one or a few people suffer than close down a yeshivah. There seems to be no problem of being a Tzadik at the expense of others. if the government forced secular studies or boys to go to the army with the threat of closing down the yeshivah , I am sure we would see great Tzidkut and mesiros nefesh and the yeshivah would be closed. Maybe it is all about money or saving one's skin at the expense of others (AF) . The tragedy is that is people don't see the fact that many issues are moral ones - not halachik disputes deciding which way to pasken
ReplyDeleteMr. Hart, who claims to be a rabbi, is a graduate of YCT. Need more be said?
ReplyDeleteThe values involved are " may chozis dedamach sumkei tfei", you cannot save yourself at someone else's expense, more so if they are the victims. Yeshivas Volozhin was closed when their graduates became maskilim. The tragedy is that these children end up dying, whether OTD or overdosing, at the end of the day it is Dinei Nefoshos. Those claiming Messira are being mechapeh, chad vecholok and trying to save their own behinds 'tse uvdok', same goes as to why they offer ksus einayim not to press charges. Why then are they mafkir the children? What happened to lo sa'amod al dam re'acho, especially the young, the weak and frail that we are obligated to protect? If they are locked up, it is for good reason, no Messira as according to the Rashb"o and Mah"ram meRottenburg. They have a din of a Rodef, both as of a current in constant pursuit and in the long run when the victims end their lives to escape pain and misery. Where are the children's advocates. I haven't heard from Rabonim outside Bedat'z yerushalayim and R' Elyashiv, who and where are the meah rabonim of this headline?
ReplyDelete1. I love how he quotes halakha to the effect that there is no statute of limitations. How about the halakha that all disputes between Jews need to be decided in a beis din according to halakha, not in a secular court acc. to secular law? That somehow escapes him.
ReplyDelete2. The purpose of the statute of limitations is to protect defendants from defending against stale claims where evidence may no longer be available. Is it "justice" for a plaintiff in his "40s, 50s or 60s" (that is right from the article) to bring suit against an institution for events that happened when he was a child -- meaning 30 to 50 years before? In all likelihood, the people involved are either dead or senile, leaving only the plaintiff to testify about what happened decades before. How is that "justice?" (I know of one prominent case, it was widely reported a couple of years ago, where the head of the institution is now in his late 80s and partially senile. No way he could explain what happened or what he did.)
The statute of limitations in NY is three years from injury. This is extended during the entire time when the person is a child. Meaning if a child is abused, then he has till 21 to file suit. By then then person is an adult and should have a sense of what happened to him and who is responsible.
Fascinating comment. Maybe he's right. But the leadership vacuum has brought us here. Let's be direct: there are many who are not Open Orthodox that are uncomfortable with what they perceive as corruption or even (in this case) an inability to manage the situation effectively. All the more so for those further removed.
ReplyDeleteInto the vacuum runs the "advocates". Had it been filled with open, strong leadership they would have had no space to work.
Thanks for sharing the other perspective. My first comment focused on the point made in the original article that Jewish religious groups have been blocking Markey Bill. While I appreciate the concern for false claims imho I don't think that adding another 5 years - 23 to 28 makes such a big difference when the article says sometimes people in their 40s are only then ready to come forward. My concern - why are Jewish religious groups siding with the catholic church against the Bill ? The commentor imho fails to express this concern in simple english. - ' Even memories become less reliable, and may not be enough to convict. Yes, Hashem created a metziyus that would prevent someone from being charged and convicted. No legislature needs to make that into law, and those that do are blasphemous in trying to claim the metziyus for themselves.' - not sure what he is saying - for or against people blocking the law - it is one thing to block the law , another to campaign for the law
ReplyDeleteHalacha also requires a civil trial for damages be proven at trial with far far more proof than NY civil law requires.
ReplyDelete"How about the halakha that all disputes between Jews need to be decided in a beis din according to halakha, not in a secular court acc. to
ReplyDeletesecular law?"
I don't think this as clear as you imply:
http://www.jewishcommunitywatch.org/107-haredi-rabbis-declare-report-child-abuse-to-police/
Better attempt to discredit the person rather than the content? Need more be said?
ReplyDelete"There is a new organization called Amudim. For a change, it is dedicated to the welfare of the child, assisting in multiple ways."
ReplyDeletePlease can this commentator elaborate as to whether Amudim has ever assisted in ensuring a child sex abuser has been sent to jail?
1. Someone owes me a few hundred thousand dollars, but its a 25 year old matter. Maybe i should get a law passed to allow me to sue him now?
ReplyDelete2. This was tried about ten years ago with anti breast cancer medication, that people couldn't sue till years after administered. Insurance rates went up, and now all cancer medication is ridiculously expensive. Will this now happen with yeshivah tuition?
There is no concept of statute of limitations in 'halacha''
ReplyDeleteNeither is there a concept of 'jail' (as we know it) in halacha.
The News portrays his as an Orthodox Rabbi. He's not.
ReplyDeletethere is a concept of jail in halacha
ReplyDeleteWould you be able to do a post explaining the halachic concept of jail and when it is utilized?
ReplyDeleteIt is an open debate whether or not yct is an acceptable form of orthodoxy, and that debate has no place here in this discussion.
ReplyDeleteIt is very telling that you chose not to debate the main contents of what is presented, rather, you choose to undermine the person and divert the discussion to a tangent.
I bring the sources in my source book for child abuse
ReplyDeleteProf Simcha Assaf mentions them in his book on punishment which is availabe from Hebrew books
Not 'jail' as we (generally) know it.
ReplyDeleteMore like 'makkot', 'eved ivri' and financial.
And not (necessarily) for these types of 'predator' crimes.
The key to remember is that בית דין מכין ועונשין שלא מן התורה (Sanhedrin 46a). The batei dinim had the right to give whatever punishments they believed necessary to keep order in society, for whatever types of "crimes." They could even give the death penalty for actions that were by Torah law entirely permitted if they deemed it necessary. That is why it is so mindless when people say things like "the punishment for rape according to halacha is paying 50 shekels." No, that is what the Torah dictates as the minimum financial remuneration. The batei dinim could punish a rapist in any manner they saw fit.
ReplyDeleteAlthough victims of abuse are to be heard and protected, I am concerned that a "stretching" of the SOL might give rise to other "supposed victim groups" like the fake feminist Aguna movements to also empower them and to come after their divorced spouses for nonesense claims against them after their conclusion of their divorce. see this anti feminist video that exposes the "fake feminist movement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmzH9MHKC7s
ReplyDeleteThe concept of Jail is in:
ReplyDeleteVayikra 24:12, Vayanichuhu bamishmor
Bamidbar 15:34 Vayanichu oso bamishmar
Bamidbar 35:11, Vehikrisem lochem orim orei miklat
In Talmud when a menace to society is given over to the authorities putting them in jail
Same in Shulchan Aruch
Ditto in Sh'ut when endangering the welfare of the public removing them from society
You're saying beis din could give the death penalty for someone eating a non-kosher sandwich?
ReplyDeleteYou have it backwards. Sof ganav latliya. These fake Agunot got stung big time, and many got their hands caught in the cookie jar having to admit it in front of the whole wide world. They are yet not completely done with, much more to come. Vehoelokim yevakesh et hanirdaf! Ein eitso ve'ein tvuno neged Hashem. Both Issues have a smoking trail all the way to the Top. That is the reason why both of these Organizations are against the Markey Bill. They have something to hide.
ReplyDeleteIt is your comment that displays an obsession with money, save perhaps for item #3.
ReplyDeleteAs for #3, it is your lack of understanding of what 'justice' is for these victims that allows you to overlook the importance of rectifying the past.
More Jail along with passive capital punishment, in Sanhedrin 81: of which fits MO to case at hand
ReplyDeleteפא: הנשרפין פרק תשיעי סנהדרין
מתני׳ ההורג
נפש שלא בעדים מכניסין אותו לכיפה ומאכילין אותו
לחם צר ומים
לחץ: גמ'
' מתני׳ 'שלא בעדים. שלא ניתן לב״ד להרגו: - Rashi
****************************************
גמ' אמר רב ששת אידי
ואידי נותנין לו לחם צר ומים לחץ עד שיוקטן מעיינו והדר מאכילין אותו
שעורין עד שכריסו מתבקעת:
If might also lead to mixed dancing!
ReplyDeleteContinuation to point 3 above:
ReplyDeleteAnd or waive the SOL against the perpetrators, but no vicarious liability (i.e., not against their employer.)
Now they can have 'blood', but no / limited money.
(Note' news report today in NY area about a video going around on line of a KJ school administrators molesting a youth for 15 minutes. Reports are prosecutors are not investigating.)
Yes
ReplyDeleteWould never happen. Once you figure in all the requires for warning and acknowledging of the warning along with the specific wording for each you'd have a situation as follows:
ReplyDeleteWarner) If you eat that sandwich you will be chayav misah (mitah if it's a Sephardi eating) through {insert type of execution here}
Criminal) I acknowledge your warning and that I am committing a sin for which the penalty is {insert type of execution here} but even so I will eat this sandwich.
Judge) Only a shoteh would be so stupid as to acknowledge the warning when ignoring it would mean not being able to convict him and we don't executes shotim!
First, consider the intention. Are those blocking the bill truly interested in justice or in covering their collective arses?
ReplyDeleteSecond, let's reword this and make it about old Nazis. Let's say they find a new high ranking Nazi somewhere in the States who has managed to avoid arrest until now. Will the same heiliger advocates who are insisting on a statute of limitations also defend the Nazi officer on the same grounds?
It's an open debate as much as Crimea is debated to be sovereign Russian territory
ReplyDeletethe above does not apply to Choshen Mishpat 2
ReplyDeleteשו"ע חושן משפט - סימן ב
סימן ב - בית דין היו מכין ועונשין לצורך שעה:
(א) כל בית דין, אפילו אינם סמוכים בא"י, אם רואים שהעם פרוצים בעבירות (ושהוא צורך שעה) (טור), היו דנין בין מיתה בין ממון, בין כל דיני עונש, ואפילו אין בדבר עדות גמורה. ואם הוא אלם, חובטים אותו על ידי עובדי כוכבים. (ויש להם כח להפקיר ממונו ולאבדו כפי מה שרואים (לגדור פרצת הדור) (טור בשם הרמב"ם בפרק כ"ד מסנהדרין). וכל מעשיהם יהיו לשם שמים; ודוקא גדול הדור, או טובי העיר שהמחום ב"ד עליהם: הגה - וכן נוהגין בכל מקום שטובי העיר בעירן כב"ד הגדול, מכין ועונשין, והפקרן הפקר כפי המנהג; אעפ"י שיש חולקין וס"ל דאין כח ביד טובי העיר באלה, רק להכריח הצבור במה שהיה מנהג מקדם או שקבלו עליהם מדעת כולם, אבל אינן רשאים לשנות דבר במידי דאיכא רווחא להאי ופסידא להאי, או להפקיע ממון שלא מדעת כולם (מרדכי פ' הגוזל בתרא), מכל מקום הולכין אחר מנהג העיר; וכל שכן אם קבלום עליהם לכל דבר, כן נ"ל (ועיין בי"ד סימן רכ"ח דיני תקנות וחרמי צבור). כתבו האחרונים בתשובותיהם דמי שנתחייב מלקות, יתן ארבעים זהובים במקום מלקות (מהרי"ו סימן קמ"ז ומהר"ם מריזבורק) ; ולאו דינא קאמר, אלא שהם פסקו כך לפי שעה, אבל ביד הב"ד להלקותו או ליטול ממון כפי ראות עיניהם, לפי הענין, למגדר מלתא (וע"ל ריש סימן תכ"ה בהג"ה):
the news report is false - see latest post
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/05/police-investigate-video-of-principal.html
Is the S"A you quoted indicating this halacha is applicable bzman hazeh? After all, S"A is a listing of the halachas applicable today.
ReplyDeleteYou answered your own question - yes it is applicable today - assuming the secular goverment allows it.
ReplyDeleteYes. The even gave the death penalty to someone for riding a horse on Shabbat.
ReplyDeleteSo the halacha l'maaisa b'zman hazeh, where the government gives the Jewish community legal autonomy and empowers the Jewish courts as they had in Europe prior to the emancipation, is that a beis din kavua could impose a death sentence today?
ReplyDeletetheoretically yes or do you think the Shulchan Aruch means otherwise?
ReplyDeleteNo. Just clarifying my understanding is in sync with yours.
ReplyDeletethat is open to interpretation.
ReplyDeleteis justice, money, or punishment? or both?
and does that apply to the (often complicit) employer, or just the offender?
or is rectifying supposed top mean counseling? (which may or may not work.)
i'm sure the ukranian chabad rabbonim oppose the russian chabad rabbonim.
ReplyDeletethe russian chabad is very much in the pocket of putin.
they even oppose returning the frierdiker rebbe's library to ny / us.
if it would be relevant, it would be a big schism within chabad.
I am extremely reluctant to speak for survivors, as I do not know how they would define justice.
ReplyDeleteThat said, however, I don't see why the requirement of vidui should not be the first step for any implicated individual or employer. And your initial comment to ignore the past in favor of the future would bury that acknowledgement forever.
Once that acknowledgement happens, then a discussion of rectification can occur. And I think everyone would acknowledge that real damage has been done. That's why I found your insinuation that this is a money grab so inappropriate.