Update: I noticed today that the saplings had in fact not been broken and taken for burning - perhaps the boys took their "avodah" elsewhere after I objected. If so then the claim that this was just a case of "boys will be boys" is obviously wrong.
==========================
As soon as Pesach is over, it is common to see groups of young boys – roaming the neighborhood looking for flammable material to add to their personal bonfire. It is truly amazing to see the cooperative efforts to drag heavy boards or tree branches a number blocks to where they construct the structure for their "medura".
==========================
As soon as Pesach is over, it is common to see groups of young boys – roaming the neighborhood looking for flammable material to add to their personal bonfire. It is truly amazing to see the cooperative efforts to drag heavy boards or tree branches a number blocks to where they construct the structure for their "medura".
While it would be nice to say they are budding kabbalists for whom the Rashbi is a major inspiration in their life or that they have parents who tremble when they study the Zohar – that is not really what is happening. The issue is more akin to the excitement of avoda zara and the once a year opportunity to be allowed to make a really big fire using material that they have exerted tremendous energy and ingenuity to gather.
On my way from shul today I witnesss the sight of trees moving very strangely. When I got closer I saw a group of about 10 eight year old yeshiva boys trying to break down a series of ten foot saplings that were growing by the fence that enclosed the grounds of an apartment building. I went over and told them to stop it – which they did. They were genuinely puzzled and asked what the problem was.
I asked them who gave them permission to destroy living trees. Is this your building? Did your parents tell you that you could do this? When they realized what was bothering me they called out enthusiastically in unison, "It's for Lag B'Omer!"
I said why are the laws of stealing or damaging public property being ignored?
Again they answered cheerful in unison, "It's for Lag B'Omer". Obviously they felt sorry that I couldn't comprehend such an elementary fact. But they respectfully and patiently answering the irrelevant questions of someone who simply didn't get it.
At that point I just left. They could not conceive that anything could stand in the way of a proper bonfire. It didn't matter that these young saplings would grow to be shade trees in a few years that would give pleasure on hot summer days. It didn't matter that the green saplings would probably not burn. It didn't matter that they hadn't consulted with the residents of the apartment building to see if it was o.k. All that mattered to them was that the saplings were made of wood and that their bonfire required wood. All that mattered was the exciting challenge of finding out how to bend and break these young trees relying entirely on their childish strength and youthful enthusiasm. Once a year they knew they could break anything that might be flammable without regard to whom it belonged to or what damage they were causing.
The Torah is being burned to celebrate Lag b'Omer.
Should ask if the adults also act in this way. More serious a problem is the annual number of injuries from fires that occur to the participants in this affair.
ReplyDeleteHevel havalim. All is vanity.
40 years ago no chassidishe kehilos (and certainly not litvishe) made fires except for 1 or maybe 2. Today all are doing it. I thought chassidim only did minhagim that is part of their mesora, but this minhag has caught on like wild fire. Now they say all kinds of pshatim and inyanim and segulas about it. All new made up stuff. I guess if kids need some sort of fun, this is probably better than lots of other things that they might otherwise do. Provided of course that they don't break any halachos or any rules of mentchlichkeit.
ReplyDeleteHow can it be better than playing football for example? There is no environmental destruction (or very little) in playing regular games.
ReplyDeleteBoys will be boys.
ReplyDeleteThere is nothing wrong with environmental destruction for a constructive purpose, i.e. fun.
ReplyDeleteFootball can cause physical injury, and is sometimes quite dangerous. Would you prefer broken bones to broken trees?
Are we not being a bit harsh on the eight year-olds? They are completely wrong for taking trees that do not belong to them. But as little kids, trees of a large forest or trees of a big building are the same. They see them both as ownerless.
ReplyDeleteHow can it be better than playing football
ReplyDeleteWhy is it exclusive? It is not an option of one or the other.
Secondly, I hope that you do realize that there big pushes going on to change the rules of football to make it less violent. And if you meant European football, well, the riots and violence that they have brought out should speak for themselves.
Live branches do make for a good fire, anyway.
ReplyDeleteConstruction wood is pressure treated -- arsenic. Not too healthy, to put it mildly. But nobody cares. Not these young mothers, who don't know about health.
Football is good too.
ReplyDeletenot being hard on the 8 year olds - I am concerned about their educational environment - home and school - which either teaches the message or doesn't bother correcting it.
ReplyDeletethat is a universal heter that justifies crimes from stealing to murder
ReplyDeleteRambam writes somewhere that there is nothing better than to kick around a ball for a while. Not so concerned about the trees, but the fires, which are worse than the occasional bruise.
ReplyDeleteSome CHILDREN, out of ignorance, "burn the Torah for Lag Ba'omer".
ReplyDeleteHowever many readers of this blog are aware, there are ADULTS, who willfully "burn the Torah" all year round...
The same people who burn plastic garbage cans in their neighbourhoods during protests again one alleged Zionist crime or another are hardly likely to care about arsenic, which isn't even mentioned in the Torah or Shas.
ReplyDeleteLike the bochur I once saw trying to scam a free ride on a public bus. I threw a token into the till for him and he told me not to bother. I asked him who had made theft permissible and he said it was okay because he didn't want to be late for his next class in yeshiva.
ReplyDeleteIn a culture where people are judged by the suit and hat they wear and nothing more, are you surprised?
Uhmm -- no. Boys will be girls. Girls will be boys. Please get with the program.
ReplyDeleteYes, the adults that used to be these kids and who now assault women who sit in the wrong section on the bus and when you ask them if physical assault is okay they shout "Tznius!"
ReplyDeleteIn a culture where people are judged by the suit and hat they wear and nothing more,
ReplyDeleteWhich culture is that? Not one that I'm familiar with.
It's not a heter, it's a statement of fact. And it is meant to apply to mischief such as you describe, not murder and other serious crimes.
ReplyDeleteWas the Rambam talking about football? I don't think so. So citing him is not relevant to my point.
ReplyDeleteIn any case, I think all this is making molehill into a mountain. As I wrote above, boys will be boys. They get into things. They break stuff. They'll grow out of it.
Actually it's the adults who come onto blogs to throw out false accusations against a whole group of good people. Like you.
ReplyDeleteAnother question: when a Reformative says "I don't care about kashrus but I'm big into tzedakah" we sneer at him. Why don't we do the same with an Orthodox Jew who, through his actions, is saying "I don't care about theft but I love Lag BaOmer"?
ReplyDeleteSimple answer is the frum person says he in fact is committed to the whole Torah - just that there are heterim in certain situations. The Reform simply throws away the halacha and says it is not needed
ReplyDeletesorry I missed what halachic category we are talking about. Is the action mutar or assur? Kids are taught from an early age that something is assur or mutar. The point that I am making is that this is indicative of a hole in their education.
ReplyDeleteA story to illustrate. There were two boys learning in Yeshiva of Staten Island under Rav Reuven Feinstein. One of them borrowed a taperecorder from the second and didn't take proper care of it. It got broken. The owner said pay me for the machine and the second one said it was an accident and I owe you nothing. I didn't break it.
They went to Rav Reuven and were shocked to see his angusihed expression. "We have been learning the sugya of shomrim for a whole zman - why don't you understand that those halachos are applicable to this case?
These kids will agree that stealing is bad. That baal tashchis is wrong, etc etc. However they don't connect what they were doing with the halachic category or rather they thought there was no problem because Lag BOmer is so important that everything is hefker.
Excusing this by saying "boys will be boys" is simply denying responsibility for educating them or that they are capable of understanding the halacha
Try this experiment: take two non-religious guys, put one in a nice modern outfit, the other in the standard black suit and hat, send them into your average Chareidi shul and see which one gets an aliyah first.
ReplyDeleteThey didn't have football in those days. A little sporting activity might be good for boys, it can be softball, or soccer or whatsoever. But remember what our master Koheleth teaches:
ReplyDeleteא וּזְכֹר, אֶת-בּוֹרְאֶיךָ, בִּימֵי, בְּחוּרֹתֶיךָ: עַד אֲשֶׁר
לֹא-יָבֹאוּ, יְמֵי הָרָעָה, וְהִגִּיעוּ שָׁנִים, אֲשֶׁר תֹּאמַר אֵין-לִי
בָהֶם חֵפֶץ.
and if you sent the same 2 actors to a Modern shul?
ReplyDeleteNo idea who will get the aliyah first, and I doubt you've ever tried the experiment. But just to play along with your bias, suppose the chareidi-dressed guy gets the aliyah first, how does that prove your claim that this is "a culture where people are judged by the suit and hat they wear and nothing more?" How does the giving of an aliyah equate to judging people?
ReplyDeleteIt's quite a jump from "is it mutar or assur" to excusing murder.
ReplyDeleteAre you denying that there is a phenomenon of boys getting wild and therefore doing things that are wrong? It's quite common. It doesn't mean that the boys have a huge hole in their chinuch; it means they are boys. Meaning, they do something wrong b/c it's just so much fun, and as they get older, they realize that it really wasn't the right thing to do, and they improve. That's my experience with any number of wild kids from my youth. I'd be far more worried if you saw adults stealing and said they found nothing wrong with it despite agreeing that stealing is forbidden. With kids doing kid things, not so much. As they mature, their vision will become clearer, and so their behavior will improve.
Unfortunately it is not just "boys" who act this way. It is sad to say there are "rabbis", whether they be kollel members, synagogue leaders or even "gedolim", who cannot see their own actions burning the Torah as surely as if they lit the parchment with a torch.
ReplyDeleteMy point was specifically the violence in football.
ReplyDeleteWhat's your point with the Koheles quote?
They will not get an aliyah in 90% of Modern Orthodox shuls. You must be a member - and pay a membership fee - to get an aliyah in 90% of Modern Orthodox shuls that still have a full house.
ReplyDeleteActually I have tried the experiment. I've also tried the kippah flipping experiment with great success.
ReplyDeleteNo, it's the rabbis who rape young women and then claim its a mitzvah, just like the next post R' Eidensohn put up.
ReplyDeleteYou made an accusation about experimenting with aliyos. I called you out for you lie - since about 90% of Modern Orthodox shuls that have a full house will not give an aliya to someone who is not a member. Have you answered this?
ReplyDeletePicking a single case of person who has done wrong and somehow attempt to use it besmirch a whole group of people is ludicrous.
Gittin 19a (see haMetargem before the maharsha.)
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4808264,00.html
ReplyDeleteFire in Jerusalem - hevel havalim, for "lag b'omer".