I would like to bring some sources which indicate that secular learning is important - not just because it is required by the government. I will be adding sources and commentaries over a few days - so check back for updates.
[I] Shabbos(75a): R. Zutra b. Tobiah said in Rab's name: … he who is able to calculate the cycles4 and planetary courses but does not, one may not praise him … R. Simeon b. Pazzi said in the name of R. Joshua b. Levi on the authority of Bar Kappara: He who knows how to calculate the cycles and planetary courses, but does not, of him Scripture saith, but they regard not the work of the Lord, neither have they considered the operation of his hands.7 R. Samuel b. Nahmani said in R. Johanan's name: How do we know that it is one's duty to calculate the cycles and planetary courses? Because it is written (Devarim 4:6), "for this is your wisdom and understanding in the sight of the peoples", what wisdom and understanding is in the sight of the peoples?9 Say, that it is the science of cycles and planets.
Rashi (Shabbos 75a): In the eyes of the nations – because it is a self-evident wisdom because the accuracy of his words is testified by the movement of the sun and constellations. For example he says that this year will be rainy and it is is in fact so or that this year will be hot and it is so. That is because the nature of the seasons are determined by the movement of the sun and the constellations and their influence. Everything is determined by the stars and the time that the sun moves and interacts with the stars
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We see from the above that it is important for a Jew to be knowledgeable about astronomy and astrology
1) The goyim view it as wisdom and therefore a Jew who lacks this wisdom is viewed as inferior This principle means that a Jew does not have basic knowledge of science, history or biology is viewed as inferior and surely if he has trouble speaking or reading the lanuage of the land. This is a chilul Hashem.
2) Being able to predict events because they are caused by the mechanical and fixed movements of the stars shows that idolatry is wrong. That is because the predictions from the movements are rule governed and thus there is no need for appealing to the god of the sun or other heavenly bodies.
[II] Rav Yisroel Belsky told me that his success in dealing with kashrus processes - and his ability to deal with these issues better than other rabbis - was due to the fact that he took his secular studies seriously. It is obviously that if one wants to deal with metzius issues that one needs to have the basic background in physics, biology, and chemistry. A basic understanding of the scientific method of validation. Being able to read precisely and to be able to communicate accurately in writing as well as speech.
From Making of a Gadol
From Making of a Gadol
My father related that he was told by someone whose oldest son had just reached school age that he had decided not to send the child to a school with secular studies so that the boy would be able to devote all his time to learning Torah. My father protested, "But your son will be unable to read even the street signs to know where he is standing." When the unbending father replied, "R' Hayyim Soloveichik also did not read Russian," our protagonist, who felt that the child's development would be impeded altogether by the abnormal education his father was charting for him, argued, "Yes, but R' Hayyim had a shamosh who knew Russian and read the signs while escorting him through the streets. Do you expect your son to have a shamosh when he grows up?"
It is noteworthy that when asked as an octogenarian whether young students at a Monsey yeshiva may be permitted to read light English literature (which would pass faculty censorship), my father- with the caveat that he would be "considered a leftist" for the ruling - referred to this experience of his own to prove that such reading is not harmful. He mentioned that he read Russian translations of such classics as the science fantasies of Jules Verne and the Sherlock Holmes stories of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle :. He added that the licentiousness of present-day society and literature mandates that contemporary secular books be carefully screened before being put onto a permitted-reading list. The principal of the secular department in Mesivta Torah Vodaath, R' Moshe Lonner, reported d that my father suggested students study certain plays by Shakespeare "because in olden times there was less reference to topics to which yeshiva bahurim should not be exposed", and referred to his own reading of these classics in the Russian language. (He added at the time that we should not think that people of the Elizabethan and Victorian ages were better than those of latter times - "there was simply more ,nr, [shame] then".)
Also like my father, R' Aaron Kotler dabbled in secular studies at this time. He was more interested in literature than in the sciences which attracted my father's interest. My father stated to his son-in-law R' Yisrael Shurin that R' Aaron was proficient in all of classical Russian literature'L This was corroborated when, during a visit with a young, intellectual protoge of the Hazon-Ish who headed a yeshiva in Ramlah, R' Aaron blurted out, "This was expounded by Aleksander Pushkin" - as reported to this author by the yeshiva head '. The Ramlah Yeshiva was visited by R' Aaron Kotler, R' Shmuel Graineman and the Kopycznitzer Rebbe, R' Avrohm-Yehoshua' Heschel, in the summer of 5714 (1954). At the same time, Moshe Bar-Sela', director of the Labor and Social Affairs Ministry and a Pushkin buff, dropped by for a glass of tea and a chat - people were wont to stop off in Ramlah on the then long drive from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv. When Bar-Sela' quoted a line from the poem Yevgeni On'yegin without naming the author, R' Aaron reacted as reported. (Pushkin was a Russian author favored in Jewish intellectual circles. This author came across an interview of French Jewish philosopher Emmanuel Levinas by Francois Poiri in "Emmanuel Levinas, Qui etes-vous?? ''° which has the thinker relating, "A few years ago an Israeli born in Eastern Europe paid me a visit. Upon entering my home, he noticed that I had the complete works of Pushkin on the bookshelves. 'You can see right away,' he said, 'that this is a Jewish home.'"
[to be continued]
These sources aren't speaking of any and all secular subjects. For example, American History is a mandatory subject in most elementary and high school secular studies curriculums, yet the above sources don't give a Torah justification for focusing on that secular subject. Other subjects in the typical curriculum would be similar in this regard.
ReplyDeleteThank you!
ReplyDeleteThere was a time when I was opposed to Rav Dessler's position, and I would mention it when this subject came up. I am now seeing certain parts of his ideas on bitachon much clearer. That is as far as parnassa is concerned. The above post is closer the the ideas attributed to the Gra by R' Baruch of Shklov.
ReplyDeleteWhile you might be right, maybe you should write a post how important it is to learn Torah. You first need your ikar to be solid before you venture to tafull. Especially if your mission is trying to earn fan Eden why waste time learning unimportant things to the big picture. The Gemara never says to learn these things from goyish places. Everything is in the Torah if you know how to find it. Secondly where do you see 'history' from that Gemara?
ReplyDeleteThe Rama 246:4 rules explicitly that it is absolutely prohibited according to Halachah to engage in a curriculum of secular studies. To read secular studies now and then, is permitted, he says. The source of the Rama is the Yerushalmi Sanhedrin.
ReplyDeleteIt has been suggested the difference between a curriculum and just a glance, is that this prohibition is not due to Bitul Torah but rather a Bizayon HaTorah, by establishing studies in areas other than Torah, it shows that you believe they have some value that would justify learning them when you could have been learning Torah.
Rav Shimon Schwab ZT'L sought the Torah opinions of two great authorities, Rav Boruch Ber Liebowitz ZT'L and Rav Elchonon Wasserman ZT'L, regarding college education. Their responses were as follows:
Conclusion of Birkas Shmuel (Kiddushin #27 p.42):
"What emerges is (a) that according to the Torah the obligation of Banim Ubeni Banim means you must make your children into Geonei and Chachmei Torah - and not merely to prepare them for life as a Jew. But rather, you must teach them and get them to learn the entire Torah, and if chas v'sholom you do not, you violate the entire Mitzvah of learning Torah as per Banim Ubnei Banim.
(b) Universities and gymnasiums (i.e. secondary schools) are prohibited because of Apikursus [that they teach]. My Rebbi (i.e. Rav Chaim Soloveichik ZT'L) prohibited them even in war time, and even to save a life, for to avoid violating this, even a Jewish life is to be spent.
(c) To learn secular studies on a regular basis is prohibited, as per the Rama 246:4 ...
Brothers, please do Teshuva while there is still time, for the enlightenment (Haskalah) has blinded our eyes and weakened us. For we have no benefit in this world at all - both spiritually and physically - except from Torah. All the strength of Klall Yisroel is from the Torah ... we should do Tehsuva and repair the Batei Medrashos that have been broken by the Enlightenment."
Kovetz Shiurim II:47:
Question: Under what circumstances is it permitted to learn secular studies?
Answer:
(a) If you must learn books that contain apikursus, it is prohibited ... needless to say even to make money or to prevent a loss thereof.
(b) If you must sit in school with Goyim, and it causes someone to befriend the Goyim and their ways, it is prohibited as per the Lo Saseh of Hishomer Lecha etc. for the Torah commanded us to distance ourselves from the Goyim in every way...
(c) If the studies do not cause you to learn Apikursus or to befriend Goyim, and you learn secular studies in order to know a skill to make a living, it is permitted, and it is a Mitzvah. However, this is only in general. But if a person sees that his son wants to learn Torah and he is prepared to be a Gadol B'Torah, in such a case R. Nehuray said: "I will forgo all skills in the world and teach my son only Torah."...
(d) If you don't need the studies for Parnasa, and you just want to be involved in them, there is reason to prohibit because of Bitul Torah, as per the Rama in YD 246, who writes that it is forbidden to learn secular studies on a regular basis....perhaps it is not due to Bitul Torah but rather it ia an affront to the honor of the Torah ... someone who set out to learn secular subjects indicates that he believes that they have a purpose in and of themselves [besides for parnasa], and that is against the Torah's opinion. [see above]..."
Reb Elchonon continues, saying that the confusion in Germany happened when people thought, mistakenly, that by Jews possessing secular knowledge the Goyim will hate them less. This caused a "negiyos" - a vested interest - that caused the German Jews to desire that their rabbis have a secular education as well.
Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT'L also denounced college in a Teshuva, and in a famous speech delivered to his students, published under the title "The Counsel of the Wicked" (Vaad LeHaromas Keren HaTorah, New York, 1978). There he reiterates that everyone has an obligation to become great in Torah, we should not care so much about Cadillac's (yes, this was said in the "olden days"), and that learning Torah is what we should be pursuing, not secular stuff. He says in America you do not need college to make a Parnassa, and we should be willing to live on little, not a lot, for the sake of Torah, and that R. Nehuray's statement of abandoning all skills in favor of Torah applies all that more today that we live in a country where you can make a parnassa without college, with no miracles needed.
ReplyDelete(As an aside, the standard of livelihood required is bare minimum. "Kach hi darkah shel torah - pas b'melach tochal etc." - Bread, salt and water - if you have that, you have parnasah. The Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis works 3 hours a day and learns 8.)
There is a tape available in many Seforim stores called "The prohibition to learn in Colleges" (Yiddish), which contains addresses by Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT'L and Rav Aharon Kotler ZT'L condemning college.
Regarding High School, the only reasons it is allowed is either because education is mandated by State Law (in New York it is until age 17), or simply because if they did not have High School education in the Yeshivas, parents would simply send their kids to worse places to get it.
ReplyDeleteBut it is definitely looked upon not as a l'chatchilah, but rather as something that is annoyingly necessary in the current environment.
Today, there are a small number of High Schools in America - particularly in Lakewood - that do not teach English. Also, many Yeshivos do try to reduce the amount of secular studies as much as possible, through knocking out the last semester of English, and a number of kids are leaving HS early to enter Bais Medrash.
Rav Chaim Segal ZT'L, the Menahel of the High School at Yeshiva Chaim Berlin was once told by Rav Shach ZT'L that if possible, he should not be teaching English studies. In Eretz Yisroel, almost all Chareidi Yeshivos do not have English at that age. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT'L made some kind of commitment not to allow English studies on the HS level in Lakewood. The exact details, and if this was actually a Takanah or merely a preference, is not clear and depends who you ask. In any case, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a student of Rav Aharon's, was asked why he allows English in Philly if Rav Aharon was against it. What difference can there be between the town of Lakewood NJ and Philadelphia PA? Reb Elya answered that he has no choice, and that currently, the Baalei Batim would not send their kids to the Yeshiva except under these circumstances.
Is any of this the ideal? No. It is not. Is it justified? The schools say it is, as they have no choice. But the point is not what the Jews do, its what Judaism wants. Everyone agrees that it would be a higher level, a preferable situation if we would indeed not learn English even at the HS level, at least not beyond what is necessary to survive. Nobody claims it is an ideal.
The Chasam Sofer in Parsha Beshalach states clearly that certain secular knowledge is useful for learning certain Torah topics, such as cow anatomy being useful for shechitah, and arithmetic for Eruvin and Sukkah. But that before we embark on obtaining secular knowledge - and of course that means only to the extent that it is useful for our Torah studies - we must first fill ourselves with Torah-only knowledge. After we are strong in Torah, only then can we move to acquire the useful secular knowledge that we need for our Torah studies.
ReplyDeleteHe quotes the Rambam, who he describes as "the father of philosophy" in our religion, in Hilchos Yesodei HaTorah, stating that a person may not learn philosophy until after he has "filled his stomach" with Shas and Poskim, which are the things, and only the things, that bring us Olam Habah. Then he quotes the Rashba, saying that there is a cherem against learning any secular studies if you are under age 25! The he quotes the Gemora in Brachos "Keep your children away from science" (higayon, as some meforshim translate it), noting that the Gemora is directing its prohibition at "your children", but not at the adults, for adults, who are already advanced in Torah knowledge, need some secular knowledge, such as cow biology (I keep emphasizing that so that we do not make the error of thinking that the secular knowledge that we need is a college education). But it is dangerous for us to pursue it until we are armed and ready with a Torah foundation. This is because someone with a Torah perspective looks at the value and culture of of secular studies differently than does someone ignorant of Torah. And we do want to get the proper perspective.
It's kind of like firemen putting out a fire. They have to (a) dress in their heat-resistant protective outfits, and (b) run into the fire and put it out. But of course, they have to do it in the right order.
And that is indeed what it boils down to - do we value the Torah's standards of education more than that of the secular world or vice versa? The choice is simple: All the secular "education" that you get will be useless to you in the next world. There, they will not ask you if you know how many US presidents were re-elected in history, or whether you are familiar with the policies of Chairman Mao, or if you know how to program a computer. They will bring a Sefer Torah scroll to you and ask "do you know what it says in here?" The more you know of that, the more you will be considered "educated". The less you know, the more you will be considered ignorant. So the question is - do I want to be educated on this world or on the next?
And please note, there is no minimum threshold for the amount of Torah you are obligated to know. The rule is: more is better; less is worse. And the difference between just a little more and a little less is staggering. As the Vilna Gaon points out, one word of Torah knowledge gives you more holiness than an entire lifetime's worth of doing other Mitzvos.
And here we thought that a secular education is expensive! Its much more expensive than you think - you can acquire it only at the expense of your time and effort that you could have been putting toward becoming educated in Olam Habah.
Two things, though. First, the prohibition is only to learn secular studies as a regular curriculum. To read about them occasionally in your spare time is permitted.
what was his heter to learn secular knowledge in elementary school and high school?
ReplyDeleteReb Elchonon also discusses in his responsum the point about women not having an issur of bitul Torah. He says that girls would also be prohibited if the prohibition is due to the affront to Kovod HaTorah involved with college, but if the prohibition is only due to Bitul Torah, it seems he is not certain. His words are:
ReplyDelete"If the prohibition is due to Bitul Torah, maybe it applies only to men but not to women, but the truth is, women are also obligated to learn the Halachos that pertain to them in order to fulfill the Mitzvos.
"Or perhaps, even without this reason [of Bitul Torah] it is prohibited to learn secular studies regularly, so as not to give them value like the value of the Torah...."
He does not come to a conclusion regarding this.
Problem is that Chasam Sofer did not follow the above in Pressburg
ReplyDeleteIgros Moshe EH 2:1:
ReplyDelete"My outlook is based only on knowledge of Torah whose ways are truth, without any influence of secular studies."
Is it Shklov or Sokolov?
ReplyDeletePlease provide the context. It does not say that Rav Moshe did not know secular knowledge but that they did not influence his decision.
ReplyDeleteHe made that statement in regard to permitting artificial insemination. Satmar objectred that even the Catholic Church knew it was wrong. To which he replied the above.
A point that must be made that these days secular studies and learning a trade (which all agree is required) are very closely intertwined.
ReplyDeleteApart from the actual curriculum proper school education provides a methodology for life, organisational and structural skills, striving to improve rather than just coasting along, respect and tolerance and similar. And in school you actually get properly tested, and need to get things correct. Unlike many yeshivos where there in proper feedback system and if there is it is not taken seriously.
There is a direct inverse correlation between a secular education and politeness, respect and tolerance for others and non Jews. These are all torah values.
Hence the sources brought that prohibit secular studies are not necessarily relevant today. They cannot be brought to create an issur on what a large segment of klal yisroel do.
A new analysis is needed.
No idea - I have seen it written as Shklov.
ReplyDeleteIts really a question on psak as well. There are some poskim who know the metzius more and some who only know the Halacha. So should a posek research into the metzius and mechanics behind it or not? Or do you say the Torah knows the metzius and you don't need to look further? Like we see from shabas 33, even after going through shas, still not being allowed to learn Greek and secular subjects. (and the snake story) (But We do see from Sanhedrin rava lives on a farm and researches how flock behave)
ReplyDeleteWhat are the ideas by the gra/r Baruch?
ReplyDeleteIt is Shklov. Sokolov is a family name given for that place.
ReplyDeleteTHE WORKPLACE
ReplyDeleteThe workplace, even frum workplaces, is not a place for a good Jewish boy. We have to be there, granted; we have to make a living for our families - which is a Mitzvah in itself - but we need to realize the price we pay for those necessities.
There is a story in the mussar seforim, about a man who had a premonition that next year's crops would be poisoned, so that whoever would eat it would become insane. He didn't; know what to do -- if he would eat the crops he'd become insane, but if he does not eat the crops, the whole world will be insane except him, and being the only normal one in an insane world is just as bad as being insane. Warning people about the crops is useless because nobody would believe him anyway. So he went ot the village wise man who told him, "You have to eat the crops. You're right - that being the only normal person in an insane world is as bad as being insane. Plus it will drive you crazy anyway. But here's what you do:
"Tie a string around your finger to remind yourself constantly that you have eaten from the crops and you are insane. Being insane is bad, but in this case you have no choice. However, for the rest of the world, much worse than being insane is the fact that they will think they're normal. Being insane is bad, but being insane thinking you're normal is much worse. So tie a string around your finger which will always remind you that you are insane. You'll be insane, but at least you'll know you're insane. Everyone else will think they're normal, so you'll be much much better off than the rest."
The nimshal is, there's nothing wrong with going to work, and often it may even be a necessity. But to spend the gift of life that Hashem gives us for such a short time in this world selling cars or programming computers or whatever we need to do to make a living, is insane. It may be necessary, but it's still insane. We have so little to live in this world (we should all live to 120 years, but compared to eternity in the afterlife, 120 years is nothing), and its our only chance to collect Torah and Mitzvos --- how crazy is it to busy ourselves with other things??
But we have to? OK, we have to. At the very least, let us realize that we do so out of necessity and that making a living necessitates our leading a life which, when you consider what we're on this world for and the opportunities that exist ONLY while we are here, is insane. Let's at least realize that.
For those who learn all day, they may not need to tie strings around their fingers, but, unfortunately, in the materialistic and confused world that we live in, they need posts such as this one, to constantly remind them that their lives are very, very normal, sane, and healthy.
The hardships of Kolel are nothing compared to the pleasures. Like Rav Aharon ZT'L said - that those who support learning might get Olam Habah like those who learn, but they surely don't get Olam Hazeh like them. Money isn't everything - even in Olam Hazeh.
KOLLEL - A HIGHER LEVEL
ReplyDeleteThat's why all this talk about those able to learn all day being an "exception to the rule" misses the point.
Not everyone will become Moshe Rabbeinu, to be sure, but everyone should try to come as close as they can. And everyone admits that being Moshe Rabbeinu is something to look up to, strive for, and admire. Even if most of us don't ever make it there.
So too even if many people will not learn all day, we all must recognize that it is certainly a higher level, it is a prize and privilege and merit that we should all try to attain, since it provides us with a higher spiritual level, and reaching the highest level possible in this world is our goal.
Today, thank G-d we live in a society where many, many people can learn all day. They recognize, BH, that learning Torah is better for your soul than practicing law. Or accounting. Or writing software. No question about it.
The point is the values, not the behavior. Behavior represents Jews; the values represent Judaism. To say that not everyone will reach the high level of learning all day is acceptable. But to say that isn't a higher level, is changing the Torah's values. Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam. And that includes every second of learning.
TALMUD TORAH KNEGED KULAM
ReplyDeleteGemilas chasadim is great; bikur cholim is great; hachnosas orchim, hachnasas kallah, levayas hameis -- all great.
But Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam.
One word of Torah learning imparts more holiness than an entire lifetime of doing other Mitzvos.
On The Reasons for Leaning Full Time
Talmud Torah K'neged Kulam means always. There is no such thing as a "proper time" for learning, or an "improper time". The Gemora says that only during a time when "it is not day or night" is the time for learning "not proper." It's not a question of right or wrong. The Halachah, as explained by the Ohr Sameach in Hilchos Talmud Torah, is that everyone has to learn an amount according to his level. The more a person understands the value of learning, the more time he must spend on it.
But it's not a question of Halachah, not l'chatchilah not b'dieved. It's simply this: If I showed you a pile of coins and gave you 1 hour to collect as much as you can, you would spend as much time gathering the gold as you could.
Torah is the greatest Mitzvah - one word of Torah, Chazal say, is more holy than an entire lifetime of doing Mitzvos.
And we have one lifetime to gather our gold. Someone who appreciates that doesn't care if he is halachicly obligated of not. Everyone agrees that learning Torah is gold. Even if you are not halachicly obligated to run after it.
WOMEN
ReplyDeleteWomen need Torah, too. Without Torah, you cant get Olam Habah. And so the Gemora asks the question: Nashim b',ai zachyan - How do women merit Olam Habah if they do not learn Torah?
The Gemora answers; Bakroei banaihu l'bei kenishta, ib'asniyei gavraihu bai rabanon - by supporting and helping their husband and children learn.
There is a contradiction between your second and last paragraphs. If women are obligated to learn the sections of Torah that pertain to them, then how can they be "aino metzuveh v'oseh" when they learn?
ReplyDeletePlease translate R' Elchanon's pshat in R' Nehuray's statement, where he says everyone is obligated even according to him to study for parnasah unless they are truly exceptional.
ReplyDeleteHow can one study secular studies when the books and lessons are filled with evolution and apikorsus and ideas that are anti-Torah?
ReplyDeleteIf you don't know math and geometry how can you understand Eiruvin? If you don't understand finance how can you understand Bava Metzia? If you don't understand chemistry and biology how can understand Kashrus? If you don't understand astronomy how can you understand the Jewish calendar?
ReplyDelete1) The goyim view it as wisdom and therefore a Jew who lacks this wisdom is viewed as inferior This principle means that a Jew does not have basic knowledge of science, history or biology is viewed as inferior and surely if he has trouble speaking or reading the lanuage of the land. This is a chilul Hashem.
ReplyDelete1) Do you have a source for this?
2) If and after we establish a proper source, is it one that is relevant for all generations. It was well-known that the Chofetz Chaim did not speak or write the language of the land wherein he resided. Same with many other Halachic greats. Do you think that they were wrong?
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2) Being able to predict events because they are caused by the mechanical and fixed movements of the stars shows that idolatry is wrong.
Is this relevant nowadays where sun and moon worship is practically non-existent in the lands where Jews live?
The idol worship that Jews have unfortunately succumbed to in the past were all imitating the nations that surrounded them. There are many sources for this 1) The Targum always translates idol worship as טָעֲוָת עַמְמַיָּא. If need be, I'll provide more sources.
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[II] Rav Yisroel Belsky told me that his success in dealing with kashrus processes - and his ability to deal with these issues better than other rabbis
With all due respect, I'm completely lost here. You have covered some seemingly major halachic blunders that he was a part of. The underlying reason of why he felt confident doing what he did - despite major rabbinic backlash - was due to the fact that he felt contempt for all other rabbis including Rav Shlomo Zalmen Aurbach, Rav Elyashiv and Rav Wosner. He felt that they just didn't measure up to him. Sorry, an exception to the rule was Rabbi Hershel Schachter. Are there not major problems in some of RB's kashrus rulings?
but that they did not influence his decision.
ReplyDeleteWhich flies in the face of your anecdote from Rabbi Belsky.
MTJ (rav moshe's yeshivah) always had a pretty aggressive, good quality secular studies curriculum.
ReplyDeleteMany of RMF's musmachim had graduate degrees.
Didn't RAKotler's daughter hav. A bachelors degree?
ReplyDeleteThanks for that r elchonon! Didn't know of it. Also never knew or shwab was the one that asked r bb.
ReplyDeleteI heard Rav Feivel Cohen publicly state that if a guy learns Torah at the expense of his wife working in an office - he gets no reward for his Torah learning.The reality of kids being raised by a series of baby sitters is not pleasant - especially when the baby sitters are not Jewish. Is the main contact the father or mother have with their kids picking them up from one baby sitter and taking them to another?
ReplyDeleteThe image of a family devoted to the father's Torah learning - at the expense of all else - fails to take into account the damage that is done when parents aren't available to be parents. The problem of child abuse by siblings in large families where the 9 year old takes care of the 6 year old who takes care to the 2 year old - has been ignored for too long.
Bottom line - there is a serious price being paid for this life style in the psychlogical well bearing of the members of the family.
could you tell me what the Shulchan Aruch says about this?
ReplyDeleteif they didn't have apikorsus you would have no problem of a program of secular studies?
ReplyDeleteplease read Rav Dessler statement that we need to be willing to pay the price of sacrificing 999 out of 1000 students in terms of their psychological well being and religious observance in order to produce 1 gadol. In other words contrary to your glib assertion most people are simply cannon fodder to create an environment where a single individual can grow. Are you willing to sacrifice your children? Rabbi Schwab noted that even that sacrifice doesn't ensure the production of gedolim.
ReplyDeletegood point!
ReplyDeletea few questions:
ReplyDeletea) Has this statement of sacrifice been widely accepted, or was it said as a special measure after the Shoah?
b) Is this cheshbon even allowed halachically? Remember, the extreme anti zionists said it is better to die than to risk a spiritual decline eg in Israel. So how can this programme be justified , ie losing 999 souls - how is it an acceptable price to pay?
c) Are gedolim truly built on the back of those who cannot stand the strictness of Yeshiva life? Many Gedolim actually learned privately, and were not deeply involved in Yeshiva or rabbinic life, eg the Chazon Ish.
the problem is where to draw the line - I think you said that MO/YU have gone too far, with secular culture etc
ReplyDeletewhat is the acceptable halachic view? I don't know if it is still the case, bu once upon a time, Ner Yisroel Yeshiva would send its talmidim to o University studies part time hence it was not YU but Y + U.
Did he note this in writing,verbally or in private conversation with you? I would like to have a source please!
ReplyDeleteSatmar were claiming that knowing secular knowledge somehow "perverted" R' Moshe's application of Halacha. This has nothing to do with a Posek who decides the Halacha given certain facts and then uses science to ascertain those facts.
ReplyDeleteEddie - I hope your ability to see things more clearly, rubs off on me!
ReplyDeletethis has been discussed a number of times - see links below
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/11/rav-dessler-yeshiva-should-deny-self.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2008/10/r-dessler-produce-gedolim-even-if-most.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/05/pandemic-of-low-self-esteem-in-yeshivos.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2010/11/yeshiva-education-causes-low-self.html
your citation is wrong as well as your quotation.
ReplyDeleteThe quote is found in IM EH 2:11 page 322 - not 2:1 he is criticizing Satmar for taking into consideration the view of the Catholic Church that it is prohibitied.
ואני ב"ה שאיני לא מהם ולא מהמונים וכל השקפתי הוא רק מידיעת התורה בלי שום תערובות מידיעות חיצוניות שמשפטיה אמת בין שהוא להחמיר בין שהוא להקל ואין הטעמים מהשקפות ףחיצוניות וסברות בויות מהלב כלום אף אם להחמיר ולדמיון שהוא ליותר טהרה וקדושה ועתה נדבר מעצם ההלכה למאור תוה"'ק
You can make a living without college. As long as you have bread, salt and water, you have a living.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.hebrewbooks.org/52579
ReplyDeleteI think the name is named that way after the place which is Sokolov not Shklov. I think Shklov is a mistake because someone saw it written שקלאוו and mispronounced it. If anyone could tell me for sure I would appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteIt has plenty to do with a posek who decided that Rav Elyashiv, Rav Wosner and Rav Shlomo Zalmen Aurbach are inferior to him and do not have to be reckoned with due to his "superiority" in secular subjects.
ReplyDeletejust that I have noticed that a lot of disasters occurred when I lacked sufficient bitachon -
ReplyDeleteBaruch wrote a Hebrew translation of Euclid under the instruction of the Gra, saying that according to his master, the Gra, by the amount one lacks secular/scientific knowledge, one lacks 7-fold Torah knowledge. In R Norman Lamm's book, Torah uMadda, he brins the various approaches to knowledge of secular studies, citing the Rambam and the Gra. Of course, the YU position is the most open to secular knowledge, and this is under criticism of the mainstream yeshiva world. R' Hutner was trying to establish a Yeshiva College programme together with R Mendelowitz - but ti was opposed by Rav Kotler.
ReplyDeleteEvery posek or Dayan has to make a decision on what is in front of him, and not out of fear of other poskim.
ReplyDeleteThere are cases where Rav Shlomo Zalman is revolutionary, and lenient, and not approved by contemporary Gedolim.
Even the Arukh HaShulchan, which some Gedolim say is more authoratative than the Mishneh Brurah, is lenient on some issues, whilst bringing Kabbalistic practice into psak, unlike strict Litivsh halacha.
R' Baruch translated various secular textbooks of Math, Science etc. into the Hebrew language for studies and got then blessings of the Gra. see:
ReplyDeletehttps://books.google.com/books?id=ge1nTSDW21MC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=R%27+Baruch+of+Shklov&source=bl&ots=f-7qugYand&sig=YQFLQp5hWTgpeZfUEEa9Gc-qN6U&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAsbuc1pXMAhUBeD4KHb3aDeEQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q=R'%20Baruch%20of%20Shklov&f=false
I studied in school for 18 years and apart from a few pages there was no evolution apikorsus and anti torah ideas in any of my text books.
ReplyDelete'Full with' is a complete over exageration.
https://www.google.com/search?q=shklov&oq=shklov&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.8481j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
ReplyDeletehttps://www.google.com/search?q=shklov&oq=shklov&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.8481j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8
Occasionally late for shacharis I agree.
ReplyDeleteBut how do you explain 'kollel guys' that are consistently late for shacharis or mincha or Ma'ariv or seder usually by the same amount of time, whatever time shacharis starts, EVERY SINGLE DAY AND EVERY SINGLE TEFFILA.
Sounds like many baalei batim
ReplyDeleteI'm not even talking about college. R' Elchanon states that studying secular knowledge for the sake of a Parnasa is a Mitzva; how does this jive with the Rema that it is forbidden to learn secular studies as a curriculum? Are you only allowed to study every other day, or is it more likely that the Rema is not referring to studying for the sake of Parnasa at all, which in fact is clear from R' Elchanon's language. So studying a curriculum for the sake of parnasa is not only permitted but a mitzva according to R' Elchanon.
ReplyDeleteRegarding history it is mentioned in Tosafos and other Rishonim in Shabbos 116b but also see the Terumos Hadeshen brought by Rema who permits it.
ReplyDeleteEvery posek or Dayan has to make a decision on what is in front of him, and not out of fear of other poskim.
ReplyDeleteSource, please. A guy cannot just wake up one fine morning and declare himself smarter and wiser than all other poskim and decide to create all sorts of halachos that way. There is a process. Is there a way to say that all of RB's psakim fit into that process?
What Tosafos and other Rishonim and the Terumos Hadeshen are referring to doesn't include something like American history. Certainly not how I'm reading it.
ReplyDeleteThank you for the clarification.
ReplyDeleteInferior to him in ability to pasken correctly given the facts, or in knowledge of those facts? Is it wrong to maintain that I know more about chemical engineering than the Posek HaDor?
ReplyDeleteHow can saying that you need a secular education to learn "politeness respect and tolerance" and "true Torah values be a good point?!?!
ReplyDelete"They cannot be brought to create an issur on what a large segment of klal Yisroel is do" good thing he wasn't around when a lot of klal Yisroel was ovdei avodah zara
Is it wrong to maintain that I know more about chemical engineering than the Posek HaDor?
ReplyDeleteIt is wrong for you decide to pasken against the poskei hador because you decided that the poskei hador do not have the sense to to know when they cannot pasken on a specific item.
----
The famous story of Rav Yochanan and Rish Lakesh is explained in the same way. Rav Yochanan realized that the reason why Rish Lakesh was clinging to his opinion and refusing to listen to the facts was due to the fact that he felt that he had a superior knowledge of that specific case, due to his history in crime. That's why RY responded the way he did......
Why must you have a background in those disciplines before studying the Gemara? Why not dive into them when studying the Gemara? And learn them as much as is relevant to the Gemara, no more and no less.
ReplyDeletesee reason 9 here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=44221&st=&pgnum=4
Your mention of the Chofetz Chaim must be only an add-on to your view that secular studies should be avoided. On its own, why is the CC's conduct more relevant than that of other Gedolim who did differently than him?
Agreed, but it shouldn't be baalei batim or 'kollel guys'. And for 'kollel guys' it's far worse. Baalei Batim have their nisyonos in other things, and sometimes beat the yetzer horo and sometimes don't.
ReplyDelete'Kollel guys' (that expression used by David says it all) do not have workplace nisyonos and all that goes with it. Their only nisoyan is in avodas hashem, middos, punctuality, hasmodo, etc. And too high a percentage do not seem to succeed in perhaps the only nisoyan they have.
Have you ever heard of 'accountant guys', 'lawyer guys' or 'doctor guys'.
ReplyDeleteThe expressions used by David of 'yeshiva guys' and 'kollel guys' really says all that needs to be said about the contemporary attitude to kollel amongst our youth.
What David describes as kollel life is a utopia enjoyed by a very small minority. A significant proportion of 'kollel guys' (perhaps not Israeli) are passing time, funded by wealthy family.
That doesn't make sense.
ReplyDeleteIf something is ossur, how can New York state law allow the issur?
"Nobody disagrees with the fact that it is better to have the mother
ReplyDeletehome to raise the kids full time. But in a situation where you cant have that AND a Kollel father and husband at the same time, which of those two has to fall by the wayside?
The answer is, you take whichever you think is MORE important: a mother always being home or a father who is the biggest talmid chacham he can be.
Someone in Lakewood once expressed to Rav Schenuer Kotler ZT'L about how if he stays in Kollel his children will be deprived of many things they would have otherwise. Rav Schenuer responded that providing them with a father who is a TalmidChacham is more important than any of those things. And he should think hard before depriving them of that."
What you have just stated is completely false. Rav Schneur Zt"l was speaking of giving up gashmius. He would never have sanctioned, for example, having young children being away from their mother for an entire day and being picked up from playgroup by non-Jewish maids so that the father could become a talmid chochom. Nor would he sanction having a mother, who is the greatest influence on her children, work in an office with an improper environment so that her husband can stay in kollel. There are many things that must not be sacrificed so that a father can learn in kollel, and if you think otherwise, your sense of Jewish priorities is completely twisted.
"The workplace, even frum workplaces, is not a place for a good Jewish boy."
ReplyDeleteAnother shtus. I doubt that you have ever been in a workplace.
see reason 9 here:
ReplyDeleteYou're citing a source (reason #9!) from a sefer that has not stood the test of time. It has not been an authoritative or well-accepted sfer among Jews.
Your mention of the Chofetz Chaim must be only an add-on to your view that secular studies should be avoided. On its own, why is the CC's conduct more relevant than that of other Gedolim who did differently than him?
Do you always shoot from the hip first, and then try and draw a marker around your bullet? You misfired.
1) The Chofetz Chaim was clearly accepted as the leading Possek of his time. His halachic works are authoritative. Therefore, his works are quite relevant. Now, during his time-period, which other halachic authorities did feel the need to involve themselves with secular knowledge? German and Anglo Jewish leaders had a very issue to deal with and are not proof. Besides, most authoritative figures in the CC's generation went along with his opinion about secular studies.
Funny story: when my yeshiva reached the mishna in Makos that discusses a grammatical question of "vnashel habarzel", everyone was stymied. Someone who knows Hebrew grammar helpfully typed up a sheet explaining the sugya. I sat with my shoel umaishiv studying that sheet, and I had to explain it to him, as I had learned basic grammatical concepts in middle school but he hadn't. When you don't have a foundation and you encounter a difficult Gemora, the usual instinct is to skim it and keep on going. Otherwise you would have to stop seder for a week to go to a grammar class.
ReplyDeleteKollel guys have tremendous nisyonos: lack of money, lack of sholom bayis because of the lack of money, kids who never see their mother who works full-time. It's no picnic. When a child is sick, the kollel guy stays home with him so that the wife can go to work.
ReplyDeleteThey discuss talking about the wars of various kings. They are not talking about a curriculum rather if it's allowed at all, or whether it is allowed on Shabbos.
ReplyDeleteTheoretically you shouldn't need secular studies to teach these values but practicaly you do.
ReplyDeleteThe politeness of most people these days is inversely proportional to the 'heimshkeit' of their education. Mechanchim often point this out, the kids that have a decent secular education are generally more organised and polite. Yes I know there are exceptions.
For some reason and I don’t profess to know why, torah education is NOT teaching those values these days.
What has avoda zoroh got to do with anything?
When Rav Schneur ran the Kollel in Lakewood, who was supporting the families of the kolleleit, with the father being in Kollel all day?
ReplyDeleteHave you ever worked in a Manhattan firm, as is quite common among New York Jews? In virtually all such firms there is inevitable inappropriateness, whether how the women dress or other issues.
ReplyDeleteThat's complete and utter hogwash.
ReplyDeleteYou said that they can't make an issur of something that a lot of klal Yisroel is doing. My response to that was,would you say the same if most of klal Yisroel are ovdei avoda zora (which has happened). If it's assur then end of story.
ReplyDeleteThe issur of AZ is mefurash in the torah.
ReplyDeleteThe 'issue' of secular studies is a massive machlokas, practically no Rishonim even mention it. On the contrary by far most Rishonim were well versed in secular studies.
The 'issur' of secular studies is a very modern one and was not accepted by all of klal yisroel.
Depends on the kollel.
ReplyDeleteLike universities, there is a ranking order. Once you are out of the top twenty or so, it's regular breaks for shmoozing, coffee and a smoke.....
Lack of money, that mainly applies to Israeli 'kollel guys'.
ReplyDeleteOn the whole the 'western' 'kollel guys' seem to be quite ok. Rent in Har Nof is not cheap. Yes, there are exceptions, I know.
Not to the degree that I spoke of, which is very commonly the case today. Women in improper office environments were very uncommon in those days. And there were no more than a few hundred yungerleit in Rav Schneur's days anyways, so there were definitely not many of these cases, if at all.
ReplyDeleteAnd there was no way that Rav Schneur would have sanctioned a woman going to college and getting a degree so her husband could "bleib by learning," as is commonly accepted today.
ReplyDeleteThen these are not frum workplaces. I know a bunch of actual frum workplaces which are wonderful environments.
ReplyDeleteFrom all the comments by 'David', it is clear that he is a follower of a cult with only a superficial resemblance to traditional Judaism, and whose main tenet is that there exists a lifestyle without significant spiritual challenges ('nisyonos'). Of course, the Mesilas Yesharim and all other classic Jewish sources tell us that the essence of life in this world is nisyonos, and that while we have to choose the least problematic ones, there is no escape from the existence of temptations and risks.
ReplyDeleteI am sure that the founders of today's yeshiva society did not fall into this trap, but today we find so many simplistic thinkers who take some aspects of the "Torah life" and make them into a kind of mindless and really dangerous path in life, expecting no difficulties and not being prepared for the ones which inevitably arrive. "Shomer p'sa'im Hashem", but we should do our best not to be "psa'im".
Just walking through Manhattan or travelling on the subway subjects a Yid to a bad environment full of pritzus and nivel peh and other maladies. Inside most offices in the city is little better. A Yid working in JP Morgan Chase will be subjected to daily constant pritzus in the office.
ReplyDeleteWho supported the families of Rav Schneur's talmidim in Kollel? Many of Rav Schneur's Kollel yungerleit were in long-term Kollel. (Personally, I agree that women shouldn't be getting degrees and going into the secular world to work.)
ReplyDeleteSo your issue is women working in an inappropriate, i.e. secular, work environment. But Rav Schneur's talmidim's wives, whose husbands were in full-time Kollel, must've been producing an income to support the mishpacha.
ReplyDeleteYour description of too much coffee and shmoozing only applies to the bottom twenty or so. Most in Kollel, by far, are there appropriately and correctly learning Torah as they are expected and should.
ReplyDeleteYou have no idea what you are talking about. Why don't you take your head out of your rear end and spend a day in any one of the botei medrash of of BMG in Lakewood or the Mir in Israel. You will retract your statement pretty quickly.
ReplyDeleteK'neged Kulam does not mean above, otherwise Ezer K'Negdo would mean above him. K'Neged means if I do a Mitzva learning how to do that Mitzva is as good as doing it.
ReplyDeleteWith regards to the gold coins, you can be in a situation where you can save somebody's life or learn Torah. What then?
Yes. I am not against women working, because most women who are non-kollel wives also must work to support their families. What I am against is the philosophy that it is acceptable for a woman to work or earn a degree in an inappropriate environment or to work extra-long hours, at the expense of hers and her family's spiritual well-being, with the justification that she is doing this so that her husband can become the "biggest talmid chochom that he can become, " as is a common practice in our society. There are certain things that override a husband remaining in learning, and all gedolim agreed and agree to this, including R' Schneur.
ReplyDeleteI am not arguing with you about this. I am arguing with the following quote:
ReplyDelete"The workplace, even frum workplaces, is not a place for a good Jewish boy."
There are many workplaces that are acceptable. And what is the alternative? Sending your wife to work in such an environment??? That is okay???
Such a spirited response! It seems that what I was trying to say isn’t what was heard. Does your negation of secular studies mean that we should hope to get secular studies closed in American yeshiva high schools? If so, knowing the conduct of those who “presided” over the creation of American yeshiva high schools, such as R Aharon and R Moshe, is more relevant than the CC’s refusal to learn the local language.
ReplyDeleteSome issues are so clearly wrong, that if gedolim weren’t mocheh their silence had to have been due to special circumstances from which we shouldn’t generalize. Then we should derive instruction from what the CC did a century ago in a “different world. IMHO this would resolve my difficulties with your comment. I offered the resolution before my difficulty.
Two well-known European-born American gedolim famous for their emphasis on honesty and their constant reference to and emulation of the CC, put much effort into mastering the English language. Certainly they believed that the CC would bless them for doing so even though that wasn’t what he himself did.
I assume you have no problem in the first place that the blog quotes RNK’s “heretical” book. (The blog received some guidance from RMS who is supportive of the book. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Making_of_a_Godol) Somewhere in the book RYK tells R Schustal that the world is bigger than it might seem. צמח דוד is “a sefer that has not stood the test of time. It has not been an authoritative or well-accepted sfer among Jews”? Maybe in your circles that is true, but the world is bigger than it seems. In certain ehrlicheh circles they would laugh at such a claim.
There are two parts to what I cite from צ"ד.
1 the essential idea not to be considered fools by the goyim.
2 we should be knowledgeable about yedder schvartz vulf who lived in ancient Rome in order not to be considered fools by the goyim.
#2 isn’t true nowadays, so reading today the chelek of צ"ד dealing with gentile history is basically one big waste of time. –But that doesn’t take away from #1.
--
Not very consequential but, WADR, the CC wasn’t the accepted Posek during his lifetime. That happened later. More important: in educational issues the CC is the Posek today? The דרך הלימוד in yeshivas today, for example, is in direct opposition to the CC’s דרך הלימוד. The CC spoke against the דרך הלימוד in yeshivas. The young RMB Weissmandel travelled to the CC and asked him if there was a yeshiva where he could learn the CC’s דרך. (RMB was blown away by the MB.) The CC told him that there isn’t *any*, you might as well go back to your yeshiva in Slovakia. And this hasn’t changed in all the years since.
--
In conclusion I can’t accept that you are SIMPLY right. But I don’t say that you are SIMPLY wrong. There are many variables involved. Kt.
So thanks to you, by now he understands the Gemara. :)
ReplyDeleteI wish the only two kollelim were BMG and Mir (incidentally, I learnt in the Mir for many years).
ReplyDeleterubbish
ReplyDeleteRav shneur's sister went to college, got a bachelors. Per her father's instructions.
ReplyDelete(Whether or not she supported her husband is irrelevant, per later history.)
So you learned in the Mir yourself, and agree that the Mir and BMG, the two largest kollelim in the world, do not fit your description of "kollel guys." I assume that you would include a few other large institutions in this group. I give you that there are a few that fit your description. But for some reason you chose to go the other way and denigrate an entire group of many thousands of serious kollel men. Why?
ReplyDeleteValid and reasonable points you make. The Chofetz Chaim's wife ran the business so he could learn uninterrupted. In a letter from his son he tells of how his mother was uneducated and illiterate so every night she'd review & retell the Chesbon of the day's transactions by heart and the Chofetz Chaim would record them. As a side note, in today's society - one doesn't need a college degree to obtain a formidable Parnassa.
ReplyDeleteA well respected Mechaneches with over 45 years experience once told me that a former student of hers approached her and berated the fact that she has to work so hard to support the family on top of her jobs as being a competent wife & mother while her husband spends his days toiling in Torah. She didn't feel it was "fair". The Machaneches replied that she's right. By letter of the Kesubah it's her husband's obligation to provide financial support and sustenance. However, if she wants a husband who's Atzmiyus is Torah as head of household, and to receive S'Char on behalf of his Hasmada & Amaylus B'Torah then she must sacrifice for it. Everything has its price and expenses. In accordance with one's degree of values and levels of determination to achieving them - is precisely the direction they'll choose and apply themselves.
I made it quite clear that I was not referring to all kollelim or all 'Kollel Guys'.
ReplyDeleteIt's the 'kollel guys' you don't see that are the problem. Those that regularly turn up late to seder. Those that loiter around smoking. Those that start bein hazmanim rosh chosesh adar and are back in their hometowns or those of their wives at every opportunity etc etc. All for good reasons every time of course.
And not to mention the large Israeli element that are simply there to avoid the army.
Very not clear from what you said, or to be more truthful, not what you said at all. A minority of people not behaving the way they should does not constitute a reason to denigrate the system.
ReplyDeleteThat being said, I do agree that some initiative needs to be taken in the direction of directing these people out of kollel, which has not taken place as of yet.
It seems that what I was trying to say isn’t what was heard.
ReplyDeleteI agree. I think both of us have spoken past each other.
Does your negation of secular studies mean that we should hope to get secular studies closed in American yeshiva high schools?
I was not making such a suggestion. I was questioning both reasons given in the blog post.
I agree that the Chofetz Chaim's reasoning (whatever it was) is not necessarily applicable to all generations and situations. Equally important is, that the reasoning and practices of different Torah greats are also not necessarily applicable to all generations and situations. Blanket requirements/necessities that are not a halacha pesukah are usually wrong, in some way (while possibly being right in other ways....).
----
I assume you have no problem in the first place that the blog quotes RNK’s “heretical” book.
Are you referring to a specific quote or passage?
1) The blog owner has full right to do as he wishes on his blog.
2) There are historical fallacies in the book. He is intellectually dishonest. He has a larger than life view of his father.
Nat, you are aware a minority is up to 49%.
ReplyDelete"A minority of people not behaving the way they should does not constitute a reason to denigrate the system."
Degenerate is too strong a word. But, whatever word you wish to use, a system where say 30% of sample spaces, is indeed 'faulty' (or whatever word you wish to use).
A manufacturing process that produces 30% faulty goods is not acceptable. Sorry.
But sometimes common knowledge of the Metzius is wrong, and the Posek - through no fault of his own - is relying on that fallacious understanding to render his Psak. Only somebody with special knowledge in that field can recognise the mistake. (e.g. the Rashash in Perek Lo Yachpor, followed by Badei HaShulchan Y.D. Siman 110, based on a common - and very understandable - lack of knowledge of the laws of probability.)
ReplyDelete"Culture" being the operative word.
ReplyDeleteI wrote a response to this, but I don't think it got through. I'll wait a bit to find out...
ReplyDeleteINDIRECTLY, K'neged Kulam DOES mean above.
ReplyDeleteLITERALLY it means that Talmud Torah is *equivalent* to the other mitzvos *combined*. Hence it is above each individual mitzvah
You've written a long comment, but this point needs to be made:
ReplyDeleteIt is one thing living off of pure tzedakah, quite another living off of government handouts.
In today's world, at least in the United States, the vast majority of Kollel leit are on the government dole. The main problem with that is that your brother who is out working until an hour and a half before Shabbos and on Erev Pesach and Aseres Yemei Teshuva is subsidizing the Kollel man's grand welcoming of the Shabbos Queen.
When you look at it that way, that very, very different life is being built on someone's back, and that someone happens to include אחיך העברי. And that brother wasn't given a choice whether he'd like to work so hard so someone else's family can achieve maximum spirituality on Erev Shabbos, while he nods off at the Shabbos table because of his fatigue from the week just ended.
It is a very, very different way of looking at this topic.
To be brief, I contend that it is important, perhaps obligatory, to avoid the goyim thinking that we are fools, but it is only one out of many considerations. At certain points in Jewish history, those who studied secular subjects tended to become frai. Of course secular studies have to be avoided in those circumstances. When we find a Psak forbidding secular studies, it doesn't prove that fools-in-the-eyes-of-the-goyim is no consideration. It might be that other considerations take precedence.
ReplyDeleteAbout the RNK book, I was only referring to the idea of the world being bigger than it appears. (Now I found where my quote was - page 172.) צמח דוד remains a primary source for ehrlicheh yidden in the big world who want to delve into history. I didn't want to get distracted by your possible objection of me citing RNK's "heretical" book.
ומוכרח אני לקצר ולסיים אפילו אם תמשיך ועם כבודו הסליחה
Mr Honesty - are you attacking Rav Moshe or Rav Belsky?
ReplyDeleteEven within the realm of Gedolim of the previous generation, Lubavitch often bring a case where the Rebbe disagreed on a ruling of Rav Moshe, regarding a heter to travel on a ship during shabbat. The Rebbe, who had studied engineering, understood the engine in the ship and ruled against Rav Moshe's heter. So there are always technical bits of information that guide the posek, and it is not purely about how great the posek is.
The government isn't going to lower any brothers taxes if some kollel guys don't apply for government benefits.
ReplyDeletehow do you know it was superior information and not a disagreement how to understand the information?
ReplyDeleteAnd who said that the Lubavitch Rebbe was right and Rav Moshe wrong? Perhaps Rav Moshe was right.
ReplyDeleteThe paragraph says "Elu dvarim s'adam etc. and enumerates a number of mitzvot, the plain meaning is that for these mitzvot, Talmud Torah is k'Neged Kulam (kulam, only these mitzvot)
ReplyDeleteand the meaning is that for these mitzvot you get a reward in this and the next world. Also if you study how to do these mitzvot (Torah) you get the same reward.
Moe, aren't you missing the point? You're still calling it tzedakah, apparently, and it's not. And if you aren't calling it tzedakah, then David's discussion of the Shach becomes irrelevant. Likewise, his discussion of trade-offs takes on an entirely different dimension.
ReplyDeleteדרך אגב, you seem to look at way too many life struggles one dimensionally, recent comment included.
Daas Torah - are you deliberately deleting all my comments?
ReplyDeletehaven't deleted any
ReplyDeleteThat is definitely not the simple pshat. What is your source for this pshat?
ReplyDeleteCheck here. It seems your comments posted:
ReplyDeletehttps://disqus.com/by/daviddombrowski/
It seems his comments are advising how to best avoid whatever unnecessary nisyonos one might encounter that could negatively affect one's Torah life, as well as steps to positively take that can positively improve one's Torah life.
ReplyDeleteJust read the Mishna (paragraph). It is the plain meaning in Hebrew.
ReplyDeleteIt might be that other considerations take urgent precedence.
ReplyDeleteI understand your point.
I do think that the 52% rate is very relevant.
ומוכרח אני לקצר ולסיים אפילו אם תמשיך ועם כבודו הסליחה
Huh?
Good luck, buddy.
Sorry, but that is not the plain meaning of the Hebrew. It is actually very convoluted.
ReplyDeleteHe's not giving any 'advice'; all he's doing is asserting the existence of some fantasy world where anyone who wants can sit and learn his whole life (without even any concrete goals) without any obligation to support himself and his family. He then condemns anyone who doesn't choose this dreamworld as inferior and maybe even disloyal to the Torah.
ReplyDeleteI have the feeling that he is probably a bachur or a very young kollel man with little to no life experience.
Please correct me if I am wrong - but it is getting to a point where everything is both assur and mutar or even a mitzvah.
ReplyDeleteSecular studies are important - except when YU do it, or the Israeli government wants to impose basic curriculum on everyone.
Loshin hara is terrible, and asur, except where it is necessary , has a benefit, or alternatively is forbidden if it has a benefit, and permitted when there is no benefit. The CC was the preeminent Gadol hador, and daas torah, except when he was wrong and basically made up his laws on L'H and brought what was mussar into the realm of halacha.
Gedolim have authority, and we must listen to them, even if we do not understand what they say - except we are not allowed to accept what they say if we do not agree or understand.
I am stylising these dialectics,, and I do know there are some fine distinctions, but these exceptions to the rule weaken the assumptiosn of Daas haTorah of the gedolim.
Oh yes, it is permitted to speak against a molestor or sex abuser, unless he is in the "in group" and protected by the Gedolim who we follow, in which case it is assur to say anything about them.
For a community that derides the importance of secular studies, they sure spend enough time sending shnorrers around to collect money from rich donors who got rich because of their success with - wait for it - secular studies.
ReplyDeleteOne critique that Rav belsky made of the Lubavitcher rebbe, or better _ his followers. Was that he was proclaimed for his military knowledge, and understood the battlefield better than generals. The point being that his praise should be about his knowledge and understanding of Torah.
ReplyDeleteIt's ironic that rav belsky's followers praise him for his knowledge of science, of Einstein's relativity etc...