Relevant to our discussion of the relevancy of secular studies are two stories about Rav Shach - who was not shy about expressing his strong views on a wide variety of issues.
The first story I heard from Rabbi Gershenfeld - Rosh Yeshiva of Machon Shlomo in Har Nof. Rav Leff - the Rav of Mattisyahu is also the head of the high scholl Maarava - which provides high level of secular studies to its elite student body. Rav Leff took the job at the insistence of Rav Shach. One day Rav Leff heard that Rav Shach had made a strong attack on Maarva and secular study. He hurried to Bnei Brak to offer his resignation to Rav Shach. He told him he did not want to be part of an institution that Rav Shach opposed. Rav Shach responded. "You are to remain as the principal of Maarava and I will continue attacking it."
I was told that originally Maarava was created for students who didn't really fit in yeshiva and thus were going off the derech because they had no place. With the development of the school these misfits were able to be saved. However with time, people who were not misfits were attracted to the school. Students who would have been very successful in a Torah only environment - wanted to have careers and become professionals. This necessitated Rav Shach's attack which was to make clear that Maarva was only for those people who would have been lost otherwise. It was not an option for a successful student.
The second is mentioned in the autobiography of Prof Aharon Kirschenbaum. The biography itself can be downloaded here.teaching Jewish law
Rav Chaim Segal ZT'L, the Menahel of the High School at Yeshiva Chaim Berlin was once told by Rav Shach ZT'L that if possible, he should not be teaching English studies. In Eretz Yisroel, almost all Chareidi Yeshivos do not have English at that age. Rav Aharon Kotler ZT'L made some kind of commitment not to allow English studies on the HS level in Lakewood. The exact details, and if this was actually a Takanah or merely a preference, is not clear and depends who you ask. In any case, Rabbi Elya Svei, Rosh Yeshiva of Philadelphia and a student of Rav Aharon's, was asked why he allows English in Philly if Rav Aharon was against it. What difference can there be between the town of Lakewood NJ and Philadelphia PA? Reb Elya answered that he has no choice, and that currently, the Baalei Batim would not send their kids to the Yeshiva except under these circumstances.
ReplyDeleteIs any of this the ideal? No. It is not. Is it justified? The schools say it is, as they have no choice. But the point is not what the Jews do, its what Judaism wants. Everyone agrees that it would be a higher level, a preferable situation if we would indeed not learn English even at the HS level, at least not beyond what is necessary to survive. Nobody claims it is an ideal.
Regarding High School, the only reasons it is allowed is either because education is mandated by State Law (in New York it is until age 17), or simply because if they did not have High School education in the Yeshivas, parents would simply send their kids to worse places to get it.
But it is definitely looked upon not as a l'chatchilah, but rather as something that is annoyingly necessary in the current environment.
Today, there are a small number of High Schools in America - particularly in Lakewood - that do not teach English. Also, many Yeshivos do try to reduce the amount of secular studies as much as possible, through knocking out the last semester of English, and a number of kids are leaving HS early to enter Bais Medrash.
But this is only showing that Rav Shach barely tolerated secular studies for those not great enough in Torah. It should be noted that Rav Shach's rebbertzen was a trained doctor, and his son Ephraim became a fighter in Haganah and later a Dati Leumi professor. Of course, his Father had other plans for him.
ReplyDeleteProf Ahron Kirshenbaum passed away a couple of months ago.
ReplyDeleteHis son Efraim is today a big Rov and Poseik in Ramat beit shemesh.
I heard from Harav Chaim Segal ז"ל (the menahel of Mesivta Chaim Berlin) that Harav Schach ז"ל advised him not to allow students to skip לימודי חול. His reasoning was that in later years the parents will come back with טענות that the yeshiva should not have allowed such a thing.
ReplyDeletenot such a secret: before coming to ponovez, rav shach was principal at a DL school, and his family was likewise mizrachi (the term used at the time.) He lat
ReplyDeleteRav Shach's parents or family were never Mizrachi or DL or MO or its equivalents from that time. Rav Shach was born in rural Lithuania. His father was a Rov. And his mother came from a family of rabbonim who served throughout Lithuania. Rav Shach himself started at Ponevezh when he was 11 years old.
ReplyDeleteI think in those days there was less of a rift between Litvish and Mizrachi, a lot of Gedolim were admirers of Rav Kook, including RSZA ztl and Rav Elyashiv ztl.
ReplyDeleteSeems like a shift is in the air in America where parents are looking & demanding better secular studies programs with a few Ueshiva High Schools in Lakewood now providing.
ReplyDeleteWe can use the Telshe (of Europe model), Ner Yisroel, Chofetz Chsim branches, Shar Hatorah branches, Philly, Long Beach, & other Yeshiva that still combine kodesh & chol.
Rav kook was mesader kiddushin for rav elyashiv.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, the rift in those times was bad, but everyone realized torah was torah. Today, you wouldn't dare quote torah from an 'innapropriate source.
Rav shach was never the authority in CB. Rav hutner was, and would never have allowed another posek in the yeshivah. (Of course, with rav hutner's background, rav shach would have wanted to lessen his influence, at least in this reald.)
ReplyDeleteR Efraim eventually switched to Ponovezh after finishing Hayishuv.
ReplyDeleteAre you from the Landesman who are descendants of R Avraham Pollack of McKeesport?
ReplyDeleteIf yes that makes you cousins with the Kirschenbaums right?
"I was told that originally Maarava was created for students who didn't really fit in yeshiva and thus were going off the derech because they had no place." While the first part of what you were told might be true, depending on how you define "fit in", the second half is definitely not true. The students are, and always have been top caliber -- certainly not "misfits" by any definition of the word -- and a number of Roshei Yeshivos consider the Ma'arava graduates among their top talmidim. There ARE Yeshivas that don't accept Ma'arava graduates on principal. I am speaking from experience that spans a couple of decades -- two of my sons went to Ma'arva, and two to "standard" Israeli Yeshiva Ketana. And while David Kerzner is certainly entitled to quote the opinion of those who think that "it would be a higher level, a preferable situation if we would indeed not learn English even at the HS level" to write that "Nobody claims it is an ideal" is to consider those who disagree with this position - and there are great people who disagree - as "nobodies". We really should acknowledge the legitimacy of differing opinions, as well as ensure we are factually accurate.
ReplyDeleteThe name Yair is no indication of anything. cf Chavos Yair
ReplyDeleteThat is total nonsense. He was never the "principal at a DL school." He gave a shiur in Yeshivat HaDarom in Rechovot, which was run by a son-in-law of R' Isser Zalman Meltzer. Rav Schach was as chareidi then as he later was; that is where he found someone to hire him to teach Torah.
ReplyDeleteBut it is a popular Tzioni name, one of the Stern Gang fighters was called Yair.
ReplyDeleteAlso, a lot of Tzioni people, even frum ones, name their sons Binyomin Zeev, after Herzl. Of course the name is perfectly kosher. But I doubt if man hareidi minded people would knowingly use this combination.
He was not the authority - that's true. However, Rav Segal did have a certain authority to act on his own volition. This was obviously not something openly discussed, but when push came to shove he knew how to get what he needed even if Rav Hutner was not 100% comfortable. Of course this was done in a "ba'kavodike" manner.
ReplyDeleteRav Segal understood extremely well the concept of "תשועה ברוב יועץ" and was overall a very well rounded man.
Why is naming someone Yair particularly notable?
ReplyDeleteThat isn't an accurate comment. Rav Hutner very much looked at the positions of various other Gedolim.
ReplyDeleteReb Yaakov paskened it was assur to pay the hijackers to release Rav Hutner. I am curious to know how Rav Hutner/CB reacted to this?
ReplyDeleteYair was the name of the father of Mordechai in the megillah.
ReplyDelete"Mordechai ben Yair ben Shimi ben Kish Ish Yemini"
Rav Kook was also mesader kiddushin for RSZA ztl
ReplyDeleteYes I am a great grandson of Rav Avraham Pollack of McKeesport.
ReplyDeleteProf Kirshenbaum z"l was my great uncle.
Rav Shach's public pronouncements were very different from his private conversations. Three of my friends in Ner Israel (Baltimore) in the mid 1980's got permission from Rav Shach to learn in Ner Israel and attend college classes at night.
ReplyDeleteRav Schach's conversation with Rav Segal, mentioned below by several people, was a private conversation as well advising him to avoid having an English department in the Yeshiva.
ReplyDeleteHow sure are you of the accuracy of the psak you just attributed to Rav Yaakov? In any event, they didn't ask the shaila to Rav Yaakov, so they followed the psak of whichever Godol they did ask the shaila to.
ReplyDeleteRav Becher, when he was at Ohr Sameach, got permission from Rav Shach to serve in the Army.
ReplyDeleteThe Gadol HaDor, or any Rav in an important position, has to take a stricter stance in public statements. It matters not which group he belongs to. Rav Elyashiv, when he was chosen by Rav Herzog in the Rabbanut, was mattiring agunot and finding loopholes, but as he became a major force in the Hareidi world, he took a much stricter line.
The Rav of Ramat Gan, Rav Ariel, who is well respected in the DL world, has written certain leniencies, eg 20-30years ago, but now is one of the most machmir in the Tzioni world, and forbids many practices that are common in the MO world.
I read it cited in an article many years ago - but I do not have the reference at hand - it is open to refutation.
ReplyDeletean etzelnik naming his son "yair" is significant.
ReplyDeletedont forget, many of these people came to israel without parents, and avraham stern (code name yair) was like a father figure to them.
of course, many believed in the cause.
2. a friend of mine is named tzvi shmuel. I told him he was named after herbert samuel, the first jewish "governor" of israel since gedaliah ben achikam. he didn't know it; he was named after his uncle (who was named after him. the uncle was born approx. that time period.) a very proper yekke family (with relations to RSRH)
Rav Shach was very strict, but his model has not been so successful, and there are now many Hareidi colleges where frum people are learning skills, eg technology. These colleges were backed by Rav Shteinman for a while.
ReplyDeleteThere are limits to how frum people can be, and each generation has to look at the challenges of their time.
it wasn't a question of money. so irrelevant.
ReplyDelete2. while on the subject, what happened on "the plane" is a topic never discussed among jewish (certainly heimishe) circles.
as is what happened on "the train", never discussed.
someone should publish an unbiased study. of course, with the polarization of jewish politics today, don't expect it to be anything serious.
many of the people on both later became leaders of the jewish community. (?perhaps from the pan am settlement.?)
("heimishe" was a poor term. there were sfardim, litvish, and MO on the plane.)
Here is a reference to it -
ReplyDeletehttp://hirhurim.blogspot.co.uk/2008/07/prisoner-transfers-in-jewish-law.html
The psak of Reb Yaakov is cited by none other than our friend, HaGaon Rav Hershel Shachter. That alone, I am sure, will raise doubts in the minds of some.
rav hunter opposed "land for peace", in contradistinction from rav shach:
ReplyDeletefrom Wikipedia:
"Position on territorial compromise[edit]
"Shach's often said that for true peace it was "permitted and necessary to compromise on even half of the Land of Israel". When Rabbi Yitzchak Hutner was asked to support this position, he refused and stated that "agreement to other-than-biblical borders was tantamount to denial of the Torah".[33] Shach's position was also questioned by Rabbi Shmuel Tuvia Stern who wondered why Shach hadn't provided halachic references supporting his opinion.[27]"
Rav Hutner was strongly and outspokenly anti-Zionist.
ReplyDeleteEver heard of the שאלות ותשובות בנימין זאב? That name combo is used in chareidi circles.
ReplyDeleteHe became this way later in life - earlier on, he was a follower of Rav Kook, and studied at Hebrew University.
ReplyDeleteIn fact, after that terrible experience being hijacked by terrorists, he may have become more anti-zionist.
I haven't actually - but good to know!
ReplyDeleteHe did not study at Hebrew University. I really wonder where some people here get their "facts" from. Your association of his "shift" with being hijacked is also total nonsense. He stopped putting R' Kook's picture up in his sukka 10 years before that.
ReplyDeleteHe did not study at Hebrew University.
ReplyDeleteAre you certain? I definitely have read it elsewhere, in a book that has not been challenged on this one.
kochav yair near tulkarm was named after avraham stern. it is basically an upscale community of high level tzahal officers, and retired tzahal.
ReplyDeletehe studied (supposedly got a doctorate there) at kaiser Wilhelm university (today called university of berlin), together with RYBS (and the lubavitcher rebbe z"l, but that is a more nuanced study.) but they did (somewhat) "attend" shiurim at the hildesheimer seminary under RYYW, the sridei aish.
ReplyDelete1: What book? I have not read that about him anywhere. Some university courses in Berlin, perhaps, but not Hebrew U.
ReplyDelete2: That may very well be the explanation, but in any event has nothing to do with his being hijacked 10 years later.
What book?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.artscroll.com/Books/9780899064581.html
reminds me of a story about Chico Marx, one of the Marx brothers. In real life he was a heavy gambler. People he knew did not wish to play cards with him, so he had to pay his friends money to play with him.
ReplyDeleteAll of this is a long-winded attempt to hide behind the proverbial curtain. In Europe, which is the supposed society that the Chareidim are trying to imitate, most people didn't learn past cheder. They went and worked while the most intelligent, with the voluntary support of the community, learned full time to become the next generation of religious guides and leaders.
ReplyDeleteWhat is going on today is an innovation and since innovation is forbidden, we get long speeches and essays on how important learn-don't-earn for everybody is so that we don't get a word in edgewise to say "Hey, you made this all up"
thanks!
ReplyDeletemade correction
The problem is the connection of the leadership to the people. Shlomo HaMelech and Rechavam HaMelech lived in lovely bubbles where all their needs were attended to while the people struggled with the work burdens and taxes imposed on them until finally, a clueless Rechavam wound up causing the kingdom to be divided.
ReplyDeleteThe Rebbe/Godol who sits and learns all day and never has to worry about where his next meal is coming from or who pays his bills has no clue what it's like for the masses and thinks "Just as I can sit and learn Torah and do nothing else and it all works out, so it is for the community!"
And they can write seforim on bitachon, based on their privileged position, ie not worrying about parnassa, because the community throws money at them. Then they also claim to be not bribed.
ReplyDeleteAlthough one could argue that rechavam didn't listen to the zekeinim, but listened to the young graduate hotshots, and followed a disastrous course. On the other hand, rambam says that too old sages are too strict, and cannot head the Sanhedrin. Something that goes against the concept of moetzes gedolei hatorah. How can a gadol be too strict? There's no limit, especially when the MO are being lenient!
ReplyDeleteIn fact, one of the fallacies of anti derech eretz people is that they make the Torah a spade to dig with _ whether it's regular salaries, collections, government stipends etc.
ReplyDeleteBy trying to be extra frum, it turns out violating halacha.