page 678 in Making of a Godol
It is definite that the Chafetz-Chaim's family made short shrift of the entire dibbuq story. This author has spoken to present-day ancestors who question its veracity. R' Shlomo Fisher reported that his mekhuton, the late R' Hirsh Zaks, grandson of the Chafetz-Chaim, quashed the story. R' David Mostofsky divulged - that R' Mendel Zaks, the examiner at his alma mater, Rabbi Isaac Elchanan Theological Seminary (RIETS), scoffed at it. R' Benzion Sobel disclosed , that R' Rephael Wallerstein, "someone very close to R' Mendel Zaks", had informed him that R' Mendel denied the entire story. When R' Benzion asked R' Mendel directly if the story was factual, he retorted, "Who is the one who supposedly told the story?" And when R' Benzion replied, "R' Elchonon," R' Zaks was simply silent - which implies that, while denying the story, R' Mendel did not want to clash head-on with R' Elchonon. The Chafetz-Chaim's oldest son, R' Aryeh-Laib Poupko, reprinted in his ככח"ח an article written a month after his father's passing in the newspaper הדרך under the pseudonym מחר הלוי by someone claiming to have been "close to the Chafetz- Chaim's house". R' Poupko introduces the piece positively with the words, "[The article's] words and descriptions are without exaggeration. They are exalted and sublime and are true." Inter alia, the article tells the following: "The Chafetz-Chaim's outlook was clearly rational without mystical fogginess and 'climbing on ladders, without delusions, without superstitions. They tell how aggrieved and broken Jews once brought him some young girl who crowed like a cock and uttered odd sounds. 'Our holy teacher,' the Jews cried bitterly and supplicated him, 'save us! A dibbuq has entered the girl - may the Merciful One spare us - and you, our master, must expel it from within her.' The Chafetz-Chaim commiserated with them, comforted them, spoke kindly to their heart: 'It is not a dibbuq,' he said. 'It is a kind of sickness. Go to the doctor - he will be the Holy One's messenger and heal her...'" It is clear from the context, that מחר הלוי discounted all stories of the occult pertaining to the Chafetz- Chaim, and from R' Poupko's approbation it is clear that he agreed with 'מחר הלוי R' Shlomo Wolbe reported that R' Yeruham Levovitz, the Mashgiah of Mir, who played a part in the dibbuq story, held that it was no dibbuq that entered the young girl in question; rather, she was suffering from mental illness. R' Yoseph-Shlomo Kahanneman, the Ponivezher Rav, who was another of the participants in the dialogue with the girl ", told his protoge in London, R' Yaakov Levison, that the fact that she - "a daughter of R' Nahum Strelcer from the small, Polish hamlet of Fascoli" - was using foul language while in her state of seizure in- dicated that she was not "possessed" by a spiritual creature. (The Ponivezher Rav added that it seems possible for a spirit to speak words of heresy and blasphemy, matters of a philosophical nature, but not [obscenities].) R' Yoseph-Shlomo maintained that the Chafetz-Chaim had smiled approvingly when this opinion was expressed, leaving the impression that the master, too, did not believe a dibbuq had overtaken the young woman. R' Kahanneman believed that the reason the Chafetz-Chaim did not declare openly that the young woman had no dibbuq but a mental condition was so that the stigma of insanity not mar the good reputation of the young lady and of the entire Strelcer family -,. My son R' Yoseph related that, according to R' Noson Shulman, R' Naphtali Trop had denied the dibbuq story - though his name had been linked to the tale. (When R' Noson's uncle R' Binyamin Shulman, a Radin talmid of the middle 5680's [1920's] who was present when his nephew made the statement, objected that the dibbuq story was common knowledge in the Yeshiva of Radin in his day, R' Noson rejoined facetiously that this was not the first case of his uncle disagreeing with what R' Naphtali said.) Also cf. מאיר עיני ישראל where another Radin talmid, R' Kalman Farber, who came to the yeshiva somewhat later than R' Shulman, reports, "The [yeshiva people] declined to talk about the [dibbuq] tale and tried not to publicize it because they were concerned that people would not believe it and laugh at it." Also cf. ibid. where another Radin talmid who arrived there later yet, R' Shlomo Epstein - he joined the yeshiva in 5690 (1930) - goes further in his account, to wit, "The Chafetz-Chaim did not permit (emphasis added) talking about the story of the dibbuq - in fact, I cannot recall that it was spoken about during all the time I spent at the yeshiva, and except for R' Elchonon Wasserman, not one of us knew its full details. The Chafetz-Chaim knew the true story, but he did not allow it to be spoken about." It seems that as time went on, the story of the dibbuq was being progressively suppressed in Radin.
Thank G-d that there are many who deny it. I was afraid to say so outright, as didn't want a ton of hate mail. The Brazilian dybbuk, where they tried to "exorcise" it via Skype, and was publicized in all the yeshivishe news sites has got to rank with the all-time worst episodes of chilul hashem. Literally made a laughingstock out of huge numbers of people.
ReplyDeleteLeave the exorcisms to members of other religions, where they are considering doing a mass operation in Mexico, Let us focus on making the world a better place.
I have a better one: let's leave everything to proof. ...and not to our foregone conclusion. .....
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/02/rabbi-daniel-travis-regarding-mishlei.html#disqus_thread
ReplyDeleteHere it is, in the DSM (Dybbuks and Spirits Manual). American Psychiatricks Association.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, if the husband refuses to give a Get, could be he's possessed, and hid it from his wife, and if so diagnosed by a licensed Exorcist, she may be entitled to a Heter...
How about researching the story of the Gra's body being found whole in 1950, and that those who saw the body did not survive the year?
ReplyDeleteI have long suspected that the Chafetz Chaim's family, including Rav Leib and Rav Mendel, did not want him portrayed as a mystic, or as a "frummer". This was in line with the common cultural trend among Orthodox Lithuanian Jewry, skeptical about anything supernatural, and critical of excessive piety, which is in a nutshell the what Making of a Gadol and the controversy in its wake were all about.
ReplyDeleteI don't thing either of the above personalities had any first-hand knowledge of this story, only their personal desire to fit it in with whatever "their" Chafetz Chaim looked like.
Where can that story be sourced?
ReplyDeleteAbout a year ago they found the first movie/moving images of the Chofetz Chaim with his son and an entourage at the Agudah Convention in 1929.
ReplyDelete1923?
ReplyDeleteHow is this relevant?
ReplyDeletehttp://ou.org.s3.amazonaws.com/publications/ja/5759winter/leiman.htm
ReplyDeletehttp://seforim.blogspot.co.il/2012/09/who-is-buried-in-vilna-gaons-tomb.html
This is not the only story involving the Chofetz Chaim that ought to be viewed with some skepticism. It is an urban legend legend that the Chofetz Chaim poured his wrath on a cheder menahel for ejected a poor orphaned boy from his cheder because of a dispute over tuition, This boy, Leib Brohnshtayn, grew up to be the infamous Leon Trotsky who brought death pain and suffering upon millions of his Jewish brethren. The Chofetz Chaim blamed the hapless manahel for the Yiddishe tzores later inflicted by Trotsky
ReplyDeleteThe problem with this narrative is that it never could have happened, at least not with Leon Trotsky. You see, Trotsky, (or Brohnshtayn) grew up neither poor nor orphaned. His parents were prosperous farmers and they lived to raise Trotsky's children from his first wife.
Trotsky never attended cheder, nor did his family have the slightest interest in him gaining a traditional Jewish education. A photo of him taken in 1888, when Brohnshtayn was but 8 years old, shows him appearing bareheaded . The spoken language in the Brohnshtayn home was not Yiddish, but rather Surzhyk, a mixture of Russian and Ukrainian. At the age of 9, Trotsky was sent to study at a German school in Odessa.
Therefore, although it is certainly true that as Leon Trotsky, he participated in and even instigated the events that caused the deaths of millions, it is highly improbable that his origins had any connections whatsoever with traditional Judaism in his childhood.
Aside from these minor details the story of the Chofetz Chaim vis-a-vis Leon Trotsky is very charming and captivating. Too bad, it isn't true.
The difference is the source. What is the source of the Trotsky story? On the other hand, the source of the one specific dibbuk story is Rav Elchanan Wasserman. Big difference.
ReplyDeleteAnd we know that the source of the dibbuk story is Rav Elchonon Wasserman exactly how? Is there a recording of Rav Wasserman relating the events? Or perhaps there is a manuscript in Rav Elchonon's handwriting describing in detail what had occurred and said manuscript's provenance is not to be denied because it attested to be authentic by a panel of graphologists?
ReplyDeleteOh wait, I got it now. A certain individual heard from a R' Yosef Steinkvetcher who said over in the name of Rav Usher Chlop who heard from R' Benzion Sobel who heard it from Rav Elconon Wasserman, and that the original certain individual whose name is not known because the he related all the events in precise detail to Dovid Gimpel Hartzohnreiser just moments before he perished at Maidenek.
Oops, gotta go, I have an appointment for a hair transplant.
And we know that the source of the dibbuk story is Rav Elchonon Wasserman exactly how?
ReplyDeleteBefore launching into your little diatribe, you may just want to wait for the answer. Well, assuming that you are actually are willing to engage the truth.
There are people who are currently alive who have heard it directly from Rav Elchanan. If you have several people, from all over, saying that they heard the same thing from Rav Elchanan, then to the rational mind, it is highly probable to be true. Thirty years ago, there quite a bit of around who were able to testify to it. One of those people being Reb Yaakov Kaminetzky.
Oh wait, you're currently on the operating table.
Sir:
ReplyDeleteUntil a decade ago, there were many talmidim of Rav Elchanan alive who heard ther story from him.
For instance, Rav Elya Jurkanski of the Mirrer Yeshiva related to his students that his rebbi would relate it to his talmidim every Purim until 1934.
If you would like a recording, the Uvlechtecha vaderech series has a recording of Rabbi AD Niznik Chief Rabbi of Montreal relating the story as he heard it from Rav Elchanan. He prefaces his story by saying that he is recording it for posterity because there are those who have begun doubting it.
I don't think Nathan Kamenetzki is denying that Rav Elchanan, an eyewitness, believed the story to be true, rather that there were other eyewitnesses who contested his diagnosis of the girl's condition.
To show that there are popular stories in Chareidi folklore that are not necessarily factually accurate.
ReplyDeleteIf Rav Yitzchok Silber is to be believed he says that one of the people who moved the body showed him the place years after, indicating that at least some of them survived well past the year.
I heard that Rabbi Eliach did not include this story in his book Hagaon despite its popularity because of serious doubts as to its veracity.
That still doesn't prove if the cause was supernatural or mental illness.
ReplyDeleteReally? It would be nice if you would hear the precise details, down to the window.
ReplyDeleteMy father-in-law heard it from R. Elchonon. R. Elchonon used to tell the story on Purim.
ReplyDeleteDo you have any non-recent textual sources for such a concept of dibbuk? Of course all Torah Jews must believe in metaphysical reality, but this is a very specific thing and its not clear what the source of such a concept is. I don't have any personal bias about it but I'd just like to know if there's a reliable source in Chazal, Rishonim etc.
ReplyDeleteHuh? Yes, no, maybe so - mahn dechar shmeih?
ReplyDeleteHealthy skepticism is fine, and most Lithuanian talmidei chachamim were endowed with a healthy dose of it. These were people who doubted any story that was not authenticated by a reliable source, and yet this story was one they knew to be true. There are too many talmidim of Rav Elchanan who heard the story from him to have any doubts that Rav Elchanan related it. why he did not transcribe it is a valid question(dsepite that he did not transcribe even the Kovetz Shiurim - only Kovetz Haros). But it is too difficult to deny.
ReplyDeleteIt's very very sad that anybody actually believes that debating this stuff is worth even five minutes of time. What happened to our real obligations of making sure every person has a parnasa, is healthy, has a place to live? How did our beautiful religion of kindness get hijacked into discussing bubbeh maysehs. Don't we even have explicit pesukim against this stuff? Tamim tihyeh im hashem elokecha.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, one of the rishonim says that Binyamin was a werewolf. (Binyamin zev yitraf.) Do we have to believe this, as well? And why not Yehuda? (Gur aryeh Yehuda.) What about Yissachar? (Yissachar chamor garem.)
ReplyDeleteAgain, the focus of Judaism is on kindness and good deeds. Nothing else. Don't get sidetracked.
In Yeshivah I heard it said (and I don't know whether to believe it or not) that the Brisker Rov recounted to Rav Isser Zalman Meltzer that his grandfather, the Bais Halevi would place his his hand in the flame of the Havdalah candle on Motzeh Shabbos and when he removed his hand it was completely unscathed, because fire is powerless of the righteous.
ReplyDeleteRav Isser Zalman responded with a polite smile. The Brisker Rov returned ," i know, I know. I wouldn't have believed it either, but I heard this story from my father, so I am compelled to believe it.
I have no horse in this race. I care not a whit whether the Chofetz Chaim did or did not exorcise a dibbuk. In my eyes he is the same great Tzaddik either way, and the same applies to Rav Elchonon Wasserman. What I can't understand is the emotion invested in the story. Why are people so compelled to believe it? If the conversation between the Brisker Rov and Rav Isser Zalman did happen, than it signifies that Rav Isser Zalman remained unimpressed with the narrative, irrespective of fact that it was the Brisker Rov, (who was certainly a match to Rav Elchonon in integrity) who related it. Likewise, The Brisker Rov, according to this tale would be unwilling to accept the veracity of anyone save his father.
I have certain reservations that cause me pause before I can accept the well known version of the Chofetz Chaim - dibbuk saga, but I am not compelled to disbelieve it. The story is not in sync with other dibbukim stories, but I can accept that I may be wrong. Why is everyone else so upset about skepticism to the point of obsession?
Look, the legend of the Maharal and his creation of a Golem are part of our folklore. But some serious researchers find discrepancies with the saga and therefore choose to be skeptical about the very existence of the famed Golem. Now, the source of Golem story is the son-in-law of the Mahral who published it sometime after the demise of the Maharal. Is not the son-in-law of the Maharal a reliable source? Perhaps. But perhaps not, in light of the fact that such an event should have been commemorated like the Miracle of Hanukkah, but there there is no other corroborating evidence. No mentioned of it in the Pinkus, or community log of Prague which has been preserved intact.
I have no emotional investment in the Golem saga . I can accept that it either was true or not, although I must confess that I do tend to be somewhat skeptical of that as well. The Sifrei Maharal are still the Sifrei Maharal, regardless of the existence or non-existence of the Golem. The Sifrei Chofetz Chaim are still the Siifrei Chiofetz Chaim whether he chased away a dibbuk or not.
Barry - you are quite "creative" in misinterpreting verses. Please show me anyone who claims that "tamim " has anything to do with you claims?
ReplyDeleteCan someone please tell me who cares. What is the practical difference whether the story is true? We can all agree that the Chofetz Chayim was a Gaon and Tzaddik, as was Rav Elchanan Wasserman Ztzl, HYD. What is being gained over here by saying that the story with the Dybbuk is true,or not true?
ReplyDelete