Every home is big on glass in a Toms River, New Jersey, neighborhood
called North Dover. Windows let in the sun, or show off chandeliers in
multistory entrance halls.
These days, though, most homeowners
draw the blinds, retreating from brushes with a fast-growing Orthodox
Jewish community that’s trying to turn a swath of suburban luxury 10
miles (16 kilometers) from Atlantic beaches into an insular enclave. The
rub, a township inquiry found, is “highly annoying, suspicious and
creepy” tactics used by some real-estate agents.
They show up on doorsteps to tell owners that if they don’t sell,
they’ll be the only non-Orthodox around. Strangers, sometimes several to
a car, shoot photos and videos. When they started pulling over to ask
children which house was theirs, parents put an end to street-hockey
games.
“It’s like an
invasion,” said Thomas Kelaher, Toms River’s three-term mayor, who’s
fielded complaints from the North Dover section since mid-2015. “It’s
the old throwback to the 1960s, when blockbusting happened in
Philadelphia and Chicago with the African-American community -- ‘I want
to buy your house. You’ll be sorry if you don’t.’ It scares the hell out
of people.”
The upset has its roots in adjacent Lakewood, home to yeshivas including
Beth Medrash Govoha, among the world’s biggest centers for Talmudic
study. Scholars typically marry young and start large families that
maintain strict gender roles and limit interaction with secular society.
Rabbi Avi Schnall, state director of Agudath Israel of America, which
represents Orthodox Jews on political, social and religious issues, said
a few sales agents “are overly aggressive and making a bad name for the
others.” He declined to say whether anti-Semitism is at work, but said
the “extent of the anger” in Lakewood’s neighboring towns is deep,
fueling opposition to a learning center, a boarding school, dormitories
and other proposals. [...]
Anti-semites who don't want Jews moving into their neighborhood.
ReplyDeleteIn 10-15 years these Jews will be the electoral majority of this town.
Take a look at Lakewood - the traffic is ridiculous and the way the homes are squashed together in developments is disgusting, overcrowded is an understatement. Illegal basement apartments, bypassing zoning laws by having inspectors who are "compensated" for looking away is just a tip of the iceberg. I wouldn't want my town looking like that either. And the driving in Lakewood is even more horrible - people simply have no respect for basic safety laws. How this can be construed as anti semitism is beyond me. I wouldn't want them being my neighbors either.
ReplyDeleteReminds me of Chareidim in Israel preferring not to have secular neighbors. Nothing wrong with it. Like likes like.
ReplyDeleteWe have the same situation in the Town of Ramapo. "Frum" developers have run roughshod over the zoning laws making Monsey into a horrible mess. I don't blame the residents of Tom's River at all.
ReplyDeleteWhen these "buyers" began stopping kids on the street to ask which houses were theirs they should have been arrested. That's extremely creepy.
ReplyDeleteThat never happened. The accusations against the local Jewish real estate agents are entirely false without a shred basis in the truth. This are simple old-fashioned Jew-haters wanting to keep their town judenrein. If to achieve that goal by falsely accusing real estate agents will help their cause, they have no compunctions lying. And that's exactly what these Jew-haters are doing.
ReplyDeleteIn America it is illegal to try to stop Jews from moving into your town.
ReplyDeleteI see. So since Lakewood=Jews this town wants to keep out Jews from anywhere,
ReplyDeleteGuess what? Illegal in America to stop a demographic from moving into your town.
The Jews will win this fight and this town will be majority Jewish within not too many years. The local anti-semites will be the first to sell not wanting to live near the hated Jew.
In Ramapo they simply change the zoning laws to permit the building they sought. That would make it legal. A growing population needs housing for their young new families. You can't build in the over-saturated city that has no building space left. And the rural people say not in my backyard and the suburban people say the same. So in a democracy if the majority's elected representatives vote to permit the building than that's what it is.
ReplyDeleteHow do you know that it never happened?
ReplyDeleteGuess what? There definitely is such a thing as anti-semitism, but there is definitely a way to severely exacerbate it by adding fuel to the fire. Please stop ignoring and excusing what is, without question, improper behavior. It is a chillul Hashem the way that the gentiles are being hounded day after day by realtors and others to have their houses sold. It makes no difference whether it is legal or not. It is also a chillul Hashem the way zoning laws have been disregarded in Lakewood over the years, resulting in the destruction of the town's infrastructure. I have had over the years much contact with non-Jews in nearby areas, and have encountered very little, if any, overt or otherwise hinted anti-semitism. What are you unwilling to understand about a group of people who has lived a certain way for their entire lives to not want to have their way of life disrupted by a bunch of intruders? I assume that you are the type of person who accuses a policemen of being a nazi when he pulls you over for a traffic infraction.
ReplyDeletePlease. It's all influence-peddling, sad to say. It's about enriching developers, not creating housing for the otherwise-homeless.
ReplyDeleteAll of politics is influence-peddling. That's what politics is all about and has been for as long as this Republic has existed.
ReplyDeleteIt may have always existed, but it is not legal, contrary to your claim ("That would make it legal"). It is corrupt.
ReplyDeleteMy "that would make it legal" comment applied to the local zoning board changing zoning regulations to accommodate local property owners desire to build differently than current zoning regulations permit.
ReplyDeleteI also didn't realize the term influence peddling referred to bribery. That isn't what I meant when I used that term. I meant something more akin to lobbying and perhaps using political favors such as vote campaigning. I think such lobbying or advocating for zoning changes is legal.
And any way you look at it, the frum community is in constant need of additional housing in frum neighborhoods.
No question additional housing is needed. That's why it's spreading into Toms River. That's fine. The problem is with massive overcrowding, which is done for the benefit of developers, not home buyers.
ReplyDeleteWhether Lakewood or Monsey, I don't see how only moving into adjacent existing towns/neighborhoods could ever provide sufficient needed housing without large scale building of new homes.
ReplyDeleteThey changed the zoning in areas where the local residents did NOT want it and the existing families suddenly had these monstrosity buildings suddenly in our midst. That's why other areas see this coming and protest new changes it like they are doing tonight at Ramapo Town Hall to block new development on Spook Rock Rd.
ReplyDeleteYou do not need to increase the density for frum families at the expense of those who moved to these areas to avoid that density. If you want dense housing move into nice areas of the Bronx where there are shuls struggling to survive.
ReplyDeleteThen you wait until then and I'll bet the Jewish majority there in the future won't allow the ultra-dense housing they escaped from.
ReplyDeleteYou build them planned out for the density, not shoehorned into streets designed for single or two-family houses.
ReplyDeleteExactly. The way it's done currently by the backscratching cabal is to maximize the value of developers' holdings by cramming in large numbers of units without worrying about traffic, parking, emergency services. They game the system like you wouldn't believe and take care of their friends.
ReplyDeleteThey don't need to make up such stories and you don't need to call them Jew-haters. These people saw what greedy developers did to Lakewood and they don't want the same thing happening to their town.
ReplyDeleteRamapo is now over-saturated because we didn't anticipate how many units the developers would squeeze in. That's why we now attend the planning and zoning board meetings to voice our objections and why places like Toms River are speaking out
ReplyDeleteI do understand that people feel uncomfortable when other types of people move in and affect a change in their neighborhoods. Frum Jews who live clustered together in their cul de sac would also not like if a non Jewish family would move in and suddenly they would have pritzus in their previously tzniusdiger street. But does that mean that the strangers who are looking for homes and wanting to settle there are doing something wrong? No it does not. And is it wrong to cold canvass? Sales people of all sorts try to solicit their goods and services and it does get annoying often but does that mean it is wrong to do so? It is also not wrong to ask someone if they would like to sell their house. Especially since usually the offers are higher than they were before the Jews set eyes on the area, so it's fair to think that the person might be willing or even happy to sell and get a just as good house or a better house in a similar type of neighborhood elsewhere. When you talk about the destruction of Lakewood's infrastructure I don't see what you mean, especially since what one person calls a destroyed neighborhood is another person's ideal neighborhood. So there is no wrong doing and therefore no chillul Hashem here in the fact that Jews are looking to move into Tom's River.
ReplyDeleteDevelopers can't sell what's isn't wanted by the buyers. Jews prefer living crowded because of the walking distance on Shabbos and similar reasons. Zoning laws are made by the people for the people and are designed to satisfy the majority in an locality. I the demographics change and the new majority has a different preference then the zoning laws will change accordingly. That is the nature of the world that things evolve and neighborhoods evolve and these changes aren't an indication of wrong doing on anyone's part.
ReplyDeleteWe are thankful for the development of Lakewood and we aren't angry at the developers and we don't refer to them in a derogatory way. It is for good reason that Lakewood is now the fastest growing frum community anywhere Ka"h because many many people want to move there and actually love Lakewood. So clearly all of hose people aren't upset about the development of Lakewood.
ReplyDeleteBut you know there are some Jews that when they hear a goy saying dirty Jew they actually start seeing themselves as dirty. How sad. If goyim despise the presence of the Jews, there will be some Jews who will begin feeling self despise. And them some might just turn the despise onto their brothers. Again how sad.
Maybe you like the horrendous traffic in Lakewood but most of us who lived here for years in Monsey for years before the developers began urbanizing it despise it and we despise the developers who don't care about their fellow Jews who lived here. If anyone despised their fellows Jews it is the greedy developers who have to squeeze every last of foot of space.
ReplyDeleteWe don't like the traffic but it's a trade off. We like Lakewood as a package. And so do all of the people who are moving there in droves from other places. And we don't despise the developers and we don't feel that they are excessively greedy, just regular successful business people, unless one might consider any go-getter greedy. But in America that should not be the attitude.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand the complaint against the developers. They buy land develop it in a very tight way and plenty of people want the finished product. If they wouldn't they wold not buy or rent there. It's normal business supply and demand. No wrong doing in that.
But you know there are some Jews that when they hear a goy saying dirty
ReplyDeleteJew they actually start seeing themselves as dirty. How sad.
No. How stupid. Referring to your comment, of course. The overdevelopment is real, and the traffic is real, and the decline of the quality of life is real. And it was all preventable, if the people we elected would have been working for the greater good. That's what's really sad.
Yes, it absolutely is wrong and rude and unmannerly to knock on people's doors and ask them to sell their house.
ReplyDeleteIt's also disconcerting for residents to have cars parked in the cul-de-sacs observing, taking pictures and so on. Anyone with a bit of sense understands that.
As for the offers being higher, so what? They'll be even higher ten years down the line. Don't pretend you're doing the guy a favor by knocking on his door. You're doing yourself the favor (although not the rest of us who now must deal with negative perceptions), not the poor guy who likes his neighborhood and is not interested in having nudniks harass him.
Jews prefer living crowded because of the walking distance on Shabbos and similar reasons
ReplyDeleteBaloney. As witness the many, many uncrowded houses being sold to frume yidden in Toms River and Jackson. We're not talking about living out of walking distance, we're talking about overcrowding, as you know perfectly well.
So the current residents who DON'T want crowded housing have a right to use the existing zoning laws to maintain their majority. Jews are not barred from buying and moving into single family homes. What the zoning and does do can do is bar absentee owners from buying a house and making it into a dorm or a few houses next to each other to tear down and put up multi-unit dwellings.
ReplyDeleteWe don't like the traffic but it's a trade off. We like Lakewood as a package.
ReplyDeletePoint is, it didn't have to be a package. If development would have been done the right way, we could have retained the quality of life that existed here previously.
I don't understand the complaint against the developers.
Anyone who doesn't understand the problems with the very, very comfy and incestuous relationship between elected township officials and developers (as well as other conflicts of interest that reign here) has his head buried very, very deeply in the sand. Enjoy the kool-aid, fella.
With tens of thousands of chasunas every year, where should the new couples live if there isn't sufficient housing within walking distance within an existing community and shul?
ReplyDeleteIf the developers stopped developing, where would all the tens of thousands of new couples needing housing each year move?
ReplyDeleteBrooklyn was rural in the 1800s. In the 1900s Brooklyn was suburban. And now its rural with no room to build new housing. Lakewood was rural too. Then suburban. Now becoming urban. Same with Monsey. I'm sure some in rural Brooklyn didn't want Brooklyn to change its rural character and become suburban. And once it was there were suburban Brooklynites who didn't want Brooklyn to change its suburban character and become urban. And the same with Monsey and Lakewood. Neighborhoods, villages and towns change characters.
Should Brooklyn and Queens have remained rural and kept their farms so not to change their character?
I will pretend you didn't use insulting language. What is the greater good you refer to? The Frum population grew exponentially Ka"h since the earlier settlers moved to Monsey. Most people don't have the means to start their own Frum neighborhood in a new place. Where should everybody move to? Obviously they want to live in a Frum area, and maybe specifically near their parents or kehillos they grew up in. Is that wrong? So these neighborhoods evolved as they did. I know that for those who lived there for many years there is a loss of quality of life in a certain respect but change happens and it doesn't mean that anyone acted wrongfully. Lets say for arguments sake that someone bought a house 30 years ago when he was in his twenties. It was not crowded in those days. Now his children are getting married one by one and they want to live near by. Is there anything wrong with that? All of his friends and neighbors are in the same situation. So what should happen? So the market has a life of it's own for better or for worse. Many people's desires are being fulfilled with the changes but many others are not. That's life. But nobody did anything wrong in all of this.
ReplyDeleteSalesmen have been knocking on doors always. There is nothing wrong with approaching someone to make a business offer.
ReplyDeleteI agree that camping out to observe and take pictures isn't mentchlich but I don't think that happens for the most part.
I'm not pretending that the intention is to do the guy a favor. That would be silly to say. But I am saying that they are not offering something bad to the home owner. If there would be harassment then the police would be called, I can assure you, but making an offer doesn't constitute harassment and it isn't rude at all.
If you like it that way, fine. The developers got what they wanted and those who wanted to buy/rent
ReplyDeletetheir sardine-cans got what they wanted before the locals caught on what
was happening. But the people in Toms River and on Spook Rock Rd ( http://www.lohud.com/story/news/local/rockland/2016/03/08/ramapo-spook-rock-development-proposals-draw-protest/81489278/ ) don't want another minicity like they see happened next door to them. The pack-em-in developers.
So how will the people in Toms River prevent that from happening, even assuming it is at risk of happening?
ReplyDeleteI will pretend you didn't use insulting language.
ReplyDeleteOh, so insulting people in ordinary language is okay? You're problem is only with insulting language, huh?
Your invented reasons for the overcrowding are precisely that --- invented. They bear no resemblance to reality. As I wrote elsewhere, your head is buried in the sand.
Salesmen have been knocking on doors always.
ReplyDeleteYou make my argument for me. If the best you can do is compare these annoying people to door-to-door salesmen, who are the butt of every joke and hated by all, then you've got nuthin'.
They can do stuff with zoning to make it harder to build shuls; they can crack down on illegal shuls; they can make it hard to get permits for stuff etc. They have passed an ordinance of some kind prohibiting knocking on doors to get sales. Some individuals have been doing various nasty tricks, like organizing to take up all available parkings spots near an open house, and other more distasteful things.
ReplyDeleteIt's a pity. Most of the real estate agents working there are mentschlich, and aren't in anyone's face. But there are always the aggressive operators for whom anything goes.
It doesn't matter how you paint it. What matters is how they, and for that matter, most of the world, sees it. We are not talking about trying to sell something to someone, which is annoying enough. Some of these people have been living in these houses, and definitely their neighborhood, for a greater part of their lives. They do not appreciate having their door knocked on a few times a week with pushy realtors desperate to make a sale asking them to part with what is considered their most prized profession. The source of the problem is that people such as yourself are unwilling or unable to understand this simple piece of common sense.
ReplyDeleteMy father now has to attend public hearings instead of sitting and learning at those times because a developer keeps trying to replace what was originally a single family house with a 6-unit monstrosity. So not only does this so-called Congregation Blauvelt (which is NOT a shul) cause my father and mother and their neighbors agmos nefesh, they cause bitul Torah.
ReplyDeleteDestruction of Lakewood's infrastructure? When was the last time you tried driving anywhere in Lakewood? And if you think it's not bad now, just wait five or ten years when it will be absolutely unbearable.
ReplyDeleteI hate to break this to you, but not everything is about money to these people. The average gentile lives a simple life and is not lacking for money and does not wish to be pressured to part from his house or neighborhood.
What contribution do flippers do outside of being meyaker the shaar for no good reason? The buyer who ends up buying the house does not need an unnecessary in between hit and run flipper raising prices through the roof. I think this is a rip off parnassa. How is this different from hiking the prices of staples like meat and fish before yom tov?
ReplyDeleteThe Jewish buyers in Toms River aren't proposing any zoning changes in Toms River. In fact they aren't even trying to build anything new altogether in Toms River. Those Jews are simply purchasing existing homes and properties in Toms River.
ReplyDeleteThe Bronx was rural too . Today it is urban and has been for a long time. And there are is plenty of safe (even safer than Midwood according to statistics) urban space with struggling shuls like one originally led by Rav Yehuda Leib Isbee, zt'l, the brother-in-law of Rav Gedaliah Schorr, zt'l. One shul in that area, Pelham Parkway, was sold to a CHURCH just about a year ago. If these people need an URBAN area where to live, let them go to the Bronx, Yonkers and Mt. Vernon. Here's a shul for sale in Yonkers, let them build there. http://www.showcase.com/#&&/wEXAQURV29ya2Zsb3dIaXN0b3J5SUQFJDg5ODBjZTIwLTQxZTEtNDdhZS1iZjA2LWM0YTYwOTJmMThiZp3M8+O6KKaAIIrRryr2NUVBsRdz
ReplyDeleteIt's normal business supply and demand. No wrong doing in that.
ReplyDeleteI agree with this, as long as the tactics used are respectful...
It's also illegal to put 24 young men into a single family home and use it as a dormitory without a sprinkler system. http://www.nj.com/ocean/index.ssf/2016/03/owner_of_home_in_lakewood_fire.html
ReplyDeleteIf a Jew acts dirty I don't need to hear a goy say it. In fact I deplore the one who showed his filthiness to the goyim. That's precisely what I saw happen in Washington DC with Barry Freundel and what this piece of filth put on the public airwaves in Nevada ( http://therabbishow.com/wp-content/Rabbi-Show-Audio/Feb%2027%202011/rabbi%20pt%201%20227.mp3 ) because we give a pass to those among us who prey upon our own and then convey it to the outside world. How sad that you sigh and do not see how the door to Yitzchak Avinu's brocha to Eisav is being opened and you do nothing to close it. (http://www.mesora.org/EisavsBracha.html)
ReplyDeleteWas it wrong to change the character of the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens from rural to urban? Why should Ramapo or Lakewood be different?
ReplyDeleteThey're mostly not trying to stop anyone from buying houses so far as I know. They don't appreciate the aggressive tactics. There are some who probably would like to stop frum Jews from buying b/c they're afraid that the place will eventually turn into a Lakewood in terms of uncontrolled development. Which, I'm sorry to say, they are correct about, if the frum oilam ever gets a majority.
ReplyDeleteRural meant something quite different before the proliferation of cars and communications we have today. And I am sure there were people century ago upset when their neighbors changed their farms into housing developments. But that happened already for better or worse. And they did it on large tracts, not shoehorned into tiny lots between single families who want it to stay like that in their retirement years.
ReplyDeleteA chazir developer bought a single family house down the block from my parents is forcing them and the other elderly residents who have lived here over 50 years to keep going to public hearings because despite being turned down he keeps resubmitting for a variance. Why should these senior citizens have to keep running every couple to Ramapo Town Hall? This is a supposedly "frum" developer. Does respect for elders mean nothing?
Frankly it's perfectly legal .the legal definition of dormitory is not 25 people living in one house in your judgment it might be overcrowded but just the fact that we all learn at the same school does not a dormitory make . fact is we do not have the funds secular schools have to get off the ground and yes we got to be a little scrappy to get things going they are looking for a proper campus but no we cannot do with their way we simply do not have the funds . I do not know of any yeshiva ever started off with all the bells and whistles each and every yeshiva started off in basements rundown tenement buildings and yes even renovated stables .
ReplyDeleteYou might not like it neither do I but two points first of all Lakewood was a playground for the rich a very very very long time ago since then I recall back in the 1980s when Lakewood was a slum you could not walk on monmouth Avenue after dark all those glorious hotels turned into boardinghouses crack dens and worse ,crime was rampant . The Jews came in and we rehabilitated and tore down the whole town ,something which our neighbors in other towns should be very thankful for we have turned Lakewoode into a economic powerhouse for all of Ocean County , can you imagine Lakewood looking like Camden with all of New Jersey pouring in funds to keep it going ? Has anyone ever thought about how many jobs we have created for our neighboring towns . yes the infrastructure is very old take for example Ridge ave neighborhood the infrastructure dates back to 1910 even if they build small little houses you would have tremendous traffic since back then most people did not have two or three cars per family .yes basement apartments did aggravate the situation , but that brings me to my next point we all complain about overcrowding but we all enjoy the fact that till lately housing was affordable .whether or not you live in Lakewood your children might some day ,and whether or not you live in the basement or upstairs in the proper house if not for the basement situation houses with be out of reach for most .
ReplyDeleteWhy do you assume that it was improper behavior every other claim which can be verified as complete fantasy , they claim Jews don't pay property taxes when a quick web search shows each and every home how much it is assessed for whether or not they're up-to-date with their taxes never mind that most homes have mortgages where the service company will not allow the taxes to fall behind or they will foreclose . They claim there is garbage strewn all over I live here I don't see it . Maybe ones are not tended the way they would like or maybe there are toys strewn around, but no garbage . Maybe they have come back by on garbage day and then well yes there is garbage on the curb . It's sad when our fellow Jews take the anti-Semites word as fact . Look they don't want us there they will use any tactic they can and they are very limited in what they can do so blaming it all on the realtors legally at this point is their only option .
ReplyDeleteYou're not being pressured they are being paid far more than they ever dreamt for their homes and they are happily selling .they are selling like hot cakes! Just take a look at the Mls listings
ReplyDeletePushy salesman don't make business , and sooner or later MoveOn to desk jobs , professional salesman do it right it's hard to believe that people were intimidated to sell since the average person to intimidate even if he decides to sell will use a different agent salesmen are sweet talkers by definition. the only thing which doesn't make sense is that they had many people knocking on their doors . But that people intimidated them is pure baloney no one ever made a sale that way.
ReplyDeleteHi it's time for you to visit Lakewood no matter how bad it is it does not look like kaser village, come by for some chulent, will leave the light on for you
ReplyDeleteYes that is the way of the world the developers think about themselves the same way the grocer does but ultimately it does a service for the population as a whole . Reality is our children would have nowhere to live if the zoning would require one house per acre and to build a religious infrastructure in another town never mind the opposition from the locals which even we were as sweet and cuddly like angels they would oppose us moving in and is extremely difficult financially and otherwise so next time you drive by one of those huge monstrosities realize that besides making developers rich , some young couple starting off is getting a break on the rent.
ReplyDeleteThat's a load of crap! This is what the law says -
ReplyDelete52:27D-198.9 Definitions relative to installation of fire suppression systems in student dormitories; requirements.
3. a. Notwithstanding any law, rule or regulation to the contrary, all
buildings used as dormitories, in whole or in part, or similar
accommodations to house students at a public or private school or at a
public or private institution of higher education, shall be equipped
throughout with an automatic fire suppression system in accordance with
the provisions of this section. For the purpose of this act:
(1)"Dormitories" means buildings, or portions thereof, containing rooms
which are provided as residences or for overnight sleeping for
individuals or groups, and includes those residences utilized by
fraternities or sororities which are recognized by or owned by a school
or institution of higher education, but does not include those
residences or multiple dwellings which are not recognized by or owned by
a school or institution of higher education.
(2)"Equipped throughout" means installed in the common areas as well as in the areas utilized for sleeping within a dormitory.
(3)"Common areas" means those areas within a building which are
normally accessible to all residents, including the corridors, lounge or
lobby areas, and areas which contain elements of fire hazards, such as
boiler rooms.
(4)"School" means a secondary school, military school, or a boarding school.
Baloney! There are plenty of places for young couples to live that don't have to be shoehorned into where existing residents don't want to be squeezed. Instead of building those houses with nice yards on the outskirts,THAT'S where the multi-unit homes can be planned and built in orderly fashion as some have been.
ReplyDelete"some young couple starting off is getting a break on the rent" Hahaha! Thanks for giving me a laugh.
ReplyDeleteI've been to Lakewood plenty of times, especially before when you could still drive through it safely and the chulent was worth going there. Unfortunately it's beginning to look like Kaser and your excuses sound like theirs.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea about what current rental costs are, but clearly all the thousands of new young couples starting out their newly married lives all need housing. And existing housing inventory is nowhere near what is needed for those looking for housing in this area. And they should be able to live in affordable (whether rental or homeowner) housing in this town.
ReplyDeleteAnd no one will object to building new housing there? Otherwise new housing has to be built somewhere for the thousands of young couples getting married every year.
ReplyDeleteOf course. They are so happy to sell. That explains why they have gotten together to stop realtors from knocking on their doors. It's because they are happily selling!
ReplyDeleteShoehorned? What's wrong with knocking down a small house on a 50 x 150 lot and replacing it with a duplex with 2 basement apartments per side? You only need to find room for another six or eight cars in front of the house. . .And what's wrong with putting a couple of strips of connected houses twenty-five feet from a busy street like County LIne Rd? There's plenty of room for the cars tp back into incoming traffic each morning. . . Come on, what's the matter with you?
ReplyDeleteDid you ever hear of something called "blocbusting?" Look it up. Do you know how many realtors there are in Lakewood all trying to sell or buy the same houses?
ReplyDeleteYes very vocal minority you can check the MLS listings to see how many are actually selling that proves my point that for the most part its business as usual. a realtor relationship with his client can go on for months, if it's not amicable it's simply won't work I have to negotiate on price etc. you cannot accomplish that with threats .
ReplyDeleteBlockbusting is not 100 realtors knocking on one door trying to make a buck, as wrong as that might be. Blockbusting is goons coming in after dark threatening look it up .
ReplyDeleteI don't know where you got these laws from whether it's New York or New Jersey but never mind , read it yourself unless it's owned by the school or recognized which in itself is a very vague and ambiguous term which it's in our case not necessarily either . But you're missing my main point which is we can both agree that overcrowding is absolutely horrible but you have to see the beneficial aspect of it if you're looking at your own personal life you won't see it since you might not need it but if you have children who are starting off in the workforce and don't want to live necessarily in Monticello New York it's very very hard to find affordable housing in established Jewish communities . Affordable housing almost never looks nice it's a fact of life necessary for the continuity of the community or else you end up with something like Flatbush where the next-generation cannot continue in the same community as their own parents and eventually the parents are moving out to join their children. the same follows with yeshivas you might have an established school to send your children to but if you investigated how it started it was in someone's basement . by the way the chulent still worth it.
ReplyDeleteHmm, You right. Shoehorned is probably not the right phrase. Perhaps this is more illustrative
ReplyDeleteThat's right, look at the MLS listings. Then go to those homes. NOT to the ones that are NOT on the MLS listings BECAUSE THEY DON"T WANT TO SELL!
ReplyDeleteFirst of all those are New Jersey laws and the main reason those particular laws were written was BECAUSE OF A DORMITORY FIRE IN WHICH STUDENTS D_I_E_D !!! ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boland_Hall_fire ) THERE IS NOTHING BENEFICIAL NOR ALLOWED ACCORDING TO HALACHA ABOUT VIOLATING DINA DE MALCHUSEI DINA, PUTTING PEOPLE INTO DANGER !!
ReplyDeleteI am shouting because not only is your reasoning pathetic, it is against halacha! And my nephew was in the illegal dormitory that burned in Lakewood! Had I known before I would have told my brother he didn't belong in a yeshiva that violates the law. So unless you know what you are talking about, don't say it!
Unfortunately in this case you are the one who does know what reality is. There is some exaggeration by some goyim in Tom's River after the fact but you are being blind to the fact there have been realtors who have bothered homeowners to sell their houses. I have seen houses with signs THIS HOUSE IS NOT FOR SALE. So these claims by the goyim do have a basis in reality.
ReplyDeleteThe "thousands of young couples" don't have to squeeze into the same daled amos. They can move into many communities as Reb Yaakov Kaminetzsky, zt"l, said they should. A group of 20 couples at a time can bring Torah to those communities Conservative Judaism devastated. There were enough homes for sale and rent in the Oxford Circle section of Philadelphia in 2010 before NCYI sold the Young Israel shul there to Avodah Zara!!! A group of young couples could have gone there so there wouldn't be a Phat Bao Buddha idol standing where the Aron Kodesh used to be!!
ReplyDeleteThey can go to Pelham Parkway and Astor Gardens in the Bronx where the shuls are begging for people to make a minyan.
ReplyDeleteYou are talking about two different things. Taking over dilapidated sections and building them up up like in Spring Valley is one thing. Squeezing multi-unit dwellings in where people bought single family homes is quite another.
ReplyDeleteYou are exactly right! And there are communities like that all over the country, from New England, which used to be a major Jewish center all the way across the Midwest to the West Coast.
ReplyDeleteNo they don't have to move away from the town their parents, grandparents and siblings live and move to Yehupitsville, Bronx where they no no one, husband and wife have no relatives and is a neighborhood with little Jewish infrastructure. They should have the ability to reside and live where they lived all their lives without being forced out of town.
ReplyDeleteHence the need for new housing in Monsey and Lakewood for the thousands of young new couples marrying every year and needing housing.
No they don't have to move away from the town their parents, grandparents and siblings live and move to Yehupitsville, Philadelphia where they no no one, husband and wife have no relatives and is a neighborhood with little Orthodox Jewish and kosher infrastructure. They should have the ability to reside and live where they lived all their lives without being forced out of town.
ReplyDeleteHence the need for new housing in Monsey and Lakewood for the thousands of young new couples marrying every year and needing housing.
That's a load of hogwash! Most of the new residents squeezing into the new slums of Monsey are coming from Brooklyn away from their parents. And Monsey is a lot farther from Brooklyn than the Bronx is! And to say there is no Jewish infrastructure in the Bronx is an outright lie!
ReplyDeleteRight, because there is nowhere to build in Brooklyn. And prices on existing housing has skyrocketed to impossible to afford levels for couples. And Brooklyn is a similar community to Monsey and Lakewood. The Bronx and Philadelphia is a yehupitsville with nothing comparable to the Jewish and kosher infrastructure of Brooklyn, Monsey and Lakewood. And the Brooklyn couples want, and have a right, to live in a similar type neighborhood setting as where they grew up in, in midst of a large frum community.
ReplyDeleteSo the needs for newly built housing is great. And the only existing frum towns it is viable to build massive amounts of new housing for the massive amount of new young couples needing housing in an existing large frum town is Monsey and Lakewood.
So these young pishers have to push the old folks from their single-family homes with lawns and trees where they lived most of their lives into the hinterlands? Excuse me but you have the concept of kovod for zekainim backwards.
ReplyDeleteTell that to the anti-semites when they rise up.
ReplyDeleteStop making strawmen. I didn't say what you just said.
ReplyDeleteBy building new housing, the older established residents do not need to leave or move out of their single-family homes with lawns and trees.
ReplyDeleteIf the lawns and trees are on a different property, that neighboring property owner (whether a new owner or old owner) has no obligation to keep up the trees or lawns because neighbors have been enjoying the trees and lawns on other people's property until then. Their future lies in the perogitive of the property owner of those trees.
Very funny. Hardy har har. You know darn well the whole atmosphere of the block changes from suburban to urban with the lousy traffic the street was not designed to handle. That's why if someone nearby sells their house and the new speculator owner tries to get a zoning variance, the neighbors go to the public hearing to fight it. In the cases where the neighborhood is comprised of ELDERLY people who moved in 50-60 years ago it is a great tzar to cause them to have to go to town hall repeatedly. That is why I despise and abhor such developers. The young people want Jewish infrastructure? Let them build new communities like their parents did. Or better, let them REBUILD communities like Pelham Parkway before the few remaining shuls there also become churches and Buddhist temples.
ReplyDeleteThe parents buildings change the character of the town from rural to suburban. So the children building changing the character of the town from suburban to urban is going in the same direction of the previous generation who also changed the character of the town with their building.
ReplyDeleteAnd your proposition that people cannot request zoning changes if elderly people live in the neighborhood and oppose it, since that will necessitate them to go to town to oppose it, is completely untenable. People's legal rights are not abrogated because some elderly oppose the plan.
"It is sad that our fellow Jews take the anti-semites word as fact."
ReplyDeleteRav Avigdor Miller called it Jewish anti semitism...