Unfortunately I have not seen the psak itself. It had been expected that Rav Dovid Feinstein would reject the heter - after all it was obvious that it was a sad joke. The question remains did Rav Dovid Feinstein criticize those who had said the heter was valid? In addition will Rav Nota Greenblatt accept the psak?
Without the criticism of those who produced the heter and without the retraction of Rav Greenblatt - the heter now becomes simply a dispute between poskim and Tamar obviously will chose Rav Greenblatt.
Of greater importance, without the criticism of those who produced the heter and its retraction - the heter will remain a viable option for all those who want a quick and simple end to a marriage without having to worry about the Get process. All they need is to pay a therapist to declare their husband to have an incurable personality problem i.e., to certify they don't like them and that they can do better with another husband. The therapist doesn't have to even waste his time talking to the husband - he will simply accept what the wife tells him.
RDE, the amount of time - 41 days to come out with a p'sak seems to add credence to your concern, that in certain ways the heter is valid , and there is a mach'loket in the din. In truth, the p'sak of the heter would not be valid in any court of law , secular or a beis din because the issue at it's core is not halacha , but corruption and sheker
ReplyDeleteRav Dovid's psak may have been issued a while ago.
ReplyDeleteThe question remains did Rav Dovid Feinstein criticize those who had said the heter was valid?
ReplyDeleteIsn't the rejection itself the greatest criticism? Since it was not a hypothetical situation or psak - the complete rejection of the heter from any and every angle is serious criticism.
without the criticism of those who produced the heter and its retraction - the heter will remain a viable option for all those who want a quick and simple end to a marriage without having to worry about the Get process.
There are clowns who have been going the the "IBD." To those people, Tamar Epstein's adultery is irrelevant. To the rest of the world, after the results are in that the supposed "heter" is worthless, why would they emulate it? I don't see how it will now become worse.
The question is if it will be a missed or utilized opportunity of clearing the field of the annulment "rabbis" such as Shmully Feurst and his landsman, the RCA's "Av beis din" and the similar others. .
It could be that Rav Dovid out of the respect for Reb Yaakov Kaminetzsky's (zt'l) told R. Shmuel privately to make the situation right and is giving Reb Yaakov's son a chance to do teshuva. We do learn in Pirkei Avos not to despair of retribution so I have no doubt now that Rav Dovid Feinstein has made it clear the "heter" is worthless those responsible will get what they deserve.
ReplyDeleteליהודים היתה אורה
ReplyDeleteNow that the psak has been given, what remains to be done is to clear up this mess
ReplyDeleteHeads need to roll
Shmuel Kaminetsky needs to resign both from his yeshiva, and from the moetset
Will all you רשעים who spoke ill of Hagaon R David shlit"a apologize publicly for your horrible and sinful words???
ReplyDeleteNot me
ReplyDeleteDUVI SAYS: A letter came out on matzav.com overnight that seems to imply that a certain rabbi a son of one of the gedolie hador , retracts his flawed reasoning. I think at this point all further discussion on this matter is moot , we have to thank rav Aaron Feldman and rav Shlomo miller for being mocheh on this pirtzah , l think also this rabbi should stick to his day job and stop moonlighting as a posek, he can pasken yaleh viyovoi shalos if he knows the basic m”b , however shalois that need real pilatzois he should stay away from , also areas of kabbolah/ haskofah were his true colors have shown a few years ago. When it comes to Torah scholarship a jack of all trades is not enough we need masters
ReplyDeleteTHE TIME HAS COME NOW FOR THE RABBIS TO BAND TOGETHER AND TO DENOUNCE ORA AS THEY ARE GUILTY OF CREATING AGUNOT AND CREATING MACHLOKES
ReplyDeleteCan we get confirmation that Rav Kaminetzky shlit"a has ordered Tamar Epstein and her boyfriend to seperate and cease their adultery? And can we check if Mz. Epstein is complying?
ReplyDeleteMazal Tov. יישר כחך RDE for puting this on the front burner.
ReplyDeleteNow the underlying mistakes need to be rectified .....
כי לא יחפוץ במות המת כי אם בשובו מדרכו וחיה
ReplyDeleteI don't understand this post. How could RNG not accept this? The people on whom he was סומך have now gone scurrying away. What is left to hold onto?
ReplyDeleteOn a related note, everyone here should recognize the true Gadlus and Yashrus that resides in this psak. By undoing this evil, it will IYH strengthen marriage itself in our communities.
Certain mistakes on the part of leaders are unforgivable. There are no second chances. As we saw in this last week's haftarah with the maaseh of Shaul and Amalek.
ReplyDelete"Now that the psak has been given, what remains to be done is to clear up this mess."
ReplyDeleteAgreed. But not the way you want it, with a guillotine. It is time to for the get to be given and end the sordid mess.
As I have said from the beginning, I was skeptical as to the heter's validity, but that the cruelty perpetrated by AF on TE was wrong. That has not changed.
There is a public interest in knowing that rabbonim are no longer promoting and have denounced an invalid heter. But what is the public interest in checking up on Ms. Epstein other than to satisfy your peeping Tom desires?
ReplyDelete1. Are we going to see the psak of Reb Dovid Shlita ? Or, is the admission of Reb Sholom enough ?
ReplyDelete2. Did Reb Dovid interview the Reb Aaron Friedman and was the report of the rofeh mumcha brought into the B"D (with or without the permission of AF) ?
3. Was the Diary of Tamar reviewed by the BD (which basically invalidates all the claims of a mekach taus because she writes the real reasons for wanting the divorce in the diary) ?
4. Do the baalei devorim (legally and ahl pi din torah) have to respect the psak of Reb Dovid ? Were shtorei birrurim signed before the Din Torah ?
5. I presume that Reb Dovid didnt make public his psak because of the mamzer issue, and didnt want to pursue such an issue in public by "labeling" someone in print for the rest of his life.
6. Can TE legally continue to have trust in Reb Nota's psak ?
I am unfamiliar with the title Mz.
ReplyDeleteThat must be the one for a woman who had unlawfully gotten married to a second husband while she was still married to the first.
No. You and your ilk are 100 percent wrong, not 50 percent. Don't try to paint your position in a positive light. She will get the get when she complies to his requests, which it is how it should have been from the outset. I would also add as a prerequisite that he needs a full apology from Rosenbaum and the rest of the rabbis who caused him so much grief.
ReplyDeleteYou and others have nothing to say about Aharon Friedman. It was acknowledged long ago by the Vaad of Greater Washington that ONLY the Baltimore Bais Din has any authority in this matter. So why don't you agitate on them to come to a final resolution instead of continuing to stoke the fires of motzei shem ra against Aharon Friedman.
ReplyDeleteYou're wrong. The cruelty has been perpetrated by TE on AF, not vice versa. Her kidnapping his child and moving out-of-state before any court or beis din was involved was unconscionable. But her absconding from the beis din after she agree and signed to accept their verdict and then changing jurisdictions to a non-Jewish court in contradiction to both her previously agreed venue and kneged halacha was rishus. Especially her lying to get her husband to drop his civil suit in response to her misdeeds by promising him to accept the beis din, and then backing out of beis din and going to non-Jewish court after she tricked him into surrendering his rights in court.
ReplyDeleteBefore she gets a Get she must correct her misdeeds and undo her damages. The key to a Get is today in her own hands as it has been all along. Only she can get herself out of this terrible mess she now finds herself in.
The Baltimore BD has already stood behind AF and has agreed with AF in his actions. TE signed Shtorrei Birrurin with the BBD and therefore lives with the Psak of the Baltimore Bais Din. I would therefore not call AF's actions "cruel" when he is the one that has acted with the dayanim on his side.
ReplyDeleteIf AF does not comply with the BBD's orders, I am sure we should call out AF at that point.
The public should be assured that an adulteress whose commission of sin was done in a public manner has ceased her severe and public violations of Jewish Law.
ReplyDeleteLol, wishful thinking, heads will roll, AF is no longer the issue,
ReplyDeleteOy, here we go again. For the same money, why not just say that Mrs. TE should return to BD and end this saga?
ReplyDeleteAfter all is said and done, one has to play by the halachic rules. She's been trying it the other way...and nothing has worked. Let her return with the child to SS, restore the father's rights, sign an agreement, and get the Get. To return to the Get standoff now - as you seem to be trying to do - is foolhardy.
I dont remember you being skeptical at all, I do remember you criticising rabbi Roth and others for their critic of Greenblatt
ReplyDeleteThe rabbis who's judgement was found to extremely flawed need to disappear
I think it is time for all bloggers to take stock of what happened here.
ReplyDeleteEver since this story broke, there have been two camps. Many people, especially RDE's followers, made an assumption that this is a "Kamenetzky-Greenblatt heter". And that since "we" all know that the heter is worthless, it is clear that they were matir eishes ish. And therefore the Kamenetzkies must close down their yeshiva, resign from the Moetzes, we need to end the psuedo-gedolim charade, etc. There were those who insisted that the whole BD of RDF is just a coy to cover up this scandal, and in the end they will eithre bury the story or somehow otherwise provide cover for the Kams.
The Kamenetzkies insisted all along that a) Rav Shmuel had minimal involvement in all this, not in procuring the psak nor in paskening. b) Even Rav Sholom, who was involved, was never matir, he merely approached RNG on behalf of TE, and made the case for her. c) They allowed her to get married based on this psak, as they recognized RNG as a reliable posek. d) After certain rabanim got involved, Rav Shmuel said we should go to RDF and accept whatever he says.
This psak from the BD of Rdf and the letter from Rav Sholom seems to support the Kamenetzky version of what had been happening all along.
It is time to put aside our cynicism, and have more trust in our leadership.
Of course, at the same time, we must also thank Rav Eidenson for keeping this on the front burner, although he could have accomplished the same without the blaming and negative portrayal of our leadership.
First of all, Klal Yirsoel owes a great debt of gratitude to the esteemed brothers Rabbis Eidensohn who without their intrepid struggle this terrible breach of the sanctity of marriage would have escaped the notice of the Torah-true public. The resulting outcry provided the impetus to force this matter to come before Rav Dovid Feinstein for adjudication and hopefully this this horrible chapter in the history of Klal Yisroel can come to an honorable closure. May the Brochios of Yosef Hatzadik who quashed his Yetzer Rah in order to preserve his kedushah, rain upon the heads of Rabbis Eidensohn.
ReplyDeleteWhat's in store for Aron Friedman at this point? Unfortunately, this cannot be a good thing for him. The game is now back to square one, this time with enormous pressure placed upon him to deliver a get forthwith. His legitimate complaints will drowned out by the shouts of the K's minions placing the onus of the shameful affair upon him for refusing to give a get upon demand, I can readily anticipate the accusations, that will go somewhat like this: "You see what kind of Chilul Hashed you made? You see what your stubbornness in not acquiescing to Rabbi K's demand made him do? it's all your fault!".
IMHO, it is incumbent upon all to offer support to Aron Friedman in his quest to bring this matter before the Baltimore Bais Din, as is his right. To do otherwise, to allow pressure to be applied against Mr. Friedman to compel him to issue a get, would bring about a situation where יהיה חוטא נשכר , that the sinner will profit from his misdeed.
Furthermore, lest we provide for the above a new paradigm for gittin will emerge. Whenever a woman desiring to free herself from an unwanted marriage, but refusing to to bring the matter before Bais Din, the following tactic might be employed: An unscrupulous Rabbi will issue a bogus hetter similar to that promulgated by Rabbi K Jr. and then pressure can applied to force the husband to give the get in order to rescue Klal Yisroel from the threat of Mamzayrus.
A long term solution should be sought whereby a dissolution of a marriage via employment of Kiddushay Taus should be deemed unacceptable IN ANY EVENT, even a case that perfectly matches the profile of the case dealt with by Rav Moshe Feinstein Zt"l. The ruling of Rav Feinstein may have been correct, but as we have seen the professional judgement of the Rabbis of our generation is so poor that the concept of Kedushay Taus can be easily misapplied. The situation is so fraught with peril that it is akin to providing a loaded pistol to a four year old child.
In what manner the above Takanah can be accepted by all or whether there could be an alternative is a matter for future discussion. However one thing is clear, this type of case cannot ever be allowed to come up again.
Such an update warrants a letter from Shmuel Kaminetsky himself and not from his son. He needs to publicly admit his error so others dont do the same afterwards.This is a cowardly act .He wants to preserve his own honor instead of preserving "Kovod Shomayim". This is not becoming of a "godol" . Therefore I call upon the Aguda to distance themselves from him.
ReplyDeleteTeshuva does not mean there are no consequences. Thieves must still pay the multiples required even if they do teshuva. As we saw in perek 7 of Yehoshua, he implored Achan ben Carmi to confess yet Achan was still executed. What consequences will the Kaminetzskys pay? I think we will soon see.
ReplyDeleteCan someone post a literal translation please? I have shown the letter to two different people who each read it differently. One said it was a reluctant acceptance of Reb Dovid's decision.
ReplyDeleteWell, I guess Sholom Kaminetsky can now get back to his day job; conspiring with Shlomo Gottesman to steal Mosdos like Aish Hatorah, Bnos Bais Yaakov and the seminaries.
ReplyDeleteGreat job, Rabbis Eidensohn
עלו והצליחו
It is time for TE to step forward and arrange for visitation rights to AFs daughter which are acceptable to both parties. At that time AF has indicated that he will give a get to the fake agunah.
ReplyDeleteLooks like the feminist supporters won’t budge that Aaron gives a get and apologizes for the long delay and Aaron won’t budge until Tamar goes back to the beis din and settles the custody matter. Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer says “As I have said from the beginning, I was skeptical as to the heter's validity, but that the cruelty perpetrated by AF on TE was wrong. That has not changed.” To Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer Aaron is a רשע. How absurd !! That word applies to himself, not to Aaron. I quote the Shulchan Aruch Eben Ha’ezer on disqualified witnesses ל"ד:
ReplyDeleteב'
איזהו רשע, כל שעבר עבירה שחייבים עליה מלקות; ואצ"ל אם חייבים עליה מיתת ב"ד. ל"ש אם עבר לתיאבון, ל"ש אם עבר להכעיס. הגה: עבר עבירה שאין בה מלקות, פסול מדרבנן.
Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer supported:
(internet 2012):
“Supporters of Tamar Epstein, whose ex-husband, Aharon Friedman, refuses to give her a religious divorce, have been pressuring Friedman's boss, U.S. Rep. Dave Camp, R-Michigan, to fire Friedman. They have protested in front of Camp's office, signed a petition at change.org, started a website (freetamar.org) and in February, bombarded Camp's official congressional Facebook page. But Susan Aranoff, director of Agunah International, which supports Jewish women seeking divorces, said social media has little effect because many husbands still are resistant after all the bullets have been fired."
Right. Damage control.
ReplyDeleteSomehow in the need to save face you have managed to write a comment longer than a couple of lines. Bravo.
Nothing but pithy and condescending comments have come from you.
But all along you were unsure of the heter validity.
Well you sure didn't get that across. Rather you continue to lambaste AF when the the larger issue here is that a woman is an adulteress of the highest order, a woman who used her rabbinical connections to push forward with a severely damaging heter that will cause untold damage to the basic fabric of marriage in the frum community, and of course the kedusha of klal Yisroel.
Yet in your willful ignorance of the facts of this particular case you forge ahead in blaming AF for this sad Parsha. When he has the backing of BBD? Whom bravely publicly acknowledged their mistakes, in a showing of tremendous kiddush Hashem.
If TE played by the rules, accepted that she won't get her away, followed halachic protocol and didn't cause the ruckus that she did, this would have been like any normal divorce proceeding. Hurt feeling broken dreams, but ultimately making decisions that would be the best for all parties.
Go back and check. Rabbi Roth et al intimated that all gittin ever executed by RNG should be disqualified. That was a horrible thing to suggest.
ReplyDeleteI have addressed every one of the points made by my esteemed interlocutors in the past. I see no need to repeat myself.
ReplyDeleteThat is not the public's business.
ReplyDeleteAh, Boruch mechayeh hamaisim! Your appearance here indicates the monumental importance of this point in current events!
ReplyDeleteBnos Bais Yaakov?
ReplyDeleteYou seem to be part of the problem. ....
ReplyDelete......Also, your *anavah* reminds me that of Rav Zechariah ben Avkulus which Chazal in Mesechta Gittin say was cause of destruction of the Bais HaMikdosh in the episode of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza.....
The only rabbis here who deserve a Ya'asher Koach are Rav Dovid and Rav Daniel Eidensohn.
ReplyDeleteWho's Ahron friedman, who cares about a personal fight between a couple, the names everyone needs to be talking about it Shmuel and Sholom Kaminetsky
ReplyDeleteWe ask them to resign from any Torah leadership positions they hold
They have proven to us that they lack halachik judgement, and have the chutzpah to act alone, bot of which are toxic
RESIGN
It will be a long time before any rav who cares one bit about his reputation will issue such a heter again. No one wants to be in RNG's shoes at this point.
ReplyDeleteyou are making a really big mistake.
ReplyDeleteIt won't be long before rabbis are issuing this heter like hotcakes - because they can be confident there will be no publicity. Rav Dovid's psak - and the way he issued it was primarily to salvage Rav Kaminetsky's reputation which the publicity has severely damaged. RNG can simple claim it is a machlokes haposkim.
Without publicity there is no transparency. Rabbis will do anything they can get away with.
I thought everyone (all players in this issue) agreed in advance to accept Rav Dovid's psak whatever it is.
ReplyDeleteAnytime anyone sins in public it is the public's business to see corrective action and/or repentance is taken. If the sinner sinned in a public manner, as occurred in this case.
ReplyDeleteNot really , wishful thinking , if they really wanted to know what REF thought, they could have readily asked them before the fact not having to be dragged there nearly a year after the fact . Chances are they thought he would never get involved and therefore claimed they would go and accept his ruling . as far as Shaloam claiming he was never Martir no one ever said he was but that he was involved up to his eyeballs which the fact that he received psak is very telling, since he acted as plaintiff in this dinTorah and therefore the ruling was handed them to him not to TE. the fact that they didn't separate as soon as so many reputable rabbis came out against it is damning they cannot claim innocently that they thought it was okay even if it was a question they should've separated just in case . Hey there a Freudian slip , do I read R shmuel said" we "should go and accept whatever he says ?? please send regards to reb salty K, we really would love to hear from him now
ReplyDeleteWhat in the world would RSK, or anyone, want to steal, or even to be given Aish HaTorah? I'm serious, I really would like to know your thinking here.
ReplyDeleteI believe only going forward, and he's correct on that
ReplyDeleteIf the past pattern continues, The Kamenetskys will act removed from the entire saga - and dump it on RNG. After all, they only talked, he was the actual Mesader Kiddushin.
ReplyDeleteIt is possible to forgive the impulses that they had to steamroll AF because he did not buckle to them.
It is possible to forgive the impulses they had to create a wishful diagnosis on AF to design the facts for a Mekach Toas.
However, it is not possible to forgive their continuous calculated Shkarim, like the מעולם לא התרתי nonsense, or the RNG is a Bar Samcha script (he knows what he is doing) when YOU YOURSELF set him up with Sheker information.
They caused Aishes Ish.
They are responsible for any Mamzeros.
For that, they should either publicly acknowledge and beg forgiveness - or disappear from the Oilum Hatorah.
Reb PI:
ReplyDeleteIf only my Ruach Hakodesh worked so well and I knew what would end up being monumental....
What's true is my WANTING and HOPING that this should be a first step of what will BS"D end up to be a monumental tikkun.
Sort of like how the Gemara Megilla יב: ע"פ רש"י ד"ה פסוק זה says in explaining why the מלאכים mentioned the זכות הקרבנות so that אחשורוש should kill ושתי
In any case .. nice hearing from you :)
All players? Says who?
ReplyDeleteI don't believe AF or TE agreed. Nor do I believe RNG agreed.
Before beginning to heap kudos upon Rabbi K Jr. for accepting the ruling of Rav Dovid, one ought to peruse this letter with great care. Nowhere is there any evidence of contrition of the part of Rabbi K. Jr., neither for his part in bringing about the Michshoil of Aishes Ish, nor about the lies that he spread about Aron Friedman stating that he is a " שוטה במלוא מובן המילה " .
ReplyDeleteFor that matter, neither has Rabbi K. Sr. expressed any regret in his involvement in the affair by giving tacit approval to his son's misdeeds, nor any apology to Aron Friedman for issuing a bogus seiruv against him, knowing full well that the Baltimore Bais Din was the appropriate venue at the time.
Nor can Rabbi K Sr. avoid responsibility for his part in the seiruv by claiming he was merely acquiescing to the will of the Bais Din by joining them in what he thought was a meritorious action. That Bais Din was not a sitting Bais Din, but rather an ad hoc committee established by Rabbi K himself for the express purpose of issuing the seiruv against Aron Friedman.
A final query of Rav Daniel Eidensohn: you write:
"All they need is to pay a therapist to declare their husband to have an incurable personality problem i.e., to certify they don't like them and that they can do better with another husband."
Why would they even need to consult a therapist? Why wouldn't the wife's declaration and any Rabbi's opinion not suffice? According to the Talmud, In the case of clear physical defect (unknown to the wife at the time of Kiddushin and where she exited the marriage immediately upon discovery) that was so egregious in nature that it invalidates the Kiddushin, no expert opinion need be involved. Of what consequence is the opinion of a "professional"? Why would any "certification" be necessary?
Maybe yes, but it probably indicates that this avenue of undoing halacha has been blocked. ..
ReplyDeleteMaybe you are right, but. ... Aharon Friedman's situation is probably better, probably more politically correct......this time being a good thing. ..
ReplyDelete"It is time to for the get to be given" - Mr. Bechhofer presents his feminist magic cure for all divorce disputes. The cure of course being that the allegedly "cruel" father must give his wife whatever she's demanding, in this case a GET.
ReplyDeleteNever mind the interrupted Bais Din process. Never mind removing the court orders obtained in violation of halacha. Never mind the father's halachic rights to have his daughter live near him. Never mind the daughter's right to have her father nearby. Never mind the severe damage to the father's reputation. Never mind the wife living with a boy-friend. Never mind the wife's need for a GET from her boyfriend. Never mind any mamzer that might be born.
You also seem to have stooped to have stopped using logic and and just giving rootless and routeless 'p'sakim',ummm....paskunyakim......
ReplyDeleteHappy Purim
With an apology from Bechhofer to boot.....
ReplyDeleteC'mon Mr. ,he meant frocks and shtenders should roll!.....
ReplyDeleteThat's why it's so important not to let this go by the wayside
ReplyDeleteThis is not beginning of the end rather it's the end of the beginning
The next step is to destroy the Kaminetskys and remove them from any leadership positions
RNG, is a nobody and will always be a nobody
"V'yad kol ha'am ba'achronah......uviartoh ho'ra mikirbechoh"
ReplyDelete.....also as I was thinking all along, to ch"v, if needed, put information in the mamzer registry. ....
Well, what an auspicious day, just when the daf yomi is discussing Kiddushei Taus, in Maseches Kiddushin. And lo and behold, the gemara mentions quite a few cases that might qualify. The gamara there is talking about an eved, but easy to infer about marriage. It says that an internal mum might qualify, except that by an eved, he would not care, because he acquires him for the work (but by marriage would qualify). An external mum, he would see, so doesn't qualify. Then the gemara mentions, what if he has bad traits like a thief or kidnapper. The gemara answers that most avadim behave that way. One can infer that in a marriage, it would be unacceptable, and a kiddushei taus. The gemara then asks what about an armed robber or someone with a government sentence upon him. The gemara answers that these would be public, and he would have known.
ReplyDeleteSo, if a person really did have a personality defect, it might well qualify, as well. That is why quite a few have been done in our times. However, each case is a judgment call. I know nothing about Aharon, but there is no reason not to trust the judgment of the Kaminetskys. If they want to accept Reb Dovid's opinion, that is fine. But they are baalei samcha to issue their own psak, along with Reb Nota.
Troubling about your sentiments are that
ReplyDelete1) we do not find that he has to begin with, ordered them to separate, as others have already complained, so even if we presume that they did so now, these past 42 or so, alone, are of tremendous issur as each day spent in such scenario is of magnanimous issur in itself.
2)also as others complained, did he criticize the relevant pritzah perpetrators? .......................... .................. .............................................................................................
You want the p'sak to be the greatest criticism? Problem is: he himself (as I was given to understand) forbade any criticism of them. ..... ??
ReplyDeleteGirls high school in Far Rockaway. The Dean - Shmuel Hiller was indicted on fraud charges and the K's tired to force him out even though it was Hiller who basically built and maintained the school for the last 30 years. Under him the school quadrupled in size and even created a high school...
ReplyDeleteHe didn't say: disqualified, he said: not relied upon ......big difference. ...they aren't rash and irresponsible as to blindly disqualify (as some would do with Rabbi Abraham zt"l, or l'havdil bein chayim l'Chayim, Rav Gestetner. ...you know, the letter from your beloved "Rabbanut"), but these "fanatics" are more accountable than those "civilized" ones....
ReplyDelete"Let me state first that I was aware of RHS's and RMW's opposition to
ReplyDeletethe heter, which is only one of the reasons I myself have not and do not
endorse the heter." - YGB, two months ago, comment at http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamar-epsteins-heter-invitation-to.html
Sholom K, along with other unsavories, such as Gottesman, has been scheming to take over Aish Hatorah for several years.
ReplyDeleteA lot of filthy dealing, all under the aegis of RSK.
Ask Gershon Spiegel- he's to'en for the other side. Lots of blackmail, threats, letters issued by Sholom in the name of his father etc.
As to WHY they would do this- follow the money my friend.
Aish Hatorah has a multimillion dollar yearly cash flow, and buildings worth tens of millions of dollars.
That is in addition to the drug called power that Sholom is addicted to.
The way he is destroying his father, I think Avsholom would be a more appropriate name for him.
Is it his job to hang up signs too ? To throw papers all over the streets ? To run around with a megaphone ? He paskened. He doesn't have to do more. I would have accepted his Psak even if he said she was never married. Who told you when he paskened ? Who told you he didn't say they have to separate (it's kinda obvious, that if she's married to AF, she needs to separate)?? You don't know what he said, to who, and/or when he said it!! You just hate the צדיקים. You find fault in the biggest of our generation. For shame!!!
ReplyDeleteארורים כל הרשעים ברוכים כל הצדיקים. תאלמנה שפתי שקר הדוברות על צדיק עתק בגאוה ובוז
They are not acceptable baalei samcha when they are negaiah b'dova and certainly not when they present slanted evidence. Why do you think this whole mess happened? The Kaminetskys now HAD to accept Reb Dovid's psak because they were the ones who asked the shaila as a result of their deceit. The difference this time is Reb Dovid KNEW better than Reb Nota not to accept Shalom Kaminetzsky at his word.
ReplyDeleteYet you feel the need to repeat the canard that AF perpetuated "cruelty".
ReplyDeleteQuite a stretch your making from a theoretical discussion lechumra in the gemara about mekach taus by eved to infer practical mekach taus after years of marriage. Where is this brought in shulchan aruch? What happened over centuries of psak?
ReplyDeleteAnd what was SK and Gottesman's involvement there?
ReplyDeleteBarry, you obviously didn't finish or understand the Gemara. The whole idea of the Gemara is that Mekach Taus only applies before the Nesuin (Chupah), but after the Nesuin (Chupah) there is no such thing. Therefore the Gemara reasons that wife can only eat Trumah after the Chupah, so that there should be no risk of Mekach Taus..
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah says:
ReplyDelete“It won't be long before rabbis are issuing this heter like hotcakes - because they can be confident there will be no publicity. Rav Dovid's psak - and the way he issued it was primarily to salvage Rav Kaminetsky's reputation which the publicity has severely damaged. RNG can simple claim it is a machlokes haposkim. Without publicity there is no transparency. Rabbis will do anything they can get away with.”
I agree with Daas Torah, but only in galut, but not in Israel.
The nj.com account of testimony at Mendel Epstein et al trial:
“However, the Brooklyn man, Menachem Teitelbaum indirectly linked the rabbi to the incident when he said he heard one of his attackers mention the words "Epstein" and "father." Testifying to a jury of eight men and eight women before U.S. District Judge Freda Wolfson in Trenton, Teitelbaum said he had been asleep in his Brooklyn basement apartment for nearly an hour after returning from his job at a local grocery store when he was awakened by a man who punched him in the face. At different times during the attack, two or three men were on top of him, trying to tie his arms and legs. One of the men pushed his head through the wall of his bedroom, Teitelbaum said. He said that when he screamed for help, one of the men stuffed dirty socks into his mouth. When he wasn't screaming, he could hear other men beating his roommate, Usher Chaimowitz, who had been asleep in the other bed in the room, and ordering him to grant his wife a Jewish religious divorce, known as a get, he told Assistant U.S. Attorney Sarah Wolfe. He said the attackers knocked loose four of his teeth. When he asked why they were beating him, he said, one of his attackers told him, "Woe is the villain; woe is his neighbor." "They were calling out all the time 'give a get. Give a divorce to your wife,'" Teitelbaum testified through Hebrew interpreter Ruth Kohn. He said he knew a woman was in the room because while he was on the bedroom floor, he saw legs with women's stockings and shoes. And one of the attackers yelled Teitelbaum to be stopped from screaming because "she can't hear," Teitelbaum said.”
We need Rav Dovid to state who is the רשע here.
"But they are baalei samcha to issue their own p'sak, along with Reb Nota."
ReplyDeleteAnd are you a bar samcha to decide *who* IS a bar samcha????
Of course they should roll, as they did in the days of Yona in Ninveh...
ReplyDelete{ו} וַיִּגַּע הַדָּבָר אֶל מֶלֶך נִינְוֵה וַיָּקָם מִכִּסְאוֹ וַיַּעֲבֵר אַדַּרְתּוֹ מֵעָלָיו וַיְכַס שַׂק וַיֵּשֶׁב עַל הָאֵפֶר: ... {ח} וְיִתְכַּסּוּ שַׂקִּים הָאָדָם וְהַבְּהֵמָה וְיִקְרְאוּ אֶל אֱלֹקִים בְּחָזְקָה וְיָשֻׁבוּ אִישׁ מִדַּרְכּוֹ הָרָעָה וּמִן הֶחָמָס אֲשֶׁר בְּכַפֵּיהֶם: {ט} מִי יוֹדֵעַ יָשׁוּב וְנִחַם הָאֱלֹקִים וְשָׁב
מֵחֲרוֹן אַפּוֹ וְלֹא נֹאבֵד: {י} וַיַּרְא הָאֱלֹקִים אֶת מַעֲשֵׂיהֶם כִּי שָׁבוּ מִדַּרְכָּם הָרָעָה וַיִּנָּחֶם הָאֱלֹקִים עַל הָרָעָה אֲשֶׁר דִּבֶּר לַעֲשׂוֹת לָהֶם וְלֹא עָשָׂה:
תענית טז. - אם יש זקן והוא חכם אומר זקן והוא חכם ואם לאו אומר חכם ואם לאו אומר אדם של צורה אחינו לא שק ותענית גורמים אלא תשובה ומעשים טובים גורמים שכן מצינו באנשי נינוה שלא נאמר בהם וירא האלהים את שקם ואת תעניתם אלא {יונה ג-י} וירא האלהים את מעשיהם כי שבו מדרכם הרעה
מאן מלכי, רבנן ... ועליהם לשוב ולקיים ויעבר אדרתו
כי לא יחפוץ במות המת כי אם בשובו..
Please elaborate how I'm a part of the problem. ...
ReplyDelete... And your "incorrect"ness reminds me of ...
Excellent points. According to RNG's own words, there's no such thing as a hidden psak. Calling it worthless doesn't reveal which part or parts have no integrity, nor does it imply whether such maneuver of mekach taus is altogether legit had it been done differently.
ReplyDelete"Mamzer issue", is she a lil bit preg? Is the handwriting in this letter RSK jr.'s, looks kind of feminine and dfifferent than his previous letters. It does not name who the Baalei Dovor might or might not include. This informing to the B'Dovor implies that he RSK jr/sr *Gave* the psak to TE. *(6)* RNG's part and roll has no validity based on worthless bitul Kidushin/Sidur Kidushin leaving nothing to any sort of trust. I do not understand how the Tokef of RDF's intermediate time out BD has a role in Halacha when BBD has jurisdiction. There is no clarity of the immediate step to be taken for departing and for Get or for which happens first. In order to halt from recurring, there must be more transparency. I thought of sharing my thoughts with the bloggers here.
Time will tell.
ReplyDeleteYou have a huge axe to grind with the Kamenetzkys, which you keep swinging all over the place. Were you thrown out of Philadelphia Yeshiva?
ReplyDelete60-something years of writing gittin? A nobody.
ReplyDeleteHave you ever bothered to hear the Kams side of the story? Or is all your information about them coming from this blog? What I wrote is a summary of what they have consistently claimed all along.
ReplyDeleteThey had an interest in helping this woman find a heter. They shopped around until they found a rav who was willing to actually be matir. Many rabbanim don't want to get involved in this because they don't want to rely on Rav Moshe for this. Only someone who is willing to rely on Rav Moshe is a candidate for this. so they needed to shop around to find someone.
Is it beyond reason to help a MO agunah to find a rav, any reliable rav, that's wiling to be matir her? Do not rabanim send a woman with a difficult shayla in Niddah to a rav who is known to be very lenient, because of a mesorah that he has? And kal vachomer when the shoel is MO? The Ks and many others consider RNG a reliable, if lenient, posek, good enough for TE.
Of course Rav Sholom was heavily involved in the shopping and in presenting the best case for this heter. So? He was helping a woman he considered to be in a difficult situation.
After Rav aharon Feldman and so many rabanim actively opposed it, the Ks were still not convinced that the heter was worthless. First of all, RNG himself did not and still has not retracted. Secondly, they were never the matirim. Thirdly, since RNG had still not retracted, TE would probably not listen to them to be poresh. Fourth, they themselves were skeptical about the motives of some of the osrim and those behind the campaign.
Rav Shmuel never knew too much about the details of the heter, since he anyways was not the matir. He relied on what his son told him, enough to tell him that he and TE can rely on RNG.
However, after hearing that reliable rabbanim held that the heter had no validity, Rav Shmuel said to go to RDF, as only someone like him can give credence to such a heter, being a son of his father and respectful of RNG.
On this point Rav Shmuel has been consistent. He trusted that his son and RNG did a good job, and when he began to suspect that they didn't he saif he wants someone neutral to review it. The heter has always been a mistake, and Rav Shmuel has no need to resign from the Moetzes. Kind of anti-climactic, but that's the story.
Vayaavor Adar to mai'olov - that's it, take off the frock if it cannot be cleaned! ...
ReplyDeleteUntil such a time as RSKx2 state unequivocally that TE must separate immediately from her adultery with her boyfriend; Nathan of Gaza is quite correct.
ReplyDeleteThis wasn't a get.
ReplyDeleteYeah, pretty much
ReplyDeleteYeah, but who cares, I got them good
ReplyDeleteI hear Walt Disney is looking for new writers
ReplyDeleteThey also must add that offspring will be mamzeirim.
ReplyDeleteIt has to be read with the article on Matzav. Add to it "It will be sweet for those who listen." Oh, dear R. Shalom, it is just a optional sweetness?
ReplyDeleteCan we get confirmation that Rav Kaminetzky shlit"a has ordered
ReplyDeleteLOL
Oh, did he regain his trustworthiness overnight? If we've seen him lie, in writing, can he be trusted here? Especially when he makes it sound as if listening is optional - will add sweetness.
Oh, so your mind is made up? How sweet.
ReplyDeleteThose I've shown Mr. Kaminetzsky's letter from Matzav read it as obfuscating whatever it was Rav Dovid told him to do. He's like a child who is told not to take "a cookie" by his mother so he takes "two cookies".
ReplyDeleteWhich might make your judgement as skewed as that of a rosh yeshiva currying favor with a major supporter by finding his daughter a heter.
ReplyDeleteWhile I am pretty much on board with the concerns of this fiasco, can you or anybody kindly enlighten me what this letter falls short of? I mean , what more do you want?
ReplyDeleteI disagree with your analysis. It was a matter of probablity. It is rare after kiddushin for mekach taus, but they still worried it could happen, so they forbid terumah, according to one deah, while the other holds that the problem is she might serve to her family, so they made her wait. But doesn't mean no mekach taus possible after nissuin, only that most people are bodek a kos before they drink. Therefore unlikely to be a problem for terumah, and no reason to be gozer further.
ReplyDeleteWhat is interesting is that gemara assumes that one can't check out or know their spouse during eirusin, because they don't see her in real life situations. That is why they said that when she goes to the new household (masar), even before nisuin, they start the checking process. In the time of the gemara, one could possibly argue that they should have checked each other out during that time. But in our days, when there is no gap between kiddushin and nesuin, there is a much stronger tayna for a spouse to say, I really didn't know such and such about my spouse, and I had no way to find out.
What is also noteworthy is that according to Tosfos, kubiustus refers to a gambler, not a kidnapper. That is also a potential flaw in a mekach. So personality flaws or bad behaviors do qualify, as well.
TY
ReplyDeleteMy judgement is skewed towards the Kaminetzskys from my father's connection with the family, I have no axe to grind but I am disgusted at the way they have denigrated Reb Yaakov's legacy. There is NO excuse to use sheker, chazav, chachash, etc. as they did to "curry favor" with a major supporter by finding a "heter" for her to bring sanctioned adultery into Klal Yisrael.
ReplyDeleteYeah, they have a show called Once Upon A Time. The only problem is GA's scenario is more unbelievable than even their fairy tales.
ReplyDeleteOriginally, when I saw the letter posted on this sight, I did see it positively.
ReplyDeleteHowever, three things have become clear since then.
1) She is not seceding from her znus.
1B) She and her boel reside in Philadelphia. Obviously, they are not afraid of being viewed as horrible baalei aveirah in the Town of Brotherly Love.
2B) If Rav Feivel Cohen writes clearly that she is married to Aron Friedman, but concludes with ולהשומעים יונעם ... that is nice. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ajYvOFmNjec/Vpy1t1PTRKI/AAAAAAAAUqI/Oq0EyGuhuCA/s640/Rav%2BFeivel%2BCohen%2Bagainst%2Bheter2crop.jpg Rav Cohen makes the tough truth very clear, but seeks to soften the blow. When Shalom K. finishes off his letter with this, he is clearly stating that following RDF's psak is optional, but nice.
Here is what Shalom Kamenetzky failed to do:
A) He failed to make it clear that Tamar Epstein is currently married to Aron Friedman.
B) He failed to make it clear that any children that she may have from some other boel are clearly a mamzer.
C) He failed to own up to his actions. He pretends to throw off all responsibility from himself.
Questions: If he would make it clear that Tamar and her boel are unquestionably committing adultery, would she be able to withstand the pressure and separate? Additionally, have we seen R Shalom play games with his letters and be dishonest? If so, why should we assume that in addition to relaying RDF's psak, he also winked at them to do as they wish?
Barry could you please site any commentaries that have your understanding? Better yet what rabbinic teshuva dealing with Mekach Ta'us are based on your understand of the gemora?
ReplyDelete1- Half-baked confessions are caused by 1 of 2 reasons: insincerity and humiliation (or a blend of the 2). Insincerity is pretty obvious, but humiliation is because it’s too embarrassing to publicly own up that you’re at fault for a huge scandal. How can one know if a half-baked confession is sincere or not?
ReplyDelete2- A more immediate point than RDF publishing his Psak is what was the follow-up from וכבר מסרתי פסק הב"ד לבעל הדבר. Did Tamar Friedman comply? Where is she???
(If she hasn’t made any move, that does call the confessor’s sincerity into question—this would answer my question #1.)
3- Why will RDF withholding his written Psak allow troublemakers to be mattir eishes ish again? Why isn’t the outcry of the Rabbonim and this blog and the cancellation of RShmK’s invitation to England and the near physical attack against RShoK and the new letter from BBD enough deterrent for the future?
4- Leaving the situation a מחלוקת הפוסקים is worse for Mrs. Friedman than having it resolved that she is an אשת איש. If she’s an אשת איש and has a ממזר ודאי, the ממזר ודאי can marry a שפחה and later be מגייר the children. But a ספק ממזר is אסור בישראל ובשפחה.
The RSK's admitted the hafkaot Kidushin has no validity, TE remains an eishes ish. Why doesn't he urge the baal tshuva and his sotah to depart and have a BD execute a Get in accordance with Halacha. It is not enough just to relay the Psak of RDF conditionally that it will be sweet if they listen. Maybe a better choice would be if they don't listen, "Moro tihye achrischem" like in drinking the Mayim hameorrerim. Furthermore, where is ORA ... in all this? If RHS disagreed with this fiasco Heter, why don't they demonstrate, "TE is NOT FREE like they did when introducing the False HETRER, indeed she is a SOTAH". We need to hear from BBD as a cause for action without initiation of R'Aron F, RS Miller and all partners of the Coalition from the THEATER of OPERATIONS. After the world RA'ASH that has been raised on behalf of this Fiasco, why let it die down without any clarity of resolution. The people have contributed to keep it on the front burner, and deserve to be informed of the current status. Klall Yisroel has a great interest in that a married woman should not have the ability to wake up one morning and demand a divorce for reasons that she dreamt she can do better while having ORA's Pied Piper coming in support with an Army of Terrorists hijacking the Husbands life, toil and children just because they can. She will think twice before buying a false affidavit from a psychiatrist that he suffers from all kinds of invented "Kol mako asher lo ksuvo baTorah", ve"chol machlo asher lo samti bemitzrayim" R'L'. Let her go home and give it her best shot to make a go of what she has been bashert without hikdiach betavshilo. Acting like a machsheifo and then screaming foul will not cut it. Who says the second time around she can do better? Let this be the proof that she cannot. What's waiting now for her down the line with all this snowballed baggage? G-d only knows. Posssibly even a Kol Mekadesh shvi'i. Whatever she cooked up, she will shovel it up. Asher zudik, aleihem.
ReplyDeleteA resolution must also be passed by the Gedolim for the Goons of ORA for them being Avizerayhu deGilui Arayos enabling and paving the way for Sotah's 'listos'. They actually have blood on their hands in the kidnappings of children and total destruction of Botim BeYisroel, and since this is a Profit Organization as they advertise raising revenue in cafe D'Flatbush, it is beGonev ish umchoro as their din is mefuresh in the Torah, vekol hakodem zocho. They shall not parade around as a Robinhood or a Pied piper with his Bullyhorn bullying around anymore. His true colors have been displayed le'einei kol hakohol, and no one should take part in such a bloody venture to be machzik yedei ovrei aveiro. Let his new shul throw him out in the cold, veyad kol ho'om beachronah, velo yezidun od.
I don't share your familiarity in Goyishe shows. What I'm more familiar with is the halacha that says that Jews are obligated to judge righteous Jews, and especially talmidei cachamim, lchaf zechus, even if that means thinking of improbable justifications for their actions. If I'm able to explain how this terrible corruption of halacha came about while fulfilling my obligation of DLZ, I shall continue to do so, despite your ridicule. "Al yisbayish bifnei hamaligim"
ReplyDeletethe fact is that a wide range of rabbonim have clearly said that the halacha is wrong. Furthermore there has been universal condemnation from high level rabbonim but no acknowledgement of error or measures made to prevent this from happening again.
ReplyDeletei am trying to separate the issue of TE's heter from the charachter assassination of the players involved.
ReplyDeleteI'm with you on the halacha aspect 100%. This heter never had any validity.
My only question is, why insist that all the talmidei chachamim involved were negligent and corrupt, when in fact there is some justification for their actions (although not for the heter)?
Rabbis who are presented as gedolim should be expected to address critical problems and provide leadership.
ReplyDeleteAt a minimum level - the failure to deal with these questions is a source of concern and the basis for critcism. Regarding the issue of negligent and corruption - there is ample evidence that that is what has happened. You don't like the conclusion of the evidence but that doesn't make it less true.
Because you stand up for the culprits, thereby clouding the issues for others whoa think that what you are saying may be *correct*, thus misguiding them, or at least giving them leeway to errors, when all the time you be joining us and condemning this pirtzah!
ReplyDeleteImprobable justifications? Fanciful is more like it. Where does it say you are supposed to fabricate that which you know nothing about?
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that in a situation of Chilul HaShem one does not give honor to the rav? Because, honoring the rav, in such an instance, would be an impediment to Kovod Shomayim, since in this particular instance, it is the rav who who is going against Kovod Shomayim, honoring the rav would be contrary to honoring HaShem. ....no, the concepts are inseparable, one kovod violates the other. ...
ReplyDeleteI'm assuming you're were a little tipsy when you wrote this , and I wonder why since the story of Purim too was very unclimactic. basically there was some goy who said he would kill all the Jews and then he died . end of story. If you dig a little deeper actually there are a lot of correlations haman really didn't do anything on his own he actually shopped around and finally someone saw his point of view, both the king and Haman always make sure that they had a plausible denial . And it really wasn't any reason for mordechai to warn the Jews not to eat from the Kings party since they were acting a little MO anyhow, you know mixing the modern with the traditional noone was going to listen to him anyhow, and after all there are different opinions and levels of observance there is no reason to rock the boat . and even Haman know that the Heter to kill was a mistake all along he never really wanted it if only Mordechai would've submitted to him and give him what he wanted lock stock and barrel this would never have come to be , and when even his wife knew he was going right over the cliff he didn't not give in till it was over.
ReplyDeleteAnd now a reality check, let's put aside for a moment the greatest crime , how many scandals went on in this saga which not get sufficiently discussed simply because there was a greater scandal to be dealt with . For example the fact that RSK Senior signed on a document a ksav serum with a BD which had no jurisdiction on the matter , with whom he never sat with , and never ever issued any summons . Basically our Jewish BD system is as weak as it can get here you have a so-called Goddell who's making a total Mockery out of Halacha further weakening the system . Having no respect or concern no sense of responsibility for the future of Din Torah.
hiring goons to beat up AF , I know you tell me they weren't involved or why weren't they involved in trying to make peace we never heard anything of that sort needed you can ever claim it in any of your incarnations it was my way with a highway as vindictive as it gets in the sole goal was we will win will we will show you .
spreading rumors that he is crazy fooling an old man to believe so how long will you keep on with this hogwash that this is RMF opinion .?
I can go on and on, it is very climactic the K's lost, on two fronts one by the scholars the educated and intelligent , who realize what he tried to do and then by the masses who the fine details might be lost on them but they realize that at the very least the K family is unreliable disingenuous vindictive and very lowbrow stop at anything what gets in way of of their agenda , it might not be that evident just because it takes time for sad reality to sink in
You might want to familiarize yourself with Halacha see YD 334 , a perfect world both K's junior and senior would have to leave all their public positions yeshiva Moatzus and all ,midin talmid chochom shesarach,on the flipside it would be absolute silence no talk whatsoever to preservethe respect for Torah. What is happening here is people as such as yourself who insist on giving absolute total respect unconditionally and then you have people trying to tear him down .. As far as halacha is concerned the very first step would be both of them retiring never to be heard from again .and yes no maachos either. Not some silly silly Philly boys putting out a letter in support . By the way coming to think of it I think they'll be a great time to reissue that monumental letter now that you claim it's all over and the signatories have claimed that they were told it would only be put out after the K retracted , seems to me like someone has lost their appetite.
ReplyDeleteJustification for which actions? Undermining the Baltimore Bais Din? Feeding Rav Greenblatt false information they knew would yield a "heter" from him? What possible justification was there to distort the Torah? Why didn't Shalom Kaminetzsky and his father either tell T. Epstein to return to the Baltimore Bais Din or wash their hands of her and let her do as she pleased without their help?
ReplyDeleteActions are justified ? Which ones hiring the goons ? Falsifying letters character assassination ? Never mind mussar middos or Halacha Are you aware what in the real world howa secular court would deal with this? Do you realize that AF would be able to sue both case and even the yeshiva since the letters were written on the yeshiva letterhead for all their worth and more, hiring goons would cost him some hard time too. probably not the senior due to his age .you see Epstein got a few years for the same crime never laid his hands on anyone. they would subpoena every last shred of evidence and the whole entire story would be out all the world to see . you people owe a lot of thanks to AF we all do ,how embarrassing would that be .if I were you I would stop whining, you haven't seen nothing yet , and clean this act up before AF loses his patience.
ReplyDeleteThere was a rumor out before the beis din started that the Kaminetzkys had claimed that the boel had agreed to abide by their psak. Either the rumor was wrong, or a lie was told. Neither option is unlikely...
ReplyDelete1) I know a lot more than you think I know. I'm repeating the version of the Kamenetzkys. Did you ever bother to hear their side of the story?
ReplyDelete2) Where does it say you are supposed to fabricate that which you know nothing about? See Rambam on Avos 1:6
Who hired goons? Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky? Rav Sholom? Rav Nota?
ReplyDeleteWho falsified letters? Evidence, my friend, evidence.
Undermining the Baltimore Bais Din - Shalom claims the BBD lost jurisdiction at some point (I'm not sure why).
ReplyDeleteFeeding Rav Greenblatt false information they knew would yield a "heter" from him - Even if true, only implicates Rav Sholom, not Rav Shmuel.
I condemn this pirtza as much as you do.
ReplyDeleteI do not stand up for the culprits. I'm doing what the halacha says to do, which is to judge others' actions favorably. There I'm not clouding the issue of the heter. I'm separating the issue of the heter from the issue of burying certain people.
If anything, it's because of people like you, who have clouded the issue, by linking fighting the heter with bashing the Kamenetzkys, that it took so long to destroy this heter, as many were afraid to appear as if they agree with the Kamenetzky-bashers.
R Shmuel signed on to a ksav seruv with a BD w/o never sent harmonies and even if they did never had jurisdiction on the case so AF had no obligation to respond and RSK knew it!!!.shalom was advising TE and Company on every step of the way it's highly implausible he did not know and was not consulted on whether to hire a epstein and company.
ReplyDeletemy point is if this ever got to the secular courts where they have the power subpoena each and every phone call each and every email will come to light and he may very probably sit. he owes AF a great amount of hakaras hatov. Not many people would have the fortitude to keep silent , And there are quite a few rabbis would allow him to go to court .
I would love to respond, but I have trouble extracting one coherent sentence from your run-on diatribe.
ReplyDeleteWhere did Reb Shalom, or anyone for that matter, ever claim that the BBD lost jurisdiction? I've never seen anyone, even from Tamar's side, advance such a claim.
ReplyDeleteA public Chilul HaShem demands a protest in public, called macha'ah. Making cheshbonos for not doing so is contrary to halacha, aside that giving them kovod is hampering the milchomoh on behalf of Kovod Shomayim (see also Rabbeinu Yonah regarding the madrigal in sheker or chanifah. Kindly also see Rav Sternbuch's letter complaining why not enough people were protesting (obviously, for being concerned for kovod of individuals with prominent positions rather than the Torah.) ...
ReplyDeleteShalom wrote that his father concurred.
ReplyDeleteI would like to point something out to you. Dan l'kaf z'chus does NOT always mean giving the benefit of the doubt in a positive manner. As I read in Ethics from Sinai by Irving Bunim, zt'l, when someone who has established himself as crooked does something positive, he is also judged in accordance to his merit, in other words we must be suspicious that his actions and motives are crooked. Shalom Kaminetzsky established that he is conniver who tricked a naive old man into empowering a selfish young woman to commit adultery. Dan L'kaf Z'chus in this instance demands we assume the worst of him until he demonstrates otherwise. The only favorable judgement that can be extended to his father at this time is that he is a father blinded by paternal love who cannot see how his son has brought immorality into Klal Yisrael.
I'm repeating the version of the Kamenetzkys.
ReplyDeleteTherefore? Does their "new and improved" version make any sense? Does it justify their actions? More importantly, does it justify their inaction? Are these bullies allowing a couple to publicly sin in their own City of Brotherly Love?
If they truly accepted Rav Dovid's psak, 1) they would clearly state that she is married to Aron Friedman.
2) They would clearly state that her offspring from the boel are mamzeirim.
3) Have they ever sought to right the wrongs they committed against Aron Friedman?
4) Have they ever sought to right the wrongs that they committed against the institution of Beis Din (through making their hocus pocus Beis Din to issue siruvim)?
5) Particularly, have they sought to right the wrongs that they committed against the Baltimore Beis Din?
----
As to your claim that Rav Shmuel knew very little about the heter, why did he seek to stop everyone from protesting against it? More so, why did write to Rav Weiss that he does know all the details? Oops. You do not defend something you know little about.
I agree with you that he has no need to resign from the Moetzes, as long as he admits that the is a human being who made a human mistake. As long as seeks to truly rectify his actions.
Please. Now that surly knows that Tmar is committing adultery with his brocha and assistance, why does he not issue siruvim against her to secede from her adultery? Are bogus siruvim only for those he wants to hurt?
Any rabbi with any self dignity or respect for his position would not support someone who hires goons,not only from a legal stand point is it illegal but from a Halacha stand point it is deplorable since according to most Poskim it causes momzeirus besides being ossur . In the secular world being a mob lawyer is not respectable despite the fact that we all agree everyone is entitled to legal representation. think about it what what would his father and grandfather have done, oh have they fallen .
ReplyDeleteWhat is so unclear? I understood it....?
ReplyDelete1) I've heard their side of the story and I've seen that it is nonsense compared to Aharon Friedman's side.
ReplyDelete2) I've looked through the Rambam and I don't see anywhere your claim there is justification to fabricate that which you know nothing about. Please point it out here > http://sixteenthstreetsynagogue.org/classes_files/maimonidean/rambamavot0106.pdf < by page and paragraph so we can all see it.
BTW, I think you are mixing up components of the last two paragraphs.
אבל אם היה ידוע איש שהוא צדיק ומפורסם במעשי הטוב ונראה לו
ReplyDeleteמעשה שכל תכונותיו יורו על היותו מעשה רע ואין להכריע בו שהוא מעשה טוב אלא בדחוק רב מאד ובאפשרות רחוקה צריך לפרש אותו כטוב הואיל ויש צד אפשרות להיותו טוב ואין מותר לחושדו וע"ז יאמרו כל החושד כשרים לוקה בגופו.
(according to Rav Kapach's translation)
"Shalom wrote that his father concurred."
ReplyDeleteEven if you assume that letter is authentic, are you going to implicate the father on testimony of his son who you "established that he is conniver" and "who tricked a naive old man"? Perhaps he tricked two old men? (Rav Shmuel is older than Rav Nota.)
"Shalom Kaminetzsky established that he is conniver who tricked a naive old man into empowering a selfish young woman to commit adultery. Dan L'kaf Z'chus in this instance demands we assume the worst of him until he demonstrates otherwise."
Basically what you're saying is, if I see a frum Jew sitting in MacDonalds eating a burger, I don't have to dan him lchaf zechus (and say that perhaps he had an ulcer), because he already established himself as an ochel nevelos utrefus. That is wrong. According to this circular logic, there's never an obligation to be dan lkaf zchus, for as soon as he is seen apparently transgressing he established himself as a sinner.
So not "hired goons", but "supported people whi hired goons". TE has an adviser called Garfein, who is the more likely one to have advised her to hire goons. Shalom has far less experience in the wily world of gittin.
ReplyDeleteYou understood it before you wrote it, too. So why did you write it?
ReplyDeleteI have contacts in the Kamenetzky camp who presented to me their side of the story.
ReplyDeleteTE has an adviser called Garfein
ReplyDeleteGoldfein. True. We do see that R. Shalom nicely followed all that this Mr. Goldfein advised. Remember, the kiddushei taus scheme was only done after Mendel Epstein was arrested. It was concocted by Goldfein, but R. Shalom played his part "excellently."
What he wrote is very clear.
ReplyDeleteThat last example of yours is utterly stupid.
ReplyDeleteYou're the one who keeps using circular reasoning. You keep looking making up fanciful scenarios for things that have already been confirmed many times. Are you just Salty using another name?
Or should I say Professor Wagstaff because you're singing his same old song?
So now we have a new plea similar to the plea of insanity , the plea of simplicity , . Sorry I know Shaloam he is as Willy as they get, and so does anyone who knows him and I'm sure you know him too. He his problem is not lack of knowledge but lack of fear of heaven .
ReplyDeleteYes I don't have any proof yet that he actually hired them but one thing is clear he's been supportive of this combative way of dealing with a divorce from the beginning which in the long run has been very detrimental to all parties involved. with no solution in sight it would behoove him to change direction and try to pull things together so we don't have a legacy, the kamenetzky mamzer. I think it's high time for his friends and family, instead of using their energy to cover-up and support him rather to knock some sense into him at this point since they will all be blackend by this terrible outcome.
Really not getting this , if RS K was not invited to one of the aguda conventions or some other major get together or meeting which concerns all of American jewery I am sure he would be very insulted and all the silly silly silly philly boys would get together and and demand and write big signs standing up for RSK. the logic being that what pertains to American jewelry is his business and not inviting him is a slap in the face basically cutting them out or something which pertains to him Unlike some other private great scholar Which never gets involved in public matters. so why is it that when his own son does something and in his own name, it suddenly doesn't pertain to him?? Is he only a public figure for the klieg lights and camera ?
ReplyDeleteWhen, however, a person is known to be righteous, and is renowned for his good deeds, but one nevertheless saw him perform a deed that looks wicked from all vantage points, and could be interpreted as a good deed only with great difficulty and in a farfetched manner, one is obligated to interpret it
ReplyDeletepositively, since there is the possibility of doing so. It is forbidden to suspect him, and in this regard our Sages said, “A person who suspects the worthy will be punished.”
There is not a word there that says you make are to make up, ie. fabricate anything. You can assume there may be a very unlikely explanation but it is not up to you to create it. Also it says מעשה רע, not מעשים רע. In regards to what was done to Aharon Friedman and another incident I know of, the misdeeds are multiple. The benefit of the doubt was extended to the Kaminetzkys quite a lot. But once the line was crossed by Tamar Epstein using the "heter" they obtained for her, there was no longer any room to interpret their actions in a positive way.
RHS kibel m'tshuvos R' Akiva Eiger ( :->) umsoroh l'RSK, vRSK l'ME, u'ME l'GOON SQUAD, v'GOON SQUAD kibel kritzas sfosayim m'em kol chatos linshok oviha R' Aron, veorav lo vekam olov beitsuma shel Tisha b'Av vehiku berosho koshos veachzoriyos, uborchu lenafshom. Bo Gurfein veshilem 50,000 $hekel kessef over lesocher maskirtam mi$holem, miSholem tartei mashma. Vehineh kol hatorah kula al regel achas. So now you know the hierarchy of the trickle down chain reaction. As for experience, mi she'eino baki betiv... lo yehe esek imohem. He did anyway, so now he is where he is. All Gurfein did was acting as the Shulchoni, and it's not fein at all. The criminal activity came from the baal dovor who is also the ba'al hasimcha of this FIASCO. So there you have it, the proof is in the pudding.
ReplyDeleteWell, that's pretty absurd. You said your not sure why anyone would claim the BBD lost jurisdiction, but it makes no sense and I don't think anyone could give a legitimate reason for such a claim.
ReplyDeleteNot that what his son does doesn't pertain to him, but that he trusts his son too much and believes that he is as straight and ehrlich as he thinks he is.
ReplyDeleteThere are quite a few historical examples of influential fathers naively trusting sons with tragic consequences.
I apologize if you got hurt from some anonymous person (albeit great in anava) insulting your intelligence by referring to circular logic. But the definition of circular logic means proving that something is true from the fact that it is true, and this is something I specifically noticed in your confirming that there is no need to dan Shalom lkaf zchus because he did something wrong, when you haven't even considered his version of the facts which represent that he did not. That is a classic example of circular logic: I can't accept that he didn't do anything wrong because I already established that he did.
ReplyDeleteYou're an idiot because you say idiotic things. Because you're an idiot it makes what you say idiotic. How's that for circular logic.
ReplyDeleteThe first time a righteous person does something that appears extremely wrong, then there is an obligation to give him extraordinary benefit of the doubt. But when he does it repeatedly, as the Kaminetzskys have to Aharon Friedman, that obligation is gone.
I don't have to make up anything. All I have to do is have the will to listen to their own version of the events, and then say "it's possible he's lying, but since he was always bchezkas a ehrliche Jew I must assume his version which says that he acted in good faith."
ReplyDeleteYou claim "Benefit of the doubt was extended to the Kaminetzkys quite a lot." Which means you sat in your living room and said "How could they do such a thing when it's clear they're taking the wrong side? It must be that ...[fill in the blanks]"
But you haven't extended to them the possibility that they have a story which you haven't heard, and that their version of the story is correct. What I presented above you dismiss as Walt Disney material. You seem to know one side of the story very well, but ask anyone involved in dinei Torah and they will tell you: there are two sides to every story, and what may seem to you as an open-shut is actually quite complex. If you are really, sincerely willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, why don't you contact them and hear them out?
Especially since Rabbi Klavan and Rabbi Winter, zt'l, affirmed that the BBD had sole jurisdiction.
ReplyDeleteAs far as the outcome of Rav Dovid's psak, maybe they did take care of telling TE that she must separate; they just didn't announce it on the internet to satiate your lusts.
ReplyDeleteAs far as their actions vis-avis AF and the BBD, that is a separate issue which Rav Dovid never dealt with and which the Ks still maintain they were right.
As to your question why Rav Shmuel tried to stop EVERYONE from protesting against the heter - I have yet to see evidence to this claim. bBut what is clear is that in the beginning he believed that the protesters were people with a vendetta against his son, and he believed that his son acted in good faith and RNG is a bar samcha, even if other poskim disagree with him. He did not write to Rav Weiss that he does know all the details. He wrote that there are details that are unknown to the public. Again that doesn't mean that he knew them. It means that these details were known to those involved in the heter (which does or doesn't include himself).
When you see a righteous person eating once in a treife restaurant, you must judge him favorably (he has an ulcer). If you see he does it a number of times then you assume he's a rasha, although he could still have an ulcer. Halacha L-Asher Kaufman misinai..
ReplyDeleteAs far as the outcome of Rav Dovid's psak, maybe they did take care of telling TE that she must separate; they just didn't announce it on the internet to satiate your lusts.
ReplyDeleteDid they ensure that it happens? Are bullying tactics only reserved for those whom they don't like?
As far as their actions vis-avis AF and the BBD, that is a separate issue which Rav Dovid never dealt with and which the Ks still maintain they were right.
Why didn't they ask? More so, once they realized what they did, how could they not seek to understand how Hashem did not protect them from this most horrible blunder? Why wouldn't they seek to understand what brought them into this terrible situation?
פירוש הרא''ש נדרים לב.
מפני מה נענש אברהם אבינו ע״ה ונשתעבדו בניו כוי. אע״פ שעבירת העונש מפורשת על אומרו במה אדע מ״מ עבירה זו הענישתו להיות נופל בבמה אדע
As to your question why Rav Shmuel tried to stop EVERYONE from protesting against the heter - I have yet to see evidence to this claim. bBut what is clear is that in the beginning he believed that the protesters were people with a vendetta against his son,
Was his son's claim that Reb Shmuel agreed to the heter a lie? Why didn't anyone show him that letter?
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-la2Z45o9B3A/VlzHF_tQ8iI/AAAAAAAAT_g/sxJvwrhv0_U/s640/kaminetsky%2B2crop.jpg
ולכן כדאי ונכון להתיר העלובה הזאת..... מותרת היא להנשא מטעם דין קידושי טעות
כל זה נכתב על ידי שלו' קמינצקי, והראתי את הדברים לאאמו''ר ...שליטא, ואישר אותי לחתום על הדברים, שאכן, כנים הם
"It is therefore worthwhile and proper to be matir this woman.... she is free to marry due to the din of kidushei tous.
"All this was written by [Rabbi] Sholom Kaminetzky, and I showed this to my father, and he permitted me to sign on this [heter], that indeed, they are true."
He tried to stop whomever he felt he may be able to stop. Let's not play games with the word EVERYONE. K? What's the reason he tried to stop whomever he could?.
Again that doesn't mean that he knew them. It means that these details were known to those involved in the heter (which does or doesn't include himself).
It clearly included himself.
As to your last question: seruvim are necessary for someone who is not in compliance with a BD, if it will convince him to come to the BD. In the case of TE, whose family regularly consults with him on other matters, the smart way to deal with her complying with the issur is not be issuing seruvim against her, but by patiently convincing her to do so.
I understand. Some people were just created more equal than others.
Let's clarify: 1) They still maintain that their bullying tactics against Aron Friedman were correct.
2) They have not bothered to justify their false siruv and dismissal of the BB"D nor to ask Rav Dovid Feinstein - despite the fact that they recently discussed this case with him at length.
3) Bullying tactics are only reserved for people whom they don't like. They will not use it to stop public adultery, if it involves someone they like.
Ah, because it was that clear to the point that I am SOOOO unclear why one would have difficulty understanding it......, yeh....
ReplyDeleteIf we can agree that it pertains to him at the point that he felt that the question should be re-examined, obviously he was open to the possibility that she might be in a adulterous relationship so he was not that naïve . Now at that point the least he could've done was ask them to separate on the chance , And now that the ruling came down that yes Sholam facilitated adultery , where is he ? He should be doing all he can to separate them to avoid a legacy of a kamenetzky mamzer. Rumor has it that they are still together , where are the Philly boys when we need them they should be banding together to solve this one for the party, Instead of hiding or Pushing silly cover-up theories.
ReplyDeleteOh Great Repository of Humus, thank you so much for acknowledgement that I was at Sinai. Funny, where were you? Was your ulcer acting up?
ReplyDeleteBTW, I have never heard McDonald's burgers were a treatment for ulcers. In which medical comic book did you read that?
The greatest anav of all time (no relation) certainly was at Sinai, though you probably couldn't see him because he was at the top of the mountain...
ReplyDeleteBTW I confess to not being so knowledgeable in ulcers, but it was my understanding that an empty stomach can cause an ulcer to become fatal. This was not intended as a psak, but as an example to prove a point.
How do you know what they have done?
ReplyDelete1) After the tumul started, the Kamenetzkys turned to Rav Dovid, who did not want to get involved at the time, but he said that RNG is a bar samcha. Later they complied with Rav Dovid's BD.
I believe that up until RDF agreed to sit on it, even if Rav Shmuel thought there might be validity to the osrim's position, he quite plausibly did not believe he was capable of getting TE to separate misafek.
2) As for now, after RDF paskened, I have no doubt that they are taking care of the mess now, but not in the spotlight, which doesn't mean they will be successful in convincing her or the boel, but at least they are doing their best.
The only point with that example is on the top of your head.
ReplyDeleteRather oversimplified. One might wonder why they haven't approached RDFfirst if they respect his opinion it should've been the first and last opinion no need to shop around . it was not when the tummel started ,it was when the pressure became too intense to resist ,just to be fair . The tummel started well over a year ago if he had any doubts he could've solved it then. As for working it out now, yugata umatzasa taamin time will tell I'll believe it when I see it. Both father and son were involved in too much hanky-panky for people to accept some innocent alibi for their actions, sorry.
ReplyDeleteTo be precise, the tumel started immediately after Sukkos of this year, when Rav Aharon Feldman challenged Reb Shalom about it. I don't know of any tumel from over a year ago. Until the actual marriage in Memphis, no one was aware who the matir was and what the basis for the heter was. All anyone knew was that ORA declared her "free".
ReplyDeleteAs to why they didn't approach RDF first, perhaps they did (they almosr certainly did if they were shopping) and he was not willing to accept upon himself such a heter. That doesn't mean that he didn't approve of them asking someone else who was willing to take it upon himself.
I'll let you enjoy the Humus (hope it doesn't disturb your ulcer).
ReplyDeleteShouldn't it be Rav Nota attempting to seperate Tamar from her live-in friend, rather than Rav Shmuel or Rav Shalom or Rav Dovid? Rav Nota likely would have the most influence with her and him, considering they are together on the basis of his heter, not a heter from Rav Kaminetzky.
ReplyDeleteEnjoy your McDonald's Big Mac with cheese. What brocha did you make on it, Rofeh Cholim or Matir Issurim?
ReplyDeleteTo be precise, the tumel started immediately after Sukkos of this year, when Rav Aharon Feldman challenged Reb Shalom about it.
ReplyDeleteHmm. What was this all about, way before Sukkos? http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bQF-XZQ4aTw/VkSUoIYXwGI/AAAAAAAATv8/oW7BDCShZhs/s1600/Sholom%2BKaminetsky%2527s%2Bdenial.%2Bcroppedjpg.jpg
As well as the letter from Rav Sriel Rosenberg, the Baltimore Beis Din which Rav Aron Feldman undersigned.
As to why they didn't approach RDF first, perhaps they did (they almosr certainly did if they were shopping) and he was not willing to accept upon himself such a heter.
Is the Torah some sort of game?! How dare you play games with the Dvar Hashem. If Rav Dovid paskened that he cannot be matir, then obviously Hashem's will was that this adultery should not happen. Unbelievable! And these are the goons that feel that torah (lowercase intentional) should go through them??
That all depends on whether Rabbi Greenblatt is willing to acknowledge he was played for a fool.
ReplyDeleteEspecially if he contended that the basis of his heter was based on what their 'Da'as Torah' told him, now that they declared that they accept Rav Dovid's p'sak, it is Da'as Torah (for real) that he must retract and declare that they separate...
ReplyDeleteThank goodness I don't have an ulcer. Do you have one that you self-treat with McDonald's burgers? That would explain a lot about your ridiculous posts.
ReplyDeleteThe letter from Rav Shmuel and the letter from Bnei Brak were written in the summer, after TE got engaged to Fleischer. The BBD and RA Feldman, after learning from this that "Tamar is Free" meant business, and was not just a tactic to get AF to comply, were racking their brains to figure out who is the matir, and what is ther heter based on.
ReplyDeleteSo they arranged two things, first a letter from the BD of Bnei Brak that a heter that has no BD behind it has no validity, and two they approached Rav Shmuel, who was considered the mentor of the Epsteins, and who was rumored to have been the matir (as evident from the declaration), to challenge him about gthe validity of the heter. Rav Shmuel pre-empted them by telling them that he has no knowledge of any heter, and that he was not matir.
At that point, there was no room for any outcry because you can't fight a heter that has no face attached to it. And if TE was committing unsanctioned adultery, unfortunately there' snot much to do about that.
Only after the marriage, which was officiated by RNG, did it become clear who the matir was, at which point RAF asked RNG what the heter was based on. It took until after Sukkos for RAF to clarify that the heter was extensively flawed did he start his tumul.
This post actually makes sense.
ReplyDeleteWho are you and what happened the GA who posted before?
Shouldn't it be Rav Nota attempting to seperate Tamar from her live-in friend, rather than Rav Shmuel or Rav Shalom
ReplyDeleteNo!
1) Tamar never heard of RNG prior to RSK Jr. introducing him to her, after Jr. got RNG to rubber-stamp his "heter."
2) RSK and Mr. Goldfein introduced Tamar to the silly idea of "nullifying" her marriage. RNG did not introduce her to this idea. Those who introduced her to this idea are responsible to undo their damage.
3) She began her adultery only with the assurance and well-wishes of the Kaminetzkys. The rubber-stamping shopping spree was of little interest to her. It was the shoppers who brought her home this adultery that mattered - and still matters! - to her.
Thank you for the compliment.
ReplyDeleteWho am I?
My anava doesn't allow me to reveal myself, lest anyone divine how brilliant, insightful, and articulate I am. But I do occasionally make some foolish blunders just in case someone does figure out who I am they won't think I'm that brilliant. :) :)
Oy. The first one is back.
ReplyDeleteSeeing this comment brings me to be 'mayvin' that you belong to the "Psayim"....your comments are a blend of kana'us and apikurses...
ReplyDeleteHaving thought through you r self-righteous comments for months, especially in the light of how things have unfolded with your 'gedolim', it is evident (hopefully to also many who haven't notice 2 months ago, today is May 13, '16) that these comments are a blend of kana'us and apikurses, very religious.....and very seemingly Torah and Jewish. ...but some other Torah, HaShem Yishmerenu. ...
ReplyDeleteRegarding anti vwxxers https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1744005/hagaon-harav-shmuel-kamenetsky-condemns-anti-vaxxers-who-made-colossal-chillul-hashem-in-albany-last-week.html
ReplyDeleteIn this post , it is written " Without the criticism of those who produced the heter and without the
ReplyDeleteretraction of Rav Greenblatt - the heter now becomes simply a dispute
between poskim and Tamar obviously will chose Rav Greenblatt."
Is that to be taken literally or is it sarcasm?
If it is a machloket poskim, does that mean both sides have validity?
Has anyone said that the posek responsible is now a worthless nobody? Or is his psak still valid?
Does / did the BD (need to) hear both sides in such a case?
ReplyDeleteno copy of psak by Rav Feinstein?
ReplyDeleteAnd also they still give support to Rav Greenblatt
and none of these BDs have met both sides, so under ordinary circumstances, the descisions are not valid.
Rav Shmuel simply said he would accept the ruling of Rav Feinstein as to the validity of the heter
ReplyDeleteit was never an adversial situation and therefore no need to meet both sides
Rav Nota didn't meet both sides, I don't know if Rav Shmuel did either.
ReplyDeleteThey not only didn't meet both sides but Rav Nota didn't investigate but insisted on accepting whatever Rav Shmuel told him
ReplyDeletein addition both got involved while the case was active with a beis din that did in fact did talk to both
We have recently been discussing the requirement for a bd to meet both sides.
ReplyDeleteSo unless they bring reasons why not, their psak is questionable
I Am not siding with any of these characters.
so what beis din are you talking about?
ReplyDeleteBaltimore beis din met both sides
neither Rav Shmuel or Rav Nota are a beis din?
The Feinstein beis din was just dealing with the validity of the heter as understood by Rav Shmuel
So why do you think this is relevant?
Firstly, we need to distinguish between a beit din and a posek . My understanding, based on rambam hil Sanhedrin is that a bd of 1 is not desirable, unless he is accepted by everyone, and that gives a poseq a kind of bd standing.
ReplyDeleteSo my assumption was that there was a bd involving RSK /NG. They apparently did not hear both sides.
That latter bd, you say, did not require both to hear sides.
So you were mistaken !
ReplyDeleteIndeed .
ReplyDeleteDoes a posek fall under the category of bd in this respect?
no
ReplyDeleteso what is the basis /authority of a posek , as separate from a BD? i.e. what is the source ? (sorry , trying to figure out how they fit in outside of the BD)
ReplyDeletea posek is an expert who offers an opinioned
ReplyDeletea beis din is a court that creates an obligation to be obeyed
It is similar to going to a lawyer to get an opinion vsr going to a court
According to that definition. A psak from teshuvos is not binding.
ReplyDeleteno it isn't
ReplyDeleteso why do "you" [rabbis in general] make statments based on teshuvos as being binding?
ReplyDeletePerhaps the listener never asked the question or would ask it from someone else in a different way.
a tshuva is an opinion
ReplyDeletemost question are what is appropriate to do
again it is not the same as a ruling of beis din
Some opinions are more authoratative than others
A medical view expressed by a 10 year old is not taken as seriously as one from a doctor
nor is freely given advice viewed the same as one costing $1000
Likewise an answer given by R Riskin is not taken the same as a printed tshuva or something found stated in Shulchan Aeuch
All this is elementary !
Elementary or not, it's different to what I've heard. Heard - but not read, in other words I have not seen this written in major sefarim - just means I haven't read the right sefarim or missed it when I did.
ReplyDeleteThank you, the clarification is very helpful.
a further angle on this question -
ReplyDeletein Hil Sanhedrin ch 20, 8, Rambams says:
"A judge who begins comparing a
judgment that is brought before him to a judgment that was already
rendered with which he was familiar is considered as wicked and haughty
when rendering judgment if there is a scholar in his city who is wiser
than him and he fails to consult him. Our Sages comment: "May evil upon
evil befall him." For these and similar concepts stem from haughtiness
which leads to the perversion of justice.
Proverbs 7:26: "She
cast down many corpses" refers to a student who has not reached the
level where he can deliver rulings, but does so. Awesome are all she has
slain" Ibid. refers to a scholar who has reached the level where he can deliver rulings, but does not do so.
The latter denunciation applies provided his generation requires his
services. If, however, he knows that there is another scholar capable of
rendering decisions, and therefore he refrains from doing so, he is
praiseworthy. Whenever a person refrains from becoming involved in a
judgment, he removes the responsibility for antagonism, theft, and false
oaths from himself. A person who is haughty in rendering judgment is
foolish, wicked, and arrogant.ח
כָּל
דַּיָּן שֶׁבָּא לְפָנָיו דִּין וְהִתְחִיל לְדַמּוֹתוֹ בְּדִין פָּסוּק
שֶׁכְּבָר יָדַע אוֹתוֹ וְיֵשׁ בַּמְּדִינָה גָּדוֹל מִמֶּנּוּ בְּחָכְמָה
וְאֵינוֹ הוֹלֵךְ וְנִמְלָךְ בּוֹ הֲרֵי זֶה בִּכְלַל הָרְשָׁעִים
שֶׁלִּבָּם גַּס בְּהוֹרָאָה. וְאָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים רָעָה עַל רָעָה תָּבוֹא
לוֹ שֶׁכָּל הַדְּבָרִים וְכַיּוֹצֵא בָּהֶן מִגַּסּוּת הָרוּחַ הֵן
הַמְּבִיאוֹת לִידֵי עִוּוּת הַדִּין. (משלי ז כו) "כִּי רַבִּים חֲלָלִים הִפִּילָה" זֶה תַּלְמִיד שֶׁלֹּא הִגִּיעַ לְהוֹרָאָה וּמוֹרֶה. (משלי ז כו)
"וַעֲצֻמִים כָּל הֲרֻגֶיהָ" זֶה שֶׁהִגִּיעַ לְהוֹרָאָה וְאֵינוֹ מוֹרֶה.
וְהוּא שֶׁיִּהְיֶה הַדּוֹר צָרִיךְ לוֹ. אֲבָל אִם יָדַע שֶׁיֵּשׁ לְשָׁם
רָאוּי לְהוֹרָאָה וּמָנַע עַצְמוֹ מִן הַהוֹרָאָה הֲרֵי זֶה מְשֻׁבָּח.
וְכָל הַמּוֹנֵעַ עַצְמוֹ מִן הַדִּין מוֹנֵעַ מִמֶּנּוּ אֵיבָה וְגֵזֶל
וּשְׁבוּעַת שָׁוְא וְהַגַּס לִבּוֹ בְּהוֹרָאָה שׁוֹטֶה רָשָׁע וְגַס
רוּחַ
If comparing to previous cases is wrong, what is the process of precedent in teshuvas and halachic decision making? And what about tziruf? Or making an analogy to derive a judgement or rule in new case?
blind comparison is the problem - not all cases are repetitions of previous cases
ReplyDeletecases are typically made anonymous with only the important details revealed and precedent can be established by the rules made by an important posek - see introduction to igros Moshe
cases are different becasue people are different too.
ReplyDeleteIs an orphan who has to support a widow in the same position as a rich kid, who has no financial worries? But usually, Hareidi rabbis would favour the rich kid because of the huge money he can bring to the party.
Wow a truly unbiased observation!
ReplyDeleteIf you follow through your logic, it shows that there is no such thing as daas Torah - which is not even a psak, but a binding statement of opinion based on authority, often not even presented with sources.
ReplyDeleteIn the days before Oslo, one rav criticised a daas Torah statement regarding land for peace _ because it did not bring sources but only The personage of the gadol making the statement.
It doesn't mean no daas Torah only there is no one you would accept as binding
ReplyDelete