Wednesday, March 9, 2016

Child Abuse Allegations Plague the Hasidic Community

Update :Added Interview with Newsweek editor

Update: Comment by anonymous frum insider 

There are as many irritants in the article as in the few comments thus far.  There is a way to deal with it, and much progress has been made.  To deny that is to lie.  There’s much more to go.  However, the Newsweek and other media reports are certainly not useful.  They accomplish nothing more than the fanatic “advocates” did – chilul Hashem, destroying lives, and nothing more.  The basis for these media reports is greatly flawed.  Their primary sources are the several who have escaped the frum community, and are engaged in the mission of creating as much destruction as possible.  These detestable creatures have long abandoned their victimhood, and have enlisted with the enemies of Klal Yisroel.  I have lost my ability to have any rachmonus on them.  If they want to help, then join the campaigns to bring about greater awareness, prevention programs, school and institutional policies that accomplish something.  The media stuff is miyus, as it has no role whatsoever in protecting a single child.

Meanwhile, a simple observation.  We are both familiar with defense mechanisms.  I make observations all the time of new mechanisms that are just that, but masquerade as something else.  The Agudah position, which we know to be fundamentally flawed, is not really a policy at all.  It is a simple effort to cover-up the cover-ups.  They cannot do different, because that would be self-incrimination.


update: added this interview with Newsweek edit



Newsweek    [...] While there is no evidence that child abuse is any more likely to occur in ultra-Orthodox schools than in public or secular institutions, stories like Reizes’s—an alleged abuser sheltered and victims unwilling to talk for fear of losing the only way of life they know—are common in the Hasidic school system. The many former students, advocates, sociologists, social workers and survivors interviewed by Newsweek, along with recordings, documents, public filings and personal emails that Newsweek obtained, place the blame on a confluence of factors: widespread sexual repression, a strong resistance to the secular world, and, most important, a power structure designed to keep people from speaking up about abuse. [...]

In the ultra-Orthodox world, sexuality is simultaneously denied and monitored to the point of obsession. Starting in childhood, boys and girls are separated; the opposite gender remains a mystery until it’s time to marry, usually in an arranged pairing. Boys are taught to avoid looking at girls, while girls are taught that they are a source of sex and transgression, say former members of the Haredi, or ultra-Orthodox Jewish, community.

If children aren’t taught by their parents and teachers about appropriate sexual behavior, they have no way to sense when touching turns into something that is wrong. “You don’t even know what your body is,” says Lynn Davidman, a professor of sociology and religious studies at the University of Kansas who grew up in a religious Jewish family. “And you are not supposed to touch or know, and then all of a sudden you are introduced to forbidden knowledge in a most abusive way.” The abused have no way to make sense of what’s going on, to stop it or to tell anybody about it. [...]

“I think there is little doubt that the extent and seriousness of abuse in society at large was underappreciated for decades until relatively recently,” says Rabbi Avi Shafran, director of public affairs for Agudath Israel of America, an umbrella organization that provides leadership to Haredi communities. “Unfortunately, the Orthodox community was likewise unaware of the degree and severity of the problem in its own midst. That, though, has changed.”[...]

Today, in North American Haredi communities, there is debate over how the mesirah prohibition should be applied. In 2011, the Crown Heights Beis Din (the rabbinical court that handles internal religious disputes) ruled that mesirah “do[es] not apply in cases where there is evidence of abuse” and that “one is forbidden to remain silent in such situations.” And earlier this year, 107 Hasidic rabbis signed a kol koreh, or “public pronouncement,” stating that there is a religious obligation to notify secular law enforcement when it knows of child abuse.

However, “knowing” is a murky term here. In 2012, Rabbi Chaim Dovid Zwiebel, executive vice president of Agudath Israel of America, said mesirah meant community members should turn to rabbinical authorities to “ascertain that the suspicion meets a certain threshold of credibility” before reporting child abuse to the authorities. Scroll through the comments section of any of the muckraking websites that track abuses in the Haredi world—Unorthodox-Jew, FailedMessiah.com—and it quickly becomes clear how deferential this community is to religious authority. At the bottom of news coverage of sexual abuse trials are seething comments claiming the reporters are acting above their pay grade. “Stop speaking loshon harah and chillul Hashem ”—evil speech and the desecration of God’s name—“and let the Rabbis sort it out,” they have written.

The problem, though, is that this puts the decision to report on individuals who are usually not qualified to recognize signs of abuse—and who, many say, have a vested interest in keeping secular eyes away. Furthermore, while New York state law says all school officials are required to disclose any child abuse, physical or sexual, they see or hear about to Child Protective Services—religious clergy are not. And when school officials are also religious officials—all yeshiva teachers are rabbis—there are dangerous legal loopholes. [...]

72 comments:

  1. With all the talk of abuse in the orthodox/Hassidic communities, the facts are otherwise.

    1. The percentages of arrests, and jailed are much less than secular society.

    2. The number of sexual offenders are much less than secular society.

    3. Even though there is a big stigma against mesirah, the frum community is/has learned pretty quickly that predators should be reported to the police.

    4. Sexual repression as youngsters, is actually very good, compared to the alternative. We miss out on the amazing fun of date rape, teenage pregnancies, abortions, broken hearts, suicides. All these rates are severely lower in "frum" society.

    5. With that said we can never under report or minimize our problems. We can never sweep them under the rug. We must speak openly about them, and work on eradicating sexual crimes from our midst. We also should have open discussions with our children, at the appropriate age about sex. We should definitely be open and warn our children about anyone touching or molesting them from a very young age, and be on top of our children's whereabouts.

    הוי אומרים לרע טוב ולטוב רע

    ReplyDelete
  2. Please can the blogpost be updated to include this paragraph of the original article. This is a very important point.

    "For almost a decade, Assemblywoman Margaret Markey, from Queens, has been trying to pass a bill that would eliminate the statute of limitations on both criminal and civil cases of sex crimes against children. But she has faced fierce opposition from two political powerhouses: the New York State Catholic Conference and Agudath Israel of America."

    Here is further evidence to this effect.

    http://www.vosizneias.com/30462/2009/04/21/new-york-joint-statement-from-agudath-israel-and-torah-umesorah%E2%80%8F-regarding-statutes-of-limitations-for-civil-claims/

    http://www.survivorsforjustice.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=153%3Aagudah-acknowledges-conflict-over-summer-camp-but-also-opposes-child-victim-act&catid=2%3Anews&Itemid=57

    ReplyDelete
  3. 1. Please can you provide statistics to back up this claim.

    2. Please can you provide statistics to back up this claim.

    Even if you were able to produce such statistics (I doubt you can anyway), there are many factors that could deter those inside the Jewish community from reporting abuse. As an example, Manny Waks and his family have suffered years of abuse, shunning, threats. Then there's the witness intimidation, the list goes on.

    3. It is certainly not accepted by everyone in "frum" circles that abuse should be reported to the police: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yok9h5WzElE

    4. "Sexual repression as youngsters, is actually very good". Again, you have no statistics to back up this claim.

    5. In Australia, the situation is very far from the fairy tale you describe. That is only one example.

    I think you need an urgent dose of reality!

    ReplyDelete
  4. 4. "Sexual repression as youngsters, is actually very good". Again, you have no statistics to back up this claim.

    Do you have any sort of statistics to the contrary? This silly article made that claim - a claim that is false - without sighting any statistics. How comes you are not bothered by the actual article?

    Additionally, every intellectually honest person realizes that Frum family life is the envy of everyone. Yes, elevating our minds over dirty thoughts and attitudes is certainly part of the reason for that.

    Interestingly, lets not forget the horrible article praising Jimmy Savile's pedophilia as being good for the kids. Newsweek was nowhere to be found to criticize that article.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Do you have any evidence that there is a problem of sexual abuse in the orthodox/Hassidic community ? I don't know about Australia, in the USA, sexual offenders have to register, and their pictures are put out there. There are apps that show all sexual offenders. I have looked for Hassidic offenders in frum communities. There are very very few.

    The dose of reality necessary, is by everyone. I am not here to cover up anything. On the contrary, I want to expose and get rid of all child abuse, and all sexual exploitation and abuse. I also don't want to make up false stories about a community.

    I don't have any proof that the murder rate among Orthodox Jews, is less than among orher communities either. Crime statistics based on race and religion aren't released in the USA. However, the jails in the US aren't full of Hassidic men who committed murder. I challenge you to name me 5 orthodox/Hassidic people who are in jail for murder in the USA, in the last 20 years. It's a similar disparity with all sexual crimes.

    There is a problem with transparency. There are undoubtedly people suffering silently, and not wanting to come forward, and even worse some who have come forward, and been quieted. There are those rabbis among us who are "old school" and want everything swept under the rug. However, there is JCW, mindsets are changing, and I assume many if not most orthodox parents would go to the police if there was a case of abuse. We must still work on getting better at reporting abuse, and putting video cameras in all yeshivas and Shuls. Even one case of abuse is horrible.

    Truth be told, even JCW, has only a handful of abuse cases. Compared to the number of Orthodox Jews, it shows of a very well behaved, disciplined, and non violent, non abusive, community.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Child abuse in schools can be reduced by taking some simple steps. These steps will be uncomfortable, but the benefits outweigh the losses.

    (1) Teachers are outfitted with GoPro or similar cameras that can be worn unobtrusively.

    (2) Teachers are required to carry a recording device, such as pen and paper, where they note any time they are isolated with a child. For example, if a child returns to class alone while other students are still at recess, this would be noted.

    (3) Students are trained from an early age to never be alone with a teacher.

    (4) A school ombudsman is appointed to accept reports from students. Students are trained from an early age to report to the ombudsman any time they have been alone with a teacher.

    Just making these rules would help because they would discourage pedophiles from teaching. Implementing these rules, I believe, would virtually eliminate abuse in schools.

    We teach kids not to eat unkosher food. We don't initially give them the underlying reason. It's not that difficult to teach students to avoid unkosher contact with adults.

    ReplyDelete
  7. The more repressive the system, the more unnatural the human response to it.

    Your list of "missing fun" examples is false. Secular jews are not known for "date rape, teenage pregnancies, abortions, broken hearts, suicides".

    ReplyDelete
  8. There were some articles last year and the year before about Afganisthan high rate of homosexuality due to their extreme gender segregation... Not that such a thing would ever happen to the Jewish people but... it's a theme to think about. If guys can't see or talk to girls... his eyes might search for a face that more resembles the face of a girl... and it might be a male child... Well... crazy theory, I know... but... well... ok, found one of these articles: http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/brinkley/article/Afghanistan-s-dirty-little-secret-3176762.php

    ReplyDelete
  9. Bimchilas kvodo, this is mechapeh, veDa"l.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Politically IncorrectMarch 6, 2016 at 4:05 AM

    So basically, you don't either have compelling proof, since according to you there are no statistics, or that they are wholly inaccurate. Although I would tend to believe that we commit that less just like we commit murders and robberies less (that is harder to hide), I do recognize your points of concern. ...

    Also recalling that someone told me that he heard Bob Grant say (mishom ra'ayah? ) that if he would be in a dark train with the lights going out, he would rather be surrounded by Chassidim than African Americans (or maybe he just said "blacks")...

    ReplyDelete
  11. There is truth to your point. However, given the benefits of separation, and the detriments of separation, we choose separations for the sexes. Even though, there are some side effects. I am pointing out the benefits of separation of the sexes. To ignore the benefits, is usually being dishonest, but at best uninformed.

    ReplyDelete
  12. @@Monty
    will refute any argument that claims there is a lower percentage of sex offenders in the Chareidi/Hassidic communities. ..... We simply don't know the true percentages and as such, have absolutely no reason to believe the numbers are any different to the rest of the human population.

    What an insane argument. Since you feel that you have no proof that there fewer sex offenders in the Torah-observant communities, then there are obviously an equal amount or greater than secular society. Simply incredible that an intelligent person would dare say this type of empty logic.

    ReplyDelete

  13. Their primary sources are the several who have escaped the frum
    community, and are engaged in the mission of creating as much
    destruction as possible. These detestable creatures have long abandoned
    their victimhood, and have enlisted with the enemies of Klal Yisroel.
    I have lost my ability to have any rachmonus on them.


    Many of them were themselves victims of abuse, and then of coverup. Not to condone it, but it's not at all difficult to understand their anger and rebellion.

    ReplyDelete
  14. Houston! *WE* have a problem! We need to stick to the issues in our own backyards, without any comparisons or statistics from the other side of the fence. That is Hijacking the issues at hand and filibustering away. Molesters olecho Yisroel, and we need to do something about it outside of being in self denial or sweeping it under the rug. When someone speaks out about it, they victimize him or throw acid into his eyes and do all kinds of redifus, that is a fact. Until such things continue to happen, everything is all talk and coverups. What our children need is action, UMIYAD! This needs to be dealt with through Gedoilei haPoskim unaffiliated politically to any organization and without a kupa shel shrotzim behind them or being metaher shrotzim bekuf nun taamim. The Gedoilei Eretz Yisrael have said to go to the Mishtara.

    ReplyDelete
  15. The problems of covering up and protecting abusers in the orthodox community is a problem. It is horrible. It has to be stopped. I agree.

    I don't agree that there is a "Hassidic problem" of abuse. Systemic sexual abuse. Let's find out what the numbers are. I brought the sex offender registry. What did you bring ? Some out there wish it was. They are fortunately, isolated incidents. We must stamp it out. I don't want to downplay it. I want to use common sense solutions to stop it. I want everything that you want in the sense of stopping all abuse.

    Btw, almost as bad as covering for abusers, is the free and cavalier attitude almost neglect, that is found in some elements of the Hassidic community. Perhaps they have too many kids to look after. They don't think twice of having their children in the care of others, and don't even suspect when their children are in dangerous situations. The weberman case is a perfect example. I hate to mention the Kletzky case. Wake up!! There has to be information given to parents, and to children. Parents have to teach children at a young age. No one touches you!! If someone touches you, you tell us!! Video cameras in all public places especially schools, Shuls, and summer camps. Summer camps need to be super careful, about who they hire, and that they are protecting the children who go there. Policies about reporting abuse must be set before camp begins.

    With all that said, I challenge you, to show me that the numbers are the same. They aren't.

    ReplyDelete
  16. גמ׳ סנהדרין (חלק) אבר קטן יש באדם משביעו רעב מרעיבו שבע...

    The more promiscuous the society, the more the sexual problems. (See Sodom) It is also common sense. If you have the numbers, show them.

    ReplyDelete
  17. Given that there are no reliable statistics either way, and that there is a "greater-than-zero" amount of abuse that happens in Torah-observant communities (a term which by definition doesn't make sense), I fail to see how you can assume any position, other than it being no different to the rest of the surrounding human population.

    ReplyDelete
  18. "Let's find out what the numbers are. I brought the sex offender registry. What did you bring ?"

    This is valueless as a statistical source for reasons already covered. It is impossible to argue that there is less (or more) sex abuse that happens in these communities. So in the absence of reliable statistics, we cannot reach any conclusion other than make the assumption that there is no difference between these communities and the outside world. I fail to see why you are finding this simple train of thought so confusing.

    I challenge you, to show me that the numbers are the same.
    I don't need to, I am saying that we don't know the numbers and therefore can make no assumptions either way. If you want to say that abuse is lower, you need strong evidence to back up this claim.

    ReplyDelete
  19. Your racist argument could also point to more Chareidi Jewish people committing acts of large scale fraud and money laundering. This is a dangerous road to go down and you won't find the results particularly complementary towards the "frum" community.

    ReplyDelete
  20. there are some side effects. Suppose these "side effects are a direct causation of some of the cases of child abuse, would you still be happy to exalt the benefits of such a system? Is that a cost you are happy with?

    ReplyDelete
  21. I don't accept your argument any more than I accept an argument that blames sexual repression for an increase in sexual abuse and sexual crimes. https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/201004/sexual-repression-the-malady-considers-itself-the-remedy

    ReplyDelete
  22. Far less a percentage of chareidim are convicted of large scale fraud and money laundering than the general population's percentage of those convicted of those crimes.

    ReplyDelete
  23. Given that there are no reliable statistics either way..... I fail to see how you can assume any position

    It would be nice if you would practice what you preach, and apply your words to yourself.

    Question: Is there any comparison in public sexual harassment, hissing, starring, objectifying of women etc between what goes on in secular society to what the Torah-observant world is like?

    Honest answer: No

    When you compare it to despicable actions that are not public, there would have to be compelling reason to say that the Torah-observant community suddenly does it a high rate. Since you have no data, you should take your advice and stop the false accusations.

    ReplyDelete
  24. My advice to you would be to crawl back to the sewer you came from.

    Wow. You are welcome to try your advice for yourself.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Why can't people on this forum understand this simple point? @Moe Ginsburg , you have no statistics to back this up. Neither do I have any, so my hunch is as equally valid as yours. I suspect there are more people than you think, in the Chareidi community, who have involved themselves in fraud. But since neither of us know for sure, they are only opinions.

    ReplyDelete
  26. What evidence do you have that the separation of the sexes is the cause of child abuse ? It is a totally illogical conclusion !!

    Breaking down sexual abuse to it's fundamental cause, seems to me:

    1. Sexual urges to certain actions/enjoyment of said actions

    2. Abusive nature/enjoyment of abusive actions.

    When you mix the two together you have sexual abuse. Both are possible separately, but together it is toxic. It is particularly dangerous because of the enjoyment of the abuse by the predator.

    The easiest way to avoid sexual abuse is to limit the contact, and posssibility for it to occur. Among children, it would include parental supervision, increased education to parents, increased warning to children, and training children to report such actions. Teaching schools how to deal with such situations, teaching parents how to deal with such situations. Increased monitoring and videotaping and transparency in all public places. Including, schools, yeshivas, and especially summer camps, swimming pools, etc. Also, public mikvahs imo, should not allow children under 18 to immerse there.

    To assume that orthodox community has the same problems as the secular community in any violent/abusive crime, is not reality, and if you want to investigate the numbers, go to any police precinct and ask them. With that said, I am not here to convince you of it, as you would like to believe otherwise. As do all those who request scientific proof, to disprove their theories that are missing logic, and common sense.

    It really doesn't make a difference, as even one case can be very damaging, and even one abuser, can abuse hundreds of victims, and therefore, we must scream fire, and loud, when we know of any such terrible actions taken place. We mustn't cover over anything, or we are causing it to happen again, and worse. God forbid.

    The difference between me and you I guess, is I want the problem solved, while you also want to blame the orthodox, for this non orthodox problem.

    ReplyDelete
  27. Let me see if I have understood you correctly. You are saying that open sexual harassment in public is greater, in percentage terms, in the secular world, than the Chareidi community (I don't accept this anyway as you haven't presented any reliable statistics to this effect), and so therefore "it follows on" that sexual abuse that happens in private is also lower in Chareidi circles???? This is a flawed conclusion. Many serial abusers do not do so in public, so why should public behaviour be any guideline whatsoever as to how much abuse goes on in private????

    Your whole line of argument that there is less sex abuse in the chareidi community, and therefore we can pat ourselves on the back doesn't make any sense. What point are you trying to make? We have a problem in our communities and we need to deal with it, not try to minimize it as you are trying to do.

    If you want to discuss the Schlesinger Twins, we should find a different forum on which to do so. Let's stick to the facts backed by evidence, not on your personal feelings. Your personal loyalties might be distorting your ability to discern facts vs opinions.

    Your advocacy to protect abusers in not welcome in today's world.

    ReplyDelete
  28. Politically IncorrectMarch 6, 2016 at 6:38 PM

    OK, got it, the Divine secular and gentile system are the ones who should be putting up a Da'as Torah blog. We apparently are devoid of it. :-!

    ReplyDelete
  29. Let's stick to the facts backed by evidence, not on your personal feelings.

    Good idea. Now, let's see you practice what you preach as you edit comments to be consistent with facts backed by evidence. So far you have only engaged in week guesswork.

    Your advocacy to protect abusers in not welcome in today's world.

    What on earth are you talking about? However, your abusive language about returning to sewers and wholesale slandering of communities is not welcome in today's world, or ever.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Who is this child???

    ReplyDelete
  31. It is a picture of a child from the interent - has no relationship to the story - I have used it many times for posts dealing with child abuse

    ReplyDelete
  32. Politically IncorrectMarch 6, 2016 at 9:00 PM

    So you're arguing hunch for hunch, what a glorious waste of time. ....I thought about it long ago that if I had the time to answer for myself this question, I would go ask my local librarian at the reference desk. ....but I guess that I have other priorities. .......

    ReplyDelete
  33. "The difference between me and you I guess, is I want the problem solved, while you also want to blame the orthodox, for this non orthodox problem."
    So it is a non-orthodox problem that Weberman abused innocent victims whilst his community stood by him?????
    It is a non-orthodox problem that Manny Waks (and countless others) suffered abuse at the Chabad Yeshiva school in Melbourne and the Rabbis in charge covered it up over 3 decades???
    It is a non-orthodox problem that Todros Grynhaus abused children and then fled to Israel to evade justice for 5 years??? His defence team in court repeatedly accused the victims of lying for no other reason than to demoralise them. Only when Grynhaus was trying to request a lighter sentence did he then admit the abuse and try to minimize it. This is a non-orthodox problem???

    I really do wonder sometimes!!!

    ReplyDelete
  34. Politically IncorrectMarch 6, 2016 at 9:10 PM

    (Hmmmm. .....the blogging psychoanalyst)

    Well then bro........if you want to discriminate against what you call the frum community, "frum" community or Chareidi community (with innuendo, or without), then man, you gotta discriminate against everybody equally - equal discrimination for a or all! :-!.... huh?...o_O..................

    In any case, if you knock, gotta knock everybody together, 'cause udderwise, it just ain't fair, brutta.....

    ReplyDelete
  35. let's be very clear: The abuse has nothing to do with them being orthodox. You have brought nothing to the table, that would even remotely prove, that abuse is an orthodox problem. It is a problem worldwide, and I believe is a much smaller problem by the orthodox, than those who aren't, as are many other issues/problems of society, such as abortion, HIV, assault, armed robbery, and just about every other violent crime. The reason why it is less of a problem among the orthodox, into, is precisely because their upbringing is so disciplined, and they are taught right from wrong, all throughout their younger years, and lives.

    The issue you really seem to be talking about, (the orthodox part of the problem) is the crime of covering up abuse, when it happens . That IS a problem. A real problem. (Not that the abuse itself is not a problem, it is a horrible problem. It is just not an orthodox problem at all.) It is something which should not be tolerated. We must educate the parents, the children, the schools, the summer camps, about it, and we must report it to the police, so that we don't have repeat offenders.

    ReplyDelete
  36. "The reason why it is less of a problem among the orthodox, is precisely because their upbringing is so disciplined, and they are taught right from wrong, all throughout their younger years, and lives."

    Surely, weberman, grynhaus and so many other abusers grew up with the full chareidi education you refer to. Why didn't they learn right from wrong? Why didn't all their supporters learn right from wrong? We're not talking about one or two people, we're talking about whole communities standing by abusers and persecuting victims. When will you acknowledge that there are things seriously wrong with the chareidi education you talk about so highly?

    "I believe is a much smaller problem". I believe otherwise so it is your word against mine. Neither of us have any proof or evidence to this effect.

    ReplyDelete
  37. Politically IncorrectMarch 7, 2016 at 11:19 AM

    Monty, as for the beginning of your comment, I finally 'agree' with you, you won! We should NOT discipline our society and we MUST expose them to every desire (even drugs) to insure that they do not carry out their desires on innocent victims. The Mesorah of Klal Yisroel (Torah. ....diseminated through the unbroken chain of chachmai Yisroel) for MILLENIA lacks wisdom and must simply be discarded (Rachmana litzlan).


    As far as Weberman is concerned, I haven't followed the case closely, (nor the other cases), I have read an article in either Ami or Mishpacha, where his lawyer, George Farkas was interviewed. I have also read comments why he got such a sentence based on no evidence, just on 'she said'.

    But all aside, my bottom line - for your bottom line. ...."Neither of us have any proof or evidence to this effect", B"H, you seem to finally admit.

    ReplyDelete
  38. Four cases of abuse worldwide over the period of a few years. Doesn't sound like a systemic problem.

    Your belief doesn't really interest me. You don't have any evidence that there is a "orthodox problem" when it comes to abuse.

    There is a lot of unjustified hatred for the orthodox/Haredi/Hassidic community. You sound like one of the haters.

    Communities backing the perpetrators is a horrible thing!! People not reporting abuse and feeling bad for the perpetrators, is a horrible thing!!! However, here too we must analyze this. It is only horrible, if they know that he is guilty, and they cover for him anyway. If they believe him to be innocent, it is not so horrible. If it turns out that he is guilty, it is a tragedy. I don't know the individual cases too well, however I am pretty sure, that many of the people who supported these perpetrators, believed them to be innocent. It doesn't make it easier, or any better for the victims. These are horrible tragedies. I don't believe that there were many who knew that these guys were guilty, and still supported them.

    Regardless, we must be more open about reporting abuse, looking out for abuse, and must take a common sense approach to end abuse in the orthodox/Hassidic communities. I applaud and support that effort.

    ReplyDelete
  39. Given that the people you mentioned were subsequently found guilty, where is the apology for the way the community treated the victims?

    I don't actually believe that anyone should take any sides in abuse cases. We should all support a fair and unbiased investigation rather than jumping to support the abuser. I have yet to see any examples of whole communities stand behind victims in the same way as they do for abusers.

    ReplyDelete
  40. Are you saying you don't accept the guilty verdict against weberman found in a US court of law?

    ReplyDelete
  41. Politically IncorrectMarch 7, 2016 at 5:20 PM

    Who found him guilty? Did the community recognize and accept the court's verdict without question? Are they obligated to? You have too much faith. ..

    ReplyDelete
  42. Politically IncorrectMarch 7, 2016 at 5:29 PM

    Yeah, bingo, that's what I am saying, based on the above sources and coupled with what I just told you on a different comment, that I am not unclear why you seem to accept what a court says without question or without biases....were you ever in court?

    ReplyDelete
  43. What does "accept" mean? Its a fact that he was convicted and that he will serve a life sentence.

    Are you sure that the story was true? Have there been no bad verdicts in US history? How do you KNOW that the story was true?

    ReplyDelete
  44. Four cases of abuse worldwide over the period of a few years. Doesn't sound like a systemic problem.

    I have no idea whether or not the problem is more or less prevalent in Orthodox communities, but if you think it was limited to "four cases worldwide over the period of a few years," you are either in dreamland or in severe denial.

    ReplyDelete
  45. The video you presented from the UK says it all. That not only shows the coverup by calling it messira, but is a full blown coverup for a *family member*. Im bearozim noflo shalheves uma yomru ezoivei kir. Kema'asehu b-UK, kach maasehu b-US, b-Aussie uvchol mekomos sheheim, and that goes all the way to the top. The keyword is *mechapeh*, no matter how you slice it. There are plenty of resources online that present and even enumerate all these offenders and the infestaion of this humongous problem all across the board the world over so that you cannot deny. No need to isolate any particular sect. Even to this date, anyone that dares speak up, they throw acid into his face R'L' and rodef them ad chormo and beyond. There is no cure for such no matter how many years you put him away, but at least you keep the public safe by isolating him from society. Monty! You are right on the money, and no matter what proof you can bring, they will be in denial and act like a Ba's haYa'ano. hashem haTov yerachem aleihem veal ollelenu veal tapeinu.

    ReplyDelete
  46. I know it is worse than that. My point was/is clear.

    ReplyDelete
  47. I absolutely agree with this point. It is horrible, and a travesty, especially in cases like the weberman case. In Lakewood there was also a case where a guy was run out of town for taking a child molestor to court. Even though he had a Psak that it was permitted.

    To understand why it happens (the community taking the perpetrator's side), is half the battle in fighting it and making sure it doesn't happen. I will try to explain it, and hopefully find solutions to stop it.

    1. In secular world, they say "innocent until proven guilty", but they don't practice it. They like "throwing the book" at someone even accused of a heinous crime. The media definitely doesn't practice it. (As in the Stark Case). In the orthodox world they are more likely to practice innocent until proven guilty, and ignore the media.

    2. Orthodox Jews are wonderful, however, they aren't psychologists. They don't understand the pain and suffering caused by sexual abuse. To many, it's just some pervert who touched a girl/boy. To send him to jail seems too harsh.

    3. The shame factor is horrible. The structure of orthodox life, the family/community, being accused of sexual abuse is a terrible shame, and it's not one they can run away from. In secular society they can move to a different state. No one will ever know. Orthodox Jews are part of a worldwide group. No where to run, no where to hide. It also affects more than the perpetrator. It can affect his children's schools, his business, his children's potential shidduchim. Even in cases of divorce, it is not uncommon for whole families to strategize, and so "damage control", even at times spreading false stories about the "other side", in a quest to protect themselves from the shame of divorce, let alone sexual abuse.

    These are the reasons fighting, and exposing molestors is so difficult.

    The solution however, is not just exposing and prosecuting, unless you are a hater of Orthodox Jews.

    The solutions are in education, and safety. Educating people as to the pain and suffering of victims of abuse. Educating parents on how best to protect their children, and to be more suspicious of those who they would never suspect. Educating children to report to parents anyone who touches them inappropriately. Protecting any and all public areas. Getting the perpetrators the help they need to stop their behavior, if possible.

    In summary, The reason the coverup is such a problem is because they are more trusting, and don't "get" the pain caused, combined with the shame of the perpetrator and family, and will be solved with an education campaign and practical safety solutions.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Like kishke goes with Chulent, butter with bread, peanut butter with chocolate. Yum yum yum.

    ReplyDelete
  49. Looks a lot like Donald trump.

    ReplyDelete
  50. You fail to address some key concerns that have already been aired here by other commentators.

    1) A chareidi education and lifestyle that is sexually repressive (for example, doesn't even show pictures of women in newspapers, such as politicians or even rebbetzens), in some cases, may cause people to have unnatural/extreme sexual desires. This has been studied extensively and cannot be simply dismissed as irrelevant.

    2) The solution however, is not just exposing and prosecuting, unless you are a hater of Orthodox Jews.. Doesn't it make sense to expose abusers so that the rest of the population can keep their children away from him/her? Don't you think that prosecuting offenders acts as a deterrent towards others who might consider abusing children? Only a hater of children would want to keep the names of child sex offenders a secret and keep them out of prison so that they would be a continued risk to other children. If no one knows about the abuse, they could even get jobs in a different towns so that they could be close to children.

    In summary, you are too sympathetic to abusers and the causes of abuse. Anyone who doesn't regard holding a knife to a child's throat while anally raping them, as something that might be painful to a child, simply doesn't qualify to belong to the human race.
    (see 3:45 in this clip) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPhBLqfOJEc

    ReplyDelete
  51. I'll answer your points.

    1. If there is one thing that the orthodox are amazing at, it is education. To denounce the education, because the newspapers won't print pictures of women, is akin to denouncing democracy, because of the national enquirer. It just makes no sense. The logic doesn't follow at all.

    If you meant that the orthodox schools are extremist in regard to separation of the sexes, and you feel that them bending a little the other way would be helpful, perhaps you are right. However, that it should be the cause of sexual abuse, seems more than a bit far fetched.

    2. I am not sympathetic to rapists, God forbid. I have no sympathy for them. My sympathies are with the victims. I definitely do want them exposed and punished. However, I want more than that. I don't want these occurrences happening in the first place.

    Let me ask you, as you seem to be interests in solving the problems of orthodoxy. How do you plan to change the orthodox way of teaching, to include pictures of women. How do you change the mindset of the orthodox about the severity of sexual abuse ? You speak a good knock. What you don't do is offer solutions ?!!!

    I actually agree with you. The separation of the sexes in Hassidic life is a bit much. It is much for me. I think it is too much for many to deal with. I respect it though, and understand it. I am pretty sure it doesn't effect sexual abuse in a negative way. There definitely are some negatives that come from it. Overall, the positives outweigh the negatives imo.

    ReplyDelete
  52. And in my opinion, the negatives of such an oppressive society far outway the positives you talk about.

    You asked for my opinion about what should change. How about this:

    1) an apology from rebbe's/gedolim/leaders of chareidi communities for the way they handled the aforementioned well publicized abuse cases. Rabbi Zimmerman is already ahead of the game on this one and has earned himself respect for it.

    2) public announcements from gedolim to say that "something must change" regarding education, preventing abuse, and dealing with cases of reported abuse. For now, this initial step would suffice.

    Do you think even these small steps will happen?

    I think we both already know the answer!

    ReplyDelete
  53. If you listen to the end of the segment you'll hear the interviewer asking Laibl if he can attribute such incidents to the repression of sexual urges in the Orthodox community, and he replies that no, he doesn't.

    Until it can be proven that statistically there is a higher rate of such incidents in more repressive communities, this premise is nothing more than a belief.

    Such type of misbehavior, Laibll says, belongs to people who are on the fringes of normalcy. Sexual discipline should play no role in that.

    ReplyDelete
  54. What you see as oppressive, is seen by many unbiased viewers, as beautiful, and self disciplined. A society that is basically without violent crime, and peaceful with its neighbors.

    You seem like you are more interested in humiliating rabbis, than stopping child molestation, or sexual abuse. Your views are typical of haters of the Hassidic community.

    The truth is, you are wrong about sexual abuse having anything to do with orthodoxy. Rabbis/Gedolim don't owe apologies for sexual abuse, unless they committed it. If they KNOWINGLY protected sexual abusers, they are horrible people, and only specific cases have, and specific rabbis have protected abusers. They don't owe you an apology. They owe the victims an apology. Frankly, I don't think apology is enough.

    Perhaps you are upset for them protecting "accused abusers". Reality is, not just halakhically, but all accused members of any democratic society prior to conviction, are deemed innocent. If you have a problem with that, it's perhaps because you paint all orthodox as negative, and assume all accused are guilty. That is your own bias and issue, not an orthodox issue, not a Hassidic one.

    ReplyDelete
  55. It seems like I am not the only person to question whether sexually repressive societies are a contributory factor to some abuse and the nature that this abuse takes.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sex-dawn/201004/sexual-repression-the-malady-considers-itself-the-remedy

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/religious-sexual-repressi_b_2852384.html

    I guess we will need more research and statistics to say for sure, but who wants to take that risk?

    ReplyDelete
  56. Politically IncorrectMarch 10, 2016 at 12:22 PM

    And it seems like that I am not the first person to question whether sexually *permissive* societies are the contributory factor to the abuse!

    First, I notice bashing of the Frum community, then I notice bashing of Torah ideology (on a blog concerning Da'as Torah) of restriction between the genders. Just say it clearly that you are not confident about the Torah's thinking!

    ReplyDelete
  57. What is the newly appointed Rav's hashkafic affiliation (in terms of more specific than general chareidi)?

    ReplyDelete
  58. You are too sensitive! I will bring to the fore any issues within the chareidi/chassidic communities that have been brought into discussion by the original blog post. Such issues, as have mentioned previously, like these communities persecuting victims, covering abuse, failure to alert the public who may be at risk from abusers, should be addressed as a matter of urgency.

    If you regard this as chareidi bashing and would rather these issues not be discussed, then I'm afraid you're part of the problem.

    I am not confident about some of the interpretations by chareidi communities of the Torah. As any regular reader of the excellent daas Torah blog will know, there is no shortage of Rabbinic corruption in matters like giving heterim, beis din rulings that deliberately contradict halacha, the list goes on. My point is that people can use the Torah to justify lots of despicable behaviour but that does not mean the Torah is bad that just means the person interpreting the Torah in this distorted way is bad. Chareidim don't have a monopoly on the Torah, and are accountable to the rest of klal yisroel in cases of significant chilul hashem.

    ReplyDelete
  59. Calling it messira is only to ward off the victims from going to the authorities, mostly by those that have been involved either directly or close family members thereof, as has been noted here on this blog. They usually follow with redifus from the perpetrators themselves or their sympathizers and they are pretty well organized as a group. It just doesn't make sense to interfere and having such things continued, as many of the top poskim from Israel have urged to inform the authorities.

    ReplyDelete
  60. Please supply some links to the media coverage of the story you described.

    ReplyDelete
  61. I love when they don't like the message, they shoot the messenger! However, I'm one of of the old time messengers without an agenda, as I stated, "I am not staking a position; I just want to make a point", 'Just the facts, ma'am.'

    I read you posts, you're a bright guy. Get over it.

    I am a black box to you. However, you already are degrading me due to some presumption. You may be surprised; some years ago in the US, a child molester, pushed from one town to another by corrupt Rabbanim, landed on my street. I led the charge, and the molester sat in prison for a long time. One who assumes makes an a.. of himself.

    ReplyDelete
  62. Monty, why would I supply the Blogosphere with the name of an individual who was railroaded by a foolish Rabbi and a corrupt justice system? If you don't believe me, tough luck. See my reply to Moe Ginsburg for further explanation.

    ReplyDelete
  63. No idea what you're talking about.

    ReplyDelete
  64. I would prefer to see a more reliable account of the story you describe, rather than your account which has been written anonymously about unnamed individuals with no way for anyone to independently verify it.

    I am disregarding your comment above and hope that many people reading this will do the same.

    ReplyDelete
  65. And today another story in the paper of record of a false conviction recognized after 24 years in prison. 24 years of an innocent man's life in jail for being convicted in America for a crime he did not commit.

    And then we have some folks here wondering why Hashem in his Torah issued a Halacha prohibiting us Yidden from mesira. Go on saying mesira is no longer applicable because "we live in the goldene medina of America" and what a just country it is.

    Use this story as Exhibit A. You can have stories similar to this as Exhibits B through Z. Then you'll need a new numbering system for these countless stories.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/11/nyregion/locked-away-for-24-years-han-tak-lee-still-feels-imprisoned.html

    "Locked Away for 24 Years, an Exonerated Man Still Feels Imprisoned"

    ReplyDelete
  66. Are you assuming that a beis din or a rav doesn't make mistakes? The obligation is to protect children - which requires a legal system which can provide punishments. We are required to use that system even if it makes mistakes.

    There is no justification for not protecting children with the excuse that the secular system makes mistakes.

    Mesira is not prohibited because the legal system makes mistakes. If you have sources that disagree - please provide them.

    ReplyDelete
  67. My post began, "Generally, the issue of mesirah is discussed macrocosmically. I am not staking a position; I just want to make a point." Was this the post you were referring to in your reply that began, "What is the newly appointed Rav's hashkafic affiliation"?

    ReplyDelete
  68. And... another story in the paper of record the same day as the last. Two acquittals after an innocent man spent multiple decades in prison for a crime he did not commit.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/11/nyregion/brooklyn-man-is-exonerated-after-25-years-in-prison-for-murder.html

    Brooklyn Man Is Exonerated After 25 Years in Prison for Murder

    If you trust the America justice system as just, I have a bridge to sell in Brooklyn. The price is very negotiable.

    Yes, these examples very much are why the Torah prohibits mesira even in the goldene medina of America.

    ReplyDelete
  69. that is not the reason for mesira - again provide sources for your claim

    ReplyDelete
  70. David, we have met on this blog before, when discussing the case of the Schlesinger twins. You seemed hesitant there to say that there was a "mistake" in the court's custody decision (that is polite language for Jewish-orchestrated corruption). Given your comments above, please can you confirm, that we, as a Jewish community, will not acknowledge any justification for Mr Schlesinger to have full custody of these innocent children based on the Austrian court rulings?

    ReplyDelete

ANONYMOUS COMMENTS WILL NOT BE POSTED!
please use either your real name or a pseudonym.