Guest Post
Hello R' Eidensohn,
First of all, thank you for your continuing coverage of the Epstein situation. Your thorough coverage and posting of the relevant documents has allowed us all to make our own informed and educated judgments on the issue rather than having to fall back on blind reliance on others.
I would like to note one point that I believe has been overlooked. RSK has written that he was never matir Tamar, and some commenters on your site continually repeat this claim ("It's not his psak", etc.. On the other hand, Rav Nota Greenblatt has said that he was relying on the "Gedolim",which indicates that the Kamenetzkys were in fact the first matirim. How to resolve this seeming contradiction?
If you look at the first document in this post -http://daattorah.blogspot.com/
In other words, the Kamenetzkys did in fact declare that Tamar is muteres. They may not have communicated their psak directly to Tamar, which might explain RSK's denial of ever being matir her. But it's worthwhile to know, that black on white, they both gave the heter, which Rav Nota Greenblatt then rubber stamped, with his (entirely honest and true explanation) that the Kamenetzkys were matir her and he was following their lead.
Thank you.
It's far more insidious than that, by them writing a teshuvah in the way of the Shaila they affectively duped RNG to think that he was the third person to be mattir being mitztaref to a heter not initiating it which takes off the onus from him to verify the facts among other things. and they left him carrying the bag, how immoral.
ReplyDeleteAccording to RNG, who were the other two matirim attributing the Heter? Why doesn't R' Dovid ask for *ALL* of the sent out letters and *responses* Heterim and Denials gam yachdov. As far as halacha is concerned, there is no Cherem deRabeinu Gershom on letters that need to be scrutinized because of Megaleh ponim baTorah shelo keHalacha and to refrain a couple from living in sin. Nesei sefer venechzei.
ReplyDeleteThese letter scams of RShalom K is similar to the one Avshalom ben David scammed when he rebelled. He asked King David for a letter to have him provided two meshorsim to any town he arrives at. He thereby collected a whole army of pairs of people while holding on to all. If indeed RNG was the first to undersign solo, then Mitztaref has no validity or credibility to begin with. These are all fair questions to be asked the K's, and short of answers it talks for itself.
Avshalom actually succeeded in his plan , shalom on the other hand with his brilliant machinations has only managed to alienate his closest confidantes. I'm sure not all managed to figure out exactly what he had up his sleeve or care to make the effort , but all realize by now that he's playing games and absolutely totally dishonest .vesalef bogdim yashdem. My hope is that this BD will realize that and and make the obvious conclusions
ReplyDeleteto be honest with you, I have to be מוחה against those speaking bad about the Kaminetzky family. אנשים צדיקים וטובים. ותשם דמי מלחמה ממש בחגורתו אשר במתניו ובנעלו אשר ברגליו.
ReplyDeleteI don't know how anyone gets away with speaking ill of a ראש ישיבה of one of the biggest yeshivas of our time. If he was מתיר, then you would assume she is מותר, and if he was אוסר then she is אסור.
Same goes for הג׳ ר׳ נטע. Since when do we not listen to פוסקים. I just don't get it. Every בר בי רב דחד יומא (myself included) becomes an Internet פוסק. Omg !!!
Obviously guest poster you didn't do your research before you went and put your post together. The last paragraph in that letter was conveniently omitted by whoever put together the smear campaign against the Kamenetskys as you are doing. He specifically states that he is not coming to be matir but to ask for a heter. The original is readily available for anyone that wants the true facts There is not much going on for the anti's to keep busy with so you regurgitate old lies and start a new conversation. If you want to make the argument that Reb Nuta relied on them to give the psak your entitled to your opinion although wrong but present the true facts and then make your false allegations.
ReplyDeletethere are two version of the letter - both of which have been posted on this blog
ReplyDeleteplease read the letters. This discussion is not something created in a yeshiva coffee room based on wild imaginings of events
ReplyDeleteHow many times does a major rabbi have to say publicly in wriiting that the heter is worthless for you to pasken that it is permissible to say that the Kaminetskys and Rav Greenblatt made a serious error
If he was מתיר, then why *Meolam lo hitarti*?
ReplyDeleteif he was אוסר, then how was she FREE?
Can any בר בי רב דחד יומא make a ברוך מתיר אסורים?
Since when do we not listen to פוסקים?
When it's a תרתי דסתרי בחד יומא!
Let the truth stand up and speak for itself.
In reality they all lost out, gam Av veGam Shalom veAvShalom lost out. Avshalom lost out by Yoav ben Tsruyo, and Av ubno by the Gedoilei uPoskei haDor. R' Dovid only needs to show av ubno ALL the letters, veyaamid al shoiroi.
ReplyDeleteI actually love the coffee room!! They haven't said they made an error. Have they ? Is Rav Nota not allowed to pasken on kidushei Taos ? Isn't everyone who is getting married, doing it אדעתא דרבנן ?
ReplyDeleteIn neither of the ones posted on the blog does it include the last paragraph where he specifically says he is not paskening. It was included in all correspondence that was sent out at the time. Many of the Rabbonim that had the same question when they saw the originals agreed that the Kamenetskys did not pasken. Not discussing the validity of the Heter but the accusations against the Kamenetskys specifically Reb Shmuel are wrong
ReplyDeleteSalty, let's say for argument's sake that you are correct.
ReplyDeleteLet's say Rav Kamanetzky never gave the heter.
Let's say Rav Greenblat gave it on his own accord, and Rav Kamanetzky's finger prints are not all over it.
Let's say.
Ok, and now what?
Now Rav Kamanetzky, as a Gadol on equal or higher caliber is put in a position to deal with the accusations of Gedolei Yisrael, about the possibility that there is an Eishes Ish, a woman who can mother a mamzer in HIS town. Not only in his town, but the daughter of a late chashuva member of his close court. A daughter of a man to whom Rav Kamanetzky feels a great sense of hakaras hatov and friendship.
There is a great accusation being thrust upon a chasuva bas yisreal.
Why is Rav Kamanetzky not running to publicly clear her name if she is indeed innocent. Why does he not place a public kol koireh to vanquish the fires of accusations against her?
Why is he silent?
When Yehuda heard about the accusations against Tamar, he sprung into action immediately. And when he realized that he was to blame as well, he took responsibility. The Torah praises him highly for it. Incidently, the Torah places more credence for the admission if his error than his possible error itself.
But to sit back, and whipe ones hands clean is a terrible thing. Iyov got punished greatly for it.
If Rav Kamanetzky claims the heter is valid, let him rise up and publicly say so. Even if he is in the minority, like Rav Elazar from the Gemara, let him come and state his position.
And if he holds the heter is invalid, let him find the strength and courage to stand up and say so.
But it is his silence to this very public issue that is both incriminating to him, and confusing to those who respect him.
Therefore?
ReplyDeleteEven if he is 100% correct, the halacha goes after the rov. Like the story of Rav Elazar.
ReplyDeleteTorah lo bashamayim he.
But you are correct, no one should speak in disparaging terms about him. Not about Rav Shmuel, and not Rav Shalom.
In fact we should not talk disparagingly about any member of Klal Yisrael
Therefore, if prominent רבנים have reason to be מפקיע the kiddushin, as ר ׳משה פיינשטיין has done in a specific case, the kiddushin would not have been חל. I am not a wise man, however I wonder, whether the Halacha would allow her to get married, if רבנים were מפקיע the kiddushin
ReplyDeleteMIshnah mefureshes, sovro vekiblah needs a Get, no taus there. That's leravcha demilsa, since the Rofeh mumche veyere shomayim are practically worthless. Q: Why would a rofeh yere shamayim draft up something that according to Hilchos refuah, you must hear from the husbands mouth in order to give an opinion one way or another.
ReplyDeleteIs that what you call a Baki betiv? Even in inyanin that are outside of Betiv, such is not worth the paper written on.
Hakol min hashomayim chuts miYiras shomayim.
Translation please.
ReplyDeleteThe one place he hasn't made his position very clear is as a guest post on this blog. He has said time and time again. He did not give the heter and Reb Nuta Greenblatt is a Bar samcha. He has stated that since this has caused such an up roar of opposition that he suggested that Reb Dovid Feinstein should review all the facts and whatever he decides he will go along with that. Read his letter to the GAVAD. That was his position before you even made up your name and this brilliant idea to portray yourself as a women. What is so confusing about that.
ReplyDeleteBased of my limited knowledge, and correct me if I am wrong, my perception of the situation is as follows - based of my limited understand of the maids with rebbe Elazar.
ReplyDeleteEven if Rav Kamanetzky holds that the heter is valid, and there is reasons unbeknown to us to annul the marriage, he can not do so here on earth. Why? Because the majority of the poskim disagree with him. And this dispute in halacha would follow after the rov. (Majority).
And even if shamayim agrees with the pesak, we would still have to pasken after the rov, in this case we would pasken, that heter is indeed invalid since the majority had ruled it thus....
Which means that even if Rav Kamanetzky is 100% correct bidei shamayim, we still do not hold from it....
I'm not sure if I am clear, or if perhaps my understanding is incorrect.
This is just my perception of the situation, but I am open to hearing the thoughts on this.
Really? Then read this:
ReplyDeleteל
זה נכתב על ידי שלו' קמנצקי, והראתי את הדברים אל אאמו"ר כל הג"ר שמואל קמנצקי שליט"א,
*והסכים*
על הדברים, [וגם הוא שמע כל עדותו של הרופא המומחה יר"ש הנ"ל] וביקש ממני
שאציע את הדברים לפני הגהר"ר נטע גרינבלאט שליט"א שהוא בקי בענינים אלו, הצעתי את
הדברים לפני הגאון הנ"ל שליט"א ועבר על כל הנידון וגם על דברי שהצעתי לו, *והסכים* עם
הדברים, וגם כתב תשובה להתיר האשה תמר תחי' לינשא, ושוב הצעתי את הדברים לפני
אאמו"ר שליט"א ואמר: כדאי הר"ר נטע שליט"א *לסמוך עליו* להתיר אשה זו מכבלי עיגונה,
*והרשה לי לכתוב כן בשמו*
RNG was matir beTziruf. It definitely reflects as RSK sr was MATIR every step of the way, and that's how all the POSKEI haDOR understood these DOVRIM KIKSOVOM, and certainly RNG even to this day he is begging that he was duped. Anyone who misunderstands otherwise, is either wrong or was mislead to understand wrong with intent, MALICE and swindle. Let the POSKIM PASKEN what the term of *VEHISKIM* in terms of PISKEI DINIM equals to. It is unbecoming of a Godol to play around with words and being matir Gilui Aroyos with such utter hefkeirus. Can RSK explain all this shuttling around back and forth was for???
Analogy:
ReplyDeleteIf a Tammy is unable to obtain Adam's drugs, due to the fact that Adam will only sell it to her for a fair price. Tammy is not willing to pay the fair market value. In fact, she and her friends, the Smarts, think that the free market system is unfair. She should be able to receive what she wants for free.
First she and the Smarts try to bully, attack and otherwise force Adam to give her the drugs, gratis. When that does not work, her trusted influential friends come up with another scheme.
The Smarts begin shopping around from lawyer to lawyer to find another way to obtain an illegal version of the drug that Tammy would like. In their shopping quest, they lie. Eventually, they find an 89 year-old lawyer who mistakenly gives her a legal way to purchase the drug. Then, the Smarts go out and seek to convince pharmacists to feed her the drugs. Eventually, someone is found.
Tammy is warned not take the drugs. She disregards the warnings, since the Smarts will protect her from all legal issues, using the permission granted by the 89 year-old lawyer.
When word gets out of what the smarts have done, they face a tremendous backlash. The Smarts defend themselves by saying that they are not responsible since A) they did not grant legal permission. That was granted by the trusting 89 year-old lawyer.
However, to any sane person, they are responsible for their shopping spree. To any sane person, they are responsible for encouraging Tammy to swallow the drug. While the Smarts did not ingest drugs themselves; and while the Smarts did not officially grant the legal permission themselves; to sane people, they are responsible for precisely the actions that they undertook.
Two basic flaws with your argument. There is no requirement to go my majority rule unless all the poskim were in a room together and fully discussed the issue and then took a vote. A poskek who is convinced he is right does not have to give in to the majority.
ReplyDeleteBut the above is irrelevant. The Kaminetsky-Greenblatt heter is not the basis of a dispute between poskim. The heter is based on lies about the psychological health of Aharon Friedman. So even if there is a minority view that allows declaring the marriage invalid if the husband has severe uncurable personality disorder - but the claim that Aharon Friedman has two severe uncurable personality disorders that no sane woman would live with - is simply a lie.
There is no halachic dispute here at all.
See Rav Malinowitz' letter that makes this point
Salty lets see if we can find some common ground. Do you agree that the Kaminetsky's were instrumental in SEEKING OUT and OBTAINING the heter?
ReplyDeleteDo you agree that the refusal of the Kaminetsky's to reject the Heter in the face of world wide condemnation has placed Tamar and Adam in a very bad position?
Do you agree that without the information from the Kaminetsky's that Rav Greenblatt would not have given the heter?
First of all how do you know which version is correct ? Second of all when was the last time anyone ever asked a question and have to say I'm only asking a question I'm not giving a answer?
ReplyDeleteWe are is the original available for that matter any documentation which would exonerate the K even if it existed which I don't think it does it's beneath The case even relate to this whole controversy, which has been a big factor in their whole downfall since people realize how arrogant they are.
I vehemently disagree when you use the plural. First let us agree that Reb Shmuel was not the one involved and if you want to say he knew about it I will agree with that. After that fact is established we can discuss the rest of the questions at hand.
ReplyDeleteSo basically he whiped his hands clean and shook of his responsibility and thrust the blame to some one else?
ReplyDeleteThank you for explaining. I understand better now.
ReplyDeleteYou are missing the last paragraph. when you include that we can discuss it further.
ReplyDeleteYour'e fighting a lost battle. RNG himself said he was duped. He declared his ruling was on condition that the report was legit, let those that forged all docs tell Tamar to separate.
ReplyDeletePlease do not compare the two. The K's are 1000 percent wrong both b'dinei shomayam and b'dinei adam. Lo Haya Velo Nivra. Please do not justify them and insult Rabi Eliezer and the rest of Klal Yisroel's intelligence. Yes, they are Roshei Yeshiva. Yes, the father has done good things for Klal Yisroel. But when you twist sheker into emes for your own personal agenda, that is where we draw the line. End of story. Period.
ReplyDeleteYou probably meant tanuro shel Achnai Rabi Eliezer, amos hamayim yochiach... B.M. 59:
ReplyDeleteOn that day R. Eliezer brought forward every imaginable argument,3 but they did not accept them. Said he to them: 'If the halachah agrees with me, let this carob-tree prove it!' Thereupon the carob-tree was torn a hundred cubits out of its place — others affirm, four hundred cubits. 'No proof can be brought from a carob-tree,' they retorted. Again he said to them: 'If the halachah agrees with me, let the stream of water prove it!' Whereupon the stream of water flowed backwards — 'No proof can be brought from a stream of water,' they rejoined....
In any case, that is not relevant here since they claim they never paskenedn at all. The whole thing is a farce, swindle and forgery just to outsmart Aron demonstrating their power against anything and everything Torah and Shulchan Aruch states. It is a chilull hashem and we need not allocate any kavod to neither. They know it, but can't face it. Umodeh veozev yeruchom, but they are too proud in doing so. The days are counted and will lose out miserably. There really is nothing more to add.
Even the Rabbanim [RNG] replied only if
ReplyDelete1) Crystal clear about the health claims
2) It is equivalent to R' Moshe's case e.g.
3) When there is no other choice
That is all I have. Bevakasha, if you insistn there is more to it, kindly yelamdenu rabenu!
ReplyDeleteSave your breath. He has sent out both letters to different folks. Each one was to swindle in a different manner an alleged heter.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Eidensohn, is it possible the blog is being hacked. I see responses:
ReplyDelete"Detected as spam Thanks, we'll work on getting this corrected."
as well as other peculiar happenings
don't see any evidence for it. Disqus sometimes acts weird
ReplyDeleteHowever selectively so. Mostly on the tpoic on/of ORA and cohorts.
ReplyDeleteSure -Adayta d'rabbonon - v'lo adayta d'RA bonnon.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, Adayta d'rabbonon, as opposed to nichnas bo ruach shtus..
Finally, adayta d'rabbonon - but must also work mid'oraisah....
Hope this helps. ..
Ayyyyyy. ...shomer psoyim HaShem. ....
ReplyDeleteTo be mafkia on a ' say so'?! G-d forbid, not rabbonim after the times of Chazal! It didn't work with magic, it worked because Klal Yisroel recognized their Koach to t h e point where EVERY kiddushin was done EXCLUSIVELY with intent to satisfy those sages' guidelines!
ReplyDeleteSame thing happened to me. Once you tell them it's not spam you shouldn't have the problem again.
ReplyDeleteHere's my point. רב נטע is a יודע בטיב גיטין.
ReplyDeleteרב שמואל קמנצקי is from the גדולי ראשי ישיבה בזמננו.
Why would I not give them the benefit of the doubt, when I don't know the details, and it seems that they do, and it seems that even after all the מחאות ,they haven't said צדקה ממני.
I am posing this as a question, more than anything else.
Such coy and evasive answers might work well in presidential debates and such, where honesty and forthrightness is not the the winning attribute, but a Torah personality to give such evasive answers is in itself very telling.can you imagine r'Moshe or r's.a.Auerbach etal giving such political answers.obviously RS K is not the person he passed himself of to be all these years ein tocho kebaro!!!!
ReplyDeleteIf it makes you feel any better it has happened to me too. I first thought it was the rosh yeshiva of the blog but after doing my due diligence in getting all the facts before making unsubstantiated false accusations I found that disques thinks if you send out to many replys to fast that it's spam. What the formula is I do not know.
ReplyDeleteWhere is your phantom last paragraph???
ReplyDeleteWhen I clicked the not spam icon, it replied they will look into it. I have about a dozen sitting and waiting for them to be sent, by now they are probably stale, either etrogim after sukkot and who knows could even be chamets sheavar olov Pesach. Please don't accuse me of making false accusations. There is more than ample time, even days between the sent out dates. What is bothersome, that most are regarding ORA and their chicanery ma'asse ta'atuim having the common denominator. And No, it doesn't make me feel any better you encountering of the same.
ReplyDeleteThanx. i already did. Could be hooded ORA gangsters crept in - in disguise :-)
ReplyDeleteYou claim that there is an additional paragraph that has not been reproduced. The letter looks like a complete reproduction to me, so you are going to have to show us that text if you want anyone to believe you.
ReplyDeleteI am posing this as a question, more than anything else.
ReplyDelete1) רב נטע made it clear that he only gave the "heter" based upon what the Kaminetzkies told him.
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2015/11/tamar-epstein-heter-r-greenblatt-said.html
If the facts presented are incorrect, then so is the heter - even according to Rabbi Greenblatt.
2) Why do you not give Rav Moshe Shternbauch, Rav Weiss, Rav Chatzkel Roth, Rav Slomo Miller, Rav Ahron Schechter, Rav Elya Ber Wachtfogel, Rav Avrohom Yehoshua Soloveichik, Rav Malkiel Kotler, and so many more rabbonim the benefit of the doubt? Why be selective in whom to give the benefit of the doubt to? Also, if someone is wrong, why not assume that one person is wrong, instead of assuming that hundreds of serious rabbonim are wrong?
Do you know if the couple is together, or if they have separated?
ReplyDeleteIt's not hundreds. You have only 3 poskim in your list. You are missing one person from this list who is the elephant in the room. He is probably the biggest פוסק in america, and perhaps the world today, who didn't sign as far as I know. הרב דוד פיינשטיין שליט״א!!!! Why do you think he hasn't signed ? Doesn't that tell you anything ??? Do you not think that if רב נטע was mislead, or רב שמואל was mistaken, or the facts were just wrong, that they would not have admitted their mistake?? Especially after all this pressure ??
ReplyDeleteI don't know what it is.. I am just not sure that there isn't either more to the story, or facts that are not public. Something here is terribly wrong..
As an aside, A signed קול קורא with 10 names usually means one פוסק signs, and half those on the list sign as well, relying on the פוסק. Which in itself is not a problem. But doesn't take away from the original פסק להתיר.
Again, I don't know the facts. I don't know the הלכה. I am just asking from you people who seem to know all the facts.
I am not a בקי in this case. I don't rely on רופאים. I am wondering this child is going to be a ממזר/ת. As far as this עדות, perhaps עד שקרים לא ינקה ויפיח כזבים יאבד . Perhaps שש הנה שנא ה׳ וגו לשון שקר , ויפיח כזבים עד שקר. Perhaps it's בבחינת of עד שקרים לא ינקה ויפיח כזבים לא ימלט. Perhaps עד כזבים יאבד ואיש שומע לנצח ידבר. Or maybe it's מציל נפשות עד אמת ויפיח כזבים מרמה. Either way, until I hear from הגאון החסיד העניו מורנו ורבינו הרב דוד פיינשטיין שליט״א , I would assume the child is not a ממזר/ת.
ReplyDeleteכדאי הוא ר נטע ור׳ שמואל ושתיקת פוסק הדור ר׳ דוד לסמוך עליהם בשעת הדחק. כל זה נראה לי לפום ריהטא. However I am not a פוסק. And of course דעת בעל הבית היפך מדעת תורה on some occasions. So I'll leave it for the real Internet פוסקים to weigh in (all of you)
לקיים מה שנאמר כי רבים חללים הפילה ועצומים כל הרוגיה
The case of ר אליעזר was different. You have רבנים who gave a פסק. The woman listened to the רבנים. She got married. She is pregnant. Can you fault her ?? What was she supposed to do ?? Not listen to the פסק ?? Even if their פסק is not correct. Do you go ahead and put the רבנים in חרם, and make the child a ממזר ? Or do you find a way to be מתיר this child ?? Just asking ?? I bet you that שר התורה הגאון ר׳ דוד פיינשטיין שליטא is not just on a whim, signing a קול קורא. He is seeing if there is a possibility to be מתיר the child. I would bet, if there is, he will be מתיר. If the child is a ממזר/ת, he will let people know. My money is on הגר׳ דוד פיינשטיין's פסק, whether לקולא or לחומרא. In my opinion he is the פוסק אחרון. The חרש והמסגר.
ReplyDeleteI also didn't hear a פסק from הגר״ח קנייבסקי, nor הגר״אל שטיינמאן.
Perhaps. If that is the case why are THEY not being חוזר from their פסק ?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think he hasn't signed ?
ReplyDeleteWhy did Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky not get his heter before proceeding with the adultery? Doesn't this tell you something????
How do you know that Rav dovid Feinstein is not simply seeking a way to save the reputations of the shoppers, and trying to end this quietly?
Do you not think that if רב נטע was mislead, or רב שמואל was mistaken, or the facts were just wrong, that they would not have admitted their mistake??
Well, let me ask you a counter question. If Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky 1) believed that the marriage was non-existent two years ago, and 2) oversaw Tamar shack up with a guy during the Aseres Yemei Teshuva: Why did Rav Shmuel not go into Silver Spring and ensure that the community stop being rodef Ahron? Why???? The community was only rodef ahron with the "siruv" that Rav Shmuel signed. It turns out that even had the original "siruv" been halachacilly correct, it was really a mistake. Supposedly, there never was a marriage!!!!!!
Until you provide a logical satisfactory answer to this question, your "proof" from the fact that Rav Shmuel refuses to retract is meaningless and irrelevant.
Something here is terribly wrong..
True. The stench is emanating from the City of Brotherly Love - Philadelphia.
I am just not sure that there isn't either more to the story, or facts that are not public.
I am!
Salty sent the paragraph awhile back:
ReplyDeleteוע"כ פונה אני אל מעלתכם, אנא תפנו אל הצרה הזאת, אשר לא ייעשה כן
במקומינו, ואין אני מהמקילים ח"ו באיסורי תורה, ובפרט ביאסורי א"א ח"ו,
אבל במקום עיגון התירו חכמים כל מיני התרים, וכאן סמכתי על הכלל הזה
ליכנס במקום מסוכן זה, ולא ח"ו לפסוק הלכה, אלא לבקש ולהתחנן לפני גדולי
עולם אשר בידם להכריע שאלות קשות כאלו, ולהתיר האומללה הזאת מכבלי
העיגון, ולהתירה לינשא כדת משה וישראל
Thanks. That is a nice paragraph, but it would be good to see it in the actual letter.
ReplyDeleteThis completely new to me, haven't seen this before. Can anyone bring up the blog with date where this has first appeared in it's entirety.
ReplyDeleteNow for the beef.
This looks a complete forgery just from the context, mitoicho umigabo.
*וע"כ פונה אני אל מעלתכם, אנא תפנו אל הצרה הזאת,*
After all this shuttling back and forth piecemeal, and after all the haskomas of a Psak having his father allowing to write this in his name, he starts from ADAM, *וע"כ פונה אני אל מעלתכם?* It just doesn't tally!
Here is another one, *ובפרט ביאסורי א"א *, these spelling mistakes have the fingerprints of Nathan of Gaza constantly throwiing in Kupah shel shrotzim levalbel es haSatan.
veod,
*וכאן סמכתי על הכלל הזה*
*ולא ח"ו לפסוק הלכה*
Tartei desosrei!
Haim yad Yoav baemtsa?
Furthermore,
*ולהתירה לינשא כדת משה וישראל*
wouldn't it be appropriate as
* ולהתירה להינשא כדת משה וישראל*
Was this allegedly written up or typed originally and later typed up for clarity by someone translating it?
Why cant Reb Salty procure the original Document in it's entirety in it's original?
Ele shmos hagiborim asher leDovid yosheves tachkemoini... rosh hasholishi hachi nichbod, ne'esfu sham lamilchama, vayhi lohem lesar...vead hshlosho lo ba. Ki *MITZION* teitse Torah, udvar hashem miyerusholoyim. The shloshes hagiborim chacham choroshim have already spoken.
ReplyDeleteYou are mafiach lefi tumoi much too many, and the serach hanoidef from Denmark is looming all the way here. Why don't you marchik dalet amos leachoirov, so that should let you rofl breathe some fresh air.
ReplyDeleteBTW, you speak as though she is a little bit pregnant, is this also from the grapevine. I think you blew it. Tartei mashma.
Here is one example:
ReplyDeleteehud a month ago
Detected as spam Thanks, we'll work on getting this corrected.
Before we continue with this issue, can anyone confirm as to whether the couple indeed live together? Is there a real live person who to talk to?
Mefaresh posted it above that was included in any letter that was sent there is one other nusach that was used but the same message. No reason to post originals because anything posted is said to be a forgery antway. These are the facts. Do your Homework and find anyone that got an original if this was included. There are very obvious reasons why someone would want to take it out ( ie knophler and company) if you are trying to say that the kamenetskys paskened. Reb Nuta got this nusach on every correspondence that was sent.
ReplyDeleteIt was in the original letter the last paragraph which was conveniently omitted. I don't think this changes anyone's position on the validity of the heter. But to have a headline which is patently false is wrong.
ReplyDeleteHe claims this paragraph was removed by a supposedly known forger in Lakewood R Knopfler. He has Beis din in Lakewood that the hanhala of BMG were upset that he set up shop.
ReplyDeleteHe claimed that R Knopfler has forged all the documents. And that R Shlomo Miller, R Feivel Cohen and others are getting their info from this Rav. Therefore everything is false and incorrect.
Just relating what he told me.
What is troubling about that statement "That RNG himself said he was duped" He was the mesader kiddushin why isn't he telling them to separate? obviously there is more to the story of that letter then what is staed in it. The fact is that letter was written for a specific reason which you can call Zucker in the bais horah in lakewood who got the letter from RNG what he told him the purpose of the letter was and what happened a half hour after RNG sent that letter? Unlike the normative procedure I didn't claim it was a forgery I inquired why he wrote it and what was the intent what I found out is different then what you are saying.
ReplyDeleteNo reason to post originals because anything posted is said to be a forgery antway.
ReplyDeleteDo you relize the insanity of this comment? We should trust what you say, despite the fact that you refuse to produce the goods. Well, why don't you want to produce the goods? If you produce the goods, you'll be accused of lying. Nu, and if you don't produce the goods???
A pack full of lies.
I also didn't hear a פסק from הגר״ח קנייבסקי
ReplyDeleteOops!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TqaayViTG1E/VnPMYxteDtI/AAAAAAAAUTI/-9D8hRJ1XJs/s640/Baltimore%2BBeis%2BDin%2Bwith%2BIsraeli%2Brabbonim%2Bsignatures.jpg
Unfortunately Salty did not send me the original. The posted above is what he sent me in an email a while back.
ReplyDeleteKamo shailos bedovor.
ReplyDelete1) Is this about nusach Sefard and Ashkenaz?
2) Like you said, only originals will do, the cut n paste is more noticible.
3) When did RNG get this letter with trailer, before finding out that he was duped or after?
4) When you are markiv the chiger on the Suma, the truth serum works wonders., and then we can discuss about forgeries.
5) These are all luftgesheften, far from facts.
6) There must be a good reason as to why you dare not present the facts dvorim kiksovom.
7) Since you claim these as facts, Krayna deIgarta... is called for
8) I *am* doing my homework with due dilligence, but you are getting cold feet and tole killeloso beacherim [Mefaresh beLa"az], I wonder why?
9) " *ie knophler and company* ", huh?
10) I'd love to see this Nusach on each and every correspondence in it's entirety and full glory, and then I will tell you who paskened.
I also noted that you reply to something that I wrote:
***************
ehud *11 hours ago*
Where is your phantom last paragraph???
*****************
while I have something so much more up to date, *5 Hours ago*, that will explain the ziyuf Kegon:
ehud Mefaresh • 5 hours ago
This is completely new to me, haven't seen this before. Can anyone bring up the blog with date where this has first appeared in it's *entirety*.
Now for the beef.
This looks a complete forgery just from the context, mitoicho umigabo.
*וע"כ פונה אני אל מעלתכם, אנא תפנו אל הצרה הזאת,*
After all this shuttling back and forth piecemeal, and after all the haskomas of a Psak having his father allowing to write this in his name, he starts from ADAM, *וע"כ פונה אני אל מעלתכם?* It just doesn't tally!
Here is another one, *ובפרט ביאסורי א"א *, these spelling mistakes have the fingerprints of Nathan of Gaza bimchilas kvodo constantly throwing in Kupah shel shrotzim levalbel es haSatan.
veod,
*וכאן סמכתי על הכלל הזה*
*ולא ח"ו לפסוק הלכה*
Tartei desosrei! If he is *SOMECH*, then why the CHAS VESHOLOM lifsok ?
Haim yad Yoav baemtsa?
Furthermore,
*ולהתירה לינשא כדת משה וישראל*
wouldn't it be appropriate as
* ולהתירה *להינשא* כדת משה וישראל*
Was this letter allegedly written up and later typed up for clarity by someone translating it?
Why cant Reb Salty procure the original Document in it's entirety in it's original, where we can clearly see the position of this alleged last paragraph he is in so hot pursuit for? Or shall we say, Harotse leshaker yarchik eidusoi.
And here is some more:
What is this business about:
כל
זה נכתב על ידי שלו' קמנצקי
What does this alleged affirmation trying to explain, Huh?
and what is this all about:
והרשה לי לכתוב כן בשמו,
all these are interruptions in midst of letter which has absolutely no explanation.
I therefore put it to you my friend, this stinks to high heaven!!!
see also the diffrence in nuscho'os:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/tamar-epsteins-heter-r-shlomo.html
veisher *osi* lachtom al hadvorim = confirmed ME that * I* sign
vs. *והרשה לי לכתוב כן בשמו* = allowed ME to sign in HIS name.
Hazman yichle vehshkorin lo yichlu!!!
"Hineni mitstaref, vs, hinneni maskim lehitstaref", what is the difference?
Really the post is wrong, and the discussion is off point, besides keeping salty Philly very busy.
ReplyDeleteIt's obvious that RSK was not mattir, even if some of the language may be confusing.
Its also obvious that he was behind the hetter, and without his stature and r sholoms legwork, the better would happened.
What the post could say, is that it's as good as if r Shmuel would have been mattir, and it doesn't matter that he wasn't the actual mattir, since it was all his work that happened.
So although he didn't lie, he was being disingenuous in trying to create the impression that he had nothing to do with ih
RNG indeed was the mesader Kidushin, and when he found out he was duped, he threw the ball back into RSK's court so as to say that his psak was based totally and only because the K's put forth a false and forged claim, therefore he is putting the ACHRAYUS back into their court, by saying the K's have the responsibility to retrieve.
ReplyDeleteWhat is your finding on what the intent was?
I have seen enough of this ping pong game, slick, slip and sliding away. The double talk, having his talmidim "klatch their hands ledaber dvorim acherim e.g. how big of gedoilim they are" etc. patting themselves on their backs, but not own up to anything. In the beginning I didn't want to believe such, but by now I am convinced *tot zicher* bimlo muven hamila. They are kidding around with sarfei ma'alo and it ain't going to end up pretty at all. They will pay very dearly R'L' for all this.
ReplyDeleteIt is called a Migu! Why do I need to produce the goods in order to disprove me, if I'm already disproven, hevanta? A gevaldige chidush.
ReplyDeleteFull disclosure. I have nothing to do with salty in anyway. A while back i pushed him for details to some claims he made on this site. The above text is what he produced as proof of forgery. Only now that it was being explicitly discussed did I decide to post the "missing paragraph"
ReplyDeleteI didn't see him doing it and if what he claims is true it should be public knowledge
למי אוי למי אבוי למי מדינים למי שיח למי פצעים חנם. כי חנם מזורה הרשת בעיני כל בעל כנף לא תגלה כנף אביו מקלל אביו ואמו גוזל אביו ואמו ואומר אין פשע חבר הוא לאיש משחית גם מתרפה במלאכתו אח הוא לבעל משחית ? ויש להקשות למה גוזל נקרא חבר ובמתרפה נקרא אח ? ולמה גוזל חבר לבעל משחית , ומתרפה אח לאיש משחית ? ועל איזה משחית מדברים ??? והנראה לענ״ד דמשחית דקרא היינו נואף ונואף נקרא משחית והדא הוא דכתיב נואף אשה חסר לב משחית נפשו הוא יעשנה . והנראה דמשחית חסר לב וכן גוזל אב ואם אין לו לב . ומתרפה במלאכתו נמי אין לו לב. דאם היה לו לב לא היה מתרפה. ולעניינינו איש משחית הוא הנואף , בעל משחית הוא בעל האשה הנואפת דגם אשה נואפת היא משחית והדברים מובנים ליודעי בינה.
ReplyDeleteאחרי כל הדברים והאמת האלה נראה לי כמו שאמר אהוד. אוי ואבוי. Whoever was Matir this woman made a huge mistake. I think רב נטע, was duped, and used.
ReplyDeleteלהתיר א״א לשוק בלי גט??????
I think people should not withhold גיטין, שלא יהיו בנות ישראל הפקר, לקיים מה שנאמר גרש לץ ויצא מדון וישבות דין וקלון.
והיה אם לא תמצא חן בעיניו וכתב לה ספר כריתות ונתן בידה
This is crazy stuff Ehud Ben Gera. צדק ממני. צר לי עליך מאד אחי ועל בית ישראל כי נבלה נעשתה בישראל וכן לא יעשה!!!
His very name shows his intent. Salty is s synonym for argumentative. As I've noted before, his theme some is sung by Groucho Marx in Horsefeathers.
ReplyDeletewww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DDtMV44yoXZ0&usg=AFQjCNGLZTsJNjergO3EuLz6kohr9hmpow&sig2=tK38R-xho9yPMAFxuFl02A
1) No, After RNG said he would be matir but not himself there were other people that received the information. In any correspondence if it was faxed or emailed the last paragraph was sent along.
ReplyDelete2) There is nothing more in the original beides that last paragraph.
3)In the original question to him it was part and parcel of the shailah.
4)Whatever
5)Your opinion
6) these are the facts as I stated them not sure what isnt fact.
7) Google translate didnt work please expound on what you are looking for "Krayna deIgarta... "
8) I happen to have been traveling and did not respond in a timely fasion as you want. When I came back I saw that Mefaresh had posted it so there was no need for me to do it. And as Mefaresh testified this was something I sent him awhile back to show the corruption of those that whole purpose is to discredit the Kamenetskys.
9) A known corrupt beis din and individual that when you have a doubt about a document you can suspect that he was involved in its corruption. Look at the 2 letters that have Reb Chaim's Signature one has a space on the left middle then the other one is the exact letter besides a whole paragraph by knophler he added it at his convenience.
10) I don't have every single correspondence but the few I saw have it and know one has denied that it was there.
As far as your questions on the actual nusach you will have to ask these questions to Reb Sholom why does it look like a fake why didn't he check his grammer and all the other questions you have on the dikduk of the last paragraph. I am presenting to you the facts that he specifically wrote that he wasn't paskening but asking for him/them to pasken. The writer of this guest post has not responded or corrected his statement that anyone who doubts the Kamenetskys gave the heter, here are the facts is patently false.
Good Morning America!
ReplyDelete......never mind me, just a bit frustrated. ..
Sagey nuh = Blind
ReplyDeleteHonesty = Shakrein
I am not sure if you noticed I haven't respond to your posts since they are useless, without substances or merit go back to LV and protest outside the YI there with Asher Kaufman.
In the last paragraph that RKS makes an effort to specify that he is not making any psak halacha, how do you add up RNG replying I am mitstaref / maskim to be mitstaref, don't you see how this whole thing stinks to high heaven. On second thought, chaval al hazman
ReplyDeletePlease translate "כל מיני התרים"
ReplyDeleteI have seen an original that ends with this paragraph.
ReplyDeleteI am not sure if you noticed I haven't respond to your posts since they are useless
ReplyDeleteClearly, it is worthwhile for you not respond to my comments - since your pack full of lies are indeed useless. Just like the adultery that your family has sanctioned, it can only exist in secrecy. When the truth comes out in the open, you'll be forced to deal with reality, admit mistakes, and seek to completely submit yourself to Hashem's wishes. This is something you are simply unwilling to do.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/08/seminary-scandal-why-r-harry-maryles-is.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/seminary-scandal-joe-mccarthy-also-had.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/rivky-stein-yoel-weiss-big-lie-that-2.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/08/seminary-scandal-fanstastical-rico-by.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/07/rivky-stein-yoel-weiss-forgery-in-name.html
Horrid grammar, horrid logic disastrous Hebrew, sounds like shalom fits very well with his other letters.just don't ask me to make sense of it.
ReplyDeleteReminds me of a very learned conservative rabbi, who won't lick the envelope till he feels he made a good impression.incredible am haaratzus won't even contemplate how foolish he sounds.
ReplyDeleteIf you are not sure she is pregnant then don't start spreading rumors.
ReplyDeleteThanks.
ReplyDeleteYou are not correct. The concept of majority rule applies only to a body of poskim that sit and deliberate together and issue a ruling. It doesn't make any difference how any people disagree with a pesak.
ReplyDeleteWho was it sent to and at what point was the letter with this paragraph sent?
ReplyDeleteI didn't write this. Just copied and pasted from an email correspondence between me and salty.
ReplyDeleteBut I think it can be translated as "a variety of heterim" or all sorts of heterim.
Sorry, but this kind of expression is unbecoming. * ולהתיר האומללה הזאת מכבלי העיגון,*
ReplyDeleteThis again sounds like Nathan miGaza. He is a Taus Sofer.
The more time that passes by, the more I think this R Dovid's meeting to settle this matter is a Bobe maiseh. What is the mekor anyway. We should have heard something by now. The reason we did not is because lo haya velo nivra. Another ploy of stalling and playing the public. It is time for the Scuds to enter again into the theater.
ReplyDeleteSalty's Song sung by GROUCHO MARX
ReplyDeleteI'm Against It -- lyrics
I don't know what they have to say,
It makes no difference anyway,
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
No matter what it is or who commenced it,
I'm against it.
Your proposition may be good,
But let's have one thing understood,
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
And even when you've changed it or condensed it,
I'm against it.
I'm opposed to it,
On general principle, I'm opposed to it.
....
Whatever it is, I'm against it.
And I've kept yelling since I first commenced it,
I'm against it!
That would be rather Heteirim, not hatorim. I think Salty is a ben gilo for Nathan hoazosi, he seems to be the shliach levalbel and mother of all 'ligners' shkarim.
ReplyDeleteAre the boel and the zona still together?
ReplyDeleteDid you see an original that one of the recipients let out, or was it an original that was let out Mr. Salty?
ReplyDeleteIt was sent to a rav to get him to work on a heter. It was sent 2-3 years ago.
ReplyDeleteMan, are you rude.
ReplyDeleteI don't think you meant horsefeathers.
ReplyDeleteI never really was too hopeful about it to begin with, hence I am less anxious. ...
ReplyDeletePhilly Woman:
ReplyDeleteYou asked "Why is Rav Kamanetzky not running to publicly clear her name if she is indeed innocent. Why does he not place a public kol koireh to vanquish the fires of accusations against her?"
He has said, and written, explicitly, that R' Nota is a bar samcha. What would a kol koreh do (besides for stir things up some more)?
Sometimes you gotta say it like it is (when the Politically Correct version doesn't help get the point across. .) Guess, honesty can sometimes run into rudeness.....
ReplyDeleteHe holds that this area of halacha is not one he is comfortable paskening on. I'm sure he knows his capabilities better then we do.
ReplyDeleteHe holds R' Nota is a bar samcha.
So what would you like him to do?
Misrepresent what he holds and say she's assur even if he doesn't hold that way because he's not ready to pasken?
Misrepresent what he holds and say she's mutar even if he doesn't hold that way because he's not ready to pasken?
He holds neither. He holds that he simply doesn't know because this is not his area to pasken. He also holds R' Nota is a bar samcha. And that is what he has said. Explicitly.
What do you want from the man?
Thank you.
ReplyDeleteYou're entitled to your opinion.
ReplyDeleteHe also holds R' Nota is a bar samcha.
ReplyDeleteI understand. He supposedly holds that Rav Notta is a bar samcha, to the exclusion of all the other poskim. The only problem is, he had colluded with his son in seeking out other poskim to be matir, way before he ever approached Rav Notta.
Please answer: Do you believe that he approached people whom he felt were not bnei samcha? He obviously did feel that they were reliable; that's why he approached them. Now, granted that he probably concluded that they were not reliable once they refused his heter - but they had originally been reliable in his eyes. This being the case, how does he feel comfortable relying on a person who he knows his son misled? A person, who explicitly wrote that he was only matir due to the info his son wrote him (which have been verified to be false)?
One more thing: If he is not comfertable paskening in this realm, why did he allow his son to write that he agrees with the heter? Why did he make phone calls trying to convince poskim to go along with his "heter?"
I am saying it's not even taking place, bloff, bliff, mebulefet.
ReplyDeleteHakol shkarim. This was not there originally. It was adjoined at a later date, so as to make the letter of Meolam lo hitarti *bechayay* blah... blah... blah... more genuine. In who's chayay? paroh's chayay? Sorry, but adding it afterwards contradicts the original and it stinks, not only in Denmark but all over the Kadur haAretz. Time to reign in.
ReplyDeleteThat's another reason why everyone displays the addendum separately, by calling it *The last Paragraph*, because when posted as a unit the ZIYUF is very obvious. It takes on a 180. Enough, I don't believe anything anymore. Yallah, nimasta
And who coaxed RNG to be *mitztaref* for a Heter? And What about leolam yapil es atzmo lekivshon hoesh veal yachlim....ma tehe oleho? They left a big stench 12 on the Richter scale while running for their lives, and poor her is suffocating left holding the bag.
ReplyDeleteWant him to fess up! He suckered in RNG, and for the life of him, trying to make it look as if it's in totto Bar Samcha's doing. A hit n run.
ReplyDeleteThis became the sod of the Century.
ReplyDeleteYou're right. It's two words, Horse Feathers
ReplyDeleteBut I must give you credit for the rare but proper usage of "you're" and "your" in one comment.
ReplyDeleteI still don't think he meant feathers.
ReplyDeleteVery sweet. Thank you.
ReplyDeleteIt's the title of a classic Marx Brothers movie.
ReplyDeleteIt's a fertilzer common in Central Park.
ReplyDeleteNo. Carriage horses have diapers.
ReplyDeleteThat's for toddler ponies only. What about elephant feathers, and I don't mean feathers? In the circus, the butlers have a hard time catching up with the shovelings. Ringling bros. has something similar to a snow blower or they wear earplugs.
ReplyDelete"He supposedly holds that Rav Notta is a bar samcha, to the exclusion of all the other poskim."
ReplyDeleteWhat makes you think that? He holds the family has a right to be someich on R Nota. Even though others are also reliable poskim, you aren't mechuyav to go with them lissur.
"(which have been verified to be false)"
Which info was verified as false? That a Dr. said he had a personality disorder?
"One more thing: If he is not comfertable paskening in this realm, why did he allow his son to write that he agrees with the heter? Why did he make phone calls trying to convince poskim to go along with his "heter?"
There is a world of difference between arguing for a point of view and actually paskening. One of them is perfectly fine for anyone to do, posek or not. The other is strictly in the realm of psak. It's like talking about the benefits of doing an investment vs actually putting the $ down.
I thought this blog was for discussion of bovine excrement not equine? :)
ReplyDeleteMake that male bovine excrement ;)
ReplyDeleteFalse. He accepted only that went along with him. He din't ask for eitzos, he GAVE eitzos. Remember, VEHITZA'ATI ....
ReplyDeleteTo stop getting involved in other people's lives and suddenly back out the minute he realizes there is more to the picture....
ReplyDeleteThis is NOT the first case Rav Shmuel has done this. He gives his opion, aitza, pesak, whatever u want to call it, and suddenly when he is called out on various facts in the equation he was not aware of before talking, he suddenly says "I did not know that. Ok, I am no longer getting involved, let someone else handle it."
Words are like shot arrows. They were already released. It is too late to take them back.
I releat, this is NOT the first time Rav Shmuel has backed out of a situation he had previously mendled in when he realized there were facts he was missing.
And his involment caused separation between family in the past as well.
Ironic, how the bar samche relied on the convoluted advise of Rav Shmuel. Maybe the Rav can clear up exactly what the advise the bar samche relied on that caused him to give such a controversial ruling. The bar samche doesn't know Tamar or Aaron from Adam (really, no pun intended), the bar samchae went off his advise from the Kamanetzkys.....
ReplyDeleteIt's like Joel cheating his paper, getting a 100 on his theis and then claiming, my teacher is smart, he's seen me write before, he should have known I cheated.
I am not aware of their private sleeping arrangements.
ReplyDeleteThank you for answering.
ReplyDeleteI didn't mean it in that way. I was wondering if they completely had separated. I guess that the answer is no.
I heard from a pretty reliable source that hinei hara liznunim.
ReplyDeleteWow! Are you certain that it is not just a ploy by RSK jr. to try to get RDF to find a way to turn this into a mamzer sofeik - which will help the Ks save face and be able to have a way of saying that they were right and that the heter was legit? Someone linked to this:
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/02/kaminetsky-greenblatt-heter-will-rav.html#comment-2528436155
I can't imagine who was the only Rabbi who advised her to attempt to conceive prior to the outcome of the storm. I have reason to assume that it was not Rabbi Greenblatt.
If this is true, it is truly sad. Who can imagine what life would be like for this kid?
I don't know anything other than what I heard. Could be false.
ReplyDeleteSo now you magnified the problem, from eishes ish to mamzerus R'L' as well. In any case, I need to see the *original* tshuva in Sefer of R' A. Eiger, not from a sipur. Besides, there it was an issue of an innocent mistake and here it was bezadon with falsifying records and eidus sheker meyesodo umeikro, and all this publicity will bring bigger pirtzos of which is bad enough as it is without further destruction, and more chullul haShem. Neisei sefer venechze, then we'll talk.
ReplyDelete