Ultra-Orthodox Knesset members Monday boycotted the swearing-in ceremony of new Likud MK Amir Ohana, the party's first openly gay parliamentarian.
Ohana has entered parliament after Vice Prime Minister Silvan Shalom resigned amid allegations of sexual misconduct.
“I am here with all of who I am and what I am, what I’ve chosen and what I haven’t, and am proud of this: Jewish, Israeli, Mizrahi, gay, Likudnik, security-ist, liberal and a free-market-economy man,” Ohana said.
He said that as a Likud member he was sometimes considered a settler, and he was sometimes considered a Mizrahi, a Jew with roots in Muslim countries. [...]
Ohana has entered parliament after Vice Prime Minister Silvan Shalom resigned amid allegations of sexual misconduct.
“I am here with all of who I am and what I am, what I’ve chosen and what I haven’t, and am proud of this: Jewish, Israeli, Mizrahi, gay, Likudnik, security-ist, liberal and a free-market-economy man,” Ohana said.
He said that as a Likud member he was sometimes considered a settler, and he was sometimes considered a Mizrahi, a Jew with roots in Muslim countries. [...]
ln an unusual step, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu attended the ceremony and gave his blessing from the Knesset podium.
“I want to make a clear point that may not be clear. Amir is the first clear, candid representative of the gay community who was elected in an open primary when he was completely out [of the closet]. He was elected by thousands of voters in the Likud primary,” Netanyahu said.
“Amir represents very well our view of liberal nationalism. He believes in the rights of the Jewish people in their land, in protecting the country’s security, civil rights, capitalist economics and a free market.” [...]
“I want to make a clear point that may not be clear. Amir is the first clear, candid representative of the gay community who was elected in an open primary when he was completely out [of the closet]. He was elected by thousands of voters in the Likud primary,” Netanyahu said.
“Amir represents very well our view of liberal nationalism. He believes in the rights of the Jewish people in their land, in protecting the country’s security, civil rights, capitalist economics and a free market.” [...]
A source in United Torah Judaism said the party was not as enthused. “The UTJ Knesset members did not leave the Knesset hall demonstrably, they simply were not enthusiastic to enter,” he said. “There is no decision not to cooperate with him. A few [ultra-Orthodox] MKs went up to Ohana after the swearing-in and congratulated him.”
The UTJ seems to be in line with some Torah concepts , e.g. the issur of mishkav zachar. However, those from the Eda, who do not recognize the Knesset, had their own political leader, Dr Yaakov de Haan, who was also a "gadol" in the gay community.
ReplyDeleteIt was silly of UTJ to boycott. The chance to see a prominent gay politician who's avidly right wing is rare enough to qualify for some kind of Shechechiyanu.
ReplyDeleteHe should join the NYS legislature. Or the NYC council.
ReplyDeleteAs long as he provide$, the NY version of UTJ / whatever doe$nt mind
At least he won't be harassing any women like Silvan Sholom did.
ReplyDeleteOr משנה הבריות
ReplyDeleteThey did not boycott him. This is simply the spin of Haaretz. they just weren't there for the swearing in ceremony, just as they have skipped other swearing in ceremonies. Big deal.
ReplyDeleteSometimes I forget that my sarcasm doesn't come across so well on Disqus
ReplyDeleteGarnel's criticism was baseless, but your response was disgusting. Yes, he follows a lifestyle we do not approve of, but after al the religious persecution jews have gone through over the centuries in the name of religion, I don't understand how any jew can practice religious intolerance.
ReplyDelete“I am here with all of who I am and what I am, what I’ve chosen and what
ReplyDeleteI haven’t, and am proud of this: Jewish, Israeli, Mizrahi, gay,
Likudnik, security-ist, liberal and a free-market-economy man,” Ohana
said.
Wow. Mamash an איש האשכולות. Surprised he doesn't claim to be a gadol hador too.
?
ReplyDeleteDo you also oppose persecuting those having sex with children? Do you oppose persecuting those with the religious practice of human sacrifice? Homosexuality should be illegal and the act should be prosecuted. Do you support permitting naked people to roam down your neighborhood streets?
ReplyDeleteHe should end up with the punishment the Torah perscribes for his act.
ReplyDeleteComparing homosexuality pedophilia and murder? Not everything the torah condemns ought to be illegal in in a democratic society. Do you think that blasphemy should also be prosecuted? Perhaps look into Iraq, there seems to be alot of empty real estate ever since religious intolerance has been let loose there. Maybe you will feel comfortable in that community...
ReplyDeleteThe Torah does condemn the act, but the belief of the Spanish who kicked our fathers out of Spain in the 1400s also had what they believed to be god on their side.
ReplyDeleteSo what? The Christians and Muslins and Budhists and Hindus do not have G-d on their side and we do. We know that and that's all that counts as far as we are concerned and how we act and look at the world, irregardless of the false religions who think otherwise.
ReplyDeleteHomosexuality is worse than pedophili. The former is capital offense while the latter is not.
ReplyDeleteEmes, your comment does not conform to the Emes of the Torah.
ReplyDeleteTo a Torah Jew, Garnel's response is bizarre, and משנה הבריות reflects the attitude that homosexuality is unnatural behavior.
Homosexuality isn't a religion, and our unwillingness to honor a practitioner of perversion isn't a sign of religious intolerance.
Part of our freedoms of speech and religion, is the right to honor those we feel are deserving of honor. A person who has chosen to actively make an agenda of making a mockery of the Torah's prohibition against homosexuality, is hardly worthy of our respect (let alone the fabricated obligation of the recitation of the Shechechiyanu blessing).
but what if by making leitzanus you are also, among other things, perpetrating a massive chillul hashem?
ReplyDeleteSociety can not exist if only your beliefs mater, the Muslim we all understand can not act on his belief and kill all those who mock Mohammad, He too thinks his belief is the only true one. yet society mandates that he live in piece with his neighbor.
ReplyDeleteDoubt anyone that understands my comment to be bothered by it.
ReplyDeleteAnd what is the Chillul Hashem?
Why does that phrase get thrown around so easily.
I have a hard time understand how making leitzanus on תועבה is a חילול השם. What is the definition. To be מחלל desecrate השם G-d. There is no bigger חילול השם than the "Jewish state" has a תועבה
Al pi torah yes. Unfortunately we dont yet have the freedom to create a society which functions so. Until then we are stuck living amongst umos ha'olam and if you preach intolerance thats all you will be left with for yourself. When in Rome...not because its correct but because it affords us the ability to say, do and believe as we want.
ReplyDeleteYou can't make a Chilul HaShem by upholding the Torah (or protesting aishes ish). A bit surprised that Elchanan is not complaining here about misusing of that term (save the prior parentheses). I can certainly use his services here....
ReplyDeleteNo reason to rehash the argument, although I was waiting for someone to try. I think we all can agree that making fun of toevah is not a chilul hashem. The same way one can ridicule other the other toeivah (avodah zarah ie. merchatz shel aphroditi).
ReplyDeleteI shouldn't have addressed this issue because having a dialogue with people I think have bigotted views never tends to result in a rational discussion and, as such, are discussions I would prefer to avoid. However, I will address this issue one last time.
ReplyDeleteWe need to be respectful even of those who we disagree with. We also need to understand that as much as we believe in God and believe that his commandments must be followed, many decent human beings don't follow halacha. We may and should disagree strongly with their decision and should not honor them if doing so could be interpreted as honoring the aveirah, but we should certainly not denigrate them personally. As a separate note, homosexuality is assur not because it is "unnatural" (in fact it is quite natural because God placed that into the teva) and not because it is "disgusting" (as many straight people often react), but it is assur because God said so, just like we may not be mechalel shabbos or say lashon hara, etc. I hesitate to say this, because I think this is more complicated of an issue than I can capture in one short statement - but on a simplistic basis, to some degree, if your reaction to Gay people is different than your reaction to someone who is mechalel shabbos or speaks lashon hara or is not honest in business (I'm sure you would not suggest that we say meshaneh habriyos on balei lashon hara or shady business people) then your reaction is not based on the Torah or God, but on bigotry. And I can think of no greater chilul hashem than using the Torah or God to express bigotry.
All this because of my sarcastic comment? It was a JOKE! For crying out loud...
ReplyDeleteYou know what you're all missing? At the next government meeting, these same UTJ MK's will sit with the new guy in Likud. And if Bibi makes him a minister of some importance and UTJ discovers they need his help for something of importance to them they will suddenly discover they can stay in the same room as him without bursting into flames.
Really? You rank the severity of mitzvos based on Olam Hazeh punishments?
ReplyDeleteThis sordid affair, of appointing an openly homosexual man following on the heels of the resignation of a minister after a huge sex scandal, and then Netanyahu crowing and the Likud celebrating is reminiscent of that old saying: "The 'good news' is that the operation was a success, the bad news is that the patient died!"
ReplyDeleteWith this one stroke, Netanyau has finally made sure that his current coalition with the Charedim that was successfully put together against all odds, is now officially on life-support if not dead in the water, a dead letter, and just over and out. The grave has been dug, the body is in it, now all that is needed is the burial and putting up the Matzeiva. The only question is who will have the nerve to tell Netanyahu that his day has come and gone and he needs to retire because he has lost all moral vision, that is if he ever had any in the first place.
Any day now the current coalition must come crashing down because it is impossible HKB"H could be "happy" with such things!
Netanyahu has now CLEARLY betrayed his mission and he must go!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi8HzpBIDaY
Toevah is natural? because Hashem put it into teva?
ReplyDeletewhere am I?
What has happened to our people?
The Gemara does that as well.
ReplyDeleteThere are numerous times the torah uses the word toeivah - please consult your chumash. The ta'avah for Avodah Zarah was not considered unnatural. Are using faulty weights an unnatural ta'avah? Is eating non-kosher species also unnatural? Sacrificing an animal with a blemish? What does it have to do with unnatural? Please provide a source if you are going to claim that any to'evah is an unnatural inclination, simply because the torah refers to it as a to'evah.
ReplyDeleteThe seforim hakedoshim throughout the generations call homosexuality a most ville and depraved behavior and toeiva. Much more so than the vast majority of other sins.
ReplyDeleteIt was a joke . I am not sure making a joke about when to say a brocho is a wise thing to do, but that was his joke.
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe Feinstein is very clear that homosexuality is inherently disgusting and it is important to retain that disgust
ReplyDeleteMany toevaot are "natural" - chazir, sheretz, swarming insects , are all natural, as is menstrual blood, and other issurim.
ReplyDeleteI can't remember the soruce of the quote, but the rabbanim say we should not say we avoid aveirot becasue they are bad (eg pork) but becasue we are commanded not to do it.
On the other hand, the Torah specifically calls mishkav zachar a Toevah. hence there is a limitation to that concept.
I'm referring to homosexual but in the desire for lashon nekiyah I use toevah.
ReplyDeleteI'm not referring to bugs.
The rambans explanation in parshas nitzavim may lead one to beleive otherwise. Its comparable to all taavos that overindulgence leads to new taavos. He is speaking of all taavos and compares arayos of homosexuality and bestiality. Even you claim from RMF in no way does prove that this implied from the fact that it is referred to as toevah.
ReplyDeleteThe Torah says we take stones and throw them at those convicted of homosexuality until they are dead.
ReplyDeleteit is Rav Moshe Feinstein claim
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2009/03/homosexuality-view-of-rav-moshe.html
Nowhere is this claimed in the part of the tshuvo that you cited. Perhaps elswhere. Either way the ramban seems to disagree (i do remember having an issue reconciling RMF understanding with the Rambans but I have not seen the tshuvo in many years).
ReplyDeleteYou are correct, male anal sex, performed in front of two witnesses who had duly warned the perpetrators of the severity of their intended action, carries the death penalty of סקילה.
ReplyDeleteHowever our Sages, in an oral tradition from Sinai, teach us that the method you describe, is not how how סקילה is administered.
Don't know what you are talking about. He makes it very clear that homosexuality is inherently disgusting. Elsewhere he says one can't give any explanation for it that would remove the natural disgust towards it.
ReplyDeleteMy comments center around tje idea that it is unmatural - not whether iths disgusting. I dont see RMF saying that - at least in the part you quoted. Saying that its inherently disgusting is quite vague and can allude to a variety of reasons (that it runs contrary to societal norms). Im just curious - are you familiar with anything but RMF's? You do realize that the world didn't start and end with his perspective.
ReplyDeletePlease explain how you deduced that its not natural.
ReplyDeleteYou mean the homosexual is first thrown off a building. Only then, if he survived the fall, is he stoned by the people.
ReplyDeletewww.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot
ReplyDeleteFull Definition of bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
As a Torah Jew, I obstinately attempt to model my world view based on the absolute אמת revealed by Hashem in his Torah. Does that make me a bigot?
As a Torah Jew, I'm intolerant of attempts made to rationalize behavior which the Torah regards as sinful.
Does that make me a bigot?
I don't hate people who transgress the Torah, but I try to avoid being associated with them (אל תתחבר לרשע), and I try not to honor them if I can avoid it (חנופה). Does that make me a bigot?
On a final note, I'll leave you with a challenge. Without going into personal details, please describe the last time you fulfilled one of the following verses?
1) אוהבי ה' שנאו רע
2) רק בעיניך תביט ושילומת רשעים תראה
3) באבוד רשעים רינה
4) תועבת ה' כל גבה לב
Are we talking about RMF or RaMBaN?
ReplyDeleteNot only is there "nittel", there is also "Britell", ie Yashke's alleged bris would be 8 days after nittel, which is New year's , 31st of Dec.
ReplyDeleteIs there any such corresponding Jewish "brittel" where Chassidim refrain from learning etc?
Define natural
ReplyDeleteYou keep moving the goal posts
ReplyDeletewhich is why I qualified my post by saying that "I hesitate to say this, because I think this is more complicated of an issue than I can capture in one short statement" - but nonetheless I don't believe that distinction fully differentiates between how we respond to people who transgress different aveiros.
ReplyDeleteLet me give an example, would you make a bracha meshaneh habrios on someone who has homosexual feelings but fully observes halacha and does not act on those feelings?
ReplyDeletehttp://lmgtfy.com/?q=Define+natural#
ReplyDeleteDo you have the same reaction to someone who eats bugs, has relations with a Nidah or a non-Jew? The torah uses the term Toevah for all of them.
ReplyDeleteHow about someone who is haughty? Consider the following quote from Orchos Tzadikim:
"תועבת ה' כל גבה לב" (משלי טז, ה); והוא נמסר ביד יצרו, כי אין עזר השם עמו, אחרי אשר הוא תועבת השם. ואפילו לא נתגאה על שום אדם לא בדבור ולא במעשה, אך בלבו לבד הוא מתגאה, נקרא תועבה, שנאמר: "תועבת ה' כל גבה לב" - אפילו אין לו גבהות אלא בלב נקרא תועבה.
Or how many times have you sat comfortably in your shul and listened to a toevah based on the Pasuk in Mishli that says:
מסיר אזנו, משמע תורה-- גם תפלתו, תועבה.
Yes it is assur and it is a toevah and we should not be apologetic of that in any way - but if you were to give this some honest self-critical thought, I think you will find that the toevah you are observing is along the same lines of:
כי לא יוכלון המצרים לאכל את-העברים לחם, כי-תועבה הוא למצרים
And many other aveiros as well. So using faulty weights, eating pesulei hamukdashin, using an esnan zoneh and serving idols are also not natural?
ReplyDeleteyou have in one stroke of a pen, rehabilitated all those who have persecuted jews over the centuries in the name of religion as now they were only in error about what is the true religion but not inherently morally corrupt and disgusting people.
ReplyDeleteIt was a joke. I wasn't stating that one is mechuyav to make a brocho on a homo. It's called a joke. Akin to Purim Torah.
ReplyDeleteHomosexuality is not natural. Is it natural to kill oneself? Humans have an inherent NATURAL need to self preserve and perpetuate. Homosexuality does not perpetuate the human race. Thus the act is an unnatural endeavor.
That's not bigotry. It's common sense. Which I guess is not common anymore.
Here the Meshech Chochma describes Judaism as unnatural while idol worship is natural
ReplyDeleteMeshech Chochma (Shemos 12:21): It is said about the Jews that they are believers the descendants of believers (Shabbos 97a). However Taanis (5b) notes that non Jews have stronger religious beliefs than Jews - even when their religion is utter nonsense. “The Kittites worship fire and the Kedarites worship water, and even though they know that water can put out fire they have not yet changed their gods but My people hath changed their G d for that which doth not profit.” And even if you want to answer that the faith that is being praised, is believing in things that will happen in the future such as the resurrection of the dead - non Jews also have strong faith in events that will happen in the future. To explain the distinction between Jewish and non Jewish faith, one must note that the appreciation of things such as love, beauty and power are all inherent in a person. The ancient peoples sanctified all these natural powers and placed high value on them and described them as resulting from specific gods. Thus they had a god of beauty, a god of power and a god of love as is well known. A person who personified one of these natural attributes was described as a godly person. Even today, the peoples of the world make images and sanctify these tangible - directly experienced characteristics. Even the Moslems have sanctified the grave of their savior in Mecca and done other things. Consequently, we see that the emotions and senses directly support their faith which is built upon experience and imagery. Thus, non Jewish religious faith is essentially just an extension of natural emotion. That is not how G d conceives religious faith…. In fact, all tangible existence is totally separate from the one Creator. All this is such pure abstract intellectual awareness that Chovas HaLevavos (1:2 Shaar HaYichud) asserts that true service of G d is for either the philosopher or prophet. Nevertheless, all Jews - even without reaching the levels of prophets or even philosophers - truly believe in these pure abstract thoughts of His existence and His unity and they scoff at all that which is entirely based upon natural emotional experience. They understand that faith based entirely on innate human feelings and thoughts is worthless and transient representing only conjecture - G d in the image of man. This is why Chazal state, “How did the Jews merit to recite the Shema which extols the unitary of G d? Because they were descendants of Abraham, Yitzchok and Yaakov.” Because of this knowledge gained from their forefathers - Jews understand this profound abstract philosophical issue and scorn emotion based faith...
The Ramban proves just the opposite. Overindulgence causes sickness, is sickness (of course to some degree more than others).
ReplyDeleteThank You again Elchanan
Eating bugs or relations with a nidda or goy don't carry the death penalty as homosexuality does.
ReplyDeleteYes eating bugs is disgusting. See makos 23b
ReplyDeleteYes
Yes and
Yes
This reminds me that I once heard that an uncle of mine was a chazzan in a kehilla in England, say 70-80 years ago and had a beard. He encountered severe opposition from the congregants that having a beard was a Chilul HaShem.
ReplyDeleteBefore the war in Eastern Europe, one of the antisemitic laws was not to put on tefillin in the train because it was immoral to reveal one's arm.
Someone related to me a story that he was walking in the street on Shabbos in his tallis and someone driving by screamed out "Chilul HaShem". Not everything is Chilul HaShem, call in Elchanan quick! .....
Ah....come on,
ReplyDelete....and I was waiting for you!
He wasn't born on "nittel" anyway. It's a bunch of baloney. Lo Dubim velo ya'ar. I think they took Dec 25 because it was similar to Kislev 25.
ReplyDeleteUntil just a short while ago, they were known as queers.
ReplyDeleteYes, all this because of your comment. There you go, The power of words for you! And as far as that MK fella, with the power of our words of tefillah, he'll also be gone.with our words of macha'ah, G-d Help that the corrupt piskei din will also be gone. ...all with the power of *words*...
ReplyDeleteNo. He isn't thrown off a building. He's thrown from a platform that's twice his height, in a manner that should make him land on his chest, which is intended to cause him to die. In the event that he survives, a very heavy boulder is then placed on chest, which will finish him off.
ReplyDeleteOn second thought, I think you are right that your view is not bigotry but rather is the result of an infantile understanding of the issur.
ReplyDeleteMy last word on this is that the Brisker Rov was known to be adamantly opposed to religious zionism but yet not that adamant about expressing his objection to many issurim going on in Israel in his days. He explained the difference in his reaction that issurim are issurim and doesn't always warrant a public objection, but religious zionism in his view was a ziyyuf haTorah and thus warranted extra vigilance. From that perspective there is a greater need to object to some of the views you've expressed on this blog than on what MK Ohana does.
they are all phenomena that occur in nature
ReplyDeletesome people eat blood with their meat, so the "natural" label doesn't make something good or kosher
They took Dec. 25 because there was a Roman pagan holiday on that date and they wanted to convert the Romans to Christianity so they said, hey, we have a holiday the same day so join us!
ReplyDeleteYou are dead wrong and could not be more wrong. And especially to shlep the holy Brisker Rov into your objectionable view l'chol hadeios. The Brisker Rov would doubtless be on the forefront of opposing these reshoim gemurim. If they were "simply" practicing homosexuality behind closed doors it might be one thing; but these perverts are pushing, yes pushing, homosexuality on society and shoving their immorals down everyone's throughts in demanding recognition, normalization and respect for their deviant, immoral and ungodly behavior.
ReplyDeleteThat demands protest in the strongest terms and fighting back against these deviants and pointing out their sickness and evil.
And if that didn't do it, they threw stones onto him.
ReplyDeleteSo your quoting the brisker Rav to say that making fun of toevah is wrong and a Chillul Hashem...???
ReplyDeleteTalk about a ziyuf hatorah.
Wow, Hatzlacha.
I honestly hope for your sake you realize how ludicrous that is.
The stoning was then done by the general public viewing the homosexual's execution, correct?
ReplyDeleteAgain, you cite things that have no connection to the topic being discussed, but distort them enough to try and extrapolate something. The meshech chochmah is differentiating between the faith of umos ha'olam which is based on subjective/experiential phenomena in nature that elicit emotion as opposed to belief in HKB"H which is purely intellectual and wholly objective. Nowhere does he say that the latter form of belief is unnatural.
ReplyDeleteWithout getting into the etzem hainyan, I believe there are a number of shibushim in what you're quoting from the Brisker Rov. Once you're bringing in the Brisker Rov, you have to be held accountable to Brisker standards...
ReplyDeleteIn that vein, without recounting the errors, I will simply ask, what's your source on this?
Please don't put your own words into the Ramban.
ReplyDeleteוהטעם, כי נפש האדם הרוה, שאיננה מתאוה לדברים הרעים לה, כאשר תבא בלבו קצת התאוה והוא ימלא תאותו אז יוסיף בנפשו תאוה יתירה, ותהיה צמאה מאד לדבר ההוא שאכל או שעשה יותר מבראשונה, ותתאוה עוד לדברים רעים שלא היתה מתאוה להם מתחלה; כי המתאוה לזמת הנשים היפות, כשיהיה שטוף בזמתן, תבואהו תאוה לבוא על הזכר ועל הבהמה וכיוצא בזה בשאר התאוות, וכענין שהזכירו חכמים (סוכה נב, א): "משביעו רעב מרעיבו שבע".
ולכך יאמר הכתוב בהולך בשרירות לבו שהוא, אם ימלא נפשו בתאוות השרירות והחזקות עליו אשר היא צמאה להם, יוסיף נפשו הרוה עם הצמאה, כי יתאוה ויצמא למה שהיה שבע ממנו, וכאשר השביע נפשו בו.
Right on! Veyad kol ho'om boachroino.
ReplyDeleteso we disagree - surprise!
ReplyDelete...cutting and pasting puts the whole burden on me and not being shared.......yawwwwwwwwnnnnnnnn
ReplyDelete........I will take those words and put them RIGHT BACK to where I took them- from the Ramban..
..
As I thought, no argument here just childish chatter. Typical. Run along now and play...
ReplyDeleteAs in every post, the the last words you have , the proof you lack, here and everywhere. ...
ReplyDeleteI would like an apology for calling me a bigot, especially when I am just echoing the Jewish peoples long held belief that it is not natural.
ReplyDelete