Updated and expanded One of the problems with R Shalom Kaminetsky's case against Aharon Friedman is the priviledged information about Aharon that one of the therapists is alleged to have shared with others without permission from Aharon. R Shalom claims that this information was shared with another therapist who then claimed that he also was certain that Ahron had two serious personality disorders that rendered him unfit for marriage.
Thus the discussion has been about the ethics of sharing the information, having a therapist make a diagnosis based on second hand information, the validity of the diagnosis and whether in fact these diagnoses disqualify Aharon from marriage. In sum, it has been accepted as fact that the information originated with one of the therapists who had actually met with Aharon.
I have been informed that R Shalom's report is in fact a fabrication and a fraud. Aharon and Tamar did in fact go to two different therapists. However both of these therapists have denied sharing information with anyone. Furthermore both of these therapists have Psy.D degrees and are not psychiatrists.
So apparently either the therapists are liars or R Shalom Kaminetsky is.
Rav Feldman mentions in his letter that Rav Greenblatt received a psychiatrists report on Aharon - but that psychiatrist never met Aharon. But Rav Greenblatt was also told by R Shalom that two other therapists had made reports that Aharon was incurable. The first one R Shalom claimed had met with Aharon and Tamar and had told Tamar that Aharon wasn't going to change and that therefore since that hope had kept her in the marriage she should leave the marriage. The second therapist never met with Aharon but basing himself on what Tamar and R Shalom told him - he produced a report that Aharon had 2 incurable serious mental problems - paranoia and OCD - that made him incapable of being a husband. There is no mention anywhere that Aharon gave permission to share the information - in fact the 2 therapists that he and Tamar saw deny discussing him with others - or that the therapists gave permission for their reports to be used
To summarize: It has been accepted as fact that the information about the purported 2 incurable mental conditions that invalidated Aharon from marriage originated with one of the therapists who had actually met with Aharon. This is apparently a lie. Nobody should have accepted this as fact. It would have been completely against the legal / ethical obligations regarding confidentiality of the two therapists whom Tamar and Aharon visited. There has been no reason to suspect the honesty / decency and ethics of these therapists. On the other hand, there has been plenty of reason to question the same with regard to R' Shalom, including that R' Shalom's claims about Aharon are completely contrary to R' Shalom's own testimony to the Baltimore BD.
In addition, if the therapists Tamar and Aharon saw together actually believed that Aharon had paranoia or OCD, that presumably would have come up in therapy. But that subject never came up, because those claims are completely without any basis whatsoever. In addition, if these therapists thought Aharon had paranoia or OCD, Tamar would have mentioned this either in BD or in one of the many court cases that Tamar insisted on dragging the parties through. Tamar never did so.
Thus we can conclude that not only were the claims made in the name of various therapists an indication of gross incompetence, they were made without meeting with Aharon and at most were totally dependent on Tamar's and R Shalom's negative reports about him and thus they are clearly not true. Further proof is that Tamar never mentioned any concern about Aharon's mental health to anyone including beis din and the secular courts. Finally even if true the diagnosis was not justification for a ruling of mekach ta'os.
So apparently either the therapists are liars or R Shalom Kaminetsky is.
Rav Feldman mentions in his letter that Rav Greenblatt received a psychiatrists report on Aharon - but that psychiatrist never met Aharon. But Rav Greenblatt was also told by R Shalom that two other therapists had made reports that Aharon was incurable. The first one R Shalom claimed had met with Aharon and Tamar and had told Tamar that Aharon wasn't going to change and that therefore since that hope had kept her in the marriage she should leave the marriage. The second therapist never met with Aharon but basing himself on what Tamar and R Shalom told him - he produced a report that Aharon had 2 incurable serious mental problems - paranoia and OCD - that made him incapable of being a husband. There is no mention anywhere that Aharon gave permission to share the information - in fact the 2 therapists that he and Tamar saw deny discussing him with others - or that the therapists gave permission for their reports to be used
To summarize: It has been accepted as fact that the information about the purported 2 incurable mental conditions that invalidated Aharon from marriage originated with one of the therapists who had actually met with Aharon. This is apparently a lie. Nobody should have accepted this as fact. It would have been completely against the legal / ethical obligations regarding confidentiality of the two therapists whom Tamar and Aharon visited. There has been no reason to suspect the honesty / decency and ethics of these therapists. On the other hand, there has been plenty of reason to question the same with regard to R' Shalom, including that R' Shalom's claims about Aharon are completely contrary to R' Shalom's own testimony to the Baltimore BD.
In addition, if the therapists Tamar and Aharon saw together actually believed that Aharon had paranoia or OCD, that presumably would have come up in therapy. But that subject never came up, because those claims are completely without any basis whatsoever. In addition, if these therapists thought Aharon had paranoia or OCD, Tamar would have mentioned this either in BD or in one of the many court cases that Tamar insisted on dragging the parties through. Tamar never did so.
Thus we can conclude that not only were the claims made in the name of various therapists an indication of gross incompetence, they were made without meeting with Aharon and at most were totally dependent on Tamar's and R Shalom's negative reports about him and thus they are clearly not true. Further proof is that Tamar never mentioned any concern about Aharon's mental health to anyone including beis din and the secular courts. Finally even if true the diagnosis was not justification for a ruling of mekach ta'os.
Is it possible Tamar had a copy of the aforementioned original therapist's report or records and she supplied it to her rabbinic advisors?
ReplyDeleteWow!
ReplyDelete... and THIS is what they used to be מתיר אשת איש לעלמא?
שומו שמים!
This makes sense now. With the prior story the therapists would have been clearly been in violation of HIPA.
ReplyDeleteFirstly, diagnoses need not be made by a psychiatrist. Any social worker in a clinic needs to make a diagnosis for the clinic to send claims for reimbursement. Secondly, if the therapists would admit to sharing information without consent their respective licenses would be revoked. I wouldn't be surprised if they are just covering up to save their own skin.
ReplyDeleteIf this is true - we are not talking about differences in Sikul Haddas, not talking about a machlokes in Dvar halacha - we are talking about a gangster who belongs in jail for the rest of his life.
ReplyDeleteSo who is lying? I say that if the therapists are also in the business of making mamzerim, then I don't know who is lying.
ReplyDeleteIf true it is truly bizarre that she would not mention it to either beis din or the secular court. It seems that she was not aware of these two personality traits but they are inventions of the therapist that the Kainetskys consulted with.
ReplyDeleteAt most you can say that one of the family therapists told her that if she didn't like Aharon there was little chance his personality would change. But she was not told that by this therapist that Aharon had 2 serious conditions that were impossible to live with. It seems that the Kaminetskys in conjunction with their "helpful" expert(s) cooked this diagnosis out of thin air.
I'm sure his karate skills would come into good use there...
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah stated, "Furthermore both of these therapists have Psy.D degrees and are not psychiatrists."
ReplyDeleteI would seem from this statement that regarding psychological reports, a Beis Din would only except a report from a psychiatrist. Is this understanding correct?
keep in mind that mrs goldfein is a psychologist and has friends who could of fakes a report. not that i am accusing such outstanding people of doing such a thing
ReplyDeleteIMHO, It would be indispensable , as a responsible publisher, to have full verification of facts, and disclose sources, so they can be verified by anyone who is interested; This are very profound accusations
ReplyDeleteA social worker is not a 'rofeh mumche'. (Then again, to the K's, it can be stretched. But should be disclosed. Watch RG say its a good enough mumche..
ReplyDeleteAre you insinuating the therapists perjured themselves in filing claims forms for federal (employees) insurance policies? (Don't worry, the statute of limitations probably expired.)
ReplyDelete"Any social worker in a clinic needs to make a diagnosis for the clinic to send claims for reimbursement"
ReplyDelete.. that's for therapy. wouldn't be valid for the purpose intended here.
See: http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamars-use-of-secular-evaluations-for.html
and: http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamar-epsteins-heter-versus-haifa.html
and: http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamar-epsteins-heter-lets-call-spade.html
they ARE allowed to share for purposes of forensic evaluation. Problem here is that it required informed consent, since it wasn't court ordered.
ReplyDeleteTherapists rarely furnish written reports to patients & unlike medical doctors I believe they're usually not required to do so. In some states they need to supply a summation of sorts, but not actual notes.
ReplyDeleteBesides, Tamar wouldn't have any right to Aharon's records, anyway.
seems like you already have passed judgment on Rav Shalom and Rav Shmuel. couldnt possobly be that the therapists lied!
ReplyDeleteRabbi - all of this information keeps compounding. I cannot understand why TE is still living with her paramour.
ReplyDeleteHave you or anyone else found why RNG and RShmuelK have yet to put out an unequivocal statement that she is living in sin and the children will be mamzerim. Until they do, many people will argue that you and several others are just publicity seekers who are extremists, and this is a dispute between poskim. Other people will say that by not publicly coming out against - they are implicitly accepting and other people will argue that all we have is a heter that was never rescinded. I particularly question RNG - according to an earlier post, he believes he was duped and was trying to clear his name. How can someone tell you that but not have him publicly say so? Without a public statement, the argument that he was duped is worthless and by not publicly making a statement - how can anyone be sure of what he thinks and clear his name?
Those two need to come out with a public statement. It is the only way 1) they can start to make up for this mess; 2) force her to separate as she will have no one saying it is OK; 3) not give TE anything to hold onto anymore; 4) show the public that they truly acknowledge the mistake as right now their silence is deafaning; and 5) to me most importantly have taken public steps to prevent mamzerim
How do you know she is one of the therapists? I have asked on this Blog and others if Dr. Goldfein is one the psychologists involved in this case. I have never heard anything definite. For if this is true, Dr. Goldfein has serious 'conflict of interest' issues at stake. If this is based on heresy or conjecture, you are causing harm to her.
ReplyDeleteExperience is the key not schooling. A recent med school graduate would not be considered a rofeh mumche because they lack experience even though he has the same education as a practicing physician. A PA who specializes in one area of medicine may be a rofeh mumche in their respective field even though they don't hold the title of DOCTOR. To suggest that the title is what designates someone as rofehmumche is absurd. I will not sift through three articles to find what you are aiming at.
ReplyDeleteyou didn't read what i wrote... "has friends who could of??" never accused anyone of anything
ReplyDeletecouldnt possobly be that the therapists lied!
ReplyDeleteEven if the therapists lied - is that the type of therapist you rely upon to allow a married woman to sin? If they are lying now, is it not conceivable that they lied to R. Shalom and his psychiatrist as well, in order to get a few bucks from Tamar and her family? The bottom line is, there is something rotten in the State Denmark. Oh, and in this case too.
Firstly, diagnoses need not be made by a psychiatrist.
ReplyDeleteIncorrect.
Secondly, if the therapists would admit to sharing information without consent their respective licenses would be revoked. I wouldn't be surprised if they are just covering up to save their own skin.
Well, well, if the character of the "rofim mumchim" is no good (i.e. lying to save their skin; violating their professional ethics and oaths), then they are clearly unreliable to make type of consequential assessments and determinations. You do not rely on this to allow a married woman to sin.
I would seem from this statement that regarding psychological reports, a Beis Din would only except a report from a psychiatrist.
ReplyDeletePsychological reports do come from psychologists. Psychiatric reports must come from psychiatrists. An incurable mental disorder must be diagnosed by a psychiatrist - who has medical training.
I'm not the one who said that a MD is a requirement.
ReplyDeleteI'm saying that diagnosis for clinical purposes is very different than for forensics which are adversarial. I know many psychologists AND psychiatrists aren't aware of the ethical issues and possible legal claims. מעשים בכל יום that heimishe MH pro's aren't careful and I believe that there should be an educational campaign to let them know that DSM clinical diagnosis lacks "validity"- according to the DSM architects.
If you don't have time to even skim through my three links - try the first three pgs of:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamars-use-of-secular-evaluations-for.html
The last file in that package is from the Chair of DSM IV - Allen Frances - he is בגדר מומחה שבמומחים. He's very clear about the problems that are rampant.
This really goes back to the whole concept of comparing MH to regular medicine and the categorical approach instituted in DSM III by Robert Spitzer . In the above file I also linked to the discussion between 25 top MH pros including Frances where you can see that what clinician's hear in training is in no way similar to what the real pros believe. There's a tremendous knowledge gap between research and clinical work, and it's discussed extensively in the lit.
Experience is the key not schooling.
ReplyDeleteRight. So any car mechanic can somehow be considered "a rofe mumche?" A social work is just not a doctor, period. No mater what experience they claim to have, they are not a rofe/doctor. Now, once you do have a legitimate doctor, you can then debate how good/mumche they are.
A PA who specializes in one area of medicine may be a rofeh mumche in their respective field even though they don't hold the title of DOCTOR.
According to which poseik?
Hey Yeshiva bachur I thought philly talmudim are not allowed to be on the net. Learning more and more every day about philly
ReplyDeleteDidn't the 'heter' discuss something about medication working or not working? That is only an MD decision, not a PsyD, not a social worker, not an unlicensed therapist, not a licensed therapist.
ReplyDeleteWho is the rofeh mumche?
I don't know who your sources are, but is it possible that they are the ones which are lying?
ReplyDeletethen you statement regarding someone necessary lying between RSK and the therapist becomes false!
I understand your point but the problem is not really about who is a rofeh mumche but whether such a concept exist in the MH field.
ReplyDeleteShow me a psak that a rofe mumche needs to be an MD. And comparing a car mechanic to a SW in the realm of MH is idiotic. Rofeh does not mean doctor, rather one who has the ability to heal or facilitate the process. Mumche doesn't require a fancy title either rather more experience, greater knowledge, or better abilities.
ReplyDeleteYou and Honesty keep repeating the same nonsense. Find a halachic source or explain why you think that a practicing clinician with 35 years of successful experience in the MH is not a rofeh mumche. If you are claiming what Ploni is claiming then its not an issue with SW's per se but clinicians of any sort in the MH field are not qualified to be a rofeh mumche.
ReplyDeleteThanks. If "an incurable mental disorder must be diagnosed by a psychiatrist - who has medical training.", then a Beis Din, a Rav, cannot issue a psak (in this case heter to remarry without a get) based on an incurable mental disorder diagnosed by a psychologist. If this is the case,the reliance on a psychologist's report seems to be, IMHO, the simplest shlug up to these gangsters.
ReplyDeleteShouldn't the question be what the halachic definition of a rofeh mumche is rather than what the modern medical definition of rofeh mumche?
ReplyDeleteAre you in the field?
ReplyDeleteDo you mean ע"פ הלכה, or ע"פ secular law?
MH "experts" do constantly offer testimony in court. Top experts like Frances are saying that it often isn't worth much, and ממילא we need to know that SURELY ע"פ הלכה it isn't worth much.
Besides, there is no doubt that even much of what Frances WOULD consider worthy, would still not be worth anything ע"פ הלכה, since the top MH guys admit that much of how they see things is dependent on value judgements, and it is a דבר פשוט that religion בכלל and Yiddishkeit בפרט has different values than those of someone like Frances.
The problem is that often neither therapists nor clients recognize that the values they're working with are a bad fit with religion and Yiddishkeit, since they FEEL right.
Rav Feldman states in his letter that Rav Greenblatt said he got his information from a report written by a psychiatrist. Seems this is in addition to the two therapists mentioned by R Shlomo Kaminetsky
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah, I would appreciate if you could kindly clarify the following: according the information I have gleaned from this site, it appears that RNG received only one report from Philly. Thus, is it correct to conclude that RNG received only ONE report, and that report was from a psychiatrist that did NOT interviewed AF? If so, if Philly released that report without the MD's permission, the Gang is in trouble.
ReplyDeleteIt seems Rav Greenblatt received a psychiatrists report on Aharon - and that psychiatrist never met Aharon. But he was also told by R Shalom that two other therapists had made reports that he was incurable. The first one R Shalom claimed had met with Aharon and Tamar and had told Tamar that Aharon wasn't going to change and that therefore since that hope had kept her in the marriage she should leave the marriage. The second therapist never met with Aharon but basing himself on what Tamar and R Shalom told him - he produced a report that Aharon had 2 incurable serious mental problems - paranoia and OCD - that made him incapble of being a husband. There is no mention anywhere that Aharon gave permission to share the information - in fact the 2 therapists that he and Tamar saw deny it - or that the therapists gave pemission for their reports to be used.
ReplyDeleteNot clear, YOU were asked to prove that it is. But......they argued that the designers of the DSMn THEMSELVES said it's unreliable
ReplyDeleteScratching my head. .....
If RSK claims a woman wouldn't live with someone with OCD, consideration must be given to her mental professionals evaluations. A wife with a mental history is also a major negative, and a husband would not want to live with a mental treatment history. TF's mental history must now be disclosed.
ReplyDeleteWhy did Mr adam get involved with her? Now his mental history must be disclosed. Unless he married her consideringcher financial $ituation..
Also, mental illnesses are basically hereditary on the mother's side.
ע"פ הלכה
ReplyDeleteSo you are claiming what Mr. Ploni said. Do you only read half the words in my post?
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah states in this important update that, "Rav Feldman mentions in his letter that Rav Greenblatt received a psychiatrists report on Aharon..." In the letter, Rav Feldman mentions that he became aware of this information via a phone conversation with RNG. Thus, we are relying on RNG's word that he received what appears to be an extant document signed by the Psychiatrist. Hence, Rav Feldman, shlita's reportage that RNG "...received a psychiatrists report on Aharon...", is quite open to interpretation. Perhaps the report was verbally delivered by RSK. Perhaps a 'section' of the 'report' was merely 'quoted' by RSK in his letter to RNG. Perhaps no report exists whatsoever. I cannot accept that any SANE, SOBER psychiatrist would write, indeed conjure up, a report regarding an individual that he/she never interviewed regarding a case so contentious.
ReplyDeleteRav Feldman also has seen the psychiatric report and quotes from on page 2 of his letter describing what page he is referring to.
ReplyDeleteI just see repetition of your argument for them to PROVE something when they DID while the burden of proof is on you!
ReplyDeleteIn the letter to RNG, Sholom mentions the supposed mental health issues. Question is how much RNG followed up to research before making the kiddushin. (I understand that the heter he disclaimed himself from, or am I wrong?)
ReplyDeleteBy the way, who else besides R Fuerst was on the Bais Din to EXECUTE the heter?
I apologize for not reading Rav Feldman's letter with proper care.
ReplyDeleteIn an attempt to summarize Rav Feldman: an expert's credibility is based on the presumption that falsification would damage said expert's professional standing. I would think a perceptive individual, kal v'chomer, a Dayan, upon receiving a psychiatric report that states that the individual was never interviewed and that that the 'diagnosis' was based on the findings of another therapist, would instantly call into question the Doctor's credibility. For if his conduct in this case would become known among his peers, his professional standing would not only be damaged, he would likely receive disciplinary action.
I'm not familiar (B"H).
ReplyDelete"Never agree to that". Are you saying that there's a choice in the matter?
yes. either have your attorney insist on a copy for the client, and or refuse to cooperate (insy=ist the forensics bed one ibn your attornetys office. they'll agree right away -- too much hassle for the therapist. but of course, the reportwill be pretty mkeaningless,. sionce the therapuist knows you;'re getting a copty.)
ReplyDeleteI asked because of the case of AF. I was under the impression from the Kalmbach paper I posted, that if the forensic report is court ordered the client doesn't need to cooperate and they can use other sources. Do you mean to say that in such cases the report won't carry so much weight with the judge, so cooperation is preferred?
ReplyDeleteIn any case, by AF nothing was court ordered.
Why would the therapist care whether or not the client is getting a copy of his report?
ReplyDeletebecause they can write anything they want, and the client cant file a complaint. he doesn't have the document.
ReplyDeleteanytime someone writes a letter / document that you are not allowed to see, stay away. in general business, or in court. especially court. thats where the manipulation is done.