Rabbi Greenblatt will be in Silver Spring today to officiate over conversions. (Guess that Barry Freundel is not available today.) The mikvah is at 8901 Georgia Avenue. He will be leaving from BWI airport at 3:15. I was told that there will be protestors at airport at that time and was asked to help publicize
Ad things stand at the moment his conversions will be rejected by the orthodox Jewish world across the board, specifically in light of the Karlsberger Rov's letter.
ReplyDeleteShouldn't the names of the "converts" be posted?
Or perhaps they should be contacted ahead of time and told that their conversions will be rejected?
Who are the other Dayanim joining him on the Bais Din?
Nasty joke about Freundel. which is worse in your opinion?
ReplyDeleteTo compare Rabbi Greenblatt to a rosho like Barry Freundel is uncalled for. I had disputes with Freundel (which are documented) over his handling of conversions and mikvah. Whatever faults Rabbi Greenblatt may have they are nowhere near the כַחַשׁ וּמִרְמָה of Mr. Freundel. In fact, it was having known what kind of person Barry Freundel was that alerted me something was wrong wrong when I davened at the Young Israel Aish of Las Vegas because I saw Mr. Yitz sWyne was the same type of charlatan.
ReplyDeleteI am certain that Rabbi Eidenson and all the posters here are purely intentioned lsheim shomayim. Pray, tell who was mattir halbonas ponim? Which great rov or posek instructed that R Nota be protested against personally and in public?
ReplyDeleteRabbi Greenblatt may or may not have exhibited poor judgement in this case, but he is by all accounts a talmid chacham and a serious person. He has not acted immorally. The reference to Barry Freundel is incredibly inappropriate and just plain low. I understand that you are not the author of this email but for you to reproduce it on your blog shows a lack of judgment at best, and perhaps a bit of dishonesty.
ReplyDeleteI don't know why you won't post what I wrote. But either way, you should remove the line about Barry Freundel or you should explain why you feel it does not need to be removed.
ReplyDeleteLet's get pragmatic. If Rabbi Greenblatt agrees that he was tricked into performing a marriage for a woman who is still married to the father of her child, what happens?
ReplyDeletea) Tamar and Adam accept Rabbi Greenblatt's retraction and separate
b) Tamar and Adam reject Rabbi Greenblatt's retraction and stay together
What happens afterward?
He's really going to trenton to support ME.
ReplyDeleteVan left Brooklyn this morning
ReplyDeleteIs this a soap bubble test in the wind? Conversions from what 2 what? From MO 2 - OO? Oh' Oh'! Did he first any Questions why they want to convert, or has he been handed over a package deal * AS IS *, no questions asked? Do they need to hold on to a sherets while dunking? Is there a Disclaimer poster of buyer beware that the undo button can be activated at any moment without prior notice and with no Questions asked? Are they meshuga of toit? They will not be accepted by any of the Orthodox of any kind 'hein ba'arets vehein bechuts la'arets'.
ReplyDeleteJust a silly question to ask Rav Greenblatt if I may. If any of the individuals that the good Rov (may he live and be well) converts today should approach him in, say, two years how would he rule if the convert presents the following narrative:
ReplyDeleteAt the time of his conversion the convert was contending with a number of personal issues and he was non compos mentis. He was in fact, he claims, "out of his cotton pickin' mind', and therefore his conversion was a "taus".
As proof of his mental state at the time he presents the professional opinion of the twenty most prominent psychiatrists in the world that state that anyone who believes in a Supreme Being that is completely invisible and unknowable yet is also Omnipresent, Omnipotent, and Omniscient; that that Being is the Creator of all that exists; that He constantly attends to all the He has created; that He probes the innermost thoughts of all creatures and rewards all who do His will and punishes those who act in discord with that Will; that that Being communicated a complex moral and legal Code to a single individual who three thousand years ago connected with this Supreme Being after scaling a relatively insignificant mountain and was taught the entire Law in forty days; that anyone who actually believes the aforementioned is incontrovertibly a delusional paranoid schizophrenic.
As further evidence of his mental imbalance, the convert presents signed affidavits from 10 million Gentiles that swear they would never adopt a religion as ludicrous as Judaism.
Given the above how would the esteemed Rov rule as regards to the adoption of the Jewish faith as a "mekach taus"?
This will not be a pleasant experience for the convert. Regardless of what Rabbi Greenblatt did wrong, you are certainly an avaryan on a number of mitzvos m'deoraysa for publicizng this.
ReplyDeleteEveryone agrees they are committing adultery and any children they bear will carry the status of being a mamzer.
ReplyDeleteJS I would suggest you spend more time in yeshiva instead of making up halacha in your comments.
ReplyDeleteCausing pain to a Ger is a Halacha Mdoraisa. I don't think JS is making up a Halacha and I think being able to spend time in yeshiva is a good thing. U know where Rabbi Greenbltt and RSK and RSF live and if u want to protest which might be warranted you should do it there.
ReplyDeleteArthur please show me where it says that it is prohibited by the Torah to take necessary actions if a ger will be upset? Or family members or widows etc.
ReplyDeleteThat would basically prohibit all criticism, social pressure and punishment - because there are usually innocent people who will get upset (collateral damage) - that is unavoidable.
There is a similar argument about not calling the police for child molestors or frum men who run ponzi schemes and steal millions from other frum people. How can you do that since it will embarrass the innocent family? How will his innocent children get shidduchim etc etc. How can we have punishments involving lashes or execution - don't you realize how much upset it causes to innocent people?
You might remember a while back the discussion of Rav Elchonon Wasserman how can you hit a kid for chinuch when the Torah prohibits hitting people. What is the heter of speaking lashon harah when we know that it is an issur doreissa.
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/04/bein-adam-lchavero-sins-only-if-done-to.html
Please show me where it says that you can not carry out necessary sanctions because of collateral damage?
Does the need to consult Daas Torah not apply in this situation too?
ReplyDeleteROFL! van with what (who)? Is this en masse, wholesale, a dime a dozen? To Silver Spring or Jordan River? Yochanan rofl hamatbil? Holy spring water, holy smoke. Are any of these Syrian refuJes..better be careful, ki moloh ho'orets chummus.
ReplyDeleteI think you are missing the point.There are many other ways to protest here WITHOUT involving a protest thst would be hurtfull to Gerim.
ReplyDeleteThis is a picture of RNG with RAF
ReplyDeletehttp://greengart.smugmug.com/Events/Yeshiva-end-of-zman/i-58wBsMm/A
Moish - I posted what you wrote. I don't moderate comments every minute of the day. There are times I do other things and somethings there may be several hours before a comment is moderated.
ReplyDeleteBarry Freundel supervised conversions before he was sent to jail. Freundel is now in jail so they needed someone else to handle the conversions. What is so difficult to understand?
http://forward.com/news/breaking-news/311517/rca-pushes-conversion-reform-plan-after-barry-freundel-scandal/
You're right. You won't find in shulchan aruch "it is forbidden to stage a protest by a ger's tevila". That's why seichel is also needed to pasken shaylos. When you weight the "colateral damage" - namely that this will be devastating to a ger on one of the most meaningful days of his life, against the benefit of protesting against R' Greenblatt at this particular time and place (as opposed to protesting at any other time and place), there's no question that it's the wrong thing to do.
ReplyDeletedisagree
ReplyDeleteNo one has said that there is a protest at the mikve - it says at the airport
ReplyDeleteIt says "The mikvah is at 8901 Georgia Avenue."
ReplyDeleteFor your last Q. The 2 K's, and who is on *Fuerst*.
ReplyDeleteThe list:
Adam ben Adam,
Ben adam Lechavero,
Yukish ben Lekish,
Lekish ben Faivish
Flavius bar Minan,
Nafcha bar Samcha,
Sorchei bar Padrei,
Pondrek bar Papa II
Mashtin Beyam hagodol bar Shilshul Katan,
Aspamya bar Koziva,
Kozbi ben Sura,
Andropolus ben Hocus Pocus,
Octopus bar Polipus,
Polipus bar Borsekus
Darius ben Aspargus,
Taus ben Mekach,
Mekach ben Lekach.
And now the Madres:
Maria bas Magdalena,
Madre bas Mei zahav (Gold Spring)
Amaslay bas Carnivore,
Osmas bas Bosmas
Artilay bas Mikulay,
Kuley hay veaz-ulay.
The van is full and overcrowded, the leftovers are on the house and please keep the change. :->
no chance any beis din will reject a geirus done by rav nota, regardless of their opinion on this epstein saga.
ReplyDeleteThen why publish the address of the Mikveh? It implies Rabbi Greenblatt should be confronted there. That may not have been the intention but it does give that impression.
ReplyDeleteThat is indeed a serious consideration. But bear in mind that all of the conversions performed by the Georgetown Voyeur were still considered kosher because 2 out of 3 rabbonim on the Botei Dinim overseeing the geirus were acceptable. R. Heshy Billet of Woodmere might say otherwise since he once told Rabbi Jacob Rubinstein, z"l, to ignore a document from a Bais Din that had 1 signatory out of 7 who he felt was no good.
ReplyDeleteThere was never any intention and it specifically says the demonstrations are to be at the airport
ReplyDeleteNo need to be snarky. Don't you want to be taken seriously?
ReplyDeleteHisachdus' letter stated that all who were involved in this sordid heter recant (as I believe everybody is waiting for them to do so) and undo the mess that they have done. So far, that has not happened.
ReplyDeleteThe letter from the Eidah HaChareidis (which you can find in my car window. ...in case you cannot find it on this site) stated that botei dinim all over must protest)Botei din, Hu hadin everybody.
Rav Sternbuch in his letter complained why no one is protesting.
But I nonetheless agree with you wholeheartedly that when they retract the shaming MUST stop.
Ehud, I must say that I'm dazzled by your vocabulary and potty. ....I meant poetry. ..
ReplyDeleteLet's all go protest with out pitchforks and torches!
ReplyDeletethat is true and it also says the demonstration is at the airport
ReplyDeleteLeitsonisa deAvoda Zara which is a runner up of Gilui Arayos. I Davka advise you to sweep a spell check to bedazzle and rather be politically correct. See Rashi: Beis Karya - beis Galya. veda"l
ReplyDeleteYou are not answering the question. Why was the address of the mikva given if you did not want demonstations at the mikva?
ReplyDeleteWhy is it difficult to understand that by making that statement you are hinting at a comparison of Rav Greenblatt to Fruendel?
ReplyDelete"Botei din, Hu hadin everybody."--Where did you come up with that Chiddush?
ReplyDeletewhy is it so difficult for you to understand what was said?
ReplyDeleteCargo van full of left over latkes from chanuka, to dump into the mikvah, to convert under the eyes of RNG
ReplyDeletePray, tell who was mattir halbonas ponim? Which great rov or posek instructed that R Nota be protested against personally and in public?
ReplyDeleteאֵין חָכְמָה וְאֵין תְּבוּנָה וְאֵין עֵצָה לְנֶגֶד ה' - כָּל מָקוֹם שֶׁיֵּשׁ חִלּוּל הַשֵׁם אֵין חוֹלְקִין כָּבוֹד לָרַב
This will not be a pleasant experience for the convert.
ReplyDeleteIt will be a much more unpleasant experience when they find out that their conversion is not universally recognized because it was done through RNG.
you should remove the line about Barry Freundel
ReplyDeleteIt is very befitting. First, this Shul with it's female president had Barry Freundel do conversions - with its unfortunate ending. Now that Freundel is not there, why couldn't they just send the converts to Baltimore? Why couldn't they ask the Beis Din of Baltimore to oversee it? Why did they need to bring in a figure who is currently covered in controversy?
Interestingly, some Memphis converts come to Rabbi Belsky's "Beis Din" to do the process.
If that was your intent you will have to live with it I guess
ReplyDeleteHuh, did you say that you need to dump RNG into Mikvah of latkes??
ReplyDeleteAh, I was waiting for someone to ask that question. If I am correct, macha'ah applies for everybody? Hmm. ..anybody to back me up? :-!
ReplyDeleteSee beirkei yosef on y"d 243:3 that someone who is huchzak e'hora'ah and was ta'ah even bedvar ervah you are not allowed to be mendah him or humiliate him.
ReplyDeleteOK, Mr. Barak, my potty stands corrected.
ReplyDeleteWhat does that have to do with someone who has received widespread comments from major rabbonim that he made a terrible mistake and he refuses to acknowledge the mistake?
ReplyDeleteIn fact the Birkai Yosef is a summary of the Yam Shel Shlomo Yevamos 16:11 and which states this applies if the psak is good bdieved - which clearly isn't true in this case!
ים של שלמה מסכת יבמות פרק טז
שהרב המוחזק להוראה, אפילו טעה בדבר איסור ערוה, כגון שאם התיר מים שאין להם סוף, או כל כיוצא בזה, שבדיעבד מותר, אין מנדין אותו, ולא מכלימין אותו, והרי הוא בחזקת כשרות:
maybe they should take up Gardening
ReplyDeleteFirstly, that is where it has been proven that he has erred. Criticism by rabbonim (some of which has to do with the idea of hafka'as kedushin and not this particular case) is not proof of an actual error. There is still no concrete proof that the MH is report is not to be relied upon. I am merely pointing out that humiliating a respected moreh hora'h is not a simple matter. I have secondhand knowledge as of this past shabbos he has no plans of retracting. In all honesty the majority of rabbinim and dayanim in america have not come out against him. They do not feel a need to publicly demonstrate. Even RAF hasn't said to do so. So a bunch of chassidishe nobody's (yes i said that) used strong language - typical yet meaningless.
ReplyDeleteThis same MO technique is used by the Hot Dog fressers yearly competition @ Nathans Hot Dogs. After dunking the roll, they swallow like a Gargeran.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Belsky in Memphis? Hasn't he been out of there for decades?
ReplyDeletehttp://ophelbaszion.weebly.com/about-the-author.html
We lol use ice cream cones instead ;->
ReplyDeleteGladly! here goes. Mi hu shero'oh elu yotsin velo yetse. Besides, Hocheach tochiach applies equally to all. Please let me know if you need some more backup.
ReplyDeleteYou are obviously blissfully unaware of Rav Cheskel Roth's שומו שמים call to arms, wherein he states clearly that all רנ"ג's Gittin, Kidushin etc. performed post י"ז כסלו are invalid. Presumably this includes conversions.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Israel Belsky's "Beis Din." You gotta travel up north to them.
ReplyDeleteYeh, invalid until he retracts the psak, as it states explicitly in the letter. And then what, suddenly the invalid becomes valid? By what mechanism, pray tell? אלא מאי, this is not actually a ruling of invalidity, but an attempt to pressure him to retract.
ReplyDeleteLet me ask you. ......Freundel for all purposes retracted from what he did and perhaps even more so, he never put his actions under the banner of Torah. How does that compare to RNG? Ah, but then again, they both did their acts secretly. ....
ReplyDeleteGot it. BTW, there's also a geirus factory in Lakewood, that people go to. (Though I don't know specifically that Memphis "converts" come there).
ReplyDelete