By accepting the invitation to speak at the Pine River Village Shul, R Shalom Kaminetsky has left himself wide open to a frontal attack. Due to small size (this ain’t the Agudah Convention) and location (10 minute drive from BMG) this event can be easily exploited to help bring down one the culprits in this chillul Hashem. The following are a few suggestions:
1) Twenty or so individuals show up to event demanding SK explain 'Daas Torah' re: heter. Distribute letters of Rabbanim. Video the showdown.
And/Or
2) Contact 'Adopt-A-Kollel' protesting the event.
3) Contact shuls that support Adopt-A-Kollel protesting event.
4) Apply pressure to Pine River Village Shul to cancel event.
I am sure there are other and better ideas.
The following contact information may be of use:
The Rabbi of the Pine River Village Shul is Rabbi Noson Boruch Herzka. His email is pinerivershul@gmail.com, current as of 2013.
Contact information for Adopt-A-Kollel: Yaakov Bernfeld Program Director Phone. 732.333.2483 Fax. 732.333.2484 email info@adoptakollel.org
The following is a link to an article from the Hamodia featuring Novominsker Rebbe and Harav Levin Advocating for Adopt-a-Kollel. From the 'adopt a kollel' website: http://adoptakollel.org/PressCoverage/Midwest%20Hamodia.pdf
I guess that R' Shlomo Miller's letter isn't enough for the Lakewood community. Probably nothing in Lakewood will change, unless the roshei yeshiva come out with a letter against this travesty.
can someone who will be there ask him what he plans on doing to end this unfortunate saga ? what will be done to prevent this from happening again? someone needs to be held accountable. is it only when the FBI gets involved that things start to change? what good is an aguda convention if we cannot bring the most important issues to the table and end for once , RABBIS DESTROYING FAMILIES , CREATING VIRTUAL YESOMIM (and mamzeirim) ,DESTROYING KLAL YISRAEL
Why is what Rav Shalom eats for dinner or where he goes to a melave malke or what kind of car he drives relevent to the issue at hand regarding the heter?
Rosenbaum of Madison title is behind this organization and makes all the calls. Perhaps we can organize a demonstration at this function. Perhaps informing Rosenbaum about Sam if he does not already know will help as well.
Just called Yaakov Bernfeld program line below. Some woman answered saying that the number is just affiliated with Adopt-A-Kollel and she has nothing to do with the choice of speaker. Will try the rabbi's email listed below.
I stand corrected. HaRav Nosson Boruch Herzka, shlita, is NOT the Rabbi of shul where Shalom K is to speak. HaRav Herzka is the Mara D’asra of the Pine River Bais Medrash in Lakewood. Rav Herzka, shlita, is the-son-in law of HaRav Baruch Sorotzkin zt"l, the son of HaRav Zalman Sorotzkin zt"l.
Shalom K is to speak at: Congregation of Pine River Village 38 Goldcrest Drive Lakewood, NJ, 08701 phone: 732-367-7175
i Know that R Millers lackeys like Zucker are trying to make a name for themselves and their kanoies but the offer was made to go to Reb Dovid Feinstein Shlita and let him see all the facts and all the information about the case but they refuse to agree. If its so black and white it should be a no brainer to go to him. Lsheim Shomayim my foot
I guess if your anonymous life exists on some blog and you declare someone a public disgrace you might be correct but in the real world there are real people and most of the world doesn't see it the way the bashers see it. Why wont they agree to go to Reb Dovid? there is no answer, which throws in to doubt the true motive of the Kanoyim
Your statement is false. He wasn't even there when she got married. I don't know all the facts in the story you definitely don't know the facts in the story. To go on a blog and to make questionable statements as fact is very wrong. Giving out private cell phone #'s is wrong too.
A Bais Din to do what? Rule if a nogea bdaver (RSK ) can compile facts for a woman he's helping, not speak to the other side, and then ask a ninety year old Posek (who feels he was fooled and tricked) to 'trust' him that this is what needs to be done..and never tell the Posek that a Bais Din in Baltimore has been involved for years...and allow a woman to get married without a get... We need a B"d for that? ALL Rabbonim who have looked at this have concluded its complete nonsense! O and Rainer Daas is your real name? Very brave of you to put your name out there...
Surly you jest. 'He wasn't there when she got married'?! Really? Your an intelligent fellow...you can do better than that! What don't you know? Ill can help you out.
There is a demonstration to take place at the PRV Siimcha hall on Pine St. Lakewood.http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2015/12/come-one-come-all-to-protest-by-sholom.html
A protest is being organized. Call 908-274-1501 or email Lakewoodaskanus@gmail.com for more information.
Nathan, RSK didn't pasken nor did he marry off the lady. Ask Zucker why RNG wrote the letter he did. to these gangsters you want to be associated with that's fine you'll end up in the same hole they will end up in Korach Vadosoy. As far as not giving my real name. I don't need my phone # posted just because I don't agree with your corrupt position.
I once spoke to Reb Dovid Feinstein. He does not make statements, although here may be a little different in that he may only need to issue a p'sak. Unfortunately, from that experience (and from others,) I do see him somewhat as a timid man, so I would be wary to have him decide anything controversial. ......
I needed Reb Dovid to sign a letter regarding something controversial. He said he doesn't do such things. When was the last time you saw Reb Dovid Feinstein take a stance? Can you show me where?
Again with this nonsense? Rav Dovid's clear and unequivocal position is that Tamar is married to Aaron. Period.
Now, for your bogus claim. Who suggested going to Rav Dovid? Was it R. Shalom Kaminetzky? Was it Rav Shmuel? Is the not-answering-the-phone now going on in reverse - maybe a middah kneged midah? Please stop the lies. In the real world, if Reb Shalom refuses to admit that erred, then YU will the perfect fit for him.
Lets remember the previous Kaminetzky line: 'אינו ראוי שתורה תמסרה על ידו
There is an old saying"discretion is the better part of valor'!
Not everything is done in the open on the highest levels. No one knows what the CIA or the KGB or MOSSAD do or don't do. That is also a stance, and then some.!
So don't be a fool. RDF Feinstein did not hold back from signing letters and issuing expalanations during the recent Dodelson scandal, when a great nephew of RDF was under the gun from the Lakewood heavies who got a WRITTEN "heter" from American Moetzes Gedolim to go to the secular papers. Obviously Rav Dovid Feinstein did not agree with that and gave out letters with his signature on them that were published on this blog not too long ago.
So, at this time, since he has not given or signed any known written letter against R Notta Greeblatt, we can assume that "shtika kehoda'a" and that he at least does not oppose the Heter, even if he does not agree with it, which he may well agree with as far as we know because he has not said anything either way.
thus as long as the American Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, with R Dovid Feinstein as one of them, says nothing, then their colleague and friend R Shmuel Kaminetsky is safe, and so is R Notta Greenblatt, and so is the Heter, and Tamar can sleep well at night, for now.
This is becoming a classical Mexican standoff that no one will win. It should be clear by now, but some people are not letting it go. So be it, let's see what keeps on happening.
He clearly did all the work. He clearly behaved inappropriately. If he wanted Rav Dovid's opinion, he certainly could have called Rav Dovid prior to callously seeking to "marry" off an already married woman.
Ask Zucker why RNG wrote the letter he did.
Why don't you tell us why he wrote it. Then, if you are attacking RNG's character - is that the type of person RSK relied upon to "marry" off an already married woman????? Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
If Rav Elya would be alive and well, you can be sure that RSK wouldn't dare do any of this nonsense. It is of great wonderment how Rav Elya's talmidim are not properly stepping up to the plate.
No, you're making out of this a Mexican hat dance, getting carried away snappin' the Rap. Rav Dovid tolding me TO MY FACE that he doesn't write letters. There is ONLY ONE letter on behalf of a talmid of his that I personally know, who also confirmed that his was the only such type letter that Reb Dovid EVER wrote. I also will contend that he told me that long before the letter you say you have seen.
Shtika in this case (and in nowadays) is NOT k'hoda'ah. I'm afraid to say that it now means for the most part that people are afraid to speak out.
I also saw a rov on the Lower East Side who was sitting right next to Reb Dovid and made some criticism on tznius. I saw his reaction....... It is much easier to keep your mouth shut .......ironically in the cases where speaking out is required.
RSK is not any different then any other person that is involved in a court case he presented her side of the story with the facts he had to RNG Your not in the position nor is D Eidenson or anyone on this blog including myself in the position to make that determination if he acted inappropriately since no one has seen all the information that was provided. I am absolutely not attacking RNG its Zucker who is proudly stating how he is fulfilling R millers direction who lied to RNG and within a few hours of the writing it was on the blogs. RNG was told it would be a private letter.You are clueless as to knowing what Reb Elya would and wouldn't have done.
Rav Dovid's clear and unequivocal position is that Tamar is married to Aaron. Period. Is that a fact? So why is RSK so willing to go to him and let him have the final say on the matter? Why wont the other side take them up on the offer if its a fact what your saying? the answer is because they are not so convinced that he will agree with their position and if he doesn't what are they going to do? Call Reb Dovid all the nasty things that they have called anyone else that opposed their opinion?
It's not about where he goes to have melava malka. It's about being honored to speak at a function of בני תורה. Is a person who permits a married woman to commit adultery under the guise of a contrived so-called "heter"' qualified to give דברי חיזוק?
Is that a fact? So why is RSK so willing to go to him and let him have the final say on the matter?
Why has RSK not yet gone to Rav Dovid? Why? Why would he want anyone else to agree to this? What does he need this silly stipulation, especially when he didn't seek Rav Dovid's approval before "marrying" off an eishes ish.
Bottom line is you are lying. Is there a possibility that RSK feels that he can somehow save face by playing a game with Rav Dovid - a game he knows Rav Dovid will never agree to? I don't know, but it is silly talk. When RSK will get a letter from Rav Dovid that he agrees with his "heter," you'll have what to hang your hat on.
RSK is not any different then any other person that is involved in a court case he presented her side of the story
Of course there is a difference. He did not claim that he was just representing her side of the story. He was using his Rabbinic position as well his cloak of piousness in order to circumvent halacha. He sought to work outside of the normal halachic framework.
Your not in the position nor is D Eidenson or anyone on this blog including myself in the position to make that determination if he acted inappropriately
Every Talmid Chochom of note who has spoken and written about this say that he acted extremely inappropriately (and worse!).
since no one has seen all the information that was provided.
Excuse me? Just release all the information and allow the facts to speak for themselves. Why hide the facts and then have such a hard time defend RSK???
why would ask an "idiot" and a "dishonest fool" any questions? What does this say about you?
I am sure that you do remember calling me those just a day or two ago, right? We can converse as soon as we are sure that you are willing to have an adult conversation. Good luck.
I know you think that the public is entitled to all the information but unfortunately you are wrong. I am sure that neither AF or TE would want everything pasted on the blogs. RSG has stated he is willing to show ALL the information to Reb Dovid Feinstein and let him decide and they will follow whatever he says. RSM refuses to allow that. According to you every talmid chochom of note holds they are wrong why would Reb Dovid be any different? Why refuse the offer? The answer is that they are not interested in the truth they just plain and simply hate RSK.
The question is if it did happen when Reb Elya was alive would he have dealt with it like this and the answer to that is no! He would have taken care of business and end of story not having anonymous bloggers spewing all the garbage they want and it being feed by agenda driven people.
There is no place that you can show that "he was using his Rabbinic position as well his cloak of piousness in order to circumvent halacha." Did he say RNG just ignore the halacha and do as I say? no he didn't, did RNG tell him its against halacha and he said well do it anyway? no! You want to make up nice cliches and type with BOLD letters post them on a blog that's nice but maybe you should get the facts straight beforehand. unless of course the idea is to win at all cost whether your right or wrong.
And as far as the letter is concerned find out from Zucker what he told RNG dont just quote the letter. other people in our history did that as well but is says Ayin tachas Ayin.
Lets have an honest discussion not that when you dont know the facts you make them up to fit your agenda.
A private letter that RNG was lied to about the intent and purpose of the letter in order to discredit RNG and RSG. Zucker is the guy who hoodwinked RNG.
I know you think that the public is entitled to all the information but unfortunately you are wrong. I am sure that neither AF or TE would want everything pasted on the blogs.
This is not just their private business at this point. This is a klal Yisrael issue.
There is no place that you can show that "he was using his Rabbinic position as well his cloak of piousness in order to circumvent halacha." Did he say RNG just ignore the halacha and do as I say? no he didn't, did RNG tell him its against halacha and he said well do it anyway? no!
You are deliberately obscuring the matter at issue. The question is not whether this is "against halachah." The question is whether the information on which the heter is based is factual. That is what needs to be decided before any halachah question is put on the table. Sholom K was in fact trusted as to the truth of the information he provided because of his Rabbinic position and perceived piety. Had RNG not trusted him, he likely would have investigated the matter thoroughly or refused to get involved.
“So while it is true and important to show that the annulment was not valid and the resulting children would be mamzerim - but there is a much greater question that needs to be address. The larger question is about the apparent massive incompetence and corruption at the highest levels of so-called Orthodox leadership in the United States.”
Today’s daf hayomi, explains the curses in Deut. 27:15-26:
“Cursed be anyone who makes a sculptured or molten image, abhorred by the Lord, a craftsman’s handiwork, and sets it up in secret.—And all the people shall respond, Amen. Cursed be he who insults his father or mother.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who moves his fellow countryman’s landmark.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who misdirects a blind person on his way.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who subverts the rights of the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with his father’s wife, for he has removed his father’s garment.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with any beast.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with his sister, whether daughter of his father or of his mother.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with his mother-in- law.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who strikes down his fellow countryman in secret.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who accepts a bribe in the case of the murder of an innocent person.— And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Teaching and observe them.—And all the people shall say, Amen “(Deut. 27:15-26).
Sotah 37b:
“R. Judah b. Nahmani, the lecturer [It was customary for a teacher to impart the lesson to a lecturer who delivered it to the disciples.] of Simeon b. Lakish, expounded: The whole section [of the blessings and curses] refers to none other than the adulterer and adulteress. [It states,] “Cursed be anyone who makes a sculptured or molten image, abhorred by the Lord, a craftsman’s handiwork, and sets it up in secret.—And all the people shall respond, Amen” (Deut. 27:15). Does it suffice merely to pronounce cursed with such a person! [The penalty is death] But it alludes to one who has immoral intercourse, and begets a son who goes to live among heathens [Being the offspring of an adulterous union, he is debarred from the Assembly and cannot marry an Israelite woman.] and worships idols; cursed be the father and mother of this man since they were the cause of his sinning. [And not only with idolatry. His heathen association will lead him to commit the other offences in this section, provoking upon his parents the enumerated curses; v., however, Rashi.] Our Rabbis taught: “When the Lord your God brings you into the land that you are about to enter and possess, you shall pronounce the blessing at Mount Gerizim and the curse at Mount Ebal” (Deut. 11:29).
רש"י סוטה ל"ז ב'
אלא זה הבא על הערוה - אשת איש והוליד ממזר ומתוך בושתו שאסור לבא בקהל ואינו מוצא אשה הוא הולך לבין העובדי כוכבים ועובד עבודת כוכבים ארורים אלה שעשאוהו לעבוד פסל ומסכה וכן דורש את כולן כל אחת לפי פשטה אותו של עריות כגון שוכב עם חותנתו ואשת אביו ואם אחותו כולם באשת איש ולמיקם בתרי ארורי שוכב עם כל בהמה אשת איש שעשתה מעשה בהמה שמנאפת מקלל אביו ואמו הבא על אשת איש מזלזל באביו ובאמו שגידלו גידולין רעים בביתם משגה עור מפתה אשת איש שהיא סומא בדבר ואינה יודעת עונשו כמוהו משיג גבול רעהו בא על אשתו הרי הוא השיג גבול מכה רעהו בסתר גורם לו בלחש סתריו שתמות בבדיקת מים המרים לוקח שוחד להכות נפש לוקח שוחד להיות עוקב אחר המנאף ולפתות לו אשת איש וגורם לו מיתה מטה משפט גר יתום איני יודע לדורשו.
“So while it is true and important to show that the annulment was not valid and the resulting children would be mamzerim - but there is a much greater question that needs to be address. The larger question is about the apparent massive incompetence and corruption at the highest levels of so-called Orthodox leadership in the United States.”
Today’s daf hayomi, explains the curses in Deut. 27:15-26:
“Cursed be anyone who makes a sculptured or molten image, abhorred by the Lord, a craftsman’s handiwork, and sets it up in secret.—And all the people shall respond, Amen. Cursed be he who insults his father or mother.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who moves his fellow countryman’s landmark.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who misdirects a blind person on his way.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who subverts the rights of the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with his father’s wife, for he has removed his father’s garment.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with any beast.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with his sister, whether daughter of his father or of his mother.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with his mother-in- law.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who strikes down his fellow countryman in secret.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who accepts a bribe in the case of the murder of an innocent person.— And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Teaching and observe them.—And all the people shall say, Amen “(Deut. 27:15-26).
Sotah 37b: “R. Judah b. Nahmani, the lecturer [It was customary for a teacher to impart the lesson to a lecturer who delivered it to the disciples.] of Simeon b. Lakish, expounded: The whole section [of the blessings and curses] refers to none other than the adulterer and adulteress. [It states,] “Cursed be anyone who makes a sculptured or molten image, abhorred by the Lord, a craftsman’s handiwork, and sets it up in secret.—And all the people shall respond, Amen” (Deut. 27:15). Does it suffice merely to pronounce cursed with such a person! [The penalty is death] But it alludes to one who has immoral intercourse, and begets a son who goes to live among heathens [Being the offspring of an adulterous union, he is debarred from the Assembly and cannot marry an Israelite woman.] and worships idols; cursed be the father and mother of this man since they were the cause of his sinning. [And not only with idolatry. His heathen association will lead him to commit the other offences in this section, provoking upon his parents the enumerated curses; v., however, Rashi.] Our Rabbis taught: “When the Lord your God brings you into the land that you are about to enter and possess, you shall pronounce the blessing at Mount Gerizim and the curse at Mount Ebal” (Deut. 11:29).
רש"י סוטה ל"ז ב'
אלא זה הבא על הערוה - אשת איש והוליד ממזר ומתוך בושתו שאסור לבא בקהל ואינו מוצא אשה הוא הולך לבין העובדי כוכבים ועובד עבודת כוכבים ארורים אלה שעשאוהו לעבוד פסל ומסכה וכן דורש את כולן כל אחת לפי פשטה אותו של עריות כגון שוכב עם חותנתו ואשת אביו ואם אחותו כולם באשת איש ולמיקם בתרי ארורי שוכב עם כל בהמה אשת איש שעשתה מעשה בהמה שמנאפת מקלל אביו ואמו הבא על אשת איש מזלזל באביו ובאמו שגידלו גידולין רעים בביתם משגה עור מפתה אשת איש שהיא סומא בדבר ואינה יודעת עונשו כמוהו משיג גבול רעהו בא על אשתו הרי הוא השיג גבול מכה רעהו בסתר גורם לו בלחש סתריו שתמות בבדיקת מים המרים לוקח שוחד להכות נפש לוקח שוחד להיות עוקב אחר המנאף ולפתות לו אשת איש וגורם לו מיתה מטה משפט גר יתום איני יודע לדורשו.
RSG has stated he is willing to show ALL the information to Reb Dovid Feinstein and let him decide and they will follow whatever he says.
Again, let RSK do this without delay. This should not be contingent on any other bully tactics and backroom deals. Let him sign or publicly state that he will listen to Rav Dovid go show Rav Dovid his info and accept the psak, without delay.
As I have noted, which you chose to ignore, RSK does not value Rav Dovid's psak. His contempt is so far as to promoting the whole Doelsohn Chilul Hashem, going after The Weiss' Parnassah and even going after MTJ - in a very public way.
As to the other points, @kishkeyum has answered you well.
You can choose to ignore what I said about Rav Elya. RSk would not dare behave this way while Rav Elya was well. This includes the Dodelsohn fiasco, and all the 6-7 years of garbage over here. You can't go and create public wars, and start crying "private" when the tables turn. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
"The question is whether the information on which the heter is based is factual." So what I understand from your comment is if the facts are as RSK stated them then you would be fine with the heter. That would have been the correct way of doing things . But it isn't, RSK and RNG have been lynched without the facts being known by anyone and i"m pretty confident in stating they don't really care what RSK or RNG are saying or what the real facts are . As much as you want to salivate over someones psychiatric report sorry it isn't Klal Yisroels Business.
Rainer Daas - only the first question is whether the information on which the heter is factual the second question is whether the facts justify use of the heter. In the case of Tamar's "heter" the answer to both of these is a categorical no! It is clear that the mental health diagnoses were wrong and even if the were right they do not consistute a serious mum that would justify the heter - contrary to the psak of the therapist - one of which did not even speak with the husband.
3) question is whether a get could be obtained without the use of the heter. The answer to that is yes! Therefore eve if the husband's defect was great enough to justify a heter of annullment - but since the get could be obtained by making compromises in custody - Rav Moshe would not have given a heter.
Consequently Rav Moshe's heter can not be applied in this case because both
So what I understand from your comment is if the facts are as RSK stated them then you would be fine with the heter.
I am not qualified to be "fine" or not fine with the heter. For that you need legitimate poskim. But I am qualified to recognize that the information on which the heter is based, and the source from which it derives is highly suspicious. Your angry fulminations will not whitewash that fact.
You don't know the information that the heter was based on only what the bloggers are posting that only qualifies you as someone who hates RSK nothing to do with this situation.
From an excellent source close to Sholom K. that in my book is called the game of telephone your source will say that's not what I meant I heard it from someone who heard it from someone who thinks he heard it from RSK. just as reliable as a blog
He is raedy to accept it wheter he values it or not anyone that has spoken to RSK or the people involved know that RSK has said this all along that he would give all the information to R' Dovid and let him decide if it was correct or not. If Reb Dovid says its no good they will accept that as well. R' Shlomo Miller is the one that will not let that happen and if it does happen and Reb Dovid say it was ok HE WILL NO ACCEPT THAT! The quote from him was I am not mivatel my daas to anyone!
Not quite. Actually, not at all. Rabbi Greenblatt met with Rav Dovid. The Kamenetzkis have been desparately trying to get an appointment with him. I wonder if your initials are A.D., a sore loser at having the truth come out after RSK and RMK lied to Rav Miller -- only to subsequently have Rav Miller come out against them -- in a previous case.
Again, let him go to Rav Dovid immediately! What difference does it make to him what Rav Shlomo Miller thinks? He did not care what Rav Miller thought for the past two years - and it should not make a difference now. Please, take him to Rav Dovid right now! Without delay! Rav Dovid is not afraid of voicing his halachic ruling - to those who wish to listen.
The only difference is in the games. Rav Shlomo Miller will not allow RSK to save face for being megaleh ponim b'Torah shelo kahalacha. He will either retract, or pay the price b'zeh u'beboh. Rav Dovid will follow his father's approach. This is all about games. Again, if RSK is willing to listen to Rav Dovid, he can do so right now, without any preconditions and stipulations.
Especially considering that RSK did not feel he needs to have AF's participation or consent when he went heter shopping from rabbi to rabbi. When the tables turn, all-of-a-sudden he seeks to have all sorts of agreements. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
DId you read R' Sternbuch's psak and the reinforcement psak? Or the BDinim over the world protesting this Sha'aruryah? This alleged Heter is DOA. You heard the hespedim, the livaya is on the way. Geshtorben bagrobin arop fun mark.
This is a translation from Rav Moshe Sternbuch’s protest against the heter for Tamar Epstein to remarry without a Get:
“I heard from the Brisker Rav that when there is a serious problem, it should be dealt with by issuing a categorical prohibition, without giving detailed explanations. This is because if reasons for the objections are given, then it is possible for someone to argue and say they are wrong. Therefore also in this case, I am not coming forth except to encourage he who protests the heter and sanctifies G-d's name. His reward is exceedingly great.”
I hope you listened to the Novi during the Haftorah reading on Shabbos: ‘Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?’ Amos 3:6
Buddy,My intention was not to disparage Rav Elya. You had commented "it is of great wonderment how Rav Elya's talmidim are not properly stepping up to the plate." I'm trying to ascertain who these talmidim are, who among them is a talmid chacham that could step up to the plate and say something that would be taken seriously. That you can't (or refuse to) clarify your original statement says more about you than me...
Believe what you like, buddy, no skin off my nose. I know what I know, and it's not my job to convince you. And anyway, I don't think you have a open mind, so why bother.
He is not listed as a 'gaon'.
ReplyDeleteBy accepting the invitation to speak at the Pine River Village Shul, R Shalom Kaminetsky has left himself wide open to a frontal attack. Due to small size (this ain’t the Agudah Convention) and location (10 minute drive from BMG) this event can be easily exploited to help bring down one the culprits in this chillul Hashem. The following are a few suggestions:
ReplyDelete1) Twenty or so individuals show up to event demanding SK explain 'Daas Torah' re: heter. Distribute letters of Rabbanim. Video the showdown.
And/Or
2) Contact 'Adopt-A-Kollel' protesting the event.
3) Contact shuls that support Adopt-A-Kollel protesting event.
4) Apply pressure to Pine River Village Shul to cancel event.
I am sure there are other and better ideas.
The following contact information may be of use:
The Rabbi of the Pine River Village Shul is Rabbi Noson Boruch Herzka. His email is pinerivershul@gmail.com, current as of 2013.
Contact information for Adopt-A-Kollel: Yaakov Bernfeld Program Director Phone. 732.333.2483 Fax. 732.333.2484 email info@adoptakollel.org
The following is a link to an article from the Hamodia featuring Novominsker Rebbe and Harav Levin Advocating for Adopt-a-Kollel. From the 'adopt a kollel' website:
http://adoptakollel.org/PressCoverage/Midwest%20Hamodia.pdf
I guess that R' Shlomo Miller's letter isn't enough for the Lakewood community. Probably nothing in Lakewood will change, unless the roshei yeshiva come out with a letter against this travesty.
ReplyDeleteHe speaks all over the country and is usually well received. I have seen him advertised in several places this month alone.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone claim that Shalom is a Gaon or even gadol? he is just the son of RSK.
ReplyDeleteA Gaon does not deliver divrei Choisik
ReplyDeletecan someone who will be there ask him what he plans on doing to end this unfortunate saga ? what will be done to prevent this from happening again? someone needs to be held accountable. is it only when the FBI gets involved that things start to change? what good is an aguda convention if we cannot bring the most important issues to the table and end for once , RABBIS DESTROYING FAMILIES , CREATING VIRTUAL YESOMIM (and mamzeirim) ,DESTROYING KLAL YISRAEL
ReplyDeleteWhy is what Rav Shalom eats for dinner or where he goes to a melave malke or what kind of car he drives relevent to the issue at hand regarding the heter?
ReplyDeleteRosenbaum of Madison title is behind this organization and makes all the calls. Perhaps we can organize a demonstration at this function. Perhaps informing Rosenbaum about Sam if he does not already know will help as well.
ReplyDeleteThe Rabbi is not Rabbi Hertzka. You are in the right area but wrong Shul.
ReplyDeleteJust called Yaakov Bernfeld program line below. Some woman answered saying that the number is just affiliated with Adopt-A-Kollel and she has nothing to do with the choice of speaker. Will try the rabbi's email listed below.
ReplyDeleteI want to call them all but what am I telling them?
ReplyDeleteRNGreenblat, in his letter posted on this site, called him a gaon. Iwas making what ehud (for once, a simple statement) calls 'choizik.'
ReplyDeleteBerenfeld cell # 732-908-9999
ReplyDeleteI have just been informed that a protest is being organised. Call 908-274-1501 or email Lakewoodaskanus@gmail.com for more information.
ReplyDeleteI stand corrected. HaRav Nosson Boruch Herzka, shlita, is NOT the Rabbi of shul where Shalom K is to speak. HaRav Herzka is the Mara D’asra of the Pine River Bais Medrash in Lakewood. Rav Herzka, shlita, is the-son-in law of HaRav Baruch Sorotzkin zt"l, the son of HaRav Zalman Sorotzkin zt"l.
ReplyDeleteShalom K is to speak at: Congregation of Pine River Village 38 Goldcrest Drive Lakewood, NJ, 08701 phone: 732-367-7175
I do not know the name of the Rabbi.
Thank you very much. I made the correction in a new post.
ReplyDeleteThe cell phone of gabbai of Pine River VILLAGE is
ReplyDelete7323677175
Mr. Belsky
Please call him to protest his speaker
i Know that R Millers lackeys like Zucker are trying to make a name for themselves and their kanoies but the offer was made to go to Reb Dovid Feinstein Shlita and let him see all the facts and all the information about the case but they refuse to agree. If its so black and white it should be a no brainer to go to him. Lsheim Shomayim my foot
ReplyDeleteSimply register your protest against the speaker. He allowed a married woman to "remarry" with out a get..nuff said.
ReplyDeleteThe cell phone of gabbai of Pine River VILLAGE is
ReplyDelete7323677175
Mr. Belsky
Please call him to protest his speaker
Actually, it is black and white and Sholom K is now a public disgrace...the cat is out of the hat...
ReplyDeleteTsav harchoka of R'T' and Per ORA
ReplyDeleteCall the protest number and leave a message with a number where you can be reached.
ReplyDelete908-274-1501
Joe Rosenbaum's contact information:
ReplyDeleteOffice 732 333 2403
CELL 908 670 2164 (I hope this is current)
joe@madisontitle.com
I guess if your anonymous life exists on some blog and you declare someone a public disgrace you might be correct but in the real world there are real people and most of the world doesn't see it the way the bashers see it. Why wont they agree to go to Reb Dovid? there is no answer, which throws in to doubt the true motive of the Kanoyim
ReplyDeleteYour statement is false. He wasn't even there when she got married. I don't know all the facts in the story you definitely don't know the facts in the story. To go on a blog and to make questionable statements as fact is very wrong. Giving out private cell phone #'s is wrong too.
ReplyDeleteIs there a demonstration? Please announce a time and place.
ReplyDeleteA Bais Din to do what?
ReplyDeleteRule if a nogea bdaver (RSK ) can compile facts for a woman he's helping, not speak to the other side, and then ask a ninety year old Posek (who feels he was fooled and tricked) to 'trust' him that this is what needs to be done..and never tell the Posek that a Bais Din in Baltimore has been involved for years...and allow a woman to get married without a get...
We need a B"d for that?
ALL Rabbonim who have looked at this have concluded its complete nonsense!
O and Rainer Daas is your real name? Very brave of you to put your name out there...
Surly you jest. 'He wasn't there when she got married'?!
ReplyDeleteReally?
Your an intelligent fellow...you can do better than that!
What don't you know? Ill can help you out.
There is a demonstration to take place at the PRV Siimcha hall on Pine St. Lakewood.http://yudelstake.blogspot.com/2015/12/come-one-come-all-to-protest-by-sholom.html
ReplyDeleteA protest is being organized.
Call 908-274-1501 or
email Lakewoodaskanus@gmail.com for more information.
I called. He claimed it wasn't his call. Then he quickly hung up.
ReplyDeleteHe's feeling the pressure. Help out here guys
Nathan, RSK didn't pasken nor did he marry off the lady. Ask Zucker why RNG wrote the letter he did. to these gangsters you want to be associated with that's fine you'll end up in the same hole they will end up in Korach Vadosoy. As far as not giving my real name. I don't need my phone # posted just because I don't agree with your corrupt position.
ReplyDeleteI once spoke to Reb Dovid Feinstein. He does not make statements, although here may be a little different in that he may only need to issue a p'sak. Unfortunately, from that experience (and from others,) I do see him somewhat as a timid man, so I would be wary to have him decide anything controversial. ......
ReplyDeleteI think his real name is Reindeer.....
ReplyDeleteI needed Reb Dovid to sign a letter regarding something controversial. He said he doesn't do such things. When was the last time you saw Reb Dovid Feinstein take a stance? Can you show me where?
ReplyDeleteWhy wont they agree to go to Reb Dovid?
ReplyDeleteAgain with this nonsense? Rav Dovid's clear and unequivocal position is that Tamar is married to Aaron. Period.
Now, for your bogus claim. Who suggested going to Rav Dovid? Was it R. Shalom Kaminetzky? Was it Rav Shmuel? Is the not-answering-the-phone now going on in reverse - maybe a middah kneged midah? Please stop the lies. In the real world, if Reb Shalom refuses to admit that erred, then YU will the perfect fit for him.
Lets remember the previous Kaminetzky line: 'אינו ראוי שתורה תמסרה על ידו
Not taking stance is also a stance!
ReplyDeleteThere is an old saying"discretion is the better part of valor'!
Not everything is done in the open on the highest levels. No one knows what the CIA or the KGB or MOSSAD do or don't do. That is also a stance, and then some.!
So don't be a fool. RDF Feinstein did not hold back from signing letters and issuing expalanations during the recent Dodelson scandal, when a great nephew of RDF was under the gun from the Lakewood heavies who got a WRITTEN "heter" from American Moetzes Gedolim to go to the secular papers. Obviously Rav Dovid Feinstein did not agree with that and gave out letters with his signature on them that were published on this blog not too long ago.
So, at this time, since he has not given or signed any known written letter against R Notta Greeblatt, we can assume that "shtika kehoda'a" and that he at least does not oppose the Heter, even if he does not agree with it, which he may well agree with as far as we know because he has not said anything either way.
thus as long as the American Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, with R Dovid Feinstein as one of them, says nothing, then their colleague and friend R Shmuel Kaminetsky is safe, and so is R Notta Greenblatt, and so is the Heter, and Tamar can sleep well at night, for now.
This is becoming a classical Mexican standoff that no one will win. It should be clear by now, but some people are not letting it go. So be it, let's see what keeps on happening.
RSK didn't pasken nor did he marry off the lady.
ReplyDeletelol
He clearly did all the work. He clearly behaved inappropriately. If he wanted Rav Dovid's opinion, he certainly could have called Rav Dovid prior to callously seeking to "marry" off an already married woman.
Ask Zucker why RNG wrote the letter he did.
Why don't you tell us why he wrote it. Then, if you are attacking RNG's character - is that the type of person RSK relied upon to "marry" off an already married woman????? Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
If Rav Elya would be alive and well, you can be sure that RSK wouldn't dare do any of this nonsense. It is of great wonderment how Rav Elya's talmidim are not properly stepping up to the plate.
Rap you are reading tea leaves and have no understanding of what is going. Your diyukim are not substitutes for information
ReplyDeleteYeah, that is exactly what I thought were Reb Elya living today. ...Philly talmidim unite!
ReplyDeleteAny Philly talmidim here?
No, you're making out of this a Mexican hat dance, getting carried away snappin' the Rap. Rav Dovid tolding me TO MY FACE that he doesn't write letters. There is ONLY ONE letter on behalf of a talmid of his that I personally know, who also confirmed that his was the only such type letter that Reb Dovid EVER wrote. I also will contend that he told me that long before the letter you say you have seen.
ReplyDeleteShtika in this case (and in nowadays) is NOT k'hoda'ah. I'm afraid to say that it now means for the most part that people are afraid to speak out.
I also saw a rov on the Lower East Side who was sitting right next to Reb Dovid and made some criticism on tznius. I saw his reaction....... It is much easier to keep your mouth shut .......ironically in the cases where speaking out is required.
RSK is not any different then any other person that is involved in a court case he presented her side of the story with the facts he had to RNG Your not in the position nor is D Eidenson or anyone on this blog including myself in the position to make that determination if he acted inappropriately since no one has seen all the information that was provided. I am absolutely not attacking RNG its Zucker who is proudly stating how he is fulfilling R millers direction who lied to RNG and within a few hours of the writing it was on the blogs. RNG was told it would be a private letter.You are clueless as to knowing what Reb Elya would and wouldn't have done.
ReplyDeleteRav Dovid's clear and unequivocal position is that Tamar is married to Aaron. Period.
ReplyDeleteIs that a fact? So why is RSK so willing to go to him and let him have the final say on the matter? Why wont the other side take them up on the offer if its a fact what your saying? the answer is because they are not so convinced that he will agree with their position and if he doesn't what are they going to do? Call Reb Dovid all the nasty things that they have called anyone else that opposed their opinion?
It Really Is all up to this gabbai....og Pine River Village
ReplyDeletekeep calling 7323677175
Who exactly are Rav Elya's talmidim?
ReplyDelete@Rainer Daas What letter are you talking about and who is Zucker and how is he involved?
ReplyDeleteIt's not about where he goes to have melava malka. It's about being honored to speak at a function of בני תורה. Is a person who permits a married woman to commit adultery under the guise of a contrived so-called "heter"' qualified to give דברי חיזוק?
ReplyDeleteIs that a fact? So why is RSK so willing to go to him and let him have the final say on the matter?
ReplyDeleteWhy has RSK not yet gone to Rav Dovid? Why?
Why would he want anyone else to agree to this? What does he need this silly stipulation, especially when he didn't seek Rav Dovid's approval before "marrying" off an eishes ish.
Bottom line is you are lying. Is there a possibility that RSK feels that he can somehow save face by playing a game with Rav Dovid - a game he knows Rav Dovid will never agree to? I don't know, but it is silly talk. When RSK will get a letter from Rav Dovid that he agrees with his "heter," you'll have what to hang your hat on.
RSK is not any different then any other person that is involved in a court case he presented her side of the story
ReplyDeleteOf course there is a difference. He did not claim that he was just representing her side of the story. He was using his Rabbinic position as well his cloak of piousness in order to circumvent halacha. He sought to work outside of the normal halachic framework.
Your not in the position nor is D Eidenson or anyone on this blog including myself in the position to make that determination if he acted inappropriately
Every Talmid Chochom of note who has spoken and written about this say that he acted extremely inappropriately (and worse!).
since no one has seen all the information that was provided.
Excuse me? Just release all the information and allow the facts to speak for themselves. Why hide the facts and then have such a hard time defend RSK???
Buddy,
ReplyDeletewhy would ask an "idiot" and a "dishonest fool" any questions? What does this say about you?
I am sure that you do remember calling me those just a day or two ago, right? We can converse as soon as we are sure that you are willing to have an adult conversation. Good luck.
Huh? There are hundreds. Are you asking him to list them all?
ReplyDeleteNo, just the prominent talmidei chachamim among them.
ReplyDeleteI know you think that the public is entitled to all the information but unfortunately you are wrong. I am sure that neither AF or TE would want everything pasted on the blogs. RSG has stated he is willing to show ALL the information to Reb Dovid Feinstein and let him decide and they will follow whatever he says. RSM refuses to allow that. According to you every talmid chochom of note holds they are wrong why would Reb Dovid be any different? Why refuse the offer? The answer is that they are not interested in the truth they just plain and simply hate RSK.
ReplyDeleteThe question is if it did happen when Reb Elya was alive would he have dealt with it like this and the answer to that is no! He would have taken care of business and end of story not having anonymous bloggers spewing all the garbage they want and it being feed by agenda driven people.
There is no place that you can show that "he was using his Rabbinic position as well his cloak of piousness in order to circumvent halacha." Did he say RNG just ignore the halacha and do as I say? no he didn't, did RNG tell him its against halacha and he said well do it anyway? no! You want to make up nice cliches and type with BOLD letters post them on a blog that's nice but maybe you should get the facts straight beforehand. unless of course the idea is to win at all cost whether your right or wrong.
And as far as the letter is concerned find out from Zucker what he told RNG dont just quote the letter. other people in our history did that as well but is says Ayin tachas Ayin.
Lets have an honest discussion not that when you dont know the facts you make them up to fit your agenda.
A private letter that RNG was lied to about the intent and purpose of the letter in order to discredit RNG and RSG. Zucker is the guy who hoodwinked RNG.
ReplyDeleteEven a dishonest fool could sometimes provide accurate information...
ReplyDelete@Rainer Daas A private letter from RNG to RSM? How are you familiar that this is what transpired? And who is Zucker affiliated with?
ReplyDeleteThere are many. Heads of mosdos, rabbeim etc. I know a number of them myself.
ReplyDeleteNo reason, though, that he should take the trouble to provide it to his abuser.
ReplyDeleteWho is RSG?
ReplyDeleteI know you think that the public is entitled to all the information but
ReplyDeleteunfortunately you are wrong. I am sure that neither AF or TE would want
everything pasted on the blogs.
This is not just their private business at this point. This is a klal Yisrael issue.
There is no place that you can show that "he was using his Rabbinic
position as well his cloak of piousness in order to circumvent halacha."
Did he say RNG just ignore the halacha and do as I say? no he didn't,
did RNG tell him its against halacha and he said well do it anyway? no!
You are deliberately obscuring the matter at issue. The question is not whether this is "against halachah." The question is whether the information on which the heter is based is factual. That is what needs to be decided before any halachah question is put on the table. Sholom K was in fact trusted as to the truth of the information he provided because of his Rabbinic position and perceived piety. Had RNG not trusted him, he likely would have investigated the matter thoroughly or refused to get involved.
Who is RSG?
ReplyDeleteReb Dovid may not write letters, but he does sign them - see recent moetzes letter regarding OO, the Lipa ban and Slifkin ban.
ReplyDelete“So while it is true
ReplyDeleteand important to show that the annulment was not valid and the resulting
children would be mamzerim - but there is a much greater question that needs to
be address. The larger question is about the apparent massive incompetence and
corruption at the highest levels of so-called Orthodox leadership in the United
States.”
Today’s daf hayomi, explains the curses in Deut.
27:15-26:
“Cursed be anyone who makes a sculptured or molten
image, abhorred by the Lord, a craftsman’s handiwork, and sets it up in secret.—And
all the people shall respond, Amen. Cursed be he who insults his father or mother.—And
all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who moves his fellow countryman’s landmark.—And
all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who misdirects a blind person on
his way.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who subverts the
rights of the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow.—And all the people shall
say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with his father’s wife, for he has removed his
father’s garment.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies
with any beast.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with
his sister, whether daughter of his father or of his mother.—And all the people
shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with his mother-in- law.—And all the
people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who strikes down his fellow countryman in
secret.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who accepts a bribe in
the case of the murder of an innocent person.— And all the people shall say,
Amen. Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Teaching and observe
them.—And all the people shall say, Amen “(Deut. 27:15-26).
Sotah 37b:
“R. Judah b. Nahmani, the lecturer [It was customary
for a teacher to impart the lesson to a lecturer who delivered it to the
disciples.] of Simeon b. Lakish, expounded: The whole section [of the blessings
and curses] refers to none other than the adulterer and adulteress. [It
states,] “Cursed be anyone who makes a sculptured or molten image, abhorred by
the Lord, a craftsman’s handiwork, and sets it up in secret.—And all the people
shall respond, Amen” (Deut. 27:15). Does it suffice merely to pronounce cursed
with such a person! [The penalty is death] But it alludes to one who has
immoral intercourse, and begets a son who goes to live among heathens [Being
the offspring of an adulterous union, he is debarred from the Assembly and
cannot marry an Israelite woman.] and worships idols; cursed be the father and
mother of this man since they were the cause of his sinning. [And not only with
idolatry. His heathen association will lead him to commit the other offences in
this section, provoking upon his parents the enumerated curses; v., however,
Rashi.] Our Rabbis taught: “When the Lord
your God brings you into the land that you are about to enter and possess, you
shall pronounce the blessing at Mount Gerizim and the curse at Mount Ebal” (Deut.
11:29).
רש"י
סוטה ל"ז ב'
אלא
זה הבא על הערוה - אשת איש והוליד ממזר ומתוך בושתו שאסור לבא בקהל ואינו מוצא אשה
הוא הולך לבין העובדי כוכבים ועובד עבודת כוכבים ארורים אלה שעשאוהו לעבוד פסל ומסכה
וכן דורש את כולן כל אחת לפי פשטה אותו של עריות כגון שוכב עם חותנתו ואשת אביו ואם
אחותו כולם באשת איש ולמיקם בתרי ארורי שוכב עם כל בהמה אשת איש שעשתה מעשה בהמה שמנאפת
מקלל אביו ואמו הבא על אשת איש מזלזל באביו ובאמו שגידלו גידולין רעים בביתם משגה עור
מפתה אשת איש שהיא סומא בדבר ואינה יודעת עונשו כמוהו משיג גבול רעהו בא על אשתו הרי
הוא השיג גבול מכה רעהו בסתר גורם לו בלחש סתריו שתמות בבדיקת מים המרים לוקח שוחד
להכות נפש לוקח שוחד להיות עוקב אחר המנאף ולפתות לו אשת איש וגורם לו מיתה מטה משפט
גר יתום איני יודע לדורשו.
“So while it is true and important to show that the annulment was not valid and the resulting children would be mamzerim - but there is a much greater question that needs to be address. The larger question is about the apparent massive incompetence and corruption at the highest levels of so-called Orthodox leadership in the United States.”
ReplyDeleteToday’s daf hayomi, explains the curses in Deut. 27:15-26:
“Cursed be anyone who makes a sculptured or molten image, abhorred by the Lord, a craftsman’s handiwork, and sets it up in secret.—And all the people shall respond, Amen. Cursed be he who insults his father or mother.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who moves his fellow countryman’s landmark.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who misdirects a blind person on his way.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who subverts the rights of the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with his father’s wife, for he has removed his father’s garment.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with any beast.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with his sister, whether daughter of his father or of his mother.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who lies with his mother-in- law.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who strikes down his fellow countryman in secret.—And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he who accepts a bribe in
the case of the murder of an innocent person.— And all the people shall say,
Amen. Cursed be he who will not uphold the terms of this Teaching and observe them.—And all the people shall say, Amen “(Deut. 27:15-26).
Sotah 37b:
“R. Judah b. Nahmani, the lecturer [It was customary for a teacher to impart the lesson to a lecturer who delivered it to the disciples.] of Simeon b. Lakish, expounded: The whole section [of the blessings and curses] refers to none other than the adulterer and adulteress. [It states,] “Cursed be anyone who makes a sculptured or molten image, abhorred by the Lord, a craftsman’s handiwork, and sets it up in secret.—And all the people
shall respond, Amen” (Deut. 27:15). Does it suffice merely to pronounce cursed with such a person! [The penalty is death] But it alludes to one who has immoral intercourse, and begets a son who goes to live among heathens [Being the offspring of an adulterous union, he is debarred from the Assembly and cannot marry an Israelite woman.] and worships idols; cursed be the father and mother of this man since they were the cause of his sinning. [And not only with idolatry. His heathen association will lead him to commit the other offences in this section, provoking upon his parents the enumerated curses; v., however, Rashi.] Our Rabbis taught: “When the Lord
your God brings you into the land that you are about to enter and possess, you shall pronounce the blessing at Mount Gerizim and the curse at Mount Ebal” (Deut. 11:29).
רש"י סוטה ל"ז ב'
אלא זה הבא על הערוה - אשת איש והוליד ממזר ומתוך בושתו שאסור לבא בקהל ואינו מוצא אשה הוא הולך לבין העובדי כוכבים ועובד עבודת כוכבים ארורים אלה שעשאוהו לעבוד פסל ומסכה וכן דורש את כולן כל אחת לפי פשטה אותו של עריות כגון שוכב עם חותנתו ואשת אביו ואם אחותו כולם באשת איש ולמיקם בתרי ארורי שוכב עם כל בהמה אשת איש שעשתה מעשה בהמה שמנאפת מקלל אביו ואמו הבא על אשת איש מזלזל באביו ובאמו שגידלו גידולין רעים בביתם משגה עור מפתה אשת איש שהיא סומא בדבר ואינה יודעת עונשו כמוהו משיג גבול רעהו בא על אשתו הרי הוא השיג גבול מכה רעהו בסתר גורם לו בלחש סתריו שתמות בבדיקת מים המרים לוקח שוחד להכות נפש לוקח שוחד להיות עוקב אחר המנאף ולפתות לו אשת איש וגורם לו מיתה מטה משפט גר יתום איני יודע לדורשו.
RSG has stated he is willing to show ALL the information to Reb Dovid Feinstein and let him decide and they will follow whatever he says.
ReplyDeleteAgain, let RSK do this without delay. This should not be contingent on any other bully tactics and backroom deals. Let him sign or publicly state that he will listen to Rav Dovid go show Rav Dovid his info and accept the psak, without delay.
As I have noted, which you chose to ignore, RSK does not value Rav Dovid's psak. His contempt is so far as to promoting the whole Doelsohn Chilul Hashem, going after The Weiss' Parnassah and even going after MTJ - in a very public way.
As to the other points, @kishkeyum has answered you well.
You can choose to ignore what I said about Rav Elya. RSk would not dare behave this way while Rav Elya was well. This includes the Dodelsohn fiasco, and all the 6-7 years of garbage over here. You can't go and create public wars, and start crying "private" when the tables turn. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
Ah, something to look into. I, though, am still, nonetheless, hesitant to have him decide on something by HIMSELF, but thanks for the information.
ReplyDeleteRSK, Typo. Hope that wasn't too misleading that i will be ostracized for my error
ReplyDelete"The question is whether the information on which the heter is based is factual." So what I understand from your comment is if the facts are as RSK stated them then you would be fine with the heter. That would have been the correct way of doing things . But it isn't, RSK and RNG have been lynched without the facts being known by anyone and i"m pretty confident in stating they don't really care what RSK or RNG are saying or what the real facts are . As much as you want to salivate over someones psychiatric report sorry it isn't Klal Yisroels Business.
ReplyDeleteOne more thing. ...having you said that, and me having thought it over a bit, I still think his signature appears very seldom. TY
ReplyDeleteRainer Daas - only the first question is whether the information on which the heter is factual the second question is whether the facts justify use of the heter. In the case of Tamar's "heter" the answer to both of these is a categorical no!
ReplyDeleteIt is clear that the mental health diagnoses were wrong and even if the were right they do not consistute a serious mum that would justify the heter - contrary to the psak of the therapist - one of which did not even speak with the husband.
3) question is whether a get could be obtained without the use of the heter. The answer to that is yes! Therefore eve if the husband's defect was great enough to justify a heter of annullment - but since the get could be obtained by making compromises in custody - Rav Moshe would not have given a heter.
Consequently Rav Moshe's heter can not be applied in this case because both
Rde-I would spell check the word architect in the title hear. No need to post this I'm just letting you know)
ReplyDeleteThe Lipa concert ban and the Slifkin book ban were fairly controversial signatures he granted.
ReplyDeleteSo what I understand from your comment is if the facts are as RSK stated them then you would be fine with the heter.
ReplyDeleteI am not qualified to be "fine" or not fine with the heter. For that you need legitimate poskim. But I am qualified to recognize that the information on which the heter is based, and the source from which it derives is highly suspicious. Your angry fulminations will not whitewash that fact.
You don't know the information that the heter was based on only what the bloggers are posting that only qualifies you as someone who hates RSK nothing to do with this situation.
ReplyDeletePlease name some of the prominent talmidei chachamim among them.
ReplyDeleteYudel
ReplyDeleteYour the man.
Let show a the Philly guys that they don't own or have a monopoly over Thorah
Sorry, but no.
ReplyDeleteWrong. I actually do know what it was based on from an excellent source close to Sholom K. You're the one who's ignorant and partisan.
ReplyDeleteFrom an excellent source close to Sholom K. that in my book is called the game of telephone your source will say that's not what I meant I heard it from someone who heard it from someone who thinks he heard it from RSK. just as reliable as a blog
ReplyDeleteHe is raedy to accept it wheter he values it or not anyone that has spoken to RSK or the people involved know that RSK has said this all along that he would give all the information to R' Dovid and let him decide if it was correct or not. If Reb Dovid says its no good they will accept that as well. R' Shlomo Miller is the one that will not let that happen and if it does happen and Reb Dovid say it was ok HE WILL NO ACCEPT THAT! The quote from him was I am not mivatel my daas to anyone!
ReplyDeleteNot quite. Actually, not at all.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Greenblatt met with Rav Dovid. The Kamenetzkis have been desparately trying to get an appointment with him.
I wonder if your initials are A.D., a sore loser at having the truth come out after RSK and RMK lied to Rav Miller -- only to subsequently have Rav Miller come out against them -- in a previous case.
Why doesn't RSK present the case to Rav Dovid himself, even if RSM doesn't participate in it?
ReplyDeleteAny reason why not? Name 3 of them who are prominent talmidei chachamim. Choose any 3.
ReplyDeleteHe is raedy to accept it
ReplyDeleteAgain, let him go to Rav Dovid immediately! What difference does it make to him what Rav Shlomo Miller thinks? He did not care what Rav Miller thought for the past two years - and it should not make a difference now. Please, take him to Rav Dovid right now! Without delay! Rav Dovid is not afraid of voicing his halachic ruling - to those who wish to listen.
The only difference is in the games. Rav Shlomo Miller will not allow RSK to save face for being megaleh ponim b'Torah shelo kahalacha. He will either retract, or pay the price b'zeh u'beboh. Rav Dovid will follow his father's approach. This is all about games. Again, if RSK is willing to listen to Rav Dovid, he can do so right now, without any preconditions and stipulations.
Especially considering that RSK did not feel he needs to have AF's participation or consent when he went heter shopping from rabbi to rabbi. When the tables turn, all-of-a-sudden he seeks to have all sorts of agreements. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander.
ReplyDeleteNobody owes you any sort lists. Comments that are intended for mature and intellectually honest people are obviously not meant for you.
ReplyDeleteThe sheer stupidity of trying to disparage Rav Elya is quite telling about yourself. Oh, and Norman Lamm as well.
Can anyone name one posek who has approved of this protest gathering?
ReplyDeleteDId you read R' Sternbuch's psak and the reinforcement psak? Or the BDinim over the world protesting this Sha'aruryah? This alleged Heter is DOA. You heard the hespedim, the livaya is on the way. Geshtorben bagrobin arop fun mark.
ReplyDeleteThis is a translation from Rav Moshe Sternbuch’s protest against the heter for Tamar Epstein to remarry without a Get:
ReplyDelete“I heard from the Brisker Rav that when there is a serious problem, it should be dealt with by issuing a categorical prohibition, without giving detailed explanations. This is because if reasons for the objections are given, then it is possible for someone to argue and say they are wrong. Therefore also in this case, I am not coming forth except to encourage he who protests the heter and sanctifies G-d's name. His reward is exceedingly great.”
I hope you listened to the Novi during the Haftorah reading on Shabbos: ‘Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid?’ Amos 3:6
Buddy,My intention was not to disparage Rav Elya.
ReplyDeleteYou had commented "it is of great wonderment how Rav Elya's talmidim are not properly stepping up to the plate."
I'm trying to ascertain who these talmidim are, who among them is a talmid chacham that could step up to the plate and say something that would be taken seriously.
That you can't (or refuse to) clarify your original statement says more about you than me...
I not going to post the names of uninvolved people just b/c you demand I do.
ReplyDeleteBelieve what you like, buddy, no skin off my nose. I know what I know, and it's not my job to convince you. And anyway, I don't think you have a open mind, so why bother.
ReplyDeleteReb Dovid does not want to get involved if only one side is in agreement to come to him.
ReplyDeleteRSM isn't one of the sides in this case, so why is
ReplyDeleteRSM needed for RSK to go to Rav Dovid Feinstein?