;Rav Chaim Kanievsky
Rav Sariel Rosenberg
Rav Yehuda Silman
Rav Nissim Karelitz
Rav Chaim Wosner
Rav Shmuel Eliezer Stern
Rav Yitzchok Zilberstein
Received this from Machon Taam V'Daas
This has appeared in a large number of Hebrew publications (Including a second version of the letter that appeared earlier)
bhol .ladaat.info/ kooker kikar
Received this from Machon Taam V'Daas
This has appeared in a large number of Hebrew publications (Including a second version of the letter that appeared earlier)
bhol .ladaat.info/ kooker kikar
היהדות החרדית בארה"ב ובעולם סוערת בתקופה האחרונה בעקבות 'היתר' שניתן לאשה בארה"ב להינשא לשוק בלא גט פיטורין כדין מבעלה הראשון, בטענה שהקידושין הראשונים התבטלו מדין 'מקח טעות'. תקופה קצרה לאחר נתינת ההיתר, רב סידר לה קידושין בארה"ב עם יהודי.
כזכור, גדולי הפוסקים וראשי הישיבות פרסמו מכתבי מחאה חריפים כנגד ההיתר, כאשר את המאבק מובילים מרן פוסק הדור הגר"מ שטרנבוך שליט"א, ואתו עמו הגאון הגדול רבי אהרן פלדמן שליט"א חבר מועצת גדולי התורה בארה"ב וראש ישיבת נר ישראל בבולטימור.
בחשיפה ראשונית, מתפרסם כעת מכתבם של מרנן ורבנן גדולי ישראל שליט"א - מרן הגר"ח קניבסקי שליט"א, ומרן הגר"נ קרליץ שליט"א, ומרנן הגאונים רבי יצחק זילברשטיין שליט"א, ורבי חיים מאיר וואזנר שליט"א , שהוסיפו את חתימתם על מכתבם של הרבנים הגאונים רבי שריאל רוזנברג שליט"א ורבי יהודה סילמן שליט"א, שכתבו דברים חריפים ביותר כנגד ה'היתר'. (המכתב מצורף).
במקביל, בארה"ב פורסם בימים האחרונים מכתבם החריף של גדולי הרבנים בארה"ב וקנדה, אשר כתבו בתוך דבריהם שעפ"י מקורות חז"ל יתכן ש'היתר' זה עומד בעוכרינו וגורם לסכנה גדולה מחרב בני ישמעאל המונף על בני ישראל - "כהיום יש סכנה לכלל ישראל מחרב בני ישמעאל, ויש שואלים על איזה חטא בא צרות כאלו, ולא נביא אנוכי ולא בן נביא, אנא מתניתא ידענא, חרב באה לעולם על המורים בתורה שלא כהלכה, ואין לך מורים בתורה שלא כהלכה יותר מזה שמתירים אשת איש לעלמא בלי שום גט"
על המכתב חתומים הגאון הגדול רבי שלמה מילר שליט"א ראש הכולל בטורונטו, הגאון הגדול רבי אלי' דב וואכטפוגל שליט"א ראש ישיבת זכרון מנחם סאוט פאלסבורג, והגאון הישיש משה גרין שליט"א ראש ישיבה דמאנסי.
Perhaps part of his reason why he's afraid of trouble from B'nai Yishmoel (aside from their proximity), is because Yishmoel took 9 out of 10 kavim of z'nus that came down to the world, aside from the Medrash that states that z'nus brings retzicha to the world. ...
ReplyDeletebaruch hashem! i was waiting for this!
ReplyDeleteI find it hard to believe that Rav Chaim was agreeing to anything but the original letter from the Beis Din of Baltimore.
ReplyDeleteRemember that we first saw this (cut & pasted?) letter in the same collection of letters that fudged the dates in Rav Nota's letters this reversing their order of appearance.
Rav Chaim may disagree with Rav Nota and Rav Shmuel but I do not believe that he signed to anything that included "meharsayich umachrivayich..."
Not sure what why you don't believe Reb Chaim signed there are many other Gedolim that signed as well. Yes I am sure Reb chaim used strong language when dealing with the severe issue and chiilul Hashem and disregard to Halacha.
ReplyDeleteDaas Torah,
ReplyDeleteIs this not the same letter from R Chaim that you had posted last week but took down because Bnei Brak told you they wanted to get more signatures? Did anything come of that? This appears to be the same signatures (R Chaim, R Nissim Karelitz R Chaim M Wosner etc.)
GENTLEMEN, IF AUTHENTIC, THEN ITS SEALS THE CASE! You see no one in this generation can consider himself holier than him to dispute in Halacha. If he protests, then rest assured that Greenblatt and Kaminetsky have erred, and if they have erred, woe to the rest of us in America that look up to our Rabbis as being divine people
ReplyDeleteThe second part of the Pasuk that brings the sword is eyvut haDin. The appeal for the verdict of Binyamin Satz came exactly at the time when the Arabs started with this wave of terrorist attacks.
ReplyDeletehttp://nachlaotchildabuse.blogspot.com/2015/10/the-verdict-for-appeal-of-binyamin-satz.html
http://nachlaotchildabuse.blogspot.com/2015/10/an-article-from-israeli-site-mishpat.html
Unfortunately, when you remove the hyperbole, these letters actually are a very tepid response, a mouse's squeak as opposed to a lion's roar. All the Baltimore Bais Din is saying in their letter is that as far as they know (as at July 2015), Tamar Epstein is an "Ayshes Ish" and if anyone knows of any change in circumstances as to why she should not be considered as such, they should bring it to the attention of the Bais Din because "Ayshes Ish" is a very serious matter.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Chaim Kanievsky signed a short addendum that that suggests that he agrees with the Baltimore Bais Din, meaning that "Ayshes Ish" is a very serious matter and that everyone should avoid marrying a woman who is still married to another man.
Nothing else. Not a word about the Kaminetskys, Rav Greenblatt, or the validity (or rather lack thereof) of the "hetter"..
Not from R' Chaim, not from R' Nissin Karelitz, nor R' Yitschock Zilberstein, R'av Wosner or R' Shmeul Eliezer Stern. The heavy guns are still silent.
If this were Texas Hold 'em I'd say we've been hammered with a deuce and a seven while the Kaminetskys are holding pocket rockets (I'm getting ready for "nittel"). What do we do? Double Down? Raise? If they call, we got nuthin' gentlemen.
Remember when people said you must be wrong because no other Rabbanim were against the heter? I guess we now know that it isn't necessarily true.
ReplyDeleteThey were saying over in BMG today in the name of someone who was present when Reb Chaim signed that he read every word written, said its all poshut, asked for a pen and signed. Then he told the people present that it's a mitzvah rabbah to be rodef all those involved in the heter regardless of whether they are roshei yeshiva or not, until the couple separate. He added that unfortunately klal Yisroel has seen roshei yeshiva do tremendous damage before.
ReplyDeleteSo the fear is that Yisroel is taking a bigger part of the pie away from yishmoel?
ReplyDeleteI have heard from a reliable source that Rav Chaim did not sign any letter
ReplyDeleteyes it is the same letter. Apparently it has been released through Satmar and is no longer a "secret" as I seen by the number of publications that have simultaneously publlished it.
ReplyDeleteI'm saying that estimating with the yardstick of midah k'neged midah, Yishmoel, the epitome of z'nus, of all nations, strikes at us to indicate that that's what we are deficient in which brings those tzoros from them, aside from the Medrash that states that z'nus brings retzicha to the world. .......
ReplyDeletePutting out names in such direct language is almost never done. It violates protocol.
ReplyDeleteNot fully legibile. But a few points:
ReplyDelete1) First letter from Baltimore Beis Din says that both sides went to civil courts without authorization from BD. Also says there was no way to restore shalom bayis, despite claim of some here that the right counseling could do it. If so, then why was he withholding a get? All custody issues were settled 2 years ago in secular court at time of divorce.
2) The fact that Israeli poskim disagree is common in many matters. They would all be against college and even high school. But in USA it is standard to go. They would all oppose army service and the concept of Yeshivot Hesder, but Dati Leumi poskim are in favor.
3) Do they oppose all annulments, or simply that this was not done through a beis din, as letter claims, and that a daas yachid is insufficient. If the latter, then didn't we read on this blog that other poskim were also involved, like Rabbi Shmuel Feurst?
From what I could make out, there was no discussion of halachic considerations, rather procedural objections.
*The heavy guns are still silent.*
ReplyDeleteLet me teach you a thing or two about weapony and WMD's. This Baltimore BD letter is in reponse to RNG's HETER al haMETER, and after having ALL things considered, bottom line TE/F is an Eishes ish. In reference to this Baltimore letter on the heter, The heavy Top Gunners and Heavy Bombers fired those laser guided missiles, of the likes which eliminated Sheikh Yassin al hagalgalim homing in on it's target, that never fails, leaving no trails. So much so, that he never even knew what hit him, and Sheikh Yassin is still holding his own, as if still riding his high horse wheelchair somewhere in oblivion. Similar of the Sword Smith that Yoav ben Tsruya tried out his newly made sword on, feeling only the cool breeze of the chod hachanis velahat hacherev. Who in the world still yet doesn't know to whom it is/was targeted, Mr. Bas HaYAano? Haterem teida ki ovdo kol haKnufyo? We are already after Osso Boiker veGam Loylo. Wake up and smell the Coffee! You got nuttin because you didn't get it. Get it?
that is interesting - why have they not posulled RSK & Son ?
ReplyDeleteAnd if all they have said is that eishet ish is a terrible thing, then it is not much of a statement.
Sounds very credible......
ReplyDeleteDo the Bnai Torah at BMG usually spend their precious learning time discussing "hock" and 10th-hand rumors?
ReplyDeleteAdmirably, on this blog the author shares credible information, original documents etc. and not unsubstantiated rumors.
What protocol? Don't you understand that Reb chaim and the other Gedolim are aggravated and protesting a cardinal sin. They are real Gedolim faithful and true and don't care about power or money there only concern is the Ribono shel Olam and kvod shmayim. At this point the chasidoshe velt protested the litvishe velt protested the only ones that didn't are those that belong to a political party and follow strict orders of one or two benefactors.
ReplyDeletePutting out names in such direct language is 'almost' never done.", you say? Being "mattir" an "Ayshes Ish" on such flimsy, fraudulent grounds has NEVER been done, period, (at least not in the chareidi world.)
ReplyDelete"It violates protocol", you say? Well, the "psak" , not only violates protocol, it violates the very foundation on which the Torah is based. The relationship of Klal Yisroel to Hashem is described as a marriage contract. " וארשתיך לי לעולם ", writes the נביא. As such, we believe this covenant to be sacrosanct, permanent, enduring, constant, unconditional, unalterable, and unmodifiable.
Like a Jewish marriage.
איה ספר כריתות אמכם? , asks ישעיהו , rhetorically, suggesting that the only way to break our "marriage" vow would be through a ספר כריתות, which, of course does not exist, for we are the nation and the bride of Hashem for eternity.
But why is this so? Can we not claim that קימו וקבלו was based on our understanding of צור ישראל ? Isn't He supposed to be the עזרת ישראל ? Why did He not protect us during the Holocaust when we lost our best and our brightest? Why are we still the most despised among the nations? Why does He not redeem us at long last as He promised He would?
Why can we not therefore claim that Hashem deceived us, (G-d forbid!, חס מלהזכיר! )? What can we not claim that our acceptance of Him and His Torah was " קידושי טעות ", based on our faulty understanding of Him and how He intends to fulfill His vows? That no one, knowing what our future would be like would ever accept what Hashem has put us through?
No, no no, a thousand times no! ובכל זאת שמך לא שכחנו We would never for a moment abandon our faith in Him.
But if אישות which is but a משל for our relationship with הקב"ה can be abrogated through a " knaitsh" or a "grobber finger", bypassing the remedy ordained by Hashem himself in His Holy Torah, why can we not use inductive reasoning and apply the same tautological argument to קבלת התורה ? After all, if a = b, and b = c, does it not logically follow that "a" should = c ?
The crimes committed against Aharon Friedman, sadly to say, do not arouse my ire. People hurting other people is unfortunately a common occurrence, and I have become inured to it. Although I know that I ought to be more troubled by Aharon's suffering, regrettably I can still sleep quite well at night regardless. I know that true Judge will mete out justice in accordance with His Will..
However, the flippancy with which the "issur" of אשת איש has now been treated galls me immensely. To me it is a statement that the Torah does not demand blind obedience (which it does), more importantly it is a statement that one need not accept a Gezeirah מן השמים if you have a clever Rabbi.
There can be no doubt that in the eyes of the המון עם the sacristy of אישות has been undermined by this "psak" . Yet the self-interest of the individual has trumped the overall כבוד התורה . I cannot understand the hesitancy and the diplomatic gentility with which our "leaders" approach this outrage. What am I missing here? Direct language violates protocol? Than let protocol be d_____, I say! במקום שיש חילול השם אין חולקים כבוד לרב
And there cannot be a greater חילול השם than the Chilul of קדושת .ישראל
reliable source?
ReplyDeleteThis message is clearly for ORA, The RY who is it's POSEK, vechol meshorsov horshoim! They are next.
ReplyDelete" it's a mitzvah rabbah to be rodef all those involved"
I heard from a more reliable source that he did
ReplyDeleteBarry, custody issues were NOT resolved. Secular court had no right or authorization under halacha to "resolve" custody or any other issues regarding a Jewish divorce. One party going to non-Jewish court and getting a judgement from the non-Jewish budgets utilizing non-Jewish laws does NOT resolve it. Custody and all other issues MUST be resolved by beis din and beis din only. Otherwise it is unresolved.
ReplyDeleteSorry, John, that you had to waste so many paragraphs of your life on me when I'm on board with what you are saying. I agree that sharper language is called for, but unfortunately, people are afraid for POLITICALLY CORRECT reasons, but really they would write stronger.
ReplyDeleteYechiel, please see my response to John Hallmark
ReplyDeleteNo, they don't. Clearly
ReplyDeleteIt's getting more obvious as time goes on that the K strategy is to run the clock down they claim they're working on something they claim they want to go to the r' dovid( which happens to be another brilliant distraction since r dovid has never ever gotten involved in any controversy whatsoever expecting him to get involved here is beyond expectation and if they really wanted or really thought that he would support their side they can go to him without anyone else coming along with them ) they claim there will be a retraction in reality just waiting for it all quiet down and then laugh all the way to the bank(heard from k supporters)
ReplyDeleteOn the face of it, when a farmer sells his horse there was more procedure and transparency then this landmark decision, you can't even compare it to the procedure of a small Claims Court ,it's simply a disgrace . I don't think anybody at this point thinks it was the right decision hence you haven't seen any justification for this decision. the reason why the rabbis might be holding back is because the K and Company seem to portray themselves as people who are willing to negotiate and therefore hope is held out that something can be worked out and that way it won't go down as a decision which the less orthodox can use for their benefit . But what really really is happening here is the rabbis are being played by the K and co because the I'd are just waiting it out. simply put the rabbis have chosen bad strategy, nothing more ,everybody knows what they're talking about but they're trying to give the k's a way out
ReplyDeletehuh?
ReplyDeleteDuh!
ReplyDeleteIt appears that you are right, they're just keeping quiet and hoping/waiting for it to blow over and die down. What can be done to ensure that that does not happen?
ReplyDeleteWhen i made that statement , they were silent. Things have reached a tipping point now.
ReplyDeleteHowever, not many of them have named RSK or put him in non-psak category, ie to delist him as a posek.
At this point all these signatures are meaningless. It is all a bandwagon. The only one that counts, really, is Reb Shlomo Miller.
ReplyDeleteyou are clearly wrong on that
ReplyDeleteIn your opinion, of course. I am expressing my opinion.
ReplyDeleteRYGB, Rav Chaim Kanievsky and all the other gedolim that their cues from Rav Shlomo Miller?
ReplyDeleteR' Shlomo Miller? An odd choice. How do you figure that?
ReplyDeleteIt was his son that claimed he showed his father, only to declare Meolam lo hitarti etc... blah blah... vechulay. I would like to think that he duped his Father. Does his signature function Officially anywhere on this Fiasco in lieu of a DAYAN? More and more Questions arise by the minute. What I ask you now is, do you still think that all this by RNG was beYoisher, uvEmes, ube Lev Somim? Or was it beYodin? Then why doesn't he inform the couple, hey' hop'? Don't forget that RNG is ROSHO VERUBO in the EYE of this STORM. RSK jr. is small potatoes as mailman next to him. For all we know, In a way, the arrangement is of the Aleksander Mokdon kind, 'Moishovoi b'Philly, uMlachto b'NJ.
ReplyDeleteOf course - I was concerned that you took your opinion as established fact
ReplyDeletefine one post where I claimed RNG was beYosher! I had never even heard of him untilt his scandal broke out, and i questioned if he is actually a Gadol!
ReplyDeleteWhere is the American Moetzes? Why have they not condemned this travesty?
ReplyDeleteDoes that somehow make her less of an Eishes Ish?
ReplyDeleteKeep up the good work ehud!
ReplyDelete... but tell me .. where do you find the e-n-e-r-g-y?
Sunk with the Titanic, when traveling overseas to a family........
ReplyDeleteWell, how about backing up your expressed opinion with logic and/or facts?
ReplyDeleteEhud writes “Houston, theyv'e
ReplyDeletegot a tremendous problem. If and when they retract, more lies will come to
light, and sof dovor is that T.E. will disclose that After the failing to
procure a Get she was coached onto Plan B to concoct up this story built on
falsifications and lies by non other than .............. and heads will roll!
Why did she not ever mention this nice fairy tale at BD before Chiyuv Get,
after Chiyuv Get, in her Diaries, at Court or anywhere else? Besides, does she
even know of such Tayanas of Mekach taus. What about this Savra veKibla al
Tnay? There is no such thing altogether. It HAD to be that she was coached!!! ”
My theory is that Susan coached Tamar. Susan wrote the JOFA guide, see http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2015/12/no-fault-divorce-frum-lawyers.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/IjWSM+(Daas+Torah+-+Issues+of+Jewish+Identity).
In Susan’s 11/4/2015 court papers to the NYS Court of
Appeals she writes “Mr. Aranoff has lied to this Court and to the lower courts
for decades when he claimed that his bogus, unrecognized Israeli divorce was
valid.”
From the Tears and heart rendering Cries of the Kinderlech that have been ripped away from their Tattie's LOVING ARMS!!! B"H for this, Shomea kol bichyos, Bikesh es haNirdof!
ReplyDeleteתחזקנה ידיכם!
ReplyDeleteNot necessary. Quite obvious.
ReplyDeleteOf course it does. Not in the literal sense, as she is not responsible for the mess in any event, not in Earth nor in Heaven, as she followed psakim of accepted rabbonim from the get-go. As far as the new couple is concerned, there can be no ta'anah ON THEM at all. The question is whether the psak is accepted or not vis-a-vis any children they may have. And in that respect, dismissing signatories as bandwagon-jumpers does diminish her public persona as an Eishes Ish.
ReplyDeleteHe the primary posek for the Litvishe yeshiva velt in North America today. All the Chassidic signatures are meaningless because their future kids will not be part of that world anyway.
ReplyDeleteOf course!
ReplyDeleteBut she knows the basis of the heter is a lie. It is one thing to say "I rely on a gadol - against the whole world because he is gadol and protected from error," and to say" I know the facts the gadol was given are wrong and he was tricked into giving his psak but I will rely on the fact that said it is mutar." The former is moral and spiritual courage the latter is not.
ReplyDeleteLitvish kids and Chasidic/heimish kids have a heavy rate of marrying each other.
ReplyDeleteSo anyone can do anything, and be free of responsibility in heaven, so long as they found a rabbi who approved of their action?
ReplyDeleteIt is quite obvious the contrary. My proof? Is the logic that if you ask anybody in Eretz Yisroel if Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav Moshe Sternbuch, Rav Nissim Karelitz and others get their mind made up by Rav Shlomo Miller, they would definitely disagree, putting it mildly. ...
ReplyDeleteNo one was tricked. The facts as set out by Reb Shalom are accurate. Reb Shmuel and Reb Nota based their heter on those facts. You can dispute the heter - as I have said numerous times, I am not taking a position on it - but the facts were and are correct.
ReplyDeleteA recognized rabbi? YES! YES! YES!
ReplyDeleteNot that heavy that it would constitute a problem.
ReplyDeleteIs this your view as an expert in mental health that the facts are correct? Or are you just voicing your opinion based on what?
ReplyDeleteAre you basing yourself on the psychiatrist who wrote a report relying on Tamar's testimony without meeting Aharon? Or are you relying on Reb Shalom's psak that that Aharon is totally crazy?!
You disagree with Rav Miller, Rav Landesman, Rav Feldman and the Baltimore Beis Din based on what?
Whoa! They did not dispute the facts, they disputed the conclusion. A psychologist who dealt with Aharon directly related his assessment to a frum psychiatrist who gathered additional data and came to a conclusion. That is what R' Shalom said and that is what happened.
ReplyDeleteWrong.
ReplyDeleteno you are wrong on this issue
ReplyDeleteYou are way off base on this one. They sure did dispute the facts and said that even if the facts were true it didn't justify a heter.
ReplyDeleteThe psychiatrist is mistaken as is R Shalom. The Baltimore Beis Din said that Aharon is normal. Tamar never once raised the claim that he was mentally ill or had a personality disorder - either to the Baltimore Beis, the secular court, the media or her private diary.
The facts as presented by the psychiatrist are lies. Rav Greenblatt in one of his phone calls stated that since he had received the reports of 2 mental health experts (which he didn't understand) that stated that Aharon has 2 severe personality orders that disqualify him from being capable of being a husband. - even if 6 mental health experts contradicted them he was not changing his psak.
Bottom line - take the trouble of reading the letters - the facts of severe mental illness or personality disorders is strongly disputed. The report is lie
R Shalom who declared Aharon was totally crazy is either a liar or a fool. There was no basis for that statement even in the psychiatrist report as discussed by Rav Feldman who read it.
Remember the Slifkin and Making of a Gadol battles? Lots of the signers signed on because "if Ploni said so, he must know what he is talking about." Happens all the time.
ReplyDelete1. It's your word against the psychiatrist's. No more, no less.
ReplyDelete2. I did not see that the Balto. BD said that. In any event, they are not experts in mental health.
3. So long as she was pursuing a get that she thought could be obtained, it was not necessary to reveal the mental health issues.
4. Again, your word against the psychiatrist's.
5. RNG is certainly entitled to his own opinion - much as you may resent it.
6. Mekach ta'us does not require "total craziness." I did not see RSK assert he was a lunatic.
To reiterate: "No one was tricked. The facts as set out by Reb Shalom are accurate. Reb Shmuel and Reb Nota based their heter on those facts. You can dispute the heter - as I have said numerous times, I am not taking a position on it - but the facts were and are correct."
true but in this case there most rabbis who signed who were strongly upset by what had happened. It was in general not a case of "me too"
ReplyDeleteThey were strongly upset - perhaps, oder yoh oder nisht - but by what they were told. There is no reason to assume any of them engaged in independent fact finding.
ReplyDeleteHe is now the primary poseik for yeshivaleit of North America? A fantastical idea.
ReplyDeleteQuite necessary. Not obvious.
ReplyDeleteNun Bais: Ani Hakoton want to add Eidah HaChareidis and Rav Pinchus Rabinowitz with 3 signatures next to him.
ReplyDeleteI don't need to second Mr. Ploni k'Yehuda v'od likroh......
Your talking first hand experience? Takes one to know one. ...v'dye lachikima vkuli.......
ReplyDeleteSo are you really saying that all those rabbonim are mindless?
ReplyDeleteSo they lack halachic clout, at least to be mitztaref to the rov?
ReplyDeleteShould I accept that one word with Emunas Chachomim too?
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary, if Rav Shlomo Miller would expect to be followed automatically, then he wouldn't. procrastinate to sign. ..
ReplyDeleteOnly one 'intermarriage' would be enough of an issur.
ReplyDeletePlease stop confusing Rabbi Bechhoffer with the facts. His mind is made up.
ReplyDeleteYou see, he has a right to state his opinion. Why shouldn't people make claims about what the facts are (without evidence), claiming that they have a right to do so since they are only expressing their "opinion?" Then, they have a right to proceed to call their "opinion" factual. Intriguing...
Astounding your casualt admission that you are making assertions about the facts of this case without having read all the letters which are on this blog!
ReplyDeleteR Bechhofer - you keep tossing out your opinion as if it meant something - without checking to see if it is true.
ReplyDeleteYes many of the major signers did independently investigate the facts before signing or writing their own letters - despitely your naive belief to the contrary.
No.
ReplyDeleteDear Rabbi Bechofer.
ReplyDeleteI was watching your exchange with RDE from the sidelines, both exasperated and astonished by your comments and your flippant approach to איסורים חמורים.
I'm one of those who posted a lot of the detailed materials quoting the top mental health experts in the field, including the fellow who was in charge of of the DSM IV - Dr Allen Frances.
According to them, there is no doubt that the diagnosis of AF is absolutely worthless.
They WROTE the DSM, and if according to the architects of the DSM there are a whole slew of very serious issues with the procedure AND the content of the diagnosis shouldn't you worry a teeny bit about something called הוצאת שם רע?
I'd be happy to meet with you and go through these issues POINT-BY-POINT. Tell me, are you ready? These are issues that show, beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the evaluation is OBJECTIVELY worthless.
You obviously know nothing about how forensics are supposed to be done, since you keep on quoting that first psychologist, who never even did a formal forensic diagnosis. No differential diagnosis, no evaluation of environmental and social issues, no eval of functioning levels. Turning OCD and PPD into untreatable conditions, when the research says otherwise. The list of issues is very loooong.
Do you even know what these words mean?
Have you ABSOLUTELY no fear of G-D?
So, what are your thoughts on something called "הוצאת שם רע", which is what a eval like this amounts to?
Ever herad of עולם הבא? Do you know what it means to say that you and RNG are "entitled" to a negative opinion which materially effects AF in profound ways,
No, you are NOT entitled. No, RNG is NOT entitled.
It's one thing to have an ignoramus throw out his opinion ... but you're obviously far from one.
You keep on saying that the "facts" are correct. What facts are correct? What do they purportedly prove and how?
C'mon ... don't hide behind vague generalities .. roll up your sleeves and don't just פסל - because כל הפוסל במומו פוסל.
BTW, the first guy is NOT a psychiatrist - he's a psychologist. I know, 'cause I know who he is.
Also BTW, you have no idea how upset R' Shlomo Miller is about this, either. I do, because i spoke to him.
"but by what they were told. There is no reason to assume any of them engaged in independent fact finding."
ReplyDeleteI'll do you one better - so when we know for a fact that someone didn't engage in independant fact finding we can discount their opinion.
So RNG's psak here is also worthless? Got it. Glad we cleared that up.
" I did not see RSK assert he was a lunatic."
ReplyDeleteDid you miss the letter where Shalom said that AF was declared "meshuga bemelo muvan hamila"?
How are you making judgments on this case when you haven't seen even the most basic relevant documents?
Aichet gut!
ReplyDeleteRabbi Bechhofer: It does not serve you well to not read the documents in question, and justify your opinion by saying "I did not see x." The document from the Baltimore Beis Din has been posted on this site, as well as in the comments on the Emes Ve"emuna post. The latter from R' Shalom Kamenetzky, stating that the husband is משוגע במלוא מובן המלה was also posted here.
ReplyDeleteMost amusing. I'm the one being motzi shem ra, huh?
ReplyDeleteSure, let's meet! Email me at ygbechhofer@gmail.com and we'll take it from there.
I apologize for my incorrect sentence structure. I have read the letters. What I meant to say it that I did not see in the Balto. BD letter that they asserted definitively that the husband had no mental health issues.
ReplyDeleteYou are 100% right. If the facts as related to RNG by RSK are false, the heter is meaningless.
ReplyDeleteSo say you.
ReplyDeleteI assume you also believe that they know all that they sign for Kupat Ha'Ir etc.?
The heter is not based on him being meshuga. Read the letter again.
ReplyDeleteSure ... and a recognized Rabbi told me that I can take your car and your house ... feel free to keep up the charade, all in the name of "voicing an opinion".
ReplyDeleteעליכם אמר דר. וואלינשטיין:
A theory that is wrong is considered preferable to admitting our ignorance.” – Elliot Vallenstein, Ph.D.
Please - one has nothing to do with the other. Bottom line you are simply assuming what happened. I am telling you that regarding this issue you are clearly wrong.
ReplyDeleteRabbi Bechohoffer again you clearly have not read all the material, or if you read it you don't understand it - and yet you insist on making declarations about what happened.
ReplyDeleteThere are in fact two letters from the Baltimore Beis Din - not one as you have indicated. Please read the one from November 2015 4th paragraph. It is a direct contraction to what Shalom Kaminetsky said and what the psychiatrist who never saw Aharon said in the report that Rav Greenblatt used as the entire basis of giving the heter. Either you never read the letter or you don't understand what they are saying.
the heter is based on the claim of his having 2 severe incurable personality disorders either of which most women could not live with.
ReplyDeleteSome people - and that includes R Shalom Kaminetsky - would reasonable understand that to mean he is meshuga and therefore the marriage is invalid. Considering Rav Greenblatts acknowledgement he didn't understand the psychology but only that Aharon was alleged to have 2 servere mental health disorders - he probably also understood it to mean that Aharon was meshuga and therefore gave the heter.
So what about the assessment that he's meshuga bemlo muva hamila? Is that not a lie?
ReplyDeleteI never met the man so I don't know. All I know is that it is not germane.
ReplyDelete"Probably?" All this hullaballu on a "probably!!!"
ReplyDeleteI reiterate: The recent teshuvos on mekach ta'us such as the Haifa case and Rabbi Baron's case are based on disorders, not insanity.
Reb Daniel, shlita, please give me a break! They didn't pasken that he had no mental disorders! How could they?! Lo ra'inu eino ra'ayah. They wrote that they did not see signs of mental disorders in their contact with him. I know both dayanim personally from my days at NIRC, and while they are fine people and outstanding talmidei chachomim, they are in no way mental health experts. To be dan them l'kaf zechus, what they are trying to say is that they themselves cannot attest to any mental disrorders, as they noticed none and TE did not assert that there were any.
ReplyDeleteI respect your position. I just don't accept it.
ReplyDeleteI am not exactly sure what you are responding...
ReplyDeleteAnswer is: they may be POLITICALLY CORRECT
ReplyDeleteI was saying that Tamar herself can't rely on a diagnosis which relies on supposed facts that she - in her own handwriting - contradicts.
ReplyDeleteI wrote about it here:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/a-neutral-psychologist-refutes.html
.. and RNG can't rely on a a diagnosis that breaks every ethics rule on the book about about how forensic diagnosis should be given. That's well explained in many places on this blog. Perhaps the most authoritative is the paper from the architect of the DSM himself, Allen Frances. It's on Page of this post: http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamars-use-of-secular-evaluations-for.html
You might also care to see:
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/is-there-any-valid-reason-for-posek-in.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/12/tamar-epsteins-heter-lets-call-spade.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/11/another-gigantic-nail-in-coffin-of.html
The whole 50+ pgs. might be worth skimming through .. and imho if you פסל Aharon without doing so, it's an איסור דאורייתא of מוצאי שם רע.
That's what I meant last time I asked you about why you're not worried about הוצאת שם רע - I wasn't "shooting from the hip", but rather alluding to the חפץ חיים הל' לשה"ר כלל י' במ"ח סק"ט:
ט) שלא יגדיל העולה וכו'. פשוט הוא דהוא בכלל שקר, ומוציא שם רע נקרא עבור זה. ... המעשה הזה, שאם ידעו השומעים את החלק ההוא לא יחשב בעיניהם דבר זה לעולה גדולה כל כך, וכשישמיט המספר את הפרט הזה יתבזה בעיניהם מאוד, צריך ליזהר מאוד שלא להשמיט.
... and imho that's just the tip of the iceberg. ORA really picked the wrong guy to make "exhibit a" of get refusal, based on VERIFIABLE facts .. but I digress.
Care to comment on the substance of these issues?
Wrong. It's germane because it implicates Shalom Kamenetsky as a liar.
ReplyDeleteIf it's not germane, why did Shalom include it in his letter to RNG?
"3. So long as she was pursuing a get that she thought could be obtained, it was not necessary to reveal the mental health issues."
ReplyDeleteAnd it was also not necessary to reveal his mental health issues to the court during their custody battle?
But clearly Tamar didn't see signs of mental illness either. Since she did not report any of the symptoms or behaviors that the psychiatrist claims were found in Aharon - that means she had no problem tolerating his supposed illness and thus it is not relevant to the issue of mekach taos.
ReplyDeleteI disagree. So long as there is a shred of hope to come to a resolution without going public with such a charge, one would attempt to achieve such a resolution. Aderaba, at that stage, coming forward with assertions of mental health issues would be damaging to the cause.
ReplyDeleteIt obviously was not.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea. Ask him.
ReplyDeleteOn the contrary. I agree that there is room for an argument of substance. It is the atmosphere of a Roman Coliseum that has surrounded the substance that disturbs me.
ReplyDeleteResolution of what? She wanted to receive a Get without explain why?!
ReplyDeleteShe didn't feel it was necessary to mention severe personality disorder in the custody trial - even though if true it should have significant bearing on the nature of visitation?!
In the context of her private diary she felt a need not to reveal her true concerns about his severe mental helath issues?!
Sorry your assuming the complete censoring of her true feelings in these three areas makes absolutely no sense.
Evidently private diaries are not too private...
ReplyDeleteshe wrote it assuming it would be private - but she left it behind when she deserted her husband with their daughter. It is very hard to believe that she would not list severe personality disorder in this diary cheshbon of the good and bad points of her husband - even though she was aware of the alleged dysfunctional behavior associated with these conditions. It is must more likely that in fact these personality disorders are lies that were made up for the purpose of justify kiddushei ta'os.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it not germane?
ReplyDeleteWe have to see if pages are missing, we have to inquire why she left it behind, we have to see how extensive a diary it is.
ReplyDeleteBTW "much more likely" is hardly a standard on which to base the ongoing debasement that takes place here...
I don't like lynch mobs either. I do suspect, however, that many here feel that your not trying integrate information that contradicts your theories. Some probably feel your doing it on purpose.
ReplyDeleteBased on what I've read from you in the past I believe there's a requirement of being דן לכף זכות.
My way of doing that was chalking up the incomplete analysis to heuristic thinking.
familiar with Tversky and Kahaneman's work on the subject? they won the Nobel prize for it in debunking the efficient markets theory
Still waiting for you to comment on the evidence I just posted above
ReplyDeleteOkay, I will forsee to not let no harm shalt befall you...I will also drown out the jeers.....Bottom line, Rabbi Bechhofer, what are you afraid of, m'at ohr docheh harbeh min hachoshech.....even if the poster asking you the question is cynical, your answer will be here for the hundreds (or is it thousands?) of readers to see the truth for time immemorial
ReplyDelete....think about it. ...
So why did you choose to come here in the first place and begin making cryptically and incomplete comments? You began by saying that your thoughts are on Gentle Harry's blog. You did offer though, that you have not made up your mind about the "heter." When asked for further explanation, you simply said that this site is hostile territory.
ReplyDeletePlease explain the purpose your comments. If your goal is to have discussion, please do so. If your goal is to unilaterally declare the heter as good, without honestly debating the points based upon actual facts, then I guess that explains your actions. However, please do not expect this to be given a free pass. RSK has not been given a free pass. It seems that RGDS's time is up and that he will not be given a free pass anymore. Why should you expect a free pass?
Why would it be unnecessary to disclose the husband's supposed "severe" mental health issues to the court for the sake and well-being of the child?
ReplyDeleteI don't know. Why don't you ask Tamar or someone close to her?
ReplyDeleteThat our esteemed host has been meyached a blog post to me indicates that I have achieved my purpose.
ReplyDeleteSee my answer to the commenter going under the pen name of Honesty.
ReplyDeleteBecause her side and those close to her are muchzak to lie. (Hired Mendel Epstein to beat up AF, meshuga bemlo muvan hamila, abducting the kid and then tricking AF not to call police etc. etc.)
ReplyDeleteIf she had her kid's interests in mind, it would probably be important to disclose such info to the court, if it was true.
Why didn't Tamar disclose his mental health issues to the court? I don't know, go ask her.
Why did Shalom lie and say that he's meshuga bemlo muvan? I don't know, go ask him.
Why is it not in her diary? Try to come up with some fanciful explanation how she was trying to keep secrets from herself.
At some point even you will have to admit that this is rotten to the core.
"They were saying over in BMG today in the name of someone" Very reliable source you get your information from. R' Shuki Kanievsky stated emphatically that it is a ziyuf his father didn't sign anything with regard to this but you choose to ignore that and believe someone in BMG said in the name of someone blah blah blah. Did Reb Chaim sign the one with Knophler or did knophler add his torah afterwards? no comment about that.
ReplyDelete