Department of Justice
U.S. Attorney’s Office
District of New Jersey
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Wednesday, December 16, 2015
Orthodox Jewish Rabbi Sentenced To Eight Years In Prison For Conspiring To Kidnap Jewish Husbands, Force Them To Consent To Religious Divorces
TRENTON,
N.J. - An Orthodox Jewish Rabbi was sentenced today to 96 months in
prison for conspiring to kidnap Jewish men in an effort to force them to
give their wives religious divorces, referred to as “gets,” U.S.
Attorney Paul J. Fishman announced.
Jay Goldstein a/k/a “Yaakov,” 61, of Brooklyn, New York, was previously convicted by a federal jury of Count One and Count Five of an indictment charging him with conspiracy to commit kidnapping and attempted kidnapping. Jay Goldstein was convicted following an eight-week trial before U.S. District Judge Freda L. Wolfson, who imposed the sentence today in Trenton federal court.
According to documents filed in this case and the evidence at trial:
On Dec. 1, 2009, in Lakewood, an Orthodox Jewish man, Israel Markowitz, was assaulted, placed in a van, tied up, beaten and shocked with a stun-gun until he agreed to give his wife a get.
On Oct. 16, 2010, in Lakewood, another Orthodox Jewish man, Ysrael Bryskman, was assaulted, tied up and beaten until he agreed to give his wife a get.
On Aug. 22, 2011, in Brooklyn, another Orthodox Jewish man, Usher Chaimowitz, and his roommate, Menachem Teitlebaum, were assaulted, tied up and beaten until Chaimowitz agreed to give his wife a get.
Based upon these incidents, the FBI began an undercover operation in August 2013 in which two FBI agents posed as a wife who was seeking a get from her recalcitrant husband, and her brother, who was trying to help her obtain the get. Over the next several weeks, the undercover agents had multiple recorded phone calls and in-person meetings with Mendel Epstein, 70, Lakewood, New Jersey. In those meetings, Epstein arranged to have his team kidnap the husband at a warehouse in exchange for $60,000.
On Oct. 9, 2013, Jay Goldstein, his sons Moshe Goldstein, 32, and Avrohom Goldstein, 36, and others – including Binyamin Stimler, 40, Simcha Bulmash, 32, David Hellman, 33, Sholom Shuchat, 31, all of Brooklyn, and Ariel Potash, 42, of Monsey, New York – traveled from New York to a warehouse in Middlesex County, New Jersey, to execute the planned kidnapping of the husband to force him to give the get.
They arrived at the warehouse in two dark minivans shortly after 8:00 p.m. Some of the kidnap team members put on masks and entered the warehouse office with the undercover agent posing as the brother. The remaining kidnappers walked around the outside with flashlights. Over the next 15 minutes, members of the kidnap team went in and out of the warehouse office wearing disguises, including ski masks, Halloween masks and bandanas. They discussed their plan for kidnapping and assaulting the husband, how they planned to grab him, pull him down, tie him up, and take his phone. Members of the kidnap team brought with them to the warehouse a 30-foot nylon rope, a blindfold, vodka, license plates they had switched out, and items used to ceremonially record the get. At 8:23 p.m., law enforcement moved into the warehouse office and arrested the eight men.
In addition to the prison term, Judge Wolfson sentenced Jay Goldstein to five years of supervised release.
Avrohom Goldstein, Potash, Shuchat, Moshe Goldstein, Hellman, and Bulmash have all pleaded guilty to one count of traveling in interstate commerce to commit extortion. Avrohom Goldstein and Potash were sentenced Nov. 19, 2015 to 45 and 14 months in prison, respectively. Shuchat was sentenced to time served on Nov. 19, 2015. Moshe Goldstein was sentenced Nov. 16, 2015 to 48 months in prison. Hellman and Bulmash were sentenced Nov. 17, 2015 to 44 and 48 months in prison, respectively. Martin Wolmark, 57, of Monsey, previously pleaded guilty to conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce to commit extortion and was sentenced Dec. 14, 2015 to 38 months in prison.
Epstein and Stimler were also previously convicted at trial of Count One of the indictment charging them with conspiracy to commit kidnapping. Stimler was additionally convicted on Count Five of the indictment, attempted kidnapping. Epstein and Stimler were sentenced yesterday to 120 and 39 months in prison, respectively.
U.S. Attorney Fishman credited special agents of the FBI, under the direction of Special Agent in Charge Richard M. Frankel in Newark, and the Lakewood Police Department with the investigation.
The government is represented by Assistant U.S. Attorneys R. Joseph Gribko and Sarah M. Wolfe of the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Trenton.
Jay Goldstein a/k/a “Yaakov,” 61, of Brooklyn, New York, was previously convicted by a federal jury of Count One and Count Five of an indictment charging him with conspiracy to commit kidnapping and attempted kidnapping. Jay Goldstein was convicted following an eight-week trial before U.S. District Judge Freda L. Wolfson, who imposed the sentence today in Trenton federal court.
According to documents filed in this case and the evidence at trial:
On Dec. 1, 2009, in Lakewood, an Orthodox Jewish man, Israel Markowitz, was assaulted, placed in a van, tied up, beaten and shocked with a stun-gun until he agreed to give his wife a get.
On Oct. 16, 2010, in Lakewood, another Orthodox Jewish man, Ysrael Bryskman, was assaulted, tied up and beaten until he agreed to give his wife a get.
On Aug. 22, 2011, in Brooklyn, another Orthodox Jewish man, Usher Chaimowitz, and his roommate, Menachem Teitlebaum, were assaulted, tied up and beaten until Chaimowitz agreed to give his wife a get.
Based upon these incidents, the FBI began an undercover operation in August 2013 in which two FBI agents posed as a wife who was seeking a get from her recalcitrant husband, and her brother, who was trying to help her obtain the get. Over the next several weeks, the undercover agents had multiple recorded phone calls and in-person meetings with Mendel Epstein, 70, Lakewood, New Jersey. In those meetings, Epstein arranged to have his team kidnap the husband at a warehouse in exchange for $60,000.
On Oct. 9, 2013, Jay Goldstein, his sons Moshe Goldstein, 32, and Avrohom Goldstein, 36, and others – including Binyamin Stimler, 40, Simcha Bulmash, 32, David Hellman, 33, Sholom Shuchat, 31, all of Brooklyn, and Ariel Potash, 42, of Monsey, New York – traveled from New York to a warehouse in Middlesex County, New Jersey, to execute the planned kidnapping of the husband to force him to give the get.
They arrived at the warehouse in two dark minivans shortly after 8:00 p.m. Some of the kidnap team members put on masks and entered the warehouse office with the undercover agent posing as the brother. The remaining kidnappers walked around the outside with flashlights. Over the next 15 minutes, members of the kidnap team went in and out of the warehouse office wearing disguises, including ski masks, Halloween masks and bandanas. They discussed their plan for kidnapping and assaulting the husband, how they planned to grab him, pull him down, tie him up, and take his phone. Members of the kidnap team brought with them to the warehouse a 30-foot nylon rope, a blindfold, vodka, license plates they had switched out, and items used to ceremonially record the get. At 8:23 p.m., law enforcement moved into the warehouse office and arrested the eight men.
In addition to the prison term, Judge Wolfson sentenced Jay Goldstein to five years of supervised release.
Avrohom Goldstein, Potash, Shuchat, Moshe Goldstein, Hellman, and Bulmash have all pleaded guilty to one count of traveling in interstate commerce to commit extortion. Avrohom Goldstein and Potash were sentenced Nov. 19, 2015 to 45 and 14 months in prison, respectively. Shuchat was sentenced to time served on Nov. 19, 2015. Moshe Goldstein was sentenced Nov. 16, 2015 to 48 months in prison. Hellman and Bulmash were sentenced Nov. 17, 2015 to 44 and 48 months in prison, respectively. Martin Wolmark, 57, of Monsey, previously pleaded guilty to conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce to commit extortion and was sentenced Dec. 14, 2015 to 38 months in prison.
Epstein and Stimler were also previously convicted at trial of Count One of the indictment charging them with conspiracy to commit kidnapping. Stimler was additionally convicted on Count Five of the indictment, attempted kidnapping. Epstein and Stimler were sentenced yesterday to 120 and 39 months in prison, respectively.
U.S. Attorney Fishman credited special agents of the FBI, under the direction of Special Agent in Charge Richard M. Frankel in Newark, and the Lakewood Police Department with the investigation.
The government is represented by Assistant U.S. Attorneys R. Joseph Gribko and Sarah M. Wolfe of the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Trenton.
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Violent Crimes
As a frum Jew who just came out of prison, lets hope Rabbi Epstein ends up in Otisville, NY which is the best place for Orthodox Jews. See my short story about prision athttp://www.amazon.com/PRISON-expect-Federal-Bureau-Prisons-ebook/dp/B011GTWLOG
ReplyDeleteWolnark, who was the #2 man in this gang after Epstein, got a lighter sentence than most of the others.
ReplyDeleteDavid,
ReplyDeleteAside from the questionable taste of your attempts to garner publicity for your story via your comments, I wonder whether Epstein deserves any allowance for purporting to be an observant Jew. Personally, I feel the damage he did to untold dozens of families (this one case is just the tip of the iceberg) makes him deserving of the harshest time possible.
Let him eat חזיר and miss minyan every day for the coming 120 months. Perhaps any עגמת נפש this lowlife might bring himself to feel will serve to ameliorate the גיהנום which he richly deserves after his carcass leaves this world.
David, knock it of
ReplyDeleteLeave it alone
They were all party to being מרבה ממזרים בישראל and deserved every day they got כל המרחם על אכזרים סופו לאכזר על רחמנים
ReplyDeleteNext case
But Mendel Epstein is not frum....
ReplyDeleteDavid,
ReplyDeleteDo you want to share with us your story of why you were sent there.
I believe the difference is that Wolmark took a plea deal, while Epstein decided to fight to prove his "innocence".
ReplyDeleteDid Wolmark have to rat out his coconspirators as part of his plea? That is the usual price.
ReplyDeleteyes, I was an immigration lawyer and I broke the law, I got people sponsors and my accountant fixed the tax returns so I sat for 1316 days. My story will be coming out in a book , bli neder. while in jail, I studied a lot chumash and gemara and I wrote a supplement to code of the heart http://www.amazon.com/Code-Heart-Gematria-Bible-Decoder-ebook/dp/B012LM98XO.
ReplyDeleteI am extremely remorseful for my crime, Jail is a very dangerous place, even for white collar criminals. After 35 months in various prisons,I finally made it to Otisville, where I was there for eight months. If anyone wants to me to speak in a shul or be a public speaker about my experience, I would be more than willing to do it. I already spoke at DROR and here is a copy of my speech,http://www.amazon.com/Dror-keeping-prisoners-families-together-ebook/dp/B0157M32X2
Sorry, but this is a ridiculous comment. Sinning in one area does not make a person a sinner in all areas, nor does it mean we should hope for a Jew to be forced to violate the Torah.
ReplyDeleteThe gangsters have to feel what life is without a minyan, afterall Aharon Friedman and Meir Kin have been wrongfully kicked out of shul as another method of coercion. Now its the gangsters turn to be "Michutz Lamachane"
ReplyDeleteKnock yourself out. If you want to expend political capital on getting Jews kosher food in prison, have fun.
ReplyDeleteSuch foolishness is akin to the worldwide campaign launched a couple of years ago to spare the death sentence from a convicted murderer...only because some Chabad rabbi in Florida put that homicidal Jew on the map.
Oh, and ironically, that Jew's last meal (of choice) was a McDonald's Big Mac, if memory serves correctly. Then they executed him.
They got paid for their services. That makes them rishayim?? You know they did it to help these women. You all know it. Maybe they were wrong. Maybe. Their hearts were in the right place. EVERYONE knows that. You want to fee better and deny it? To be happy they are going to jail is such a rishus!!! Anyone who is happy that they are going to jail should have their lineage checked. Wow!! Unbelievable you'd want them to go to jail. Wowowowowow!!!!
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely correct. Even if the person had been eating treif and not davening before he committed whatever crime that got him jailed, he should be permitted and encouraged and facilitated to eat kosher and daven.
ReplyDeleteIt's worth all the political capital it cost. And thankfully Jewish organizations and askanim spend a lot of political and judicial and executive capital on this endeavor.
ReplyDeleteSuccessfully, I might add.
They caused eishes ish to commit adultery and birth mamzeirim with their forced gittin that were invalid Get Me'usa that falsely caused dozens and dozens of married women to "remarry" after Mr. Epstein breast their husband into giving an invalid Get.
ReplyDeleteHow much bigger of a rasha can one get?
The comparison to the Florida case is as ridiculous as the original comment. In fact, no one needs to "knock themselves out." The right to kosher food in prison is already honored. The idea that a person who sins in one area is drummed out of Judaism is utterly false. You are the one purveying foolishness, not I.
ReplyDeleteYou know they did it to help these women.
ReplyDeleteProviding an invalid, and worthless "get" is helpful to anyone? How so - by encouraging them to commit adultery? To cause the production of mamzeirim?
The story is indeed sad all around. However, they should have listened to all the crying fathers. They should should have listened to all the crying children. The children who sadly grew up disturbed, dysfunctional and hurt. They had plenty of chances to listen to those children, but they chose not to pay attention to them or even acknowledge their existence. The results are all sad.
http://www.thejewishweek.com/earl-seth-david
ReplyDeleteYou know they did it to help these women.
ReplyDeleteThat's a laugh. Mendel Epstein and his crew would make hocus-pocus heter meahs for husbands, and then withhold the get from the wife, give her the runaround. When she would cough up 25K, the get would miraculously be found. He was neither pro-husband or pro-wife, he was pro-cash flow.
in reply to Mr. Yitzchok's email, I moved to Canada in 2005. I did not take from one customer 30,000,. The ones who took over my practice charged whatever they want and in the end of the day, they called it the Earl David lawfirm. Earl David law firm ceased operations on April 1, 2004, but for this case, I became resurrected as the Earl David Law firm. For your information, when I got suspended on April 1, 2004 for an unrelated matter, Immigration sent letters to all of my clients that I no longer represent the person/company. New Lawyers took over my practice but the government wanted to nail me as the "mastermind". Others were in charge. My mistake was doing paperwork for them. I had no control when I moved and I did not flee to Canada. Those are facts. The rest is hyperbole. Show me one contract for 30,000 in my name and then I will be quiet. I will correct the record because that is truth.
ReplyDeletefor everyone's information, kosher meals consist of 11 microwaveable meals from meal mart or some other company. And believe it or not, you will get used to it and will sustain you . I ate those meals for over 1200 days.
ReplyDeleteThe only rat is allegedly David Wax from lakewood. Everyone else in the case didn't rat on anyone. The plea deals didn't include cooperation. However, the government offered pleas to take before trial, that the people will be charged with extortion and not kidnapping. That's why all the guys who took a plea - got 4 years or less. And the guys who weren't the "tough guys" got house arrest (Shuchat) or 13 months (potash).
ReplyDeleteQuite typical of the internet age where justice is decided by anonymous folks who wish to heap the worst on anyone who commits any sort of crime. The heck with him, he should eat treif, he should rot in prison and feel Bubba's wrath...
ReplyDeleteOf course, that is completely inconsistent with the Torah's viewpoint. The person who stole a sheep is treated differently than the one who stole a larger animal because he already suffered the shame of carrying it in the street. Clearly the Torah feels that justice must be meted out very carefully and precisely, but DanielNY1 cares not a whit about what the Torah says. All he wants is for Mendel Epstein to suffer in every imaginable way regardless of what he actually is supposed to suffer. absurd.
Why don't you just read the transcripts?
ReplyDeleteMaybe Wax ratted, maybe not. If he did, as they say, it was probably Halachically permissible to put an end to the Eishes Ish/ Mamzerim factory. i even hear from highly credible sources that he received a heter, in writing, from the gedolei haPoskim to rat.
Ralbag and to a lesser extent Wolmark, ratted on Epstein big time! with no heter!! for no purpose other than to save their own skins!!! and these guys are Rabbis????
Wax himself and hus wife tortured Briskman into giving a pasul Get with Briskmans wife "remarrying" based on it and producing mamzeirim, so Wax is as bad as Epstein.
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't sentenced yet. Rats are always sentenced last.
ReplyDeleteI just spoke to a Posek in Lakewood and apparently wax had a heter for what he did
ReplyDeleteDid Mr. Wax also have a heter to beat and bloody Mr. Briskman into giving a Get Me'usa?
ReplyDeleteUmm, speaking of the Internet age, how would you know that I don't know the מנוול Epstein more directly?
ReplyDeleteHey, I believe - no, make that I KNOW - that you know nothing about this criminal. Wow, he was caught and convicted for ONE big ticket item he tried to pull. Wow! The Feds put him away for 10 years! Wow!
His life of Jewish crime lasted for decades. He's destroyed dozens of families. Your רחמנות on this אכזר is misplaced and utterly inappropriate.
Otisville is only available for people convicted of financial crimes. Epstien is not eligible.
ReplyDeleteMendel Epstien was only pro Mendel Epstien.
ReplyDeleteVery possibly. I said nothing about whether Mendel Epstein is guilty or innocent. I know very little about his actions other than what's reported in the news and for all I care he could be the devil. That's irrelevant to the point I made which is that calling for him to be denied kosher food and be forced to eat pork is completely inconsistent with the Torah that even for an out and out murderer insists ברור לו מיתה יפה and certainly never absolves the murderer of the obligation to observe kosher.
ReplyDeletePlease respond to that point, not to how evil ME is.
Al pi halacha, that individual was a mitzvah of hatzolos nefoshos, lo sa'amod al dam rai'echo and hashkafah, he was a nefesh Yisroel, a nefesh Eloki. Poshut. On top of that, The Skulener Rebbe and Rav Yitzchok Tovia Weiss, AB"D Yerushalayim, signed a mitzvah to save him. Over here, I may agree that we should not MAKE him transgress, but I find the excessive rachmanus displayed here in poor taste. ....
ReplyDeleteI sat on the trial about 5 sessions. Before that, I have extensively spoken to people who had personal experience with him. Pretty certain that for the most part, he was pro woman. On the Internet, before he was caught, he was hailed as a here by a woman's group. He also wrote a book for the the Jewish woman and Jewish divorce.
ReplyDelete"So Wax is as bad as Epstein"
ReplyDelete....just that Epstein actipns were continuous
Brunfin, stop drinking and sober up!
ReplyDeleteTheir hearts were NOT in the right place!
Was thinking the last few days over in response to comment of yours: massering on another yid is not Poshut. Very rarely can be done. On Someone who is already a Moser, is an exception. Epstein was just that.
Not to mentioned the lives messed up, problematic gittin, aishes ish, mamzerim, etc...sorely in need of a 'vacation'.
היינו הך
ReplyDeletethere is something called stepdown, where you lower your public safety points for good behavior so that even violent people end up in a camp. I have seen people coming from the medium at Otisville and they are former gangsters/gang members,so there are exceptions to the rule. The person who was one bunk next to me was a former gangster from Texas with hundred tatoos, so trust me, violent people also end up in a camp. His life will be in genuine danger in any other place besides Otisville. You can see what I wrote at http://www.amazon.com/PRISON-expect-Federal-Bureau-Prisons-ebook/dp/B011GTWLOG . I was a white collar criminal and I was in very dangerous places, from the Don Jail to MCC, where fist fights and other violent acts broke out almost every day. Unfortunately, I was witness to alot of blood shed in my 1316 days of imprisonment.
ReplyDeleteThat is all well and good, but it behooves those who want to make a public spectacle to consider the broader issues as well. I very much doubt that was done in this case. Hatzolos nefashos? Heartwarming term to throw out (on par with Pidyon Shevuyim) but I would say it would require a much more serious psak whether that would have been true in this case.
ReplyDeleteI'm sure there are other minorities that would love to rise up and seek to mitigate the sentences handed out by our courts of law to the members of their communities. If we are ready to open that door, then expect others to follow.
I don't like to trade Gedolim Cards with anyone. I know neither of the individuals you quoted, and I haven't a clue how much they knew of this case. I would, however, think that whoever would pasken this shailo would spend a great deal of time acquainting themselves with the case, with US laws, and with Florida laws.
I never said that he should be force fed pork...no need to become over the top and shrill.
ReplyDeleteI was responding to someone's statement that ME 'should' be sent to Otisville. No one should care a whit about which federal prison he goes to. The damage he did to our brethren - long before the Feds made a spectacle out of him - is immense. If someone in our religion cannot find a slew of better candidates for רחמנות to occupy themselves with, then they're not trying very hard. This אכזר should be left to live with the consequences of his actions. I find it odious that the commenter made such a statement on his behalf, presumably because federal time is decidedly unpleasant.
׳כל המרחם על אכזרים...׳ does come to mind. There is something terribly wrong with anyone who thinks there's a מצווה to do anything for this evil person. At least spend a few hours going through the evidence in the transcripts that led to his conviction. See the subversion of our entire halachic process, and then decide if your time can't be spent providing רחמנות to anyone who actually deserves it.
And for those who are still sleepless over the lack of kosher food in other places besides Otisville? אונס רחמנא פטרי
I never said that he should be force fed pork...no need to become over the top and shrill.
ReplyDeleteDavid said nothing about force-feeding. You're distorting his words.
Here's what you said:
Let him eat חזיר and miss minyan every day for the coming 120 months. Perhaps any עגמת נפש this lowlife might bring himself to
feel will serve to ameliorate the גיהנום which he richly deserves after
his carcass leaves this world
That qualifies as both shril and over the top, in my opinion.
But how much of a priority should we 'go out of our way' to see that he eats kosher?
ReplyDeleteWell, the average Chareidi Jew knows who they are and I have yet to see any gadol on the other side of that debate.
ReplyDeleteDebate? I wasn't aware it was debated at all. Instead, the bandwagon began moving, and a whole bunch of people jumped on.
ReplyDeleteAnd, you're on the wrong blog if you're trying to convince us that the 'gedolim' always have the courage to stand up and make a מחאה when something has gone completely off the rails, as it did with that FL murderer a couple of years back.
Look, this is getting silly. You can have the last word if you like. I'll just say, since you're making these עיונים, 'Let him eat pork' also doesn't equal being 'forced to eat pork'.
ReplyDeleteMaybe m'e can get a Hetirshoso type of heter from his
ReplyDeleterabonim that allowed him to condemn ham sandwiches in Absentia and forcing them give a get. I'm sure for a couple of bucks they'll procure him one. The Hams are out for revenge after this Red Devil ongferessener yung.
Jail is a very dangerous place. Your life is in harms way every single day. You are subject to 24/7 searches and you could be put in Solitary confinement on a mere suspicion. I don't wish this on my enemies.
ReplyDeleteSee my short story at http://www.amazon.com/PRISON-expect-Federal-Bureau-Prisons-ebook/dp/B011GTWLOG. I pray for prison reform, like community service and home confinement which is more humane.
I also would like to know from all those that are so concerned for this Father of all goons about eating Kashrus, WHERE were they when m'e 1) not only served but force fed non-Kosher Gittin for acheinu bnei Yisroel, a bein odom lemokom, 2) destroyed lives of complete MISHPOCHOS beYISROEL, a bein odom lechaveiro? This guy would have sold out his mother im kol hatorah kula, and IS a MUMAR lekol haTorah kula. He is himself a Davar Achar, a something else. His favorite was a HAM sandwich. Ve'ein onu achroim liremoim! Despicable piece of debris, Achzar kaye'einim bamidbar. Good riddens. We shall never forget, nor forgive ever. Meuves lo yuchal letaken.
ReplyDeleteAnd I have personal knowledge of several cases such as I described above, and have heard of many more. Not pro-woman. Pro-geneivah and extortion.
ReplyDeleteDisagree. That guy was a cold-blooded murderer, a terrible person. How foolish to make a cause of saving a murderer, no matter which deluded poseik was convinced to sign a letter about a case he knew zero about.
ReplyDeleteIf there's no kosher food, it does.
ReplyDelete1. There is no chayiv misa for retzicha on a nochri.
ReplyDelete2. There was very very weak evidence in that case that he was the trigger-man rather than only an accomplice. There is never a chiyuv misa for a) someone who didn't actually do the killing b) there is such weak evidence (especially no eidem.)
3. Anyone can do teshuva. And there is evidence he did.
That is factually incorrect. His last meal was kosher.
ReplyDeleteWe needn't and shouldn't worry ourselves how other minorities will demand equal treatment when it comes to saving a Jewish life.
ReplyDeleteThe Gedolim PI cited are from the top tier zokein gedolei yisroel alive in klal yisroel today.
The courage was on the gedolei yisroel who stood up to help this Jewish outcast in far away Florida. It didn't and wouldn't take much courage to condemn him further.
ReplyDeleteInsisting that any Jew be afforded kosher is very very far from having mercy on his previous misdeeds.
ReplyDeleteWhatever it takes. Besides, getting him afforded kosher food doesn't take much political capital.
ReplyDeleteDebate? I wasn't aware it was debated at all.
ReplyDeleteVery true. Some debate.
Ok, so I'll bundle my replies:
ReplyDelete1) I wasn't aware that Cook County prison canteen offered kosher sandwiches: http://www.clarkprosecutor.org/html/death/US/grossman1195.htm
So, if you've misstated this fact, let's consider what other statements and halachos you've misstated.
2) I already acknowledged I don't trade in Gedilim Cards. The fact that you added some adjectives ('top tier', 'zokein') doesn't mean you spoke to them or that anyone here did. This was another askan-driven mission that elderly rabbinical authorities halfway across the world probably knew nothing about.
3) There are plenty of people out there who claim the courage lies with those rabbis who have made it their mission to free 'agunos'. After all, "it doesn't and wouldn't take much courage to allow the status quo to continue."
That's right, there is nothing to debate about. Since al pi Torah he had no chiyuv missah, it would be forbidden to kill him or stand by and let his blood be spilled. I have seen a letter supporting to save his life without seeing any indication of dissent by substantial Da'as Torah. Also, I don't recall the news reporting that he had a Big Mac before his execution.
ReplyDeleteHmm....I think all these years, he was eating up kosher people. .......he had enough kosher. .....
ReplyDelete1. The Florida State prison canteens indeed does carry (Alle Processing) kosher sandwiches. Glad to have informed you on that.
ReplyDelete2. Despite your misconceptions, so-called askanim (whatever you mean by that term) do not control multiple gedolim around the world, and the gedolim do indeed make their own decisions based on the facts.
3. Your understanding of courage is incorrect.
I would take exception with at least #3. The reason courage isn't necessary over here is some because you are being POLITICALLY CORRECT
ReplyDeleteNow that you mention that, I recall when an attorney told me that she was representing the woman in a din Torah, while he represented the man, but all the above items mentioned in in my previous comment were done for the woman.
ReplyDeleteI also know of 2 cases where he represented the man and double crossed him...............
I have no interest in your half-baked, mindless excuses for this wicked person. The people who made him into a cause celebre were deluded.
ReplyDeleteThanks. Your response is a perfect example of why my analogy to Florida was so apt in this case as well.
ReplyDeleteOnce people decide that their course of action is the right one, nothing will dissuade them...not even the truth. In fact, they'll even promote שקר just to avoid admitting they were wrong.
Alle...in Florida State prisons no less! LOL
It always amazes me how utterly devoid of substance is all the Torah learning that some people do. Instead of being מרחיק שקר ורע בשתי ידים, there's always a few to take up the cause for some awful criminals among us. The effort starts out small, but inevitably becomes a total whitewash and lie. You just did it with your Florida murderer, and I have no doubt that eventually Epstein too will be viewed as a martyr by a percentage of אונזערע. And it all begins when people don't realize that they need to let this vicious dog lie in precisely the bed that he made for himself.
When you are condemned for a mistake of your past you will come back and sing a different tune.
ReplyDeleteYou've proven from your comment history that the Torah and Shulchan Aruch are simply no more than extra thick phone books you stick under children's tuches' in lieu of high chair. When the S"A paskens things that don't fit into the 21st century American zeitgest and run afoul of your 21st century American sensibilities you come here and start posting comments demanding the rabbis fix the Torah and S"A and change the halacha into something more accommodating to those sensibilities. So all you write here falls nearly into that pattern of yours.
ReplyDeleteDaniel, one problem: your argument is wrong al pi halacha.
ReplyDeleteAlso, The Av Bais Din of Yerushalayim, Rav Weiss, is a recognized authority, certainly more than anybody on this blog, he said that there is a mitzvah of hatzolos nefoshos.
Also, you have no mekoros for your stance.
Whoever held of Epstein will most likely continue to hold of him, whoever hated him will also continue to do so. ....
If you or your relative or your close friend have suffered from this goon, you'd be singing a different tune. .....maybe "Uz yoshir".......perhaps even more, "ba'avod resha'im rinah".....
ReplyDeleteWhen this was going on, I recall that the ta'anah and proof to save him were more compelling than not.
ReplyDeleteThe argument that he did teshuva, or some type of it, was palpable. Here, by Epstein, it is not. He never expressed remorse for his actions.
By Grossman, he did not kill any Jew, while although we do not condone anybody's murder, he was nonetheless not mechanics missah for that reason alone. The entire Masechta Sanhedrin would exonerate him for a myriad of other reasons such as lack of proper witness and testimony. No sanhedrin - lack of halachic authority to judge him, lack of halachic authority to execute him.
Grossman was a rachmanus, Epstein is not.which goes into. ........ next paragraph, ........
From Grossman, he had no support , everybody knew it was wrong AND/ AND THEREFORE people will not learn from, by Epstein, some still think he's a saint! People can learn from. This, offhand, may not justify p'sak, (although and as I have said that the 2 rabbonim signed a letter that it is a mitzvah to save him, while I have not seen any to the contrary) it certainly does justify sentiment.
....and the p'sak came...
ReplyDelete.....from Mr. Barak. ..................
Yes, he had a Heter. The Rabbonim were Shmuly Fuerst, SKaminetsky, and other choshuve poskim, who wished to remain anonymous.
ReplyDeleteAn 1-800-number psychoanalyst provided a diagnosis that the holy Rabbonim used to formulate their psak.
The actual psak was written on the back of a napkin, which unfortunately seems to have disappeared.
If you have information as to the whereabouts of this napkin, please email skam44@gmail.com
I'm not sure which argument or which stance you are referring to.
ReplyDeleteHowever, we are definitely seeing Gadol shopping going on among today's Askanim. Why Rav Weiss in Yerushalayim? "He said"...to you, or to whom exactly? Do we know what question was posed? Is he familiar with the case (which was from 1984, BTW)? With Florida law?
How is someone getting Rav Weiss' signature on something any different than someone shopping for RNG to sign off on the heter that has burned up this blog's pages in the last few weeks? Perhaps we should insist that serious questions be posed, and serious answers received. It seems that the first person to get the signature parades it around as a 'psak'.
Unlike Catskills' comment below (which doesn't even deserve a response), Halacha is not just a "book"...it is alive and real, and requires serious psak. Someone needed to address the specific issue of Martin Grossman in a real, halachic way. I don't think anyone did anything of the sort. If they did, please direct me to the psak with the Mkoros that labeled this a true case of hatzolas nefoshos.
As a rule, a pikuach nefesh or pidyun shvuyim situation doesn't require a psak from a posek before one must act.
ReplyDeleteTrying to de-convolute ourselves and simply put:
ReplyDelete1) I saw a letter from prominent rabbonim who are known to be yirei
Shomayim to do what we can for Martin Grossman.
2)On top of that , their endorsement, in a way, is superfluous, since al pi halacha we are supposed to do what we can to save a Yid's life. As such, I don't have adequate reason that the askonim involved went forum shopping -
3)ESPECIALLY if there is no party involved with adversarial interests. .......... .............in which all of these prerequisites are absent by Tamar. ..........
If he didn't care feeding klall yisroel with chamuraos shebechamurors, why would you care him being fed dovor achar. It is a kal vachomer from Bakol misrapin chuts m'G'A, A'Z, ushfichus domim. BTW, why do you address me as barak?
ReplyDeleteMoe,
ReplyDeletePlease let us know when you begin the Pidyon Shevuyim fund on behalf of Mendel Epstein. The poor old guy is facing 10 years in the federal slammer...and he hasn't been found guilty of anything by a single Jewish court of law.
Have a good Shabbos.