Demonstration Tuesday 6 p.m. at Binyanei HaUma against the Kaminetsky Heter for Tamar Epstein
I was asked to post this notice about the demonstration. Have no idea at present who is organizing it or who is endorsing it. Hope to have more details Tuesday morning
He is commiting suicide, taking down the whole ship with it's passengers. Where are you all when we deed you most? Lo ess lachshos, kum kro lelokecho. What about all those innocent bystanders, Father, Brothers, Yeshivah, Talmidim past present and future, Moetset, Ag...., . Tomus nafshi im .... cannot happen! A meabed atsmo loda'as, umeabed ma shenosnin lo bimlo muven hamila. I firmly believe that TAMAR would not wish such to happen and would rather give it lemaan hashem ulemaan kvod Beis Yisroel. Give it up begin Ovicho, begin ishtecho, begin Kvod Toiroh haKdoisho. Raboisay... Gevald... oid me'at veovodnu. PLEASE PLEASE we plead CHAZOR BOCH. It is you, all by yourself against the world, don't throw it away just like that. Shma Yisrael....
Ani Hakoton find it troubling that they are singling him out because it is POLITICALLY CORRECT not to go after the more primary players. (I think he's only 3rd place in most wanted. ..)
A Great point you're bringing up, this whole insanity was done to save tamar let's agree for arguments sake that she's right and she needs help let's assume that Heter is correct, is this the way to help her destroying her life and all of the descendents till the end of time ??? she had a relatively small issue to deal with and now she has an historic issue to contend with . And the kamenetskies parade around being the people with brains!!!!!!!
From the tone of the notice I would guess it is a radical group. I would hope that the "benei hayeshiva" do not attend. Personally, I am not a fan of most of these demonstrations, but if you want to demonstrate it is important that you know who you are demonstrating with and what the "joint message" being conveyed is. I think this is important from both sides - e.g. those agitating for Get on demand who wish to do so within the bounds of halacha should not align themselves with groups that do not have the same respect of halacha as they will end up to some degree effectively supporting a non-halachic agenda. Similar, the benei hayeshiva need to be careful about aligning themselves with far right groups e.g. the "atzeres tefillah" about the draft of yeshiva students in Manhattan a couple of years ago that was attended by many "bnei yeshivah" and at the same time there were demonstrators holding posters calling Rav Shteinman disgusting things. Like it or not, those bnei yeshivah who attended to some degree effectively supported those posters.
Regardless of the merits of the protest in general, I think that the echoing of the phrase אותו האיש is despicable. It hearkens back to the disgusting posters put up about Rav Kook, and should not be tolerated.
Correct, in principle. In practice, that will get nowhere. RNG gave the heter based on lies told to him by Shalom. Unless Shalom retracts his lies, nothing will change. Shalom is the one who has his entire future to lose. Shalom is the one that must clean up the mess.
Yes these demonstrations are really low , no question about it all the refined gentleman have always look down on this sort of expression, the funny thing is, when something really touch their hearts they go and do the exact same ,demonstrate. can't forget the revulsion the mizrachi Israel has for demonstrations for Shabbos but then has no problem demonstrating what what's really close to their hearts like not giving up lands and the nonreligious crowd revulsion towards the demonstrations for not giving up the land but they have no problem demonstrating say for the high prices of cottage cheese yes it's an ugly business but it's amazingly effective and just might what might be necessary to tip the scales in this case
RNG is number one, he gave the heter and with willful blindness to boot. If he'll retract, then everything falls apart, including both of the RSK and 1) everyone will see that what they said does not make a difference and 2) and more importantly, no one in Orthodox Jewish circles will ever even *dream* of pulling off such a shenanigan again.
RSK senior is in second place and was initially involved before his son was as is evident from the media. During the 'olden days with her get campaign' I only heard of the R Shmuel being involved (maybe someone can correct me here) and so is evident from his son's letters to RNG. ..
I don't disagree. But the point is that without his father on board, Rav Nota would never have even considered sticking his neck out. Rav Shalom is a really nice guy, but he doesn't pull the kind of weight Rav Shmuel does.
I think Politically Incorrect makes a good point - Rav Shalom is a much softer target. People are scared to death of starting up with Rav Shmuel directly.
But is not used exclusively that way- some of many examples
חגיגה יג. ברם, זכור אותו האיש לטוב, וחנניה בן חזקיה שמו, אלמלא הוא נגנז ספר יחזקאל, שהיו דבריו סותרין דברי תורה
בבא בתרא כא. דאמר רב יהודה אמר רב: ברם זכור אותו האיש לטוב ויהושע בן גמלא שמו, שאלמלא הוא נשתכח תורה מישראל;
סנהדרין יג: והא אמר רב יהודה אמר רב: ברם, זכור אותו האיש לטוב, ורבי יהודה בן בבא שמו, שאילמלא הוא נשתכחו דיני קנסות מישראל.
חולין נד. ברם, זכור אותו האיש לטוב שאמרו שמועה מפיו שמוטה ושחוטה - כשרה, שאי אפשר לשמוטה שתיעשה שחוטה
תלמוד ירושלמי (וילנא) מסכת ברכות פרק ה ר' פינחס בשם ר' סימון כקורא תיגר על מדותיו של הקדוש ברוך הוא על קן ציפור הגיעו רחמיך ועל אותו האיש לא הגיעו רחמיך
I believe that you are a very confused individual and probably a philly boy. Are the Gedolim demonstration against the radical Shalom and his group that are radically trying to distort Halacha and Toras moshe misinai suddenly the radicals? Please stop making a fool of yourself and the philly boys and recognize that the entire Torah world is fighting to preserve Halacha and stop oisa ish!
just pointing out that the term apparently is not exclusively used that way. Please provide a source that it always refers to Yoshke. It seems in fact that it is similar to the term אחר or אחרים
I will not provide such a source, and I never claimed that it does. I am just pointing out that if you would take a poll of literate Jews and ask them what connotation the phrase אותו איש carries, I believe that most would answer that is a reference to "Yoshke," as you call him. You can even put the poll on your page once you figure out who should be held accountable for the heter.
I may be confused but certainly am not a philly boy. Never learned there, none of my family members learned there and I've actually never stepped foot in that yeshivah. But you do seem to lack basic reading comprehension. My statement was that I "guess" (no actual knowledge who is behind this) that it was a radical group based on the "tone of the notice" (e.g. references to "tzei tamei" - which is term commonly used by certain radicals) - not based on the substance of what is being protested. If that wasn't clear enough, I also clarified in my post that my issue was not the demonstration itself (not that I big fan of demonstrations) but on the association with groups that have agendas we do not agree with. But I suppose reading beyond the first sentence was a bit too much for you.
For those who are familiar with Yerushalayim posters ..... They are all extreme in nature, completely black & white in attitude & always use harsh rhetoric & obnoxious wording, that is the idea! Whether it's the cell phone טמאה or videos of smashing computer laptops, anti-IDF DRAFT, anti- parnassah courses, anti long shtiels, or just anti-mixed gender walking on sidewalks or the popular grave digger chilul HASHEM - the signatures are NEVER authentic & a general group called 'Bnei Torah' is useless.
Sorry, not trying to be strident. Forgot to add the :). As for your second question, I would be interested to know the answer to that. In fact, since R' Eidensohn knows who he got the poster from, he can just ask them what they intended to evoke by using that term.
He is commiting suicide, taking down the whole ship with it's passengers. Where are you all when we deed you most? Lo ess lachshos, kum kro lelokecho. What about all those innocent bystanders, Father, Brothers, Yeshivah, Talmidim past present and future, Moetset, Ag...., . Tomus nafshi im .... cannot happen! A meabed atsmo loda'as, umeabed ma shenosnin lo bimlo muven hamila. I firmly believe that TAMAR would not wish such to happen and would rather give it lemaan hashem ulemaan kvod Beis Yisroel. Give it up begin Ovicho, begin ishtecho, begin Kvod Toiroh haKdoisho. Raboisay... Gevald... oid me'at veovodnu. PLEASE PLEASE we plead CHAZOR BOCH. It is you, all by yourself against the world, don't throw it away just like that. Shma Yisrael....
ReplyDelete"Tomus nafshi im .... cannot happen!"
ReplyDeleteZochreini na, zochreini na I guess...
Ani Hakoton find it troubling that they are singling him out because it is POLITICALLY CORRECT not to go after the more primary players. (I think he's only 3rd place in most wanted. ..)
ReplyDeleteA Great point you're bringing up, this whole insanity was done to save tamar let's agree for arguments sake that she's right and she needs help let's assume that Heter is correct, is this the way to help her destroying her life and all of the descendents till the end of time ??? she had a relatively small issue to deal with and now she has an historic issue to contend with . And the kamenetskies parade around being the people with brains!!!!!!!
ReplyDeleteFrom the tone of the notice I would guess it is a radical group. I would hope that the "benei hayeshiva" do not attend. Personally, I am not a fan of most of these demonstrations, but if you want to demonstrate it is important that you know who you are demonstrating with and what the "joint message" being conveyed is. I think this is important from both sides - e.g. those agitating for Get on demand who wish to do so within the bounds of halacha should not align themselves with groups that do not have the same respect of halacha as they will end up to some degree effectively supporting a non-halachic agenda. Similar, the benei hayeshiva need to be careful about aligning themselves with far right groups e.g. the "atzeres tefillah" about the draft of yeshiva students in Manhattan a couple of years ago that was attended by many "bnei yeshivah" and at the same time there were demonstrators holding posters calling Rav Shteinman disgusting things. Like it or not, those bnei yeshivah who attended to some degree effectively supported those posters.
ReplyDeleteNow the discourse has degenerated to the Jerusalem style anonymous pashkivikim,
ReplyDeleteRegardless of the merits of the protest in general, I think that the echoing of the phrase אותו האיש is despicable. It hearkens back to the disgusting posters put up about Rav Kook, and should not be tolerated.
ReplyDeleteI disagree. He's #1. He was the driving force behind all of this. He's the one who lied to RNG. The others were just rubber stamping his decisions.
ReplyDeleteThey should have known better.
ReplyDeleteCorrect, in principle. In practice, that will get nowhere. RNG gave the heter based on lies told to him by Shalom. Unless Shalom retracts his lies, nothing will change. Shalom is the one who has his entire future to lose. Shalom is the one that must clean up the mess.
ReplyDeleteYes these demonstrations are really low , no question about it all the refined gentleman have always look down on this sort of expression, the funny thing is, when something really touch their hearts they go and do the exact same ,demonstrate. can't forget the revulsion the mizrachi Israel has for demonstrations for Shabbos but then has no problem demonstrating what what's really close to their hearts like not giving up lands and the nonreligious crowd revulsion towards the demonstrations for not giving up the land but they have no problem demonstrating say for the high prices of cottage cheese yes it's an ugly business but it's amazingly effective and just might what might be necessary to tip the scales in this case
ReplyDeleteI think that the echoing of the phrase אותו האיש is despicable. It hearkens back to the disgusting posters put up about Rav Kook
ReplyDeleteI highly doubt too many people think of it this way. Certainly your average person has no idea what the wording on posters were circa 1925.
Any news on who is organizing this demonstration?
ReplyDeleteRNG is number one, he gave the heter and with willful blindness to boot. If he'll retract, then everything falls apart, including both of the RSK and 1) everyone will see that what they said does not make a difference and 2) and more importantly, no one in Orthodox Jewish circles will ever even *dream* of pulling off such a shenanigan again.
ReplyDeleteRSK senior is in second place and was initially involved before his son was as is evident from the media. During the 'olden days with her get campaign' I only heard of the R Shmuel being involved (maybe someone can correct me here) and so is evident from his son's letters to RNG. ..
You were asked to post, so you posted. You are a disgusting human being.
ReplyDeleteHey, someone's gotta do the dirty work. ..
ReplyDeleteI don't disagree. But the point is that without his father on board, Rav Nota would never have even considered sticking his neck out. Rav Shalom is a really nice guy, but he doesn't pull the kind of weight Rav Shmuel does.
ReplyDeleteI think Politically Incorrect makes a good point - Rav Shalom is a much softer target. People are scared to death of starting up with Rav Shmuel directly.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_w3ipkL1Dd10/SyZRjQXlIWI/AAAAAAAABKc/25QPbjmwnhU/s1600-h/Tropper.jpg
ReplyDeleteMost readers know that the traditional way to refer to Jesus is אותו האיש.
ReplyDeleteThe same goes for that one.
ReplyDeleteBut is not used exclusively that way- some of many examples
ReplyDeleteחגיגה יג.
ברם, זכור אותו האיש לטוב, וחנניה בן חזקיה שמו, אלמלא הוא נגנז ספר יחזקאל, שהיו דבריו סותרין דברי תורה
בבא בתרא כא.
דאמר רב יהודה אמר רב: ברם זכור אותו האיש לטוב ויהושע בן גמלא שמו, שאלמלא הוא נשתכח תורה מישראל;
סנהדרין יג:
והא אמר רב יהודה אמר רב: ברם, זכור אותו האיש לטוב, ורבי יהודה בן בבא שמו, שאילמלא הוא נשתכחו דיני קנסות מישראל.
חולין נד.
ברם, זכור אותו האיש לטוב שאמרו שמועה מפיו שמוטה ושחוטה - כשרה, שאי אפשר לשמוטה שתיעשה שחוטה
תלמוד ירושלמי (וילנא) מסכת ברכות פרק ה
ר' פינחס בשם ר' סימון כקורא תיגר על מדותיו של הקדוש ברוך הוא על קן ציפור הגיעו רחמיך ועל אותו האיש לא הגיעו רחמיך
You and I both know that it is not being used in the זכור לטוב manner here, so those citations are not so germane.
ReplyDeleteI believe that you are a very confused individual and probably a philly boy. Are the Gedolim demonstration against the radical Shalom and his group that are radically trying to distort Halacha and Toras moshe misinai suddenly the radicals? Please stop making a fool of yourself and the philly boys and recognize that the entire Torah world is fighting to preserve Halacha and stop oisa ish!
ReplyDeletejust pointing out that the term apparently is not exclusively used that way. Please provide a source that it always refers to Yoshke. It seems in fact that it is similar to the term אחר or אחרים
ReplyDeleteI will not provide such a source, and I never claimed that it does. I am just pointing out that if you would take a poll of literate Jews and ask them what connotation the phrase אותו איש carries, I believe that most would answer that is a reference to "Yoshke," as you call him. You can even put the poll on your page once you figure out who should be held accountable for the heter.
ReplyDeleteI may be confused but certainly am not a philly boy. Never learned there, none of my family members learned there and I've actually never stepped foot in that yeshivah. But you do seem to lack basic reading comprehension. My statement was that I "guess" (no actual knowledge who is behind this) that it was a radical group based on the "tone of the notice" (e.g. references to "tzei tamei" - which is term commonly used by certain radicals) - not based on the substance of what is being protested. If that wasn't clear enough, I also clarified in my post that my issue was not the demonstration itself (not that I big fan of demonstrations) but on the association with groups that have agendas we do not agree with. But I suppose reading beyond the first sentence was a bit too much for you.
ReplyDeleteSo did anyone show up to the demonstration?
ReplyDeleteYou can even put the poll on your page once you figure out who should be held accountable for the heter.
ReplyDeleteWow. Why the strident and condescending comment?
it is not being used in the זכור לטוב manner here
ReplyDeleteNeither is this one, the last quote.
תלמוד ירושלמי (וילנא) מסכת ברכות פרק ה
ר' פינחס בשם ר' סימון כקורא תיגר על מדותיו של הקדוש ברוך הוא על קן ציפור הגיעו רחמיך ועל אותו האיש לא הגיעו רחמיך
Did you comment about it back then? Would you? Why not?
ReplyDeleteThey're probably going after #3 cause he's in israel.
ReplyDeleteBugs Bunny.
ReplyDeleteAt least we can be sure that they weren't demonstrating with Hamas, gay rights and get-on-demand activists. ...
ReplyDeletePerhaps this fuss isn't called for here and more so, inappropriate, war was never dignified, gotta do what ya gotta do....
ReplyDeleteFor those who are familiar with Yerushalayim posters ..... They are all extreme in nature, completely black & white in attitude & always use harsh rhetoric & obnoxious wording, that is the idea!
ReplyDeleteWhether it's the cell phone טמאה or videos of smashing computer laptops, anti-IDF DRAFT, anti- parnassah courses, anti long shtiels, or just anti-mixed gender walking on sidewalks or the popular grave digger chilul HASHEM - the signatures are NEVER authentic & a general group called 'Bnei Torah' is useless.
No I didn't. Yes, I would have. I didn't see it.
ReplyDeleteSorry, not trying to be strident. Forgot to add the :).
ReplyDeleteAs for your second question, I would be interested to know the answer to that.
In fact, since R' Eidensohn knows who he got the poster from, he can just ask them what they intended to evoke by using that term.
A fugitive? or also for a Simcha
ReplyDelete