Rav Feldman Shlit"a quotes the "רופא מומחה":
הרופא הפסיכיאטור המומחה קבע את דעתו על פי עובדות ששמע מהאשה על התנהגותו
של הבעל, כמו: כעסו, קמצנותו, פחדיו, דאגותיו, וכו' שכולם מוכיחים שיש לו
המחלות הנ"ל שהן, לדעת הרופא, בלתי הפיכות
Really?
Let's check Tamar's diary entry...
About כעס / anger:
Related OPPOSITE traits are mentioned: "Why I love/like Aharon/what I respect: -respect. Shmiras halashon [wide ranging term meaning does not speak badly about others in any way or curse] ... loving/sweet/ affectionate/gentle to me"
The closest negative trait similar to anger mentioned: "not mature about certain things when upset/feels pressured into doing things he immature - sulks, passive-aggressive, self-absorbed". And "read paper, leave table, doesn't say goodbye etc." Is sulking when feeling pressured & not saying goodbye considered כעס???
About קמצנות / stinginess:
Actually, the OPPOSITE of stinginess is explicitly is mentioned: ""Why I love/like Aharon/what I respect: ... lets me spend money - equal share .... -doesn't pressure me to go back to work". Does that sound like a stingy person???
About דאגותיו-פחדיו / unwarranted fears: Nothing there. Actually, that's a mistake. Stress IS mentioned, but the one with the דאגה, פחד is Tamar, and not Aaron: "Me - anxious/stressed when with family when socializing with others - worry about how Aharon feels and will react"
I don't think this is a minor point. The fact that none of the core issues that the רופא מומחה based his diagnosis on where present at the time that Tamar wrote her diary entry gives great credence to what Rav Feldman suspects, that:
הרבה מהסיפורים שמהם מוכיח הרופא שהבעל אינו נורמלי עד כדי שאין לו רפואה קרו לאחרי הנישואין. מהיכי תיתי שהמחלה, אם היתה, לא התפתחה אחרי הקידושין, שאז כמובן אין כאן ביטול קידושין?
If so, there is obviously no basis for מקח טעות.
Even more importantly, this may show that Aaron is THE VICTIM here, and the anger, etc. that Tamar reported was not the CAUSE, but rather the EFFECT, which RESULTED from TRAUMA that Aaron suffered from being bullied & denigrated.
If my hypothesis is true, Hallachically, Aaron was therefore a) פטור even if did AFTERWARDS say things he wasn't supposed to (as per the סמ"ע חו"מ ס' רכ"ח ס"ק ד), and b) surely not obligated to grant a get (as per the the רמ"א אהע"ז ס' קנ"ד ס"ג).
This is the only logical way I can understand the discrepancy between the journal entry and the עובדות ששמע מהאשה.
Aaron's correct diagnosis might then be:
Complex post-traumatic stress disorder
(C-PTSD) also known as developmental trauma disorder (DTD) or complex trauma is a psychological injury that results from protracted exposure to prolonged social and/or interpersonal trauma in the context of dependence, captivity or entrapment (a situation lacking a viable escape).
Dear Rabbi Eidensohn:
Do you think this discrepancy should be brought to the attention of the רבנים הגאונים שליט"א?
MECHO'O
ReplyDeleteAs every BEN-DAAS already knows that the case of T.E. is baseless. It is time to stop being so disrespectful to A.F.
The man is a totally normal person and he should be left alone. It is time to ask him for MECHILO.
I just wonder what is the percentage of people in general society who are able to do the job that he has. The idea that anything is wrong with him is baseless and well proven otherwise.
Enough is enough
"Do you think this discrepancy should be brought to the attention of the רבנים הגאונים שליט"א?
ReplyDeleteWhich discrepancy are the rabbonim unaware of?
You might have notice that Rabbi Feldman did not refer to the Diary - even though it was very relevant to his exposition. Other Rabbnonim are clearly not aware that there was a diary and that it clearly contradicts the views of the expert mental health professionals
ReplyDeleteIf indeed there is a problem of her marriage why are not efforts being made to put pressure on the previous husband to give a get so that we do not increase mamzarim
ReplyDeleteWhy should the victim (Aharon) be further victimized?
ReplyDeleteDoes he need to give up the only bargaining chip that he has left, the Get that his wife desperately needs, which might encourage her to be reasonable about his visitation rights??? Why should he?
Anybody out there that is truly concerned about future mamzerim, should PLEASE contact Rabbi Greenblatt ASAP, and beg him to admit his mistake, and that he should advise הנואפים הגדולים that they must separate from each other.
Alternatively, anyone truly concerned, can contact הנואפים הגדולים on his own, and beg them to at least use contraceptive methods...
About דאגותיו-פחדיו / unwarranted fears: Nothing there. Actually, that's
ReplyDeletea mistake. Stress IS mentioned, but the one with the דאגה, פחד is
Tamar, and not Aaron: "Me - anxious/stressed when with family when
socializing with others - worry about how Aharon feels and will react"
This could be referring to the husband's alleged social anxiety and awkwardness. I read it as her being stressed by anticipation of his negative feelings and reactions when socializing with family or others.
The correct way to stop the increase in mamzeirim is for her to get a Get from her second husband.
ReplyDeleteIt was known for some time that the woman and her poskim considered the 1st marriage void as a mekach taus, the Daas Torah blog could have encouraged the giving of the Get, but it seems that that it is more important for this blog to discourage the giving of the Get than to prevent potential Eishe Ish.
ReplyDeleteThis is not to say that Daas Torah blog is not genuinely bothered by potential Eishe Ish; I am just saying that it is a lower priority to this blog to prevent potential Eishe Ish than encouraging a husband to refuse to give a Get until his demands are met (which is a bigger priority of this blog).
The question is, what is the main issue that is really bothering everyone here? It is possible that many people on this blog are not aware of their subconscious motivations. Many people’s underlying frustrations might really be that they couldn’t keep this woman as an agunah.
She isn't and never was an agunah. Receiving a Get was always within her hands and within her means. Simply by ceasing her non-halachic wrongdoings against her husband. That would have, and still will, result in her receiving a Get, as she well knows.
ReplyDeleteThe husband is well within his halachic and moral rights to not immediately giver her a Get as she demands. She is not within her halachic rights to have abandoned and disregarded the rulings of the Baltimore Beis Din and have moved their child to a different city and to have sued him in non-Jewish court/arkoyos.
Preventing her becoming an adulteress produced of bastards is within her hands not his.
@lukshen kugel
ReplyDeleteI don't think that you're being fair with your assessment.
RDE raised a protest at the time when it was announced that "Tamar is Free". No one had a clue as to why and how, and those behind her weren't talking. For example, Joe Orlow called RSK to inquire about it, and his questioning was rebuffed. Beyond that, there is nothing to protest about someone's intent to sin, and you can't criticize phantom mattirim that may or may not exist.
Even if a so-called heter exists, it was still hoped that any sane Torah observant person would run in the opposite direction when he would be suggested such a great shidduch!
Well sanity has not prevailed, and unfortunately, the dastardly deed was allegedly done. Therefore, now is the time to speak up!
Any comments to the effect of not being obligated to give a Get, are not due a lack of concern about preventing an eishes ish from committing adultery, rather that this concern does not exist in a vacuum. You can't invoke one halacha (אשת איש, which Tamar isn't too concerned about) and ignore the פסק of big רבנים, that a victim of ערכאות doesn't need to give a Get until the wrongs have been corrected.
The elephant in the room 'VISITATION RIGHTS'!!!!
ReplyDeleteTamar refused to relinquish normal visitation to her husband .He was willing to give a get if and when this is fixed .
He was within his rights to refuse her a get until this gets resolved
Everyone really knows that he is Normal , its just about Tamars /Kamenetsky Nitzachon going wild .
Old respected Rabbonim are going senile! causing untold harm to the Agudah and now causing Giant Chilul Hashem.!
ivus Hadeen. and now Momzerim!
Let them be choizer bitshuvah.!
Correct. My point wasn't to diagnose Tamar - just to note that had the purported paranoia been manifested during their time together, wouldn't she have mentioned the problem in her diary entry? She might have forgotten some of his issues - but if she was able to not her stress she surely would have noted his, too - if it had been apparent.
ReplyDeleteThe diary might have been about how she feels, not a minute to minute chronicle of events. I happen to think that this entry shows that he would react badly to situations that displeased him, badly enough to cause his wife stress and anxiety in anticipation of his intemperate response. Whether or not that rises to the level of oppression and/or mental illness is not clear, but it does not speak well of him if true.
ReplyDeleteCausing other people distress was never valid ground for a DSM diagnosis.
ReplyDeleteDr. Frances (chair of DSM IV taskforce) quotes Marianne Kuzujanakis, MD, MPH, Director of SENG (Supporting
Emotional Needs of the Gifted) on this point:
"Labels, treatments, and medications are meant to alleviate suffering in the recipients, not as a means to make those around them happy".
THIS is exactly the problem - being "different" is not an illness.
"Labels, treatments, and medications are meant to alleviate suffering in
ReplyDeletethe recipients, not as a means to make those around them happy
That may be the ideal, though I highly doubt it's honored in the breach. Besides, when it comes to a question of bitul kiddushin, it's all about how the patient affects others; namely, the wife, and not at all about his own suffering.
In any case, I don't see the relevance, b/c nowhere did I say that her discomfort is proof of his derangement.
Your comment inspired me to write a long rebuttal. I hope RDE posts it, and please feel free to continue the discussion there.
ReplyDelete