There was a heimishe hardware store in Williamsburg (- or was it Boro Park?) that was selling various electrical appliances for preparing food. As we all know such appliances need to be toveled or modified in some way before they can be used- unless they were produced by a Jewish factory.
An avreich went in to buy a coffee maker. Over the appliances was a large signed that all the appliances sold in the store could be used without immersing them in a mikve. The avreich was clearly puzzled when he noticed that all the appliances were in sealed boxes which were all clearly labeled as being made in China. He went to the store owner and asked how he could sell such as ready to use without first immersing them in a mikve?
The owner stroked his beard and said, it is simple - the rav he used had told him that all the appliances were fully useable without immersion in a mikveh. The avreich was very surprised as he had spent much time in learning the sources on this matter and there was simply no way a sealed appliance manufactured in a Chinese factory could be used straight out of the box.
He quickly hurried to the rav's house to ask him the basis of his psak. The rav greeted him warmly and listened to his learned discourse as to why the appliances needed to be immersed first. After the avreich had impressively recited all the sources from the gemora to the contemporary poskim including the Artscroll volume on kitchen halachos - he paused and waited for a response from this learned rav.
The rav stroked his beard a few times and then said. "The basis of this psak is secret and I have taken out a patent on it. I can not reveal it to anyone - you will simply have to take my word that I have found a heter."
Satire?
ReplyDeleteIt is obvious that the claim of heter has no credibility and she must be muchzak to be eishes ish until it is proven otherwise. The main issue is the fact that hardly anyone protests such a heter that is assumed to be coming from a famous yeshiva.
ReplyDeletejust reported what he said
ReplyDeleteI find it quite ironic that the post bashing the gedolim who matired for staying anonymous is written besheim an anonymous gadol.
ReplyDeleteWhy doesn't ORA chase the couple all over the place to give and take a Get. BTW, it has all the Chiyuv Get ingredients for all parties involved since conception. They can even come from her side, siding with her, beat him up real good in real life not only in absentia. If he still doesn't comply, we declare him insane and mafkia the kidushin lemafrea after spiking his drink with some secret ingredient and Wallah, both are FREE and FREE AGAIN. It wouldn't be so funny if it weren't so sad.
ReplyDeleteHere is one for those in the know. Since there is a cherem D'rabeinu Gershom for a Get baal korcho, what happens if some choliganes did give her a good beating until she agreed to take a Get, is it like masne al mah shekosuv baTorah ma sheosui ossui utno'o kayom. You don't have to answer that, I just thought it would be interesting what happens on the flip side of the coin.
On a more serious note, what happened to Mendel Epstein's court case. It is way overdue.
Enough is enough! You keep claiming that ALL the Rabbonim are against Rabbis SK and NG. Let them come out publicly and denounce what is happening. The general public can not rely only on you and your brother. Let's see a formal psak halacha! One would think that the Baltimore beis Din would be the first to protest what has happened.
ReplyDeleteBen you must be a navi!
ReplyDeleteDov - there is a major difference between psak halacha and providing a mashal! See Bava Kama 2b
ReplyDeleteתלמוד בבלי מסכת בבא קמא דף ב/ב
וכי תימא דברי תורה מדברי קבלה לא ילפינן תא שמע בכור שורו הדר לו והאי מילף הוא גילוי מילתא בעלמא הוא דנגיחה בקרן הוא
And of course i realize there is. Regardless of whether your anonymous gadol has a halachic obligation to identify himself (which i agree with you he doesnt) it is still of interest that he chooses to retain his anonymity while criticizing anothers.
ReplyDeleteDov he didn't chose to retain his anonymity. He was asked his views on the matter. He said he was not familiar with the details but felt it appropriate to comment on the issue of secret psak. The issue of being anonymous was not part of the conversation.
ReplyDeleteSo then why cant you provide us this "gadol's" name?
ReplyDeleteHe wasn't ask to make a public statement in the discussion and since he is in fact considering his public stance - I don't see it either likely or beneficial as to who told a story that doesn't require genius in Torah to understand
ReplyDeleteThis is so obvious the question is why you are asking the question
Curiosity. On a related note being that r greenblatt is probably the most prolific mesader gittin there ever was or will be in the united states, i hope the writers of the forthcoming kol korei are extremely careful in their wording realizing that what they say about him will potentially impact literally thousands of people.
ReplyDeleteAlso being that your brother seems to have stopped replying to the comments against him perhaps you can clarify for me- does he hold that any woman who remarried after a reform or civil marriage without a get as per r moshes psak is really an eishes ish whose chilren are mamzerim since r henkin (as well as many others) disagreed with him. If so we have thousands of mamzerim walking around.
what happened to Mendel Epstein's court case. It is way overdue.
ReplyDeleteSentencing was postponed, again!, until December. His time will come.
Dov, would you marry a woman or marry your son to a woman who is the product of a Reform mother's second marriage?
ReplyDeleteBaltimore? The city that specializes in covering up for high-end rabbinic pedophiles, even at Ner Israel? They are going to be "moreh derech" now? How funny!
ReplyDeleteOr maybe will Rav Aron Feldman be "orchestrating" a long-distance "hit job" on behalf of his true boss, Rav Aron Schechter? since Rav Feldman does not make a move without first clearing it with RAS who installed him in Ner Israel as RY against the wishes of the Neugergers in the first place.
It still looks like an all-out war to wipe out the Kaminetskys and Feinsteins with Rabbi Greenblatt in one fell swoop by the forces aligned with the Machmirim and that can only mean some involvement by RAS and his yes-men allies that are feverishly at work behind the scenes because they have long-standing scored to settle with the Feinsteins, Kaminetskys, and Greenblatts.
Or will it be Rav Heineman who was the one who rounded up the "meiah rabbanim" for the "heter" that allowed Rabbi Malkiel Kotler to remarry without getting a get from his first wife, the daughter of Rav Michel FEINSTEIN from Rav Moshe Feinstein's family, that he's still married to?
Cant wait to see who the great mystery "tzadikim" are going to be?
With all this "secrecy" on all sides, anything is possible!
So will your time come dishonesty!
ReplyDeleteShmo, these are Baal teshuva type of Shaylos, not for FFBs, so stop being an ibber-chuchem! What goes on outside of the Charedi world is quite often mind-blowing and requires difficult Pesakim, I wouldn't want to be or envy any bona fide Posek involved in that area, so stop being a wise guy.
ReplyDeleteBy the way, this entire scenario of the "moshul" is al pi Chumra because as far as anyone knows, if an appliance is attached with a chord to an electrical outlet it is regarded as Mechuba LeKarka and hence does NOT require Tevilas Keilim.
ReplyDeleteMaybe in the very Frum circles they take appliances apart or even take the risk of soaking them in a Mikvas Keilim, but most people rely on the Heter that as long as an appliance is attached to a an electrical outlet it does not need to be Toiveled.
Has anyone heard of people who Toivel appliances or take them apart, maybe in Yerushalyim but NOT in Boro Park or the Frum world in North America.
So how can you bring such a wrong "moshul" even? And besides the Gadol does not claim to be a Posek, even if he is Rosh Yeshiva it makes no difference,m you wouldn't call him with a Shaylo as to what to do with a new toaster or coffee-maker or microwave and they are all made in China today.
Something is very fishy if you have to resort to such a pathetic, and INCORRECT yet, "example"! Please get serious.
They are selling a brand of appliances in willy, boro park, and monsry (don't know about lakewood) that has a hechsher that doesn't need to be toveled, implication that the importer is a chassid. That is NOT a valid reason not to tovel . (All above true.) Perhaps i should ask the rov baal hamachshir, but qhether i agree or not, the rov will claim 'trade secret' in the production, but not in the 'torah behind it. Here, everything is secret.
ReplyDeleteRaP we don't live in the same halachic community
ReplyDeleteThe conspiracy continues... tune in tomorrow for RaPs next episode of The Great Conspiracy and the secret handshake that the Costa Rabbinostra uses to infiltrate and take over the Torah world without ever firing a single shot.
ReplyDeleteDon't miss it!
As far as I know, R' Notta is considered an expert on WRITING Gittin, and no one has questioned the Gittin that he has had written.
ReplyDeleteI also give credit to R' Notta, for the dedication he had over the years to track down husbands who divorced their wives, and neglected to give them a Get. As was told to me, many a Sunday was devoted in tracking down these men, and politely convincing them to agree to have a Get written and delivered to their wives.
ועל זה יבא על שכרו
(Here's a nice story about this:
http://www.kveller.com/article/getting-a-get/
The problem in this case, is that by allegedly deciding in this case that a Get is not necessary, and a Get
need NOT be written, he seemed to have overstepped his bounds and ventured into new territory beyond his level of expertise.
Wrong. That heter is universally rejected (as it seems is r moshes regarding toaster ovens.
ReplyDeleteDid you learn in chaim berlin?
ReplyDeleteHonestly probably not. But i definitely wouldnt say theyre mamzerim keneged r moshe. But that's irrelevant i was not trying to imply anything i just wanted to know whether r david eidensohn is consistent in his views and will publically state that he holds that we have thousands of mamzerim walking around (which is a far far greater issue than the children of one couple from Memphis) or if this case is different for some reason.
ReplyDeleteNot nogeiah the frum olam?! What planet do you live on? Thats such a shtus it shouldnt need a response. Anyone who doesnt live in a cave knows plenty of people who have chareidi parents and are married to people with bt parents. In all likelihood some of their grandchildren will one day be marrying your grandchildren.
ReplyDeleteI don't understand. I'm still waiting for a recognized gadol batorah to denounce the tamar Epstein marriage.
ReplyDeleteIf you're talking about the heter of mechubar l'karka, who decided, on whose authority, that it is "universally rejected?" I was told this heter by a very chashuve poseik recently. It's ridiculous the way people decide from their own boich which pesakim are "accepted" or "rejected."
ReplyDeleteI understand exactly however i can easily envision a kol korei calling into question all divorces he ever officiated/arranged
ReplyDeletepeople with BT parents? so do frum people discriminate also about FFB ben BTs?
ReplyDeleteSome of the posts here are quite shocking. Being a mamzer isn't something you automatically are if you are the child of an eishes ish. It is a halachic status a rabbi/bes din can give to someone they say is the son of eishes ish. And they hardly ever do so. Even when it is pretty obvious that it is the case. Rav Ovadiya Yoseph pretty much ruled out the possibility of there ever being a mamzer when he declared the daughter of a woman who remarried without a get as not a mamzer. His claims included, the ketuba of the original marriage had been 'lost' so there was no proof it had happened and the original husband visited to pay alimony and if he is the husband, one can assume that during one of the visits he may have fathered the girl.
ReplyDeleteRav Moshe Feinstein ruled that a certain second husband who insisted that a child was his is ignored because the child was obviously conceived before a get had been given from the first marriage and believing the second husband would mean the child was a mamzer. He also had various technical halachic reasons for his ruling such as him claiming that he is the father is self incriminating so we don't believe him.
In short, even thought in both cases it was obvious that the children were technically mamzerim, the gedolim ruled that they were not.
And then you have this blog here where you are all trying your hardest to make mamzerim. You vigilantes need to calm down and stop trying to be so pedantic about halachic issues that are quite obviously way above your understanding. Such ignorance of halachic process and self righteousness about one case with the excuse that you are trying to protect klal yisrael from mamzerim. Seriously, do they really think all religious women are faithful? Do they think non religious women wait for a get? Maybe a dna test should be performed before every marriage. There are technical 'mamzerim' everywhere. But do we care? no, because not only is it not our job to halachicly declare them as mamzerim but as Rav Ovadya and Rav Moshe did, we should be coming up with any excuse to show that there is no issue.
Sometimes. Not always. Not never. Depends on the person. And more boys do than girls. Because they can.
ReplyDeleteRemember our ills always come back to the shidduch crisis. Perhaps you should read ami magazine more...
No ones authority. Im simply making an observation. Anyone who has spent any serious time learning hilchos tvilas keilim is aware of this.
ReplyDeleteOf course this may be a boich observation but to anyone reasonably familiar with the subject your words dont need refutation nor mine confirmation. This does not preclude however a rav who thinks its correct from paskening like it assuming hes a bar hachi.
I would really like to know who this choshuv poseik you spoke to was as it is quite interesting and assuming we have the same definition of chashuv would be practically the first chashuv posek since the chelkas yaakov (according to my boich) to go with this sevara.
And one must always be cognizant when criticizing someone else's assuredness that it is not, in fact, eclipsed by you own. Kol tuv.
I actually heard she took the get after her mother died several years ago, if so, he's no longer married to her...
ReplyDeleteRaP - please check your sources and let me know if that's fact.
I agree with most of what you wrote but the reason for koach deheteira adif has nothing to do with what you said. Look at rashi in beitza 2b for the real reason
ReplyDeleteI don't see that happening. R' Notta has a חזקת כשרות regarding the technical aspect of writing and arranging Gittin, and even now no one is questioning the Gittin that he has had written. The protest here is about a particular action, not about the person.
ReplyDelete[I would be more concerned about Gittin arranged by rabbis who are known
to coerce husbands to give a Get. This might be a ריעותא in any Get that
was arranged by them].
Of course, moving forward, this story puts a question mark on
the sense of judgment regarding any psak/pronouncement which may come from
the camp of people who permit an eishes ish to remarry without a Get.
"I actually heard she took the get after her mother died several years ago, if so, he's no longer married to her..."
ReplyDeleteHow about you check your sources first and get back to us.
Keep drinking the Cool Aid, shmo, it's obvious you are very high on it and cannot see what is happening in front of your eyes!
ReplyDeleteMr. Shechter is not "Santa Claus" and you are not the "tooth fairy" either and dishonesty needs to go on a diet ASAP, you know what I mean!
Uva 'RaP' Venatal es Sechar Kulam for speaking the truth, and you know it, that's why you are here in the first place with your buddy dishonesty! I take is as a backhanded compliment that such "hard hitters" were summoned to take me up on this Blog. What fools you both are!
Dov stop speaking trash. The Charedi world is vast. There are hundreds of thousands of different types of Jews in the Charedi and Frum worlds: Chasidim, Yeshivisha people, Sefardim, American Charedim versus Israeli Charedim etc, etc. There is not one style or type of FFB, and there is not one type of BT.
ReplyDeleteSo please do not throw in things and create falls alarms that will not effect most people. Those who like to get into those type of tangles only have themselves to blame and do not have a realistic picture of themselves.
If one group of people and Charedim don't like you, then move on, there are plenty of other Charedi and Frum Jews who will welcome you. This is a skill in life, do not bang your head against a brick wall. If it's there, move on and find a way to put your head together with like-minded people. Calm down! HKB"H is running the world.
RaP your explanation is simply wrong. We don't pasken by the percentage of baalei baatim who follow halacha.
ReplyDeleteThe sources I quoted yesterday were all American including YU - that most poskim require tevila - including the supreme American posek - Rav Moshe Feinstein.
For you to twist this into an Israeli vs American issue is absurd and totally ignores the content of what I wrote. But it is not unusual for you to twist an issue into something which allows you to stand on a soapbox.
Bottom line: Your baale Baatishe view of halacha that if there is a view that permits something than that is the halacha - goes against the understanding of anyone who spent more than 5 minutes in yeshiva.
If you go to most American poskim and ask them whether it needs tevila they will say yes. When I was in America I asked Rav Asher Zimmerman about an electric meat slicer. He told me to tovel the blade assembly which was detachable separately and then to tovel it assembled but not the motor itself. Why wasn't he aware that electrically appliance don't need a mikveh?
When was the last time you asked a posek? Or do you simply google the topic and if there is a heter you take it?
RaP you are badly distorting the issue. Tell me which posek told you that you don't need to tovel. If your posek did in fact tell you - ask him whether the majority of poskim agree with him. It is clear that the majority of poskim do not agree with you view of halacha.
ReplyDeleteYour concept of Koach deheira adif is wrong. It does not mean that anytime there is a minority view that is lenient that it overwhelms all the other views that are machmir.
This is not about being frum - it is about whether psak is simply to find out if anybody ever permitted something. Take the time of reading Igros Moshe or any other accepted responsa seforim - none of them take your approach.
I just read through the 4 page in the sefer Tevilas Keylim about electrical appliance. According to you this is a waste because if he only understood that there is no need to tovel electrical appliacnes he didn't need to waste his time thinking about the issue.
Agreed 100%! Couldn't have said it any better!
ReplyDeleteDavid it seems you are not familiar with the halachic literature on mamzer. When a rav is discussing the issue of adultery he will say there is a problem that the children will be mamzerim. That is what we are discussing here. An invalid or no GET leads to the children becoming mamzerim.
ReplyDeleteThe examples you bring are from a different endeavor - looking for a justification for not saying the children are mamzerim because of a techincality. When a posek is trying to save a child from the status of mamzer he uses a different approach then he does when he is discussing a woman whose marriage might constitute adultery and the problem of the children being mamzerim.
Thus your criticism is not inaccurate. Poskim do not avoid stating the marriage of a woman with a get me'usa or other problem will be mamzerim because it is possible that a posek with find a loophole.
In the present situation the poskim I hae consulted have all said that Tamar Epstein is an eishes ish and by remarrying without a get she is committing adultery and her new children will be mamzerim.
Ask you local posek whether it is appropriate to say that the children of an adulterous relationship will be mamzerim. Please get back with his name and his reply
In the meantime read through the many posts on this blog regarding the problem of get me'usa and you will notice it is stated that this issue is increasing mamzerim or that the children will be mamerim.
In essence you are saying that we shouldn't mention that jumping off the roof of a building is dangerous because there are some people who have survived the fall!
RaP you managed to do an interesting song and dance filled with red herrings. Bottom line if you ask your posek will he tell you to tovel it? The answer is yes. But you don't ask your posek and say you only use him for important issues. You pasken these "unimportant" questions and you don't want to know that your posek doesn't agree with you.
ReplyDeleteYou tried turning this simple question into an Israeli vs American issue - but it is not since the majority of poskim cited are American - including Rav Moshe Feinstein. You tried turning into a Baal teshuva thing - it is not because the poskim are not baalei teshuva but they say to tovel the appliance. Even the article you cite at the end clearly indicates that you should tovel your appliance - even thought there is a minority view that you don't need to.
Thus you are positing a vast no man's land between what poskim say and what we need to observe. You don't ask poskim certain questions because you observe what people do or what your children were taught or what some rav said in a shiur. WHAT DO YOUR POSKIM SAY? The answer that you don't want to hear is that you should tovel the appliances.
Again psak doesn't mean discovering there is a view that permits something - it is deciding the best way to relate the view of the poskim to a particle issue.
Please don't be shy - ask your posek whether it is appropirate for a ben Torah not to tovel all electrical appliances. You might be surprised by his answer
Some of the posts here are quite shocking. Being a mamzer isn't
ReplyDeletesomething you automatically are if you are the child of an eishes ish
Do you agree with this statement?
It is true that a person is not automatically a mamzer if he/she is born from an adulterous relationship. However it is true that if it known that he/she is born from an adulterous relationship then he/she is automatically a mamzer.
ReplyDeleteThus Eliyahu will not come and tell us that someone is a mamzer that we didn't know was from an adulterous relationship. Because there is no prohibition of marry an unknown product of an adulterous relationship. As opposed to the fact that eating bacon - even if it is not known to be bacon - is still a sin beshogeg.
The case of Tamar Epstein however is clearly an adulterous relationship and has been certified as such by a number of poskim who have been consulted.
While it is possible that some ancestor of her mother's might be shown to be a non Jew and that as a consequence Tamar is not Jewish and thus is incapable of producing mamzerim - it isn't likely. Or it might happen that someone can prove that Tamar didn't marry Aharon - we don't rely on such unlikely events to avoid protesting the obvious.
Again the question is the starting point - what chazaka does the person have. A person who has a chezkas kashrus is generally not investigated and such investigation are discouraged. In the present case where there has been years of publicity that Tamar is an eishis ish - to suddenly claim that she isn't and doesn't need a get without any explanation - does not change her chazaka.
A woman who has a chazaka that she is an eishis eish who marries without a get is presumed to be an adulteress.
"it is true that if it known that he/she is born from an adulterous relationship then he/she is automatically a mamzer"
ReplyDeleteTo whom this has to be known? Family? Bais din, Neighbours? and in general can you point to the mekor of your post so I can look it up
Thank you
Start with Even HaEzer 4
ReplyDeleteשו"ע אבן העזר - סימן ד
(יג) איזהו ממזר, זה הבא מאחת מכל העריות, בין בחייבי מיתות בין בחייבי כריתות, חוץ מהבא מהנדה שאע"פ שהוא פגום אינו ממזר אפילו מדרבנן:
(יד) האשה שהיה בעלה במדינת הים ושהה שם יותר מי"ב חדש וילדה אחר י"ב חדש, הולד ממזר, שאין הולד שוהה במעי אמו יותר מי"ב חדש. ויש מי שאומר שאינו בחזקת ממזר. וכיון דפלוגתא הוא, הוי ספק ממזר: הגה - אבל תוך י"ב חדש אין לחוש, דאמרינן דאשתהי כל כך במעי אמו (כעובדא פרק הערל וכך כתב מהרי"ק). ודוקא שלא ראו בה דבר מכוער, אבל אם ראו בה דבר מכוער לא אמרינן דאשתהי כ"כ, וחיישינן ליה (בתשובת מיימוני). אשה שנתעברה מבעלה סוף סיון, וילדה תחילת כסליו, אע"פ שאין ביניהן רק חמשה חדשים לא חיישינן לבנה לומר שהיתה מעוברת קודם לכן, דהחדשים גורמים (עיין לקמן סימן קנ"ו סעיף ד') והוה ליה בן ז' (בתשובת ר"י מינץ סימן ו). ואפילו הפילה בתשרי, ושמעה הולד בוכה, לא חיישינן שהיתה מעוברת קודם לכן, דאפשר לו לבכות לחמשה חדשים אלא שהוא נפל ואינו ראוי להיות קיים (בב"י בשם תשובה שכך השיב הר"ר דוראן) (הובא בסוף הטור סי' קע"ח):
(טו) אשת איש שיצא עליה קול שהיתה מזנה תחת בעלה, והכל מרננים אחריה, אין חוששין לבניה שמא הם ממזרים, שרוב בעילות תולים בבעל. אבל היא בעצמה, חוששין לה משום זונה. וכהן חושש לה מדין תורה. (ואם בעלה כהן, חוששין על בניה שהם חללים) (מהרי"ו סימן כ"ד) . וישראל, אם רוצה להתרחק מן הכיעור ואם היא פרוצה ביותר, חוששין אף לבנים: הגה - ומ"מ היא נאמנת לומר על בניה שהם כשרים (מהר"מ פאדוואה סימן ל"ג). היתה פרוצה כשהיתה פנויה או ארוסה, ולא היתה פרוצה לאחר נישואין, אע"פ שראוה מנאפת פעם אחת, בניה כשרים (ג"ז שם):
Oh sorry I apologize. When your brain is so full of trash its hard to stop it from coming out of your mouth. It's my fault. But i didnt realize that the only things worthy of discussion are those that affect "most people". I will quickly write letters to all newspapers and blogs informing them that they should stop their publications immediately being that 99% of what they discuss does not affect "most people".
ReplyDeleteInstead I will follow your advice and further retreat into my own subsection of likeminded jews and ignore everone else. Now that is true kol yisrael arevim zeh bazeh. Who said we dont have achdus anymore!
Now if you'll excuse me i will follow your lead and go hondle about the terrorism in israel. Oh wait forget it that doesnt affect my little click of jews nor "most people", only a small monirity living in yerushalyim. Hashem must be so proud of me!
You keep missing my point of course I believe r greenblatt has a chezkas kashrus but how many people resd the slifkin ban and picked up on the hairsplitting chiluk that hes not a kofer just wrote kefira "and may beone of the lamed bav tzadikim"
ReplyDeleteI'm not retailing the rov's name. Suffice to say, he's a prominent rav and poseik who is widely recognized and accepted. And "learning hilchos tevilas keilim" doesn't make you an expert or an authority on what pesakim are supposedly "rejected." Again, rejected by whom, and on what authority? If you mean rejected by most kollel yungeleit and baalei baatim learning hilchos tevilas keilim, I can only laugh.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea what your final paragraph is meant to convey.
CONFIDENTIAL
ReplyDeleteand
Sodi Beyoter!
@Bad_RaP
uLechol man deboye lemeida - with all due respect,
Shlomchon yasgei,
Al 'do veal 'ho, veal red herring , red lox, and red wine. First you must
drink arba kosot.and I will let you in on iskei - sod H' lireiov, vekivan
shenichnas yayin yotso sod, after explaining how the moshol is doime
lenimshal.
Since it is yodua lechol the phrase of 'Esther karka olam hi', therein lies
the HETER nisuin, may it be in Yericho Ir haTmarim, Shushan, ubechol assar
veassar, Veraya ledovor, it is domeh letvilas keilim of an Oven Toaster,
mechubar lekarka vechulhu vechulhu. Those that are machmir to toivel an
Oventoaster, yesh lohem al ma lismoch, since not all outlests have grounding,
umishum maris ayin and marin bishin and meshum lo plug, ukedei lo levayesh es mi
she'ein lo, omrinan lei Tvoil Tvoil.
And now for the secret and confidential ingredient recipe, as to why it
should remain a secret.
We find it in Talmud ke'ein ze, ukvar hoyo dovor meoilom. See Masechet
Yoma, on the ma'asseh haktoires, velechem haponim etc.
hogres
ben levi hoyo yodea perek beshir velo rotso
lelamed,
shvuah
hi beyodenu she'ein marin ossoi lechol odom,
shemo
yilmod odom she'eino mehugen veyeilech ...
lirois bisdos
acheirim, and
kol
zman shebeis aba hayu kayomim lo hoyu mosrin oso lechol
odom,
So
there you have it all wRaPped_Up.
And
for you the baal hasimcha, why the Bad_Rap?
Meshum
ma'asse shehoyo:
hahu
yenuka dedorish bechashmal venafka nura
veochlessei.
and
was toiveled mido keneged mido bearbaim saa, umedame milsei
lemilsei.
Therefore,
Kol mi she'eino baki betiv Chashmal (Electricity be"laaz) lo yehei esek imahem. If you don't comply, you can become toast like in a ToasterOven Kmo shene'emar
Vehevei zahir begachlasan...
..."I
will repeat, you chose a very poor example to "prove" your point and in the
process you actually hurt your own cause in this regard.
...
Boso
listom, venimtsa mefaresh. Actually this nimshal is kolea el haSa'arah. If you
don't like it and it is not to your taste, 'zits du of an Oven Toaster un ich
vel dir geben a moshul' mit a Red Herring with Zalts un Schmalts, Matyas,
Cream, with all colors of the rainbow and with all the bells and whistles. Right
you are, something is very fishy after all, and mmm... it smells all the way to high
heaven.
Seriously,
With all this "secrecy" on all sides, anything is
possible!
And
as for good measure and a good piece of advice, ein li esek
benistoros.
Care to elaborate, dear RaPper?
ReplyDeleteNo, I am saying that the only one with the right to declare that she is actually jumping off the building is the head local security advisor. All other head non local security advisers should not be spreading that she jumped off a building and therefore implying that there will be people injured from the fall.
ReplyDeleteThey are the ones who are declaring that people will be injured. It is not their job to involve themselves and make comments about jumping off buildings outside their area of authority.
I think that the public is savvy enough to make the difference. (BTW, this should not be misconstrued as me taking sides in the Slifkin affair). What a person writes is revelatory of what he thinks. If someone writes kefira, this reveals that his thinking is warped, and he ceases to be someone who we seek to learn Torah from him, even if he does many mitzvos. That person is off our rebbe list.
ReplyDeleteאם דומה הרב למלאך ה' צבקות, תורה יבקשו מפיהו; ואם לאו, אל יבקשו תורה מפיהו.
However if someone makes a wrong psak, it merely shows that they made a mistake in this issue, but this doesn't mean that the person is treif. In other matters where we know him to be reliable, we can rely on him.
I recall being told, that it was said by one of the Gedolim (from the camp of
people opposed to one of the rulings of R' Moshe Feinstein) that he expressed
himself as follows:
"א גרויסע מענטש האט געמאכט א גרויסע טעות"
(Yiddish: "A great man made a great mistake").
This statement is instructive. Yes, it happens that great people make great mistakes, but we are open-minded enough to be able to still recognize them for their greatness in other matters.
The reason some people are mekel regarding to tovelling certain electronics is not because of mechubar likarka but a combination of ither svaras
ReplyDeleteIf memory serves the nesivos has a teshuva to r akiva eiger where amongst other things he says that the status qualitities and midos inherent to a mamzer go basar what the poskim decide and not after the objective mitzius. I.e. whether a child is a mamzer is totally up to what the (intellectually honest) rabbonim decide and not on his actual provenance or dna. Sort of like kiddush hachodesh.
ReplyDeleteThis is beyond ridiculous. Pick up your phone and call any random sampling of poskim and you will see that you are wrong. This is beyond obvious to anyone remotely familiar with the current accepted psakim in this inyan. How about go back to the posek you originally asked and im sure hell himself admit to you hes a daas yachid on this. I can imagine many people reading this thread and chuckling at your repeated stubbornness on this issue despite being so clearly wrong. There is nothing left to discuss you are ignorant on the issue so a convrsation is pointless you will keep on saying how do i know this is the accepted psak and i will keep saying that i know the inyan alittle bit so i know you will then say meyheicha teisi and the circle will start again.
ReplyDeleteInteresting how the one thing you found to support your position is in fact yet another rav rejecting the chelkas yaakov!
ReplyDeleteWho has ever demonstrated that there is any way to make electrical appliances as safe to use after tevila as before? I detect a lot of amateur guesswork and wishful thinking.
ReplyDeleteYou're the one who is being ridiculous. You admit you have no source, yet you assert that the pesak is rejected. By whom, you do not know.
ReplyDeleteMy ignorance on the issue is not the point. What is the point is that I know the pesak is not rejected, b/c I had it paskened for me by a rav who, unlike you, doesn't just "know the inyan a little bit."
I mostly agree with you. But 2 points: 1 you have greater faith in the masses than i do 2 you are correct when one is ta'a bishikul hadaas but when its ta'a bidvar mishnah or ta'a mishum negios corruption bribery etc its a whole different story.
ReplyDelete1] Don't forget, that "kol koreis" are not written by "the masses". They are generally written by reasonable people, who are knowledgeable in Torah matters.
ReplyDelete2] A person having made a mistake in an unrelated matter does not create a ריעותא in any of the preexisting Gittin that he previously arranged.
However, I posited earlier: "Of course, moving forward, this story puts a question mark on the sense
of judgment regarding any psak/pronouncement which may come from the
camp of people who permit an "eishes ish" to remarry without a Get".
Your first point made me chuckle. Halevai. I suggest you go have a talk with r nosson kaminetzky. Or just take a walk down meah shearim and read the walls.
ReplyDeleteAa for your second point see my previous posts as well as the first part of this one. And i will stress again that practically speaking in inyanei yuchasin perceptions matter much more than facts.
@RaP you provide strong proof for the incredible lack of understanding of psak halacha - despite a yeshiva education. You clearly demonstrate the distortions and misunderstands resulting from the yeshiva system ignoring psak - and leaving it for the "weak" guys who can't handle Rabbi Aikva Eiger or Ktzos
ReplyDeleteTo pasken halacha it is not enough to identify that there are meikel views. The issue facing a posek is not only clarify the correct or best way of dealing with a question on a techinical level - but also the impact on the questioner.
You have probably aware that Rav Moshe sometimes says something is permitted but a baal nefesh should be machmir. I once asked Rabbi Freifeld about a widespread practice in the yeshiva world and he said - it is permitted for most but for you it is ossur.
The Introduction to Rav Ben Tzion Abba Shaul teshovos notes that psak is typically a stragegy of maximizing the likelihood of getting it right and not making a mistake. He notes the authority of Shulchan Aruch is that it was accepted by the Jewish People. Thus it doesn't have to be right. The Arizal's pronouncements have the authority of ruaach hakodesh. But the rest are like Rav Moshe Feinstein states strongly in his Introduction - they are sevoras that may or may not be true.
Thus you will find in Mishna Berura statements that this is the halacha but it is best to do X in order to be consistent with the other views on the subject.
Bottom line - your glib statement - there is the Chelkas Yaakov and he was a great man - would make any posek cringe. As my rebbe told me - even the Mishna Berura is not automatically halacha - even though he was a great tzadik - UNLESS YOU ACCEPT EVERYTHING THAT HE SAYS AS THE FINAL HALACHA.
Your previous sneering reply when I said Rav Moshe disagrees with you and spends much effort clarify the matter "well his view on times for air conditioners was accepted" show gross ignorance of the nature of psak. You clearly have the view of an ignorant person who says "It is enought that it is permitted by some great rabbi". Halacha is not bimodal - Permitted or prohibited. It invovles a complex understanding of Chazal Rishonim and Achronim - together with a knowledge of metzius and what is best for the person asking the question.
Your frequent slur that anyone who says not to rely on a minority opinion is fanatic - would surely cause great embarrassement to those rabbis who thought they were teaching you how to be a good Jew.
Bottom line: You don't understand the nature of halacha and psak. Instead of "paskening" on these unimportant issues for yourself based on what you saw in the Jewish Press or what you neighbor's wife does - ask a posek. Try starting with Rav Feivel or Rav Dovid Cohen. Open the conversation by saying. "It is obvious that there is no need to tovel electric appliances but some fanatic said I should discuss it with you"
The poshut pshat of why to keep a psak secret along with your name, min HaTorah minayin? Shene'emar, "Uvikholom al techad as kvodi". That is to say, to totally disassociate yourself from their deeds as well as your name. And for good reason.
ReplyDelete@RaP - the bottom line is if you ask the poske that you go to for your important questions - whether electiric appliances should be toveled he will say of course. The rest of what you bring up really is not relevant. I am talking about within the halachic authority that you use - not me or a Chabadnik but you. I am simply saying you are ignoring the rules of operation in your own world. It has nothing to do with preaching to the choir etc. You are ignoring the halachic views on issues which you view as unimportant or fanatic or someone living on an unrealistic madraga etc etc. None of the above is true - the yeshiva system does not give you - as well as many others - a proper appreciate for halacha and psak.
ReplyDeleteBecause you are ignorant of the dynamics of psak you are reinterpreting genuine issues into ones of pscyhology or religious fanaticism. You know neither the facts of the Epstein case that were used for the heter nor do you know the reason for the heter and therefore you not in a position to provide your daas baale Bayis in the matter. What you have written so far on the matter is simply wrong!
Since you are ignorant of what is going on - but only have a very fertile imagination we have a case of garbage in - garbage out. It is not a personal vendetta of my brother and myself
Please don't bring in the kitchen sink as to what you think this is about - because you have not the foggiest idea - you don't seem to have even read the information I have provided. Thus why waste your time with reality when you can put in 2 teaspoons of dirt and generate 5 tons of nonsense.
Bottom line - your quick mind which generalizes at the drop of a hat is totally off base with your understanding of what is going on -not just with toasters and poskim but with the whole Tamar Epstein case.
Why is everyone who disagrees with you always a kannoi or some other childish name. Grow up. If you have something of substance to share please do so otherwise please dont burden us through reading your 9 pg long overly repetative comments.
ReplyDelete"if an appliance is Mechubar LeKarka it does not need to be Toiveled, just the removable parts, but the part that houses the motor"
ReplyDeleteThat is what we call a good old tarti disasri.
And rav moshe did not invent kiddushei taus. You have clearly never even learnt the mishnah in maseches yevamos.
ReplyDeleteAll the yeshivish/chareidi people i know absolutely tovel their electronics unless they have one of the other heterim besides for mechubar likarka. You seem to have an elementary problem with following logic- the fact that some people do not tovel electronics in no way supports you mechubar likarka idea. This is so obvious it should not have to be said.
ReplyDeletedo they toievel their iphone, since it is not mechubar l'karka except when charging!
ReplyDeleteIt depends very much on where you stand. When the Mishna says "Aseh l'kha Rav", it brings in an element of choice.
ReplyDeleteWithout naming names, once can look at the halachic reasoning of different poskim, and at one end of the spectrum, each link in the chain will follow the most strict interpretation possible, whilst at the other end, they will find the most lenient. In the middle is where the problem lies - since Modern O and modernized Hareidi poskim will have a mix of lenience and strictness. So the far right will then attack the MO, but since that game is already over, they can turn their attention to the Modernize Hareidi (which RaP appears to identify with).
Now there are humras everywhere, but about different things, hence DL are more machmir on length of women's skirts than the Litvishe world. But less so on other things.
There is heter mechira and heter iska, which are both loopholes, as is mechirat chametz. RMF's lenience on non chalav Yisrael is virtualyl non existent in the chareidi world, but the London BD permits it. We have an old joke in the UK that you can eat a milk chocolate bar on the train from London to Manchester, but should finish it before you reach manchester, since the BD there goes by Chalav Yisrael.
"He notes the authority of Shulchan Aruch is that it was accepted by the Jewish People."
ReplyDeleteActually it wasn't, and was criticised by some Gedolei Torah such as the Maharal. It became accepted over time, but some isolated communities, eg the Teimanim, and some Persians did not fully accept it.
I am not ch'v attacking the SA, but trying to clarify the process of halachic acceptance. I belive there is a similar idea on the Talmud Bavli, ie that since it was accepted by Klal Yisroel, that is how its authority was derived. I am also interested in what happens when either the majority do not accept something or that the majority changes and rejects something?
@Eddie - the fact that it wasn't initially accepted but eventually became accepted is still described as having authority because it was accepted by the Jewish people. The fact that there were some isolated communities that didn't accept it - does not change the accuracy of his statement.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of acceptance was proposed by Rav Yosef Karo himself in his commentary Kesef Mishna
Don't know why you quote the kesef mishneh (I assume you mean the one in hilchos mamrim) when the rambam himself says this much clearer and earlier in his hakdama to mishneh torah.
ReplyDelete