Thursday, September 17, 2015

A Guide for Avreichim to the Halachos of Tznius Based on a shiur by Hagaon Rav Gershon Meltzer shlita

 Update: Added interview with Rav Eliashiv which doesn't fit exactly in what is being claimed in his name.







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Someone recently showed me a pamphlet on tznius with the haskoma of Rav Berkowitz (below) and others including Rav Chaim Kanievsky and Rav Ganz. The organization claims that they have the same authority as Chazal in their psakim dealing with tznius and that they must be accepted as authoritative (I assume that means in Israel by the yeshiva community). When I get a copy I hope to publish the whole thing.

שאלה שנשאלה על ידי למרן ר' חיים קנייבסקי שליט"א בכ"ז ניסן תשע"ה

וזה לשון השאלה: תקנות ב"ד משמר התורה שהוקם ע"י הגרי"ש אלישיב והגר"ש ווזנר לפסוק הלכות ולתקן תקנות בדיני צניעות ולבוש הנשים והגרי"ש אמר שזה בתוקף דת יהודית האם זה מחייב כמנהג המקום גם את בני חו"ל הגרים או נמצאים 
בארץ ישראל  

תשובת מרן: כן, מחייב



From the pamphlet:


Examples of Das Yehudis. -------------------------------------------------------------

There are three types of halachos that are included in the category of Das Yehudis: 

I. Prohibitions Enacted by Chazal, such as the prohibition for a woman to uncover theier arms above the elbow. 

2. Local Custom: The accepted rulmg of all Poskim is that a person is halachically bound to follow the strmgencies of the place where he lives.7 Hence, it is considered a violation of Das Yehudis for a woman to dress in a fashion that is considered immodest in her locale, even if she comes from a place where the prevailing standards of tznius were more lax. For example, if a woman grew up in a community in America where certain forms of dress were acceptable, and she now lives in Yerushalayim, she must abide by the more stringent minhagim of Yerushalayim. 

3. Halachos Enacted by a Beis Din or Local Leaders: The Chochmas Adam[1] rules that the shivah tuvei ha'ir in any community have the power of a beis din, even if they are simply ordinary people dedicated to benefiting the public, and not great Torah scholars, and they may enact binding halachic guidelines for the benefit of society. Just as the directives of the Anshei Knesses HaGedolah and other Torah sages throughout the generations have the status of halachah, every individual must follow the dictates of the community in which he lives, unless a rule is enacted that the majority of the public cannot handle.[2] In Eretz Yisrael, Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv and Rav Shmuel Wosner, zichronam livrachah, created the Mishmar HaTorah, a group of rabbanim who are responsible for formulating guidelines on matters of tznius, and the decisions of this entity have this binding status.[emphasis added] Baruch Hashem the Mishmar HaTorah’s guidelines have become increasingly accepted by the public. In light of the above, it should be clear that every garment or sheitel must fit into all the guidelines associated with Das Yehudis in order for it to be worn.


[1] Chochmas Adam (Klaal 102 Sif 1)

[2] The rulings of such leaders on issues of tznius therefore have the same force as the rulings of Chazal and must be followed.

17 comments:

  1. Via a logic which I admit is entirely opaque to me, the pamphlet argues that by fact of having been created by Rav Elyashiv and Rav Wosner, the Mishmar HaTorah acquires the status of shivah tuvei ha'ir.

    Since the pamphlet itself defines shivah tuvei ha'ir as “not great Torah scholars” it stands to reason that the same applies to the Mishmar HaTorah.

    ReplyDelete
  2. As long as she's staying within the range of what's acceptable among many Yerushalayim dati'ot, is she OK?
    Or, do we say she is violating Da'as Yehudis by not accepting the standard of those who are more "stringent'?
    What's the critical mass needed for the percentage of women dressing a certain way for them to begin to count as being within the standard of "accepted"?

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  3. Did I miss the election where it was decided that two Gedolim from the Chareidi community were now the authoritative poskim for all Orthodox commuities, even the non-Chareidi ones?

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  4. Pardon me, but this is off the wall. There is no such thing as minhag hamakom in a place where there are shomrei Torah who have varying customs. The only places that may have minhag hamakon today are places like New Square and the like (and maybe Gateshead).
    Also, the idea that the Mishmar HaTorah chevra have the authority to institute binding takanos on anyone is laughable. This is all just another example of ill-advised overreach on the part of Charaeidi rabbonim, I have no doubt that this will go nowhere.

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  5. The Ashkenaz community is considered one unit. The Sephardic community is also considered one unit, seperate community from the Ashkenazic. But the so-called non-chareidi Ashkenazis in Eretz Yisroel are not a separate community from the so-called chareidi Ashkenazis.

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  6. The pamphlet is addressing the communities who follow Rav Elyashev and Rav Wosner. This pamphlet isn't addressing, nor was it distributed, in chiloni or daati communities.

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  7. RDE says it only applies to the israeli yeshivish community (in the parentheses). Not to ger, not to meah shearim, not to merkaz haRav.

    As for ketubah, that depends on the particular community, not for walking in the street.

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  8. It is a very risky strategy to claim that today a group has the same authority as Chazal. Does the Litvish doctrine of Daas Torah make such a claim?
    Also, a gezeira is only valid if accepted by the majority of Klal Yisroel. That includes those who are not specifically Hareidi or even practicing orthodox. Thus, it would be impossible to produce a Gezeira or takkana today for this precise reason alone, regardless of authority.

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  9. @Eddie - I think a stronger point is that this group is basing its authority on Rav Eliashiv - while Rav Eliashiv made no such claims.

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  10. Why did you post Rabbi Berkowitz' approbation?


    He only commented about the clarity in explaining modesty, as well as the requirement thereof. He does not discuss "binding rules" and the ability to administer them.


    Did you ask Rabbi Meltzer for an explanation?

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  11. "(which would be laughable considering that their "customs" are to be mechallel shabbos and the like)."....a dis-analogy which undermines the analogy you are trying to make.

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  12. Are you suggesting that there is no disagreement among Ashkenazi poskim? Do the followers of minhagei ha'gra have the same customs as the rest of ashkenazim? Do chasidim follow the same customs? Should all ashkenazim should be held to the standard of the Gerrer Rebbe when it comes to intimacy.

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  13. a while back, a Gemara was cited on this blog, which is learned as reading: "If you want your psak to gain acceptance, cite it in the name of a great authority". As far as i recall, there was no requirement for it to actually have been stated by that Great authority.

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  14. @Eddie the gemora was not saying that you should claim to have the halachic status of Chazal in order for people to pay attention.

    While the statement in Pesachim is in fact brought down by the Magen Avraham - the Mishna Berura when citing the long list of thing in this Magen Avraham deletes mention of claiming that a great authority said such a thing.

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  15. I wholeheartedly agree with you. I was alluding to their claim that they have backing from Rav Elyashiv ztl.

    And would any Gadol have said that some committee has the status of Chazal? It is highly unlikely.

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  16. The question to Rav Chaim misrepresents what Rav Elyashiv said, so Rav Chaim's and Rav Meltzer's psakim must be placed within that light. Presumably, neither of them has seen the video evidence that shows Rav Elyashiv's being manipulated into this answer.

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  17. After watching three minutes of the video, I had enough. R' Elyashiv mumbles something, and the shouting guy takes it as agreement. What nonsense.

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