Converting to Judaism about a year ago, a transgender man in
Washington asked his rabbi a pointed question about the last step in the
process, which calls for dunking naked in a ritual bath.
Could he locate a transgender man to serve as the required witness for this immersion?[...]
The mikvah — most commonly used by traditional Jewish women
to mark the end of their menstrual periods — is where a transgender
person may first discover how a Jewish community treats its transgender
members. [...]
Each mikvah witness must be a supportive person, said Berman —
someone who “isn’t going to flip out when they see a body that might
look different from what they would have expected.”
What a joke. People masquerading as of the opposite sex, being aided by people masquerading as rabbis, converting to a religion masquerading as Judaism.
ReplyDeleteMay Hashem protect us from these freaks. Why would they go through the mockery of a giyur when they violate issurei deoraisa of mishkav zochor and derabbonons of noshim hamisolilos?
ReplyDeleteI think you may be making two errors here. One is conflating the issues of transgender people and homosexuality, and the other is assuming that all people with same-sex attraction act on it and violate issurim, whether deoraysa or derabbanan. While you may not know any people of either of these categories, calling people who have severe problems with their gender identity "freaks" is both intolerant and ignorant. While it is something that I do not relate to or understand very well, I have heard enough interviews with trans people (it only takes a couple) to know that their pain and confusion is very real. I am not commenting on the validity of the geirus discussed in the article, which does not seem to be an Orthodox geirus in any event, but these people should be treated with compassion, not scorn.
ReplyDeleteThe vast majority of people with these issues probably got involved because of sexual issues. Even without that, physically trying to change one's sex would probably be over on lo silbash or lo yihyeh kli gever. Additionally, if a male undergoes the gross deformity of a so called sex change operation, he would be over on the issur of castration. In no way does the operation change the person's chromosomes or affect any real change.
ReplyDeleteA very small minority of these people may have the problems that you are concerned about but the vast majority are part of the overall move to sexual perversion.
Derech Erets Plishtim, asher misham yotsu Plishtim, baderech lo derech,
ReplyDeletekedarka velo kedarka...
When a Male mutilates himself to emulate a Female, the chromosomes don't
change just like if one tootsie's his clothing. Same goes for using lipstick and
putting on nail polish, still and all, everything else remains equal. Gender is
not in the eyes of the beholder, it is not only skin deep, but penetrates all
the way to the bones. After destroying his tzelem Elokim that was declared by
the malach hamemune al hahirayon, he was mashchis and mevatel a mitzvah hatluya
beguf, ki hishchis kol bosor, therefore not eligible for giyur of which is a
precondition to become a Ger. That is to say, no hatofas dam bris, priah,
while remaining forever a orel ben neichor ve'eino ben bris. Such a TransG was
also mevatel mitzvat Pru urvu, on top of lo yavo... ukris shofcho bikhal Hashem.
That is like burning all the bridges before he even gets there. You don't become
a woman by disarming yourself from the klei zayin, period!
On the flip side of the coin, when a woman tries to emulate a man, lo yihye
kli gever al isho and should not don juan weaponry, ki derech gever bamilchama.
I don't claim to have much expertise in the transplant field for TransG's or
transferring Transfats, or whether such transfer operations exchange are done
simultaneously in pairs for M to F/F to M to fulfill each others "chasser
voyesser". (Trans) whatever each needs but is missing e.g. shnayin mikol yavou
elecho lehachyos. Lo bechinam does it state, that koshe gerim leyisroel
kesapachas. It is baffling how a TransG should be able to perform a Giyur,
while his own status is in Question whether he/she is altogether Jewish. As far
as the Bracha is concerned, how would you say, veyikore joe/shmo
beyisrael Sarah ben Avraham, or Avraham bas Sarah. This only brings
andrelemusya to the world. Same applies to tumtum veandroginus, they must bring
their sifrei yochsin to verify what they are, were, and wannabe. Else, no dice.
Imagine a beth din separate for degenerates/M to F/F to M/ Tumtum/ Vaendroginus/
ulekol tsarua vekol zav. Maybe like in Seattle, Philadelphia, and West
Hollywood a unisex beth din, and that would absolve the peeping Rabbi of
Washington or the steaming Rabbi in the Sauna..
Let the real He/She stand up.
"therefore not eligible for giyur of which is a precondition to become a Ger. That is to say, no hatofas dam bris, priah,
ReplyDeletewhile remaining forever a orel ben neichor ve'eino ben bris"
Nope - see Yore Deah (268:1):
ואם נכרת הגיד אין מילתו מעכבת מלהתגייר וסגי ליה בטבילה
But don't forget, there is a world of a difference between soris cheimo, to sirus bezodon, kein hadovor hahi. Nichras means by accident, and this guy was mevatel a mitzvah like cutting of a nega bemokom miloh or made a shvuoh to eat this bread and threw it into the ocean instead. Meuves lo yuchal letaken.
ReplyDeleteWhat is the basis for your statistical assertion that "the vast majority of people with these issues probably got involved because of sexual issues" and that "a very small minority of these people may have the problems that you are concerned about"? Please back up your claim.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you missed the article, but the subject is trans gentiles who want to convert. Saying that they were mevatel this mitzvah or that one is a non-sequitur. I am not aware of any Beis Din that will refuse to accept a convert because they transgressed one of the Noahide mitzvos in the past, certainly not for transgressing a mitzvah given to Jews.
ReplyDeletePru Urvu was given to Bnei Noach and all humanity, as well as issur sirus, animal kingdom inclusive. No matter his status, he is in violation of past, present and future forever without remedy. This is the very foundation of all Humanity and basic Law for Mankind all across the board. Not even R' Riskin's liberal Bet Din will accept such, especially if it has been committed for the sake of pleasure and convenience of which is a violation in and of itself e.g. Mishkav zochor and Kemaasei Erets Mitsrayim. Don't forget mahapechat Sdom v'Amorah.
ReplyDeleteKamoshchei boniso mechelba.
"because they transgressed one of the Noahide mitzvos in the past" Your comments reek of mindless PC doubletalk and PC propaganda. We are not talking about the past here. A "transgender" is one who not only continues to violate Torah precepts that prohibit dressing like a person of the opposite gender, but they are publicly proud of their abominable behavior and demand acceptance of it by the public.
ReplyDeleteOne cannot change their gender according to present scientific practices, it is PC pseudo-scientific fantasy.
"pain and confusion is very real" If one has SSA and is sincerely trying to avoid acting on it, and is not publicly proud of it and demanding acceptance, then he/she deserves some sympathy and support.
ReplyDeleteThose who pretend to have allegedly switched their gender (its really a a huge fraud), and are proud of their abominations, and are demanding acceptance of their perversions, should be banned and condemned by the Torah observant communities. Notwithstanding the PC apologists like yourself who attempt to brainwash
us into accepting all the latest PC abominations of liberal Western
"culture".
Their alleged "pain and confusion" is a result of their own perverse behavior. Do we have to now understand the "pain and confusion" of child molesters, rapists, and those who desire sex with animals?
How do you know otherwise? Human beings are strongly wired for a certain sexual orientation. It's obviously a mutation or an aberration of thought to think otherwise; There is tremendous licentious pressure to blur the boundaries. Why would one assume otherwise?
ReplyDeleteWhat's your proof that this is not the case?
I made no statistical assertion, you did. I do not claim to know what % of trans people are like this or like that. Therefore, you must prove the accuracy of what you said.
ReplyDeleteWell, I hope none of you loved ones ever have gender identity issues.
ReplyDeleteNot that homosexuality and transgender are the same, but perhaps read the op-ed buy Oliver Sacks from the New York Times a few days ago. He is dying of cancer and reflecting back on his life.. he grew up in a frum family, but was turned of from Judaism when family members called him "an abomination" when they found out he has SSA, as you call it (this is without him having acted on it). He recently spent a Shabbos with frum relatives who accepted him with love, and he wistfully considers what his life would have been like had his family reacted in the that way many decades ago.
Really? Do you think there are Batei Dinim that will reject prospective converts because they have in the past transgressed a prohibition?
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, by writing "has been committed for the sake of pleasure and convenience" you are assessing the motivations of people whom you have never met. On what basis are you ascribing this motivation to them?
There is a world of difference in regard to עונשים, but no difference at all in regard to the ability to convert.
ReplyDelete@ Also to Yehoshua
ReplyDeleteb'Inyan Schar veonesh
Kamo tshuvos bedovor
1) Onesh is a deterrent so as not to be worthwhile to repeat an offense
e.g. choteh veniskar / kaasher yeyasser ish es bno. A TG can never repeat, Onesh
cannot help in this sense.
2) At the same time it is lemaan yishmeun veyerou velo yezidun od. That can
happen if a TG would be refused by Bet Din as an Onesh of retribution and REFUSE
to have him join klall Yisroel.
3) Onesh is also a Kapparah when the person is eligible to be mechupar. A
TG is bibchinat herim yodo upagam betsurat Tselem Elokim bezadon letaavas nafsho
that is irreversible, while commiting many la'avim at the same time either as a
Ben Noach, and many others added should he be accepted for Giyur. If he is
lucky, maybe in the after life if not caught up in the kaf hakela, -thei misoso
kaporoso-, vein li esek benistarot.
a) mevatel mitsvat Pru Urvu, this was given to all of Humanity just the
same
b) mevatel lo letohu broah, elo lasheves yetsoroh,
c) sirus is a lo sa'asse, with chisaron kis nonetheless
d) krus shofhcho that is not raui lavo bikhal hashem,
e) mumer leteavon,
f) lo sihye kadosh (as in Kedeisho)
g) mishkav zachar
h) maaseh eretz mitsrayim
4) If one says Echto veoshiv, ein maspikin beyado laasos tshuva, TG is
kekelev hashov el kio.
5) TransG' is maschis and a mushchat, in the sense of hischis kol
bossor, that is in essence the purpose of such an TG operation.
6) Coming with all this baggage, it would be a Tovel v'sherets beyodo, even
elef ta'amim cannot metaher him.
7) How is this any different when someone wants to mekabel Geirus with an
exception that he wants to continue to eat Chazir, would you accept him?
Anshei sdom v'Amorah roim vachtoim l'Hashem, even Lot refused to let them
in his house.
TG is all of the above.
Why anyone in their right mind would want to walk into a religion where he
is considered to be in violation from ground zero? Having said all this, his
credentials for Geirus are not up to snuff, in regard to the ability to convert,
NO Bet Din Tsedek will ever accept him!
@yehoshua:
All of the above applies to "Yehoshua" as well, with an additional few for
topping. A TG is a walking killelat Elokim talui sheavar olov haklach. His
transgression is be'ayin, just like Humpty Dumpty or an orlah that cannot be put
back in place.
1) He destroyed his family jewels of Humankind for the past, present and
future, therefore, kol yomov bechet.
2) To figure out motivation, you don't necessarily have to meet the
person as you can see in Melachim alef 15 - 14 -, vayichros assa es miflatstah
veyisrof benachal kidron. See meforshim of medroshas chaz"al. Translation in
cleansing language- e.g. if like a glove fit, you mustn't acquit.
Vead mossay ato oseh baalei mumin, Yisroel ?
What language are u chanting?
ReplyDeleteEr, okay.
ReplyDeleteWell said!!
ReplyDelete1: If you are going to post in Hebrew, post in Hebrew. I find it very difficult to get through your stream-of-conscious transliterated paragraphs.
ReplyDelete2: Not all TG people undergo genital reconstructive surgery.
I was shocked to learn that there were great poiskim from previous doiros who held that sex changes were actually valid to change the halachic sex of a person.The name escape me but they were great names- pillars of klal yisroel.
ReplyDeleteYou are screaming at people but I believe you are mistaken. First, not all transgenders fall into the category tou suggest. Second, great poiskim held that sex changes may be halachically valid.
ReplyDeleteVast majority means well over 50%. You pulled that out of your bottom. I believe the facts are probably the opposite way around. However, I will make no assertions because I don't know. What I do know is that Bruce Jenner says that he always felt like a woman. He didnt say that he wanted to have relations with a man. I think that Bruce is strange but I take him by his word.
ReplyDeleteI am guessing you are a young yeshiva guy who believes that he is a scholar. You have a lot ri learn in both Toirah and worldly issues. Don't spew venom, creating a public chillul Hashem. Learn the halacha and the facts before lambasting people.
I think you meant to direct your comment to Facts of Life, not to me.
ReplyDelete@truth sayer - the only posek who mentions such is the Tzitz Eliezer and it is not widely accepted view. It is also not clear what he actually said.
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2015/06/marriage-annuled-after-groom-turns-out.html
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/01/tzitz-eliezar-sex-change-by-surgery.html
According to what it says in the first post, it seems that he would rule that the person loses their previous gender status and has the halakha of an androgynous. Accordingly, I would assume that all of the claims concerning the issue of lo silbash may fall away. The Minchas Chinuch is unsure how these halakhos would apply to an androgynous. [He even suggest that they may wera neither male not female clothing. I am not sure what options that would leave them].
ReplyDelete"great poiskim"? OK, now I'm "screaming" at you. As DT explained above, ONE poisek MAY have held by halachically valid sex changes, but that poisek does not give a heter for sex change operations.
ReplyDeleteJews who mutilate themselves and wear clothes of the opposite gender in violation of Torah law do not deserve PC victimhood status.
Sex change operations are another perverted farce and another victimization cause being foisted on us by the PC crowd. It is not scientifically possible to change one's gender.
"The DNA in the human Y chromosome is composed of about 59 million base pairs.[2] The Y chromosome is passed only from father to son"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome#Human_Y_chromosome
in any case, the psak is not (as far as I recall) giving permission l'chatchilla, but describing what occurs afterwards. is that correct?
ReplyDeleteYou are correct, but nobody asserted that it is muttar.
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, any ben Torah is able to distinguish between Torah and tfilah. Only a Ger or TransGer that the jargon is foreign to him/her/both might have difficulties to comprehend. My apologies, no offense.
ReplyDeleteMy response was only to those TG's that do undergo surgery, and those should not have any problems dunking. My apologies, Rashi and many others constantly utilize some foreign langauge to clarify issues. Indeed, Lashon HaKodesh should not be foreign to you, and it is the most beautiful compact language ever known. As for corrective verbal usage, it is rather -undergo deconstructive surgery.
ReplyDeleteEm, TY
ReplyDeleteThose thinking they were born in the wrong body is strictly a psychological aberration, no different than anyone obsessed that they are Moshiach etc.
ReplyDeleteI believe R' Neventhall agreed because he said that chazal also must have defined gender by view of the outer anatomy. I know we dont paskin like this but I take issue with writers who insulted the view of brilliant gedoilim. Dor Tapuchos speaks about how to treat these people. There is much argument in this area.
ReplyDeleteWith the complex issues and difficulties involved in a transgender being Shomer Totah and Mitzvos, why would any Beis Din perform such a giyur?
ReplyDeleteSome psychologists agree with you but the majority do not.
ReplyDeleteI like that you actually took the time to quote chazal. Too many people are shooting from the hip and acting as if they are an authority.
ReplyDeleteThank you!
The halacha is that they can convert even though they mutilated themselves previously. All agree that once they converted, halacha forbids the surgery.
ReplyDeleteI was confused about the whole thing you are bringing up regarding ojnesh. Are you saying that they will be punished for previous indiscretions? We treat a convert like a newborn child. I believe that they dont keep their oinshim.
If you are talking about all the new problems they walk into as a transgender Jew, they won't be punished for following the advice of the orthodox rabbanim who assisted them through geirus kihalachah.
I don't think any Beis Din would. The "Beis Din" in the article is not an Orthodox one.
ReplyDeleteMy boich answer:
ReplyDeleteBecause the halacha is that he or she should be accepted.
That's the way our religion works. We follow halacha even though it makes us uncomfotable sometimes.
But honestly, I think you are raising a good question. There is so much controversy about the topic. Where would he/she sit in shul? What mitzvos will he/she be obligated to perform. So I would rephrase your question and ask why chazal allowed such geirus. Once it has been permitted, I wouldn't ask a question about today's batei dinim which are acting based on precadent of codified halacha.
The issue of whether such a mindset is legitimate or an aberration is not a psychological one, and psychologists have no more authority on this question than do sanitation workers.
ReplyDeleteI never said that poiskim allowed it. I said that held it was valid (after the fact.) The TE's case was about a lchatchiladike action under a strange circumstance. I believe the Tzitz Eliezer and R' Neventhall said it was valid once done. The TE paskined in a case where the person had nondescended beitzim which means that the person was I assume chromosomally a man that the parents could remove the beitzim surgically and treat her as a woman.
ReplyDelete@ truth sayer, I don't think they have a prayer,
ReplyDeleteat least not by an Orthodox Bet Din Tsedek, read on
There is punishment for a Ben Noach, Ben Noach sheshovas chayav missa, and
there is no life after afterlife as a tinok shenolad. See Yisro, his motives
were noble, he came to be meGayer for all the right reasons, recognized the
gadlus haBore and to be Mekabel the Torah, still and all he went back to his
previous background. That is why it states, koshe Gerim leyisroel kesapachas,
such an about face is a big shande for Yahadut and Klall Yisrael. The protocol
for Geirus is the task of the Bet Din Tsedek to root out the potential Sapachas
whether they are Gerei Emes hein or Gerei Arayos hein. Therefore, it is
incumbent initially to be doche a potential convert repeatedly, tell them the
drawbacks about joining Klall Yisrael, how we are the least of all Nations and
being pursued at all times, and how he would be better off to remain a gentile
keeping only the Sheva Mitsvot Bnei noach and still get Olam haBa. Ruth insisted
in spite all that, vathi mitametset lavo, therefore she prevailed. When you have
someone that violated even from the Sheva Mitsvot Bnei Noach, and possibly
eliminated all the Mitsvot esse shehazman grama, having potentially a weapon of
mass destruction, ready, willing and able, what are the chances that he is an
honest candidate for a Ger Tsedek, to have and to hold 613? To his detriment, it
leans more towards an unstable element. It is written in the Fifth Shulchan
Aruch all the unwritten rules, and those that can master them, more power to
them. I am also not sure why they would want preferential treatment to be
witnessed by a Transgender man, while the women don't get such, let alone that
the TransG man deconstructed his manhood and his status is undetermined to
qualify for Dunkins.
This issue is rather a Halachic determination as seen in the eyes
of the beholder, and not "mind" over matter, nor in the eyes of the carrier, not
for the weak of heart nor Psychologists. Please understand, that chaz"al when
viewing the outer Anatomy is when it happens bidei Shamyim, e.g. Tumtum
veAndroiginus, but when someone takes their matter in their own hands,
deconstruct, and mutilate themselves is like when kids play doctor, nothing
changed, everything remains the same, except his manhood looking like a
mangled mengele experiment. Outside of that, there remains nothing much to
argue. I do not claim to be an authority, nor shoot from the hip, but a straight
shooter. As for the undescended beitzim, that is a whole different ball game.
Just a little einshpritz of male hormones, and it will drop like an atom bomb.
No need to make him a baal mum with a chisaron kis.
@ Yehoshua As for Aparrel, the most suitable suit that might suit
them, is like the teletubbies.
Although I much sympathize with people carrying such a heavy burden and
confusion trying to find themselves genderwise and religiouswise, they don't
seem to be from the stable element qualified for Geirus into such a difficult
yoke of Torah uMitsvot.
How would the very "first" TransG locate another TransG for a dunking witness? Unless, you have a dedicated transG nonGer bull breeder flown around from town to town all over the Country when a candidate in such need arises. .
ReplyDeletePsychosis is the inability to perceive reality as it is. Someone who is born as a member of one sex and is genetically a member of that sex, yet identifies as a member of the opposite sex is suffering from a psychosis.
ReplyDeleteRegarding psychologists, there 'Bible' is a book called the DSM. Everyone who has ever worked on the DSM has stated that the book is useless.
In the past, homosexuality was categorized as a mental illness. Due to changing social mores, it was removed from the DMS 2 editions ago. Could you imagine an MD claiming that polio is no longer a disease? Really!
It's simply amazing how otherwise intelligent Jews can eagerly swallow all the non-scientific PC nonsense and perversions of Western "civilization".
ReplyDelete"how a Jewish community treats its transgender
members" -
Unless one can find a way to alter the chromosomes in EVERY cell in their body, then one is born with a certain gender, and remains with that gender until their dying day, and it is not possible scientifically to become a "transgender".
The phrase above should be corrected:
"how a Jewish community treats its psychotic members who delude themselves into believing they can change their gender by mutilating themselves and wearing clothes of the opposite gender, in complete violation of Torah law."
"The DNA in the human Y
chromosome is composed of about 59 million base pairs.[2] The Y
chromosome is passed only from father to son"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_chromosome#Human_Y_chromosome
Don't these tumtum vendroginus have a definite physical functionality of a specific gender by birth? BTW, Transgender's inner plumbings do not change, and it is more like Purim, where only the outside appearance is altered.
ReplyDeleteEivar hameduldal is not considered mechubar, he might have a problem with chatsitsa, I don't understand what you are "erring" about. Here is something for you to ponder. If a ben noach shechayvu misa e.g. a murderer etc. and requests for Giyur, do you think he can get away with murder Scott free?
ReplyDeleteSee Sanhedrin 71b
ReplyDeleteA ben noach that violated from the seven mitsvot is chayev misa, and they indeed are chayev beonshin besayef/bechenek. It must be that he did not disclose his violation, how else did he survive. It seems that it is similar to the givonim, after the facts. Lekatchila, it cannot happen.
ReplyDeleteNope again - see Tos. Avoda Zara 26b s.v. ולא מורידין.
ReplyDelete'Stam' kenaani is not equivalent to hadoes baal (mum) kemeah eidim damya vegufo me'id olov. Deim lo kein, "when" is ever shayach onshin e.g. chenek/sayif for ben noach sheshovas or ovar bevaday al sheva mitsvot bnei noach ? Covered it well, ve'ein meishivin oleha.
ReplyDeleteThere is no Chiyuv to give an Onesh to a Goy if it is financially beneficial to keep him alive - and Kal VaChomer if he wants to become a Ger, and become Patur from the Onesh that way.
ReplyDeleteBesides which, nobody says that a Goy who is not מקיים פרו ורבו is חייב מיתה.
Although I am unfamiliar with the halachic concerns here, as a giuress I am very familiar with the way Botei Din operate with regards to the conversion process.
ReplyDeleteOne of the main themes running through the many formal and informal meetings I had with rabbanim and dayanim over the approximately five-year geirus process (at the London Beis Din) was the emphasis that a ger should be an emotionally-balanced, happy person, who is content with himself.
It was stressed to me many times that Judaism has no obligation to bring into the community anyone at all, let alone a person with significant personal problems. In addition, the ability of a person who is not well-balanced being able to sustain a lifestyle of Torah and mitzvos to a reasonably high level is obviously greatly reduced. Converting such a person is essentially creating a halachic problem, which the Beis Din is not going to do.
Before being accepted as a candidate for conversion (i.e. before a Beis Din decides to register a candidate for the process and assign supervising rabbanim and teachers), one must first live within a frum community, get to know people, and demonstrate a willingness and ability to operate there. Ordinary members of the community write letters of recommendation to the Beis Din, based on their social interactions with the would-be candidate (such as at Shabbos Seudas to which they have been invited; interactions in the workplace, etc.) in order to assist rabbanim in deciding if the person should be invited to the Beis Din for initial discussion.
I don't want to sound judgmental about transgender people - or anyone else for that matter - but even getting to that stage would probably be very hard. How would the community react to such a person? Would people - rabbanim or laymen- accept that the person was stable? isn't going through two fundamental life changes stretching credulity on that?
Part of the conversion process also involves living, for a good couple of years, with an Orthodox family. There, many halachic issues such as yichud arise. How this would be navigated from a transgender perspective I don't know, but this would be only one of the many halachic issues with which rabbanim of the transgender person would be confronted.
So I am wary of where and from whom this question about mikvah comes, because I find it hard to imagine things would have come anywhere near to that stage.
See Dvarim 20 : 10, 11 ... yihyu lecho lomas vavaducho (velo moridin)
ReplyDeleteapplies for kibbush only, Eretz Yisrael only, bizman haBayis while Shivim
sanhedrin yoshvim beAzoro only, and not for Washington etc.
See Mlachim 1: 15: 13, vayichros Assa es miflatstah...
See: Tosefta
Avodah Zarah 8.4 quoted in Talmud Sanhedrin 56a of the following:
7 Mitzvos Bnei Noach
The Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach according to the Talmud, were
given by Hashem to Noach as a binding set of laws for all mankind. Any non-Jew
who lives according to these laws is regarded as a Chasid Umos Ha'Olam and is
assured of a place in Olam Haba. The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the
Talmud (Tosefta Avodah Zarah 8.4 quoted in Talmud Sanhedrin 56a.)
...
3) Giluy Arayos - Prohibition of Sexual
Promiscuity: You shall not commit any of a series of sexual prohibitions, which
include adultery, incest, bestiality and male homosexuality.
The mutilation and deConstrution of a TransG is for obvious
reasons, non other than a mifletset lishmah, meyuad liKdeisho/Kodesh and in
violation of Mitsvat Bnei Noach piled up on top of violating mitsvat Pru Urvu,
lo letohu broah ela lashevet yetsarah that was given equally to all of Humanity
as well as any briah, even before Noach.
A TransGender while going to such extremes, 'ukreisah bein
shineho' is bevaday that he/she is oiver al mishkavh zachar/kemaaseh Erets
Mitsrayim and is
חייב מיתה
Coming in front of a Kosher Bet Din Tsedek, with such a weapon
of mass Destruction and deConstruction, weaponized, ready, willing and able as
in the past, present and future, no one in their right mind would accept such
for Geirus, kal vachomer uben bno shel kal vaChomer if he wants to become a Ger
and become Patur from the Onesh that way, of which is the epitome of Gerei
Arayos- Tartei Mashma ( Arayos with Alef/Ayin). Ein eitso v'ein tvuno neged
haShem. In adittion, not only would it be a Tovel veSherets beyodo, but
Sapachas, Gabachas, veKadachas, Ketsapichus b'mayim hameorrerim. Ve'Dal. Why don't you read the pearls of Wisdom from someone with
experience, such as Giyoress Tsedeka Sarah Tsiporah of the above.
Equipped with all that piles and piles
of baggage, a TransG has no prayer, at least not by a Bet Din Tsedek, let alone
being choosy for transG Dunking witnesses. As they say, beggars cannot be
choosy.
BTW, can you please give an example when is shayach a Ben Noach
leonshin?
This is getting a little tedious:
ReplyDelete(1) Tosfos is coming to explain the ברייתא of לא מורידין, which is not talking about שעת כיבוש מלחמה, so obviously they hold that the היתר of יהיו לך למס can be extended beyond the situation of מלחמה.
(1.5) Besides which, show me any source whatsoever which states that a Goy who is חייב מיתה cannot be מתגייר. Just one.
(2) You provide no evidence - and indeed, there is none - that a gentile who fails to be מקיים Pru UrVu is חייב מיתה. This is simply not true.
(3) Besides which, a Goy is not מצווה on פרו ורבו - see Sanhedrin 59b.
(4) I agree with you that if a gentile man wants to become a Ger and also wear women's clothing, then this creates a possible problem in the Geirus, as he is not being מקבל all the Mitzvos of the Torah.
(5) I don't know why you think transgender implies משכב זכור - surely this is to be examined on a case-to-case basis.
(6) I am not sure whether a penis-less man has an Issur to dress like a woman - if we say like Rashi that the Issur of cross-dressing is a הרחקה against mingling with the other sex for purposes of Znus, then it may well be that in this case, where Znus is impossible, the הרחקה would not apply. The same would hold for the איסור יחוד, and possibly other forms of קריבה. This is just a suggestion, וצריך עיון.
רמב"ם (מלכים י:ד): בן נח שבירך את השם, או שעבד ע"ז, או שבא על אשת חבירו, או שהרג חבירו, ונתגייר פטור, הרג בן ישראל או שבא על אשת ישראל ונתגייר חייב והורגין אותו על בן ישראל, וחונקין אותו על אשת ישראל שבעל שהרי נשתנה דינו.
ReplyDelete(1), (1.x, 1.n-1) and in that order.
ReplyDeleteואע״פ שסתם כנענים״) עובדי כוכבים ומזלות הס ועוברין על שבע מצות מכל מקום
אין מורידין לרבינהו בקרא להתירא °דכתי׳ והיה לך למס ועבדוך(דבריס כ<:
This heter to exchange his life for his labor is for סתם כנענים even after
Kibush, where 'to the victor belong the spoils', no relations to a vaday oiver
al mitsvos bnei noach. There was no Kibush milchemes reshus in Washington at
all.
A goy who is chayav misa sheovar al echad mimitsvot bnei noach e.g. arayos,
is a gavra debar ketila, kal vachomer if he was nidon besayif and is headless,
except of course for Zorba the greek! For all practical purposes, he is dead
meat and can never be considered born again ketinok shenolad.
A person that was mesaress himself and diminished the potential mitsvot of
pru urvu and lo letohu broah ela losheves yetsorah does not reflect too well as
one that is eager and willing to accept even more mitsvot . The reason it takes
time to practice and join Am Yisrael is, so that once he becomes chiyuv
bemitsvot, yehei shogur befiv and should be able to perform immediately, any and
all.
It is a davar pashut veyadua it speaks for itself, that when a TransG
deconstructs and reconstructs a 'nartik', is so that he should be able to
perform ponim el ponim, in addition to the existing ponim el achor as in the
original mishkav z', thereby, meshamesh bitrei anpin, ved"al - for not becoming
too graphic and lesaper bilashon nekiya.
A man that is a transG dressing like a woman, is for mingling and
attracting other zechorim of his kind, of which is Toeva, is equivalent whether
doing it for znus. Therefore, lo silbash is relevant for either one as
harchaka just the same, whether znus or Toeva. Issur yichud also applies just
the same.
I agree that it is becoming cumbersome and tedious. We have dunked in yam
haTalmud left and right indepth, and in need to ascend gasping for some air.
Whether we agree or agree to disagree, the common denominator is that the
chances for such a meatball to be accepted is practically nil. Too much baggage
without any credentials.
V'es vohav besufo,
Bo shabbos bo menucha, putting it to rest in peace.
Other than that, Have a Great Shabbos.
Are you bringing a proof for me, against me, or just citing a related Halacha?
ReplyDeleteYou too!
ReplyDeleteDid the Tzitz Eliezer have scientific insight?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/11833715/sex-change-women-hormone-treatment-men-brain-traits.html
At dawn of time, Hashem created Adam and Eve and called them male and female with different plumbing. These plumbings are designed internally and externally in a complex manner for purposes of reproduction. Just doing the outside cosmetics changes nothing, everything else remains the same. This is not rocket science.
ReplyDeletePlease specify the exact source to support your claim that chazal allowed such geirus.
ReplyDeleteEven it's (zes)kriat hashem name calling would cause such a stir. Foigel ben-or feigele bas-, Balak ben Tsipor lezachar, Tsipor haChayah for undetermined ben o bas, Tsiporah bas Yisro for nekeiva, Sarah bas Horon, Sar haSorisim. According to the Chochmat haShlomo 'Chidos fool proof test' for the Queen of Sheba in order to determine the gender in spite of cross dressing, is whether they are mashtin bakir, or yoshevet al hakelim. boduk umnussa.
ReplyDelete