This 2 part BBC program describes the history of belief in ritual or satanic child abuse and suggest various reasons why belief in the existence of these rings - is more important than finding evidence for them. In particular why this belief ends up causing not only panic and destruction to the community, instituions such as schools and places of worship and to the family structure - but it provides a harmful excuse for not believing children when real abuse happens.
Click this link to hear the program BBC
Just because it causes panic doesn't mean it isn't true. Let's not be naive as to what the world is capable of.
ReplyDelete@My Opinion - just because something is highly unlikely or clearly nonsense - doesn't mean the world isn't capable of it. According to your line of reasoning we have to be afraid of every possiblity all the time - because after all isn't ther a small but finite possiblity it is true? clearly you don't believe in past experience or scientific studies - because they only deal with once happened - in reality just because peanut butter has not caused massive genetic damage or a butterfly hitting an airplane has caused it to crash - but isn't it possible? You are right we should not be naive about what the world is capable of - we should be in a high paranoid state to make sure we are afraid of everything.
ReplyDeleteI know people who were victims of ritual abuse. Beyond that, there is a great deal of evidence that it really exists.
ReplyDelete@My Opinion - where is the great deal of evidence? - it seems to have been missed by the experts in abuse as well as law enforcement agencies
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by experts in abuse? The typical therapist doesn't even know about child abuse. There are true experts who know about it and write about it and law enforcement as well.
ReplyDeletehttps://ritualabuse.us/smart/neil-brick/
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ritual+abuse
Cult and Ritual Abuse: Narratives, Evidence, and Healing Approaches
http://www.amazon.com/Cult-Ritual-Abuse-Narratives-Approaches/dp/1440831483/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1438105682&sr=8-5&keywords=ritual+abuse&pebp=1438106142315&perid=1YWKFGW71NPKSJADHS2W
@My Opinion - your proof is nonsense. There are a lot of nuts who have organizations and publish books about topics that they don't know anything about.
ReplyDeleteI asked for proof not propaganda.
Furthermore what qualifications do you have to declare that, "The typical therapist doesn't know about child abuse?"
Serious question. Is there anything in the literature about unconscious acceptance of conspiracy theories?
ReplyDeleteYou have had a series of posts over time about ritual abuse; some of these posts contained links to videos and audio. These have convincingly supported your thesis that ritual abuse remains largely unproven. Yet, there are people who find this insulting, and comment to that effect here.
The following statement may take a bit of parsing. We are essentially being subjected to a conspiracy of people who claim to be victims of a conspiracy.
These people mad not be conscious they have accepted a conspiracy theory.
"Unconscious acceptance of a conspiracy" might be related to "mass hysteria", advertising techniques used in conjunction with uncritical thinking (the bandwagon effect), etc.
Or "unconscious acceptance of conspiracy" might just be one more opportunity for annoying people to find an outlet for being nasty and annoying. Kind of like mass bullying, just ganging up on people for the sake of having an outlet for frustration and violent tendencies. Not unlike gangs that form distinct groups, end up offending each other over territory or some other imagined slight, and then go to town when the right conditions are met, spontaneously rioting, fighting, whatever.
In our case, the unconscious conspiracists create a bogeyman opponent consisting of people with tunnels, and blue walls, and all kinds of activities reminiscent of Ba'al Pe'or. As if Avodah Zorah, which we do not have in its true form at this time, still tickles some spot in our collective being where we used to have spiritual sensors that had an almost unrelenting desire for it.
I'd be happy to answer you if you'd speak a little more respectfully. This is a delicate subject. We are not debating "Mantle vs. Mays" here.
ReplyDelete@My Opinion - you are obviously sincere - but I asked for proof and you produce nonsense. And then you get insulted that I call the nonsense what it is - nonsense.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to be taken seriously - produce evidence other than fringe personalities and calling anyone who disagrees as lacking in true understanding. So yes it is important to be respectful - your response has been less than respectful concerning a serious issue
Look you have a great website here and I really don't want to get into a fight with you. Fighting seems to be the norm on the web and it's quite sad when it occurs on frum sites. There are ways of having these discussions without barking. On this topic in particular, one has to try extra hard to act like a mensch. The topic is very subtle and involves wounded people.
ReplyDeleteI have no idea how respect comes into question when I threw up some links. I imagine you are just throwing back the charge I leveled at you, just to stay on the attack. Always on the attack, right?
I don't have the time to compose a dissertation. My links included several published books. Read them. You should if you want to be knowledgeable in this field.
I happen to know Neil Brick and find him quite credible. He's not fringe anything. He's a human being and a Jew and a smart guy.
It's a bit facile to accuse anyone with an opinion different than yours of being fringe or a propagandist. But that's what ritual abuse survivors endure. They are passed off as nutcases.
As for therapists and child abuse, I have worked for over 10 years with an organization of adult survivors. I have met, by handling correspondence with the public, probably a 1000 abuse survivors, more than a few claimed to be ritual abuse survivors.. One of the most frequent complaints is that therapists are not trained in child abuse. In investigating that, I talked to numerous psychologists and psychology students and looked at numerous programs, indeed very few have classes in the topic. Social work schools are better about this. The psych schools have other interests. Look up a few programs. You'll see.
And the thing about child abuse is that it's very hard to understand unless one has been through it. The few counselors that are good with the topic have studied it at length and worked with many survivors. Even then, it's really hard to grasp the damage it causes for people who haven't been through it.
To use another sports analogy: when I climb in the boxing ring, there are two possible outcomes.
ReplyDeleteI win the fight.
I lose the fight.
So, when I pick a fight on this blog, I'm prepared to win. I'm also prepared to lose.
What's your attitude? What outcomes are you expecting?
@My Opinion - you don't understand what I am saying. I gather you are neither a psychologist or a researcher. I have put much material on this blog supporting the view that satanic cult abuse is unsupported. You are saying you believe those who claim otherwise. I asked for evidence and you tell me to read published books. This implies that you think that if a book is published it is credible?! There are a lot of youtube videos out there describing conspiracy concerning abuse - some of which indicates that the Jews are behind it - I assume you know about Vicki Pollin and her disgusting interview with Oprah Winfrey?
ReplyDeleteI assume you are alware of the literature of implanted memories - some of which is on this blog. Did you read the articles here from Dorothy Rabbinowitz who one the Pulitzer prize regarding this topic? Did you listen to the BBC program I recently posted here? Are you aware of the decades of claims in America regarding this topiic without proof that such cults exists?
In short your dismissal of the evidence which I have gathered with such weak justification - is something I view as insulting. And yet you claim you want to be civil. I don't doubt your sincerity - but I do doubt your competence. I asked for evidence - you say go read a published book or watch Youtube videos. Not an answer with meaning. I have youtube videos which claim the existence of satanic cults - they are simply not credible evidence.
Yes, I'm aware of all that. We may be debating in part the scale of the thing. I'm not not talking about vast networks of ritual abuse. Most of the time I believe it happens within smaller groups such as extended families, actual cults, and religious groups like the Church. But I don't doubt the claims of broader networks. And I suspect evidence for that does get squashed.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't offer the BBC as proof of anything. If I listened to them, imagine what opinions I'd develop about the State of Israel and its dealing with the Arabs. Besides that, much of the ritual abuse is suspected to come from aristocrats in the UK, so the BBC is not exactly an impartial source.
But I don't think anything I'm going to say here will have much affect on you. You get so engrossed in assaulting people that you don't listen very well. I've met people like you before - too many in the frum world sadly. Interactions are generally unpleasant and unproductive. So let's move on to other topics.
@My Opinion - if you don't want to explicate the basis for your views - then there really was no reason to bring it up. You obviously are articulate enough to write a cogent response presenting data but instead you just criticize my (frum) abusive debating style
ReplyDeleteYou wrote, "more than a few claimed to be ritual abuse survivors". I feel for you. For you to accept that "ritual abuse" doesn't occur, you have to deal with the fact that people you befriended claimed to have been ritually abused.
ReplyDeleteWere your friends lying? Were they unintentionally misleading? Had your friends been manipulated into thinking they had been abused? Did you misunderstand them?
Or were they really abused in some other way, maybe worse, and expressed it as ritual abuse?
These are not easy questions to explore.
When I was a kid, I'm going to guess at this point maybe around eleven years old, I met two younger kids in the neighborhood, a brother and a sister, around five years old or so. These kids were extremely trusting and gentle. They came into my house without question, and one of my sisters and I played games with them.
The kids had bruises all over them.
We asked them where they got the bruises.
Answer: fell in the bathtub.
Soon after, the family moved away. But I still carry those kids around inside me.
No joking, I think emails like those of My Opinion, are digital examples of what could be rightfully termed "ritual" abuse. Carefully crafted, first they lure you in, then they ensnare you, and finally they go through their dissmissive rituals. I don't want to be graphic. Those who understand, will understand.
ReplyDeleteYikes! Am I going to have to carry all these books to the beach? I hope they're available on Kindle. And this is only up to the letter "C"?!
ReplyDeletei am sure you have read all these 'reputable' sources. Now if you can bring a similar number of sources to prove that the Holocaust did not exist, I would greatly appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you being obnoxious? It's very odd.
ReplyDeleteWhat the heck is wrong with you?
ReplyDeleteJoe, try not to be ridiculous. You disagree with the guy, fine. Now suddenly he's guilty of ritual abuse. It's odd that you prefaced your comment with "no joking," b/c it reads like a dumb joke.
ReplyDelete