There a typical range. Most non-custodial parents receive less than 50% visitation time since the courts accept that it isn't beneficial for the children to shuffle back and forth between two different homes every few days.
In terms of what is typical, in most states scheduled visitations for the non-custodial parent equal approximately 20% of the total parenting time.
Here is a sample breakdown of how that might look:
@David - you seem to have forgotten that Beth had full custody after the police removed her husband from the apartment after he was found to be abusive (physically and psychologically) as well as trying to have her put in a mental hospital without legitimate cause.
It has never been explained clearly why the judge decided to reverse their roles. Beth has done nothing to justify losing custody except being a foreigner.
Michael on the other hand clearly has issues that caused him to lose custody and be removed from the home In addition it is clear that he is not providing an adequate home for the twins - and is having them raised by two non-Jewish nannys. What "wisdom" justified taking these children from a clearly competent and loving mother and have them raised by strangers?
@Eddie you made an assertion that MO has its foundation in science. When I questioned that you now say that it tolerates the teaching of science or combines teaching science and Torah and getting a job or serving in the army
the issues you are now raising have nothing to do with science as a foundation. Please stick to your original assertion - which is the one I am responding to
I thought that the allegations of abuse that the police acted upon in removing him based on her complaint to the police were ultimately not upheld against him in court.
In any event, I understand that Beth believes the courts have been paramountly unfair in her case. Nevertheless, according to reports in the media she's appealed her case all the way through the Supreme Court and lost, exhausting her legal options in the court system.
Since she's seeking for her ex to grant her well deserved more parental time with their children in spite of the court rulings in his favor limiting her visitation time, the only way she can accomplish this is for him to be agreeable to it. The court options are exhausted. Unfair or not it seems that taking custody away from him is not in the cards so it is best to seek as much additional parenting time the parents can come to terms with.
David, on what basis did the father get custody? His connections with the Higher Court Judge (Thau)? Which judge in her right mind, particularly one who is supposed to have a special affinity with domestic violence victims as Judge Susanne Göttlicher claims (see article linked below and corresponding quote) gives full custody to the violent father with no visitation to the mother after she had originally made him have supervised access due to him being deemed dangerous?
Die Anzahl strittiger Verfahren sei gering, sagt Familienrichterin Susanne Göttlicher vom Bezirksgericht Wien-Leopoldstadt. Von 200 Scheidungen im Jahr habe sie zwei der zermürbenden Sorte. Obwohl seit 2001 das Gesetz zur gemeinsamen Obsorge besteht, wird meistens den Müttern das Sorgerecht zugesprochen. ….entgegnet Göttlicher. Sie entscheide nach der Situation der Familie und danach, was für das Kind die bessere "beziehungsweise die weniger schlechte Lösung" sei. Die Idee ist, dass sie sich in den Alltag einklinken, die Kinder zum Arzt bringen oder bei den Hausaufgaben helfen und dadurch auch die Mutter aktiv entlasten. Die Voraussetzung ist, dass beide Elternteile die Paar- und die Elternebene trennen und trotz Streitigkeiten kommunizieren. Oft sind es dann die Männer, die sich zurückziehen. Genau das empfiehlt Familienrichterin Göttlicher nicht zu tun, sondern "ein freundliches und positives Interesse" an den Kindern zu zeigen.
Something doesn't add up here, and I'm no mathematician.
So what do you propose being done considering that court appeal options have been exhausted after the Supreme Court disposing of the case? Even if all his rabbis turn against him and kick their children out of school it won't change the court custody decision. How does anyone win if he puts the children in public school because they're refused entry to Jewish schools?
My original assertion was that the single case of the CI ztl advising on how to correctly do complicated brain surgery is an exception. I then stated that MO is founded on Torah u Mada - which is what Lamm's manifesto of the same name also claims. But i pointed out also that our great rishonim, such as Rambam, Ramban, Ralbag etc, were experts in scientific and philosophical disciplines. Rambam was world renowned for his knowledge of science, philosophy, medicine and astronomy. Ramban was a medically trained doctor, and Ralbag was an authority on Astronomy, he invented several devices used by mariners and astronomers, and even has a crater on the moon named after him! These gedolim were the model for Torah and science.
R Hirsch ztl was also interested in high culture, although he argued - and i agree - that Torah has all the good middot we need, and we only accept the culture if it coincides with Torah values.
But just like the mada of Rambam's time was different from that of Hirsch's time, so it is also different today.
I am not saying MO of YU is better or worse than Torah in DE of R' Hirsch, but that we live in a different world. Finally, do you see the irony, that more recently you are attacking MO as being reformists, yet when they serve your social agenda (which is certainly a good thing, and one based on chessed v'emet) you are happy to publish letters from very Mo rabbis such as the one in this post.
"I thought that the allegations of abuse that the police acted upon in removing him based on her complaint to the police were ultimately not upheld against him in court."
This is what happened on that day you are describing: http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/04/schlesinger-twins-beth-describes-day.html . I believe the courts have not contested this version of events which has been corroborated by multiple independent witnesses (police doctor, Paul Foldes, etc). Whether or not your corrupt Austrian courts regard this behavior as abusive is irrelevant as to whether we believe this Schlesinger imbecile is fit to have custody of a box of postage stamps or not.
"In any event, I understand that Beth believes the courts have been paramountly unfair in her case." - Most people, including British MPs, believe the word you are looking for is corrupt: http://helpbeth.blogspot.co.il/p/british-parliament-14th-january-2014.html
"Since she's seeking for her ex to grant her well deserved more parental time with their children in spite of the court rulings in his favor limiting her visitation time, the only way she can accomplish this is for him to be agreeable to it." - This is where you are wrong, my friend! Schlesinger hasn't been able to organize all this corruption on his own, he has clearly had accomplices. We know Biderman and Thau are part of the corruption network: http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/04/schlesinger-twins-court-document-rabbi.html . Schlesinger has managed to draw the attention of the international media and worldwide Jewish community, to the point that he has caused significant reputational damage to those who have assisted him. (For all practical purposes Biderman is neither considered a Rabbi nor a Chabad Shliach outside of Austria) . I imagine it will only be a matter of time before he finds himself more and more isolated. If I was Schlesinger, I wouldn't be sitting as comfortably as @David implies.
"As such using a typical non-custodial visitation schedule might be a good starting point, since Beth is saying she is not getting enough time with their children." - What makes you so sure that the father would agree to this? He regularly cancels the visits that the courts have awarded the mother so I can't see how your suggestion makes any sense whatsoever.
Schlesinger is becoming the equivalent of a bad smell that everyone is slowly moving away from. The saddest thing of all is his state of denial. His corrupt courts have no legitimacy and fool no one but himself.
Are you saying that the father would be prepared to turn the children's world more upside down than it already is! Would he do anything to keep them as his possessions, including denouncing his Judaism and theirs? . What sort of man is Michael Schlesinger? What sort of Doctor is he?
I believe Rabbi Biderman wrote a statement to the secular Court in Vienna saying how well the children were doing. This was after they were taken away from their loving and capable mother and given to their emotionally and physically abusive father, which led to one of the children to self- harm! How could Biderman have ever sided with this evil father from the beginning? What sort of Rabbi is he?
It is fantastic that Rabbonim around the world recognise what a wrong decision the Court have made. It's a shame that the Austrian Jewish Community, their leaders and Rabbonim don't see this too!
What sort of Jewish Community are they in Vienna? Perhaps we could hear from Rabbi Eisenberg!
Will the father ever see sense and realise that he cannot keep these children like his possession and he needs to be civil, whether they attend Jewish schools or not? David did you mention the word compromise?
It might be refreshing for Schlesinger to tune into reality for a change. This may explain why he has refused to undergo a psychiatric evaluation:http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/04/schlesinger-twins-beth-discusses-issue.html
"Even if all his rabbis turn against him and kick him out of shul and kick their children out of school it won't change the court custody decision." - The Rabbis need to make this stand anyway and kick him out. This is an unambiguous message that Schlesinger's behavior is in no way representative of anything Jewish and it is better he takes his reign of abuse outside the Jewish community. There is no place in Judaism for anyone to act in this way. His abusive behavior right now is "non-frum" so there would be no change there!
David, am I right in assuming you're suggesting that not only the father but ALSO THE CHILDREN could be penalized for the father's un-Jewish behavior? What an extraordinary idea! Nobody has suggested anywhere that the kids be punished - this is ludicrous. Why would anyone want them to be expelled from kindergarten (they do not attend school), even if the father were to be banned at shul? The children, as the father's victims and not as perpetrators of anything, will surely never, as you phrase it, be "kicked out". If that were to happen, the news would certainly spread fast in the media in both Vienna and abroad.
At present the children are being raised by foreigners who are not Jewish and stay overnight with them when the father is on duty. The illusion presented to the judge and social workers at the Jugendamt was that the father's family would be helping him take care of the boys, yet from all accounts they have as little to do with them as possible, only appearing at appropriate moments to impress judges and social workers.
There are several possible solutions, all involving the very un-Jewish father. I don't intend enumerating them but will leave it to your imagination to work out what they might be. There is information relating to solutions in Austria specifically to be found online, which I haven't seen you mention so far.
Please enumerate the "possible solutions". The only thing found online are suggestions about social pressure and diplomatic pressure -- both of which have been ongoing for a long time already without success.
B’H more and more UK Rabonnim are coming forward and stating their concerns for the two little boys so cruelly and barbarically ripped out of their loving mother’s arms. It is painfully obvious to all that it’s not only Schlesinger who does not care an iota about the children. Where is Chief Rabbi Eisenberg? Rabbi Biderman? Rabbi Pardes? Everyone can see Schlesinger only wanted to take the children off Beth in order to abuse her more.
Not once as David or Truth Seeker Jew in any of their postings ever mentioned anything about the welfare of the twins. Nor have they addressed any of the allegations of dishonesty by Schlesinger, or the converted Judge Thau. Both of them have twisted the words of Rabbi Lent and Rabi Kaplan and tried to make this into an issue of ‘visiting’. If Truth Seeker Jew had any interest in the truth he would be seeking it out wouldn’t he not be too bothered about her ‘seeking more well deserved time‘.
As for his assertion that he thought ‘the allegations of abuse that the police acted upon in removing him based on her complaint to the police were ultimately not upheld against him in court ‘. When you have a crooked court... but there is one Court that’s not crooked. Talking of this we are now counting down the days to Matan Torah. When they yet again read the Ten Commandments in the Shuls in Vienna will they even hear the Commandment not to lie????
David I am trying to get my head around this "visiting"!
If the father is a practising doctor, he would no doubt have to work long hours with responsibility to his patients!
Why is he employing non Jewish help to care for his children for long hours, when Beth is ready and perfectly capable of caring for her own children and showing them some Yiddishkeit, especially over Shabbat which he is denying them? All children should see their mothers light the Shabbat candles, don't you think?
What is so extraodinary is why he is demanding such high maintenance from Beth! Is this because he has to pay his staff?
Also, why he is demanding that Beth has to pay each time she sees her children and that non Jewish people have to be employed for the handovers, when this two minute handover could quite easily be done by a Jew, as a Mitzvah!
Why can't he be civil and do the handover himself?
It sounds like Dr. Schlesinger is obsessive and controlling and is only trying to punish Beth and the children wouldn't you think? Is this the way he is trying to build a bond with his children? Does he think Sammy and Benji are stupid and blind. Doesn't he realise how much pain he is giving them?
Emunah What the twins must be going through must be torment for them. I just hope that the delays in their development,because of the anguish they are experiencing doesn't delay them from going to school in September with their peers!
Perhaps it would be better if they were taken out of Chabad, because if the teachers are anything like Biderman, they must be ruthless! I wonder what training any of the teachers have had?
Our thoughts must be with the children, who it would appear are really suffering. All they need is the right to be with their wonderful capable mother and there is no reason why they shouldn't. The Court have given orders but no reasons! What sort of Court does that? Only an Austrian Court as we know from the past!!!
This case will never close until justice is done for these children!
Dr Schlesinger - it is to be assumed - swore an oath at the Vienna Medical School when he graduated in Medicine, stressing the following:
"....You are now invited to promise that you will constantly act in a way which is in accordance with your academic background.........Thus you are going to promise.........you are going to prove yourself worthy of your academic background both in your life and in your professional career.....to always be mindful of human dignity and rights....
Each graduate places their finger on the university sceptre and announces: "I promise."
So here we have yet more to add to the list of Dr Schlesinger's broken promises and court orders. Does Family Court Judge Göttlicher not take oaths sworn at academic degree ceremonies seriously? Does Rabbi Biederman have no respect for the academic world in Vienna? Does Dr Schlesinger not care what he swore? Does Judge Konstanze Thau really believe that by interfering in a court case, both she and Dr Schlesinger are "proving themselves worthy of their academic background"? Does she not have the guts to confess? Do the leaders of the Jewish Community really believe the father is "always mindful of human dignity and rights" when he attempts to keep his sons and their mother as far apart as possible by lying to the court and disobeying their orders? Dr Schlesinger was seen assaulting Beth outside the court by her lawyer, yet this reckless man still denies his undisciplined, undignified behavior.
"Meine Damen und Herren, liebe Kolleginnen und Kollegen! Sie haben Ihr Studium gemäß den geltenden Vorschriften abgeschlossen, die vorgeschriebenen Prüfungen abgelegt und die geforderten schriftlichen Arbeiten verfasst. Sie haben ersucht, die Verleihung des akademischen Grades in feierlicher Form zu bestätigen. Sie werden nun eingeladen zu versprechen, sich stets so zu verhalten, wie es Ihre akademische Ausbildung gebietet. Sie wollen also versprechen: Die Kenntnisse und Fähigkeiten, die Sie erworben haben, zu pflegen und ständig durch Fortbildung zu erweitern und zu verbessern, der Wissenschaft zu dienen, deren Ziele zu fördern und dadurch verantwortlich zur Lösung der Probleme der menschlichen Gesellschaft und deren gedeihlicher Weiterentwicklung beizutragen, nach Wahrheit zu streben und wissenschaftliche Erkenntnisse nicht zu unterdrücken oder zu verfälschen, Ihr Wissen und Können zum Wohle der Menschen, ohne Ansehung der Person einzusetzen, die Menschenwürde und die Menschenrechte stets zu achten, Ihre beruflichen Pflichten mit gleicher Menschlichkeit gegen alle auszuüben und weder eigenen Schwächen noch äußerem Druck oder Drohung nachzugeben, der ,Universität´ in Treue verbunden zu bleiben und sich des verliehenen akademischen Grades in Leben und Beruf würdig zu erweisen. Sind Sie bereit, dies nach bestem Wissen und Gewissen zu versprechen?" Nun tritt die Pedellin/der Pedell auf die Kandidatin/Kandidaten zu. Jede Kandidatin/jeder Kandidat legt die Schwurfinger der rechten Hand auf den Fakultätszepter und leistet das Gelöbnis mit den (lateinischen Worten: "Spondeo, ac polliceor." "Ich verspreche es.")"
You're 100% correct. The father is all wrong. Now what? The courts have all closed their doors to Beth. The British MPs who spoke out didn't change anything. All the foreign rabbis writing letters over the past year or two have not produced tangible results. The media pressure's been ongoing for years without positive change. If you stop him from going to shul he won't be more amicable to changing what's happening.
So what do you suggest be done? Nothing's worked so far and a lot's been tried.
Why isnt anyone thinking of poor Sammy and Benji. They deserve to have both parents in their lives to love and protect them. This appalling situation has to stop. This is not about Beth or Michael this is about the children. Why are their lives being turned upside down. For what? Michael Schlesinger wake up and smell the coffee. You will live to regret what you are doing in years to come. Please think of your children and STOP using them as weapons. They adore their mother. Why shouldn't they, We all deserve a warm loving mother
David What do you think could be done? Moshe Cohen has suggested that the boys spend half the week and alternate Shabbatot with each parent? What do you think?
They could also develop more if they spent more time with Beth, because not only is she loving and capable, but she is respected educator!
The father must only think of what is best for the children. Don't you agree?
Perhaps Sunday with the father, Monday with the mother, Tuesday with the father, Wednesday with the mother, Thursday with the father, Friday with the mother and switch-offs every Shabbos.
Has the judge ever asked Sammy and Benji where they would prefer to live and go to kindergarten? Of course they're too young to be taken seriously in court but their answers might be helpful when the judge is deciding whether to give them more time with their mother. She could ask if they're happy at their father's place, what they like there and what they don't, and get an idea of how they're feeling. After all, they are nearly 6 and I believe their speech is gradually coming on after years with little progress.
Are they happy in the Chabad kindergarten? Has the judge ever asked them? It actually doesn't sound like a nice place for kids at all, especially if their mother is not allowed to ask the teachers any questions. The boys can hardly feel comfortable there under the circumstances. I'd suspect that after being there for 4 years, they'd be bored out of their minds too, like most children who are kept at this low level for so long. Why doesn't their dad consider changing them to the Zwi Perez Chajes kindergarten? I believe it's much better equipped and has better teachers. Sammy and Benji would enjoy the challenge there.
Has the judge ever met the boys? That might also be an idea - if she hasn't. It would be much easier for her to see if the father is telling the truth about them if she got to know them herself. I've heard he has the tendency to prevent them from spending more time with their mother because it would upset them. If the judge could experience them playing with Beth and seeing how important she is to them, then it would be much more likely that they could visit her more often.
David Don't you find it interesting that all the people you have mentioned are taking an interest in this case? Why do you think? Isn't it because there is absolute outrage around the world because of Austria's behaviour regarding a simple custody case?
The question is why are Austria protecting a low life like Michael Schlesinger, who was evicted from the family home and only given supervised visits, until mysteriously one day the judge reversed her decision and he was given full custody with little or no custody given to his children's mother?
The little contact that Beth has been granted has always been "unsupervised" so she has never been classed as dangerous. By the way, have the children's non Jewish foreign carers been police checked and are they even legally in the country?
Why doesn't the court quite simply give custody to Beth or at least lots more contact? Why should the children suffer whilst they under achieve and are so unhappy?
Why is the father denying the children their mother?
Why should the behaviour of the Austrians towards two little boys be tolerated?
The world is still outraged as to what Austria did to the Jews in the past. Would you say "they did wrong?" Wouldn't you say they are doing wrong now?
None of it makes sense!
Does Austria want to isolate themselves from the rest of the world, whist protecting this father? If so. Why?
Why would Austria go to such lengths unless there is a major cover up?
David You are beginning to sound rediculous and that you are only trying to protect the father and his antics to keep the children as his possessions and not care about their welfare at all?.
Please tell me I'm wrong and that you really do care about these children and you think that the father should be civil to their mother for the sake of their children..
At this rate, they may be in his custody, but they will be damaged goods! is that what he wants for his children?
There are some other comments that need answering below.
B’H more and more UK Rabonnim are coming forward and stating their concerns for the two little boys so cruelly and barbarically ripped out of their loving mother’s arms. It is painfully obvious to all that it’s not only Schlesinger who does not care an iota about the children. Where is Chief Rabbi Eisenberg? Rabbi Biderman? Rabbi Pardes? Everyone can see Schlesinger only wanted to take the children off Beth in order to abuse her more.
Not once as David or Truth Seeker Jew in any of their postings ever mentioned anything about the welfare of the twins. Nor have they addressed any of the allegations of dishonesty by Schlesinger, or the converted Judge Thau. Both of them have twisted the words of Rabbi Lent and Rabi Kaplan and tried to make this into an issue of ‘visiting’. If Truth Seeker Jew had any interest in the truth he would be seeking it out wouldn’t he not be too bothered about her ‘seeking more well deserved time‘.
As for his assertion that he thought ‘the allegations of abuse that the police acted upon in removing him based on her complaint to the police were ultimately not upheld against him in court ‘. When you have a crooked court... but there is one Court that’s not crooked. Talking of this we are now counting down the days to Matan Torah. When they yet again read the Ten Commandments in the Shuls in Vienna will they even hear the Commandment not to lie???
David i think thats a great idea. Can you suggest a way to implement this? The children would benefit as they would be so much happier in life. It really will make a difference
I have no idea whether he would be amenable to this idea. I was simply responding to Moshe Cohen's suggestion of half the week with the father and half the week with the mother.
Another idea might be every morning and afternoon with the father and every evening and night with the mother.
If you genuinely wish to find out whether there is any possibility for any negotiations at all, you should contact Schlesinger yourself and see whether he is open to any compromise arrangement. I suspect you will get nowhere. You could also contact his closest Rabbis, Rabbi Josef Pardes and Jacob Biderman to see whether they could confirm if he is open to any kind of mediation or not.
1. What is the current visitation schedule Beth has been granted by the court?
ReplyDelete2. What is a typical visitation schedule courts in Austria grant non-custodial parents?
David what country do you live in and is there a typical/average visitation schedule, which non custodial parents are granted there?
ReplyDeleteAlso, what disciplinary measures are put in place for fathers, who break court orders?
There a typical range. Most non-custodial parents receive less than 50% visitation time since the courts accept that it isn't beneficial for the children to shuffle back and forth between two different homes every few days.
ReplyDeleteIn terms of what is typical, in most states scheduled visitations for the non-custodial parent equal approximately 20% of the total parenting time.
Here is a sample breakdown of how that might look:
Every other weekend
One weeknight per week
Two - six weeks in the summer
Some holidays
@David - you seem to have forgotten that Beth had full custody after the police removed her husband from the apartment after he was found to be abusive (physically and psychologically) as well as trying to have her put in a mental hospital without legitimate cause.
ReplyDeleteIt has never been explained clearly why the judge decided to reverse their roles. Beth has done nothing to justify losing custody except being a foreigner.
Michael on the other hand clearly has issues that caused him to lose custody and be removed from the home In addition it is clear that he is not providing an adequate home for the twins - and is having them raised by two non-Jewish nannys. What "wisdom" justified taking these children from a clearly competent and loving mother and have them raised by strangers?
@Eddie you made an assertion that MO has its foundation in science. When I questioned that you now say that it tolerates the teaching of science or combines teaching science and Torah and getting a job or serving in the army
ReplyDeletethe issues you are now raising have nothing to do with science as a foundation. Please stick to your original assertion - which is the one I am responding to
I thought that the allegations of abuse that the police acted upon in removing him based on her complaint to the police were ultimately not upheld against him in court.
ReplyDeleteIn any event, I understand that Beth believes the courts have been paramountly unfair in her case. Nevertheless, according to reports in the media she's appealed her case all the way through the Supreme Court and lost, exhausting her legal options in the court system.
Since she's seeking for her ex to grant her well deserved more parental time with their children in spite of the court rulings in his favor limiting her visitation time, the only way she can accomplish this is for him to be agreeable to it. The court options are exhausted. Unfair or not it seems that taking custody away from him is not in the cards so it is best to seek as much additional parenting time the parents can come to terms with.
David, on what basis did the father get custody? His connections with the Higher Court Judge (Thau)? Which judge in her right mind, particularly one who is supposed to have a special affinity with domestic violence victims as Judge Susanne Göttlicher claims (see article linked below and corresponding quote) gives full custody to the violent father with no visitation to the mother after she had originally made him have supervised access due to him being deemed dangerous?
ReplyDeletehttp://derstandard.at/2886463/Scheidung-Vaeter-im-Schatten
Die Anzahl strittiger Verfahren sei gering, sagt Familienrichterin Susanne Göttlicher vom Bezirksgericht Wien-Leopoldstadt. Von 200 Scheidungen im Jahr habe sie zwei der zermürbenden Sorte. Obwohl seit 2001 das Gesetz zur gemeinsamen Obsorge besteht, wird meistens den Müttern das Sorgerecht zugesprochen. ….entgegnet Göttlicher. Sie entscheide nach der Situation der Familie und danach, was für das Kind die bessere "beziehungsweise die weniger schlechte Lösung" sei.
Die Idee ist, dass sie sich in den Alltag einklinken, die Kinder zum Arzt bringen oder bei den Hausaufgaben helfen und dadurch auch die Mutter aktiv entlasten. Die Voraussetzung ist, dass beide Elternteile die Paar- und die Elternebene trennen und trotz Streitigkeiten kommunizieren. Oft sind es dann die Männer, die sich zurückziehen. Genau das empfiehlt Familienrichterin Göttlicher nicht zu tun, sondern "ein freundliches und positives Interesse" an den Kindern zu zeigen.
Something doesn't add up here, and I'm no mathematician.
So what do you propose being done considering that court appeal options have been exhausted after the Supreme Court disposing of the case? Even if all his rabbis turn against him and kick their children out of school it won't change the court custody decision. How does anyone win if he puts the children in public school because they're refused entry to Jewish schools?
ReplyDeleteMy original assertion was that the single case of the CI ztl advising on how to correctly do complicated brain surgery is an exception. I then stated that MO is founded on Torah u Mada - which is what Lamm's manifesto of the same name also claims.
ReplyDeleteBut i pointed out also that our great rishonim, such as Rambam, Ramban, Ralbag etc, were experts in scientific and philosophical disciplines. Rambam was world renowned for his knowledge of science, philosophy, medicine and astronomy. Ramban was a medically trained doctor, and Ralbag was an authority on Astronomy, he invented several devices used by mariners and astronomers, and even has a crater on the moon named after him! These gedolim were the model for Torah and science.
R Hirsch ztl was also interested in high culture, although he argued - and i agree - that Torah has all the good middot we need, and we only accept the culture if it coincides with Torah values.
But just like the mada of Rambam's time was different from that of Hirsch's time, so it is also different today.
I am not saying MO of YU is better or worse than Torah in DE of R' Hirsch, but that we live in a different world.
Finally, do you see the irony, that more recently you are attacking MO as being reformists, yet when they serve your social agenda (which is certainly a good thing, and one based on chessed v'emet) you are happy to publish letters from very Mo rabbis such as the one in this post.
"I thought that the allegations of abuse that the police acted upon in removing him based on her complaint to the police were ultimately not upheld against him in court."
ReplyDeleteThis is what happened on that day you are describing: http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/04/schlesinger-twins-beth-describes-day.html . I believe the courts have not contested this version of events which has been corroborated by multiple independent witnesses (police doctor, Paul Foldes, etc). Whether or not your corrupt Austrian courts regard this behavior as abusive is irrelevant as to whether we believe this Schlesinger imbecile is fit to have custody of a box of postage stamps or not.
"In any event, I understand that Beth believes the courts have been paramountly unfair in her case." - Most people, including British MPs, believe the word you are looking for is corrupt: http://helpbeth.blogspot.co.il/p/british-parliament-14th-january-2014.html
"Since she's seeking for her ex to grant her well deserved more parental time with their children in spite of the court rulings in his favor limiting her visitation time, the only way she can accomplish this is for him to be agreeable to it." - This is where you are wrong, my friend! Schlesinger hasn't been able to organize all this corruption on his own, he has clearly had accomplices. We know Biderman and Thau are part of the corruption network: http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/04/schlesinger-twins-court-document-rabbi.html . Schlesinger has managed to draw the attention of the international media and worldwide Jewish community, to the point that he has caused significant reputational damage to those who have assisted him. (For all practical purposes Biderman is neither considered a Rabbi nor a Chabad Shliach outside of Austria) . I imagine it will only be a matter of time before he finds himself more and more isolated. If I was Schlesinger, I wouldn't be sitting as comfortably as @David implies.
"As such using a typical non-custodial visitation schedule might be a good starting point, since Beth is saying she is not getting enough time with their children." - What makes you so sure that the father would agree to this? He regularly cancels the visits that the courts have awarded the mother so I can't see how your suggestion makes any sense whatsoever.
Schlesinger is becoming the equivalent of a bad smell that everyone is slowly moving away from. The saddest thing of all is his state of denial. His corrupt courts have no legitimacy and fool no one but himself.
Are you saying that the father would be prepared to turn the children's world more upside down than it already is! Would he do anything to keep them as his possessions, including denouncing his Judaism and theirs? . What sort of man is Michael Schlesinger? What sort of Doctor is he?
ReplyDeleteI believe Rabbi Biderman wrote a statement to the secular Court in Vienna saying how well the children were doing. This was after they were taken away from their loving and capable mother and given to their emotionally and physically abusive father, which led to one of the children to self- harm! How could Biderman have ever sided with this evil father from the beginning? What sort of Rabbi is he?
It is fantastic that Rabbonim around the world recognise what a wrong decision the Court have made. It's a shame that the Austrian Jewish Community, their leaders and Rabbonim don't see this too!
What sort of Jewish Community are they in Vienna?
Perhaps we could hear from Rabbi Eisenberg!
Will the father ever see sense and realise that he cannot keep these children like his possession and he needs to be civil, whether they attend Jewish schools or not?
David did you mention the word compromise?
It might be refreshing for Schlesinger to tune into reality for a change. This may explain why he has refused to undergo a psychiatric evaluation:http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2014/04/schlesinger-twins-beth-discusses-issue.html
ReplyDelete"Even if all his rabbis turn against him and kick him out of shul and kick their children out of school it won't change the court custody decision." - The Rabbis need to make this stand anyway and kick him out. This is an unambiguous message that Schlesinger's behavior is in no way representative of anything Jewish and it is better he takes his reign of abuse outside the Jewish community. There is no place in Judaism for anyone to act in this way. His abusive behavior right now is "non-frum" so there would be no change there!
Rabbi Eidensohn, it looks like the two postings above about MO are in the wrong thread!
ReplyDeleteDavid, am I right in assuming you're suggesting that not only the father but ALSO THE CHILDREN could be penalized for the father's un-Jewish behavior? What an extraordinary idea! Nobody has suggested anywhere that the kids be punished - this is ludicrous. Why would anyone want them to be expelled from kindergarten (they do not attend school), even if the father were to be banned at shul? The children, as the father's victims and not as perpetrators of anything, will surely never, as you phrase it, be "kicked out". If that were to happen, the news would certainly spread fast in the media in both Vienna and abroad.
ReplyDeleteAt present the children are being raised by foreigners who are not Jewish and stay overnight with them when the father is on duty. The illusion presented to the judge and social workers at the Jugendamt was that the father's family would be helping him take care of the boys, yet from all accounts they have as little to do with them as possible, only appearing at appropriate moments to impress judges and social workers.
There are several possible solutions, all involving the very un-Jewish father. I don't intend enumerating them but will leave it to your imagination to work out what they might be. There is information relating to solutions in Austria specifically to be found online, which I haven't seen you mention so far.
Please enumerate the "possible solutions". The only thing found online are suggestions about social pressure and diplomatic pressure -- both of which have been ongoing for a long time already without success.
ReplyDeleteB’H more and
ReplyDeletemore UK Rabonnim are coming forward and stating their concerns for the two
little boys so cruelly and barbarically ripped out of their loving mother’s
arms. It is painfully obvious to all that
it’s not only Schlesinger who does not care an iota about the children. Where is Chief Rabbi Eisenberg? Rabbi Biderman? Rabbi Pardes? Everyone can see Schlesinger only wanted to
take the children off Beth in order to abuse her more.
Not once as
David or Truth Seeker Jew in any of their postings ever mentioned anything
about the welfare of the twins. Nor have they addressed any of the allegations
of dishonesty by Schlesinger, or the converted Judge Thau. Both of them have twisted the words of
Rabbi Lent and Rabi Kaplan and tried to make this into an issue of ‘visiting’. If Truth Seeker Jew had any interest in
the truth he would be seeking it out wouldn’t he not be too bothered about her ‘seeking
more well deserved time‘.
As for his
assertion that he thought ‘the allegations of abuse that the police acted upon
in removing him based on her complaint to the police were ultimately not upheld
against him in court ‘. When you have
a crooked court... but there is one Court that’s not crooked. Talking of this we are now counting down the
days to Matan Torah. When they yet
again read the Ten Commandments in the Shuls in Vienna will they even hear the
Commandment not to lie????
Rabbi Eidensohn, this posting is on the wrong thread!
ReplyDeleteDavid I am trying to get my head around this "visiting"!
ReplyDeleteIf the father is a practising doctor, he would no doubt have to work long hours with responsibility to his patients!
Why is he employing non Jewish help to care for his children for long hours, when Beth is ready and perfectly capable of caring for her own children and showing them some Yiddishkeit, especially over Shabbat which he is denying them? All children should see their mothers light the Shabbat candles, don't you think?
What is so extraodinary is why he is demanding such high maintenance from Beth! Is this because he has to pay his staff?
Also, why he is demanding that Beth has to pay each time she sees her children and that non Jewish people have to be employed for the handovers, when this two minute handover could quite easily be done by a Jew, as a Mitzvah!
Why can't he be civil and do the handover himself?
It sounds like Dr. Schlesinger is obsessive and controlling and is only trying to punish Beth and the children wouldn't you think? Is this the way he is trying to build a bond with his children? Does he think Sammy and Benji are stupid and blind. Doesn't he realise how much pain he is giving them?
Emunah What the twins must be going through must be torment for them. I just hope that the delays in their development,because of the anguish they are experiencing doesn't delay them from going to school in September with their peers!
ReplyDeletePerhaps it would be better if they were taken out of Chabad, because if the teachers are anything like Biderman, they must be ruthless! I wonder what training any of the teachers have had?
Our thoughts must be with the children, who it would appear are really suffering. All they need is the right to be with their wonderful capable mother and there is no reason why they shouldn't. The Court have given orders but no reasons! What sort of Court does that? Only an Austrian Court as we know from the past!!!
This case will never close until justice is done for these children!
Dr Schlesinger - it is to be assumed - swore an oath at the Vienna Medical School when he graduated in Medicine, stressing the following:
ReplyDelete"....You are now invited to promise that you will constantly act in a way which is in accordance with your academic background.........Thus you are going to promise.........you are going to prove yourself worthy of your academic background both in your life and in your professional career.....to always be mindful of human dignity and rights....
Each graduate places their finger on the university sceptre and announces: "I promise."
So here we have yet more to add to the list of Dr Schlesinger's broken
promises and court orders. Does Family Court Judge Göttlicher not take
oaths sworn at academic degree ceremonies seriously? Does Rabbi
Biederman have no respect for the academic world in Vienna? Does Dr
Schlesinger not care what he swore? Does Judge Konstanze Thau really
believe that by interfering in a court case, both she and Dr Schlesinger
are "proving themselves worthy of their academic background"? Does she not have the guts to confess? Do the
leaders of the Jewish Community really believe the father is "always
mindful of human dignity and rights" when he attempts to keep his sons
and their mother as far apart as possible by lying to the court and
disobeying their orders? Dr Schlesinger was seen assaulting Beth outside
the court by her lawyer, yet this reckless man still denies his
undisciplined, undignified behavior.
"Meine Damen und Herren, liebe Kolleginnen und Kollegen! Sie haben
Ihr Studium gemäß den geltenden Vorschriften abgeschlossen, die
vorgeschriebenen Prüfungen abgelegt und die geforderten schriftlichen
Arbeiten verfasst. Sie haben ersucht, die Verleihung des akademischen
Grades in feierlicher Form zu bestätigen. Sie werden nun eingeladen zu
versprechen, sich stets so zu verhalten, wie es Ihre akademische
Ausbildung gebietet.
Sie wollen also versprechen: Die Kenntnisse und Fähigkeiten, die Sie
erworben haben, zu pflegen und ständig durch Fortbildung zu erweitern
und zu verbessern, der Wissenschaft zu dienen, deren Ziele zu fördern
und dadurch verantwortlich zur Lösung der Probleme der menschlichen
Gesellschaft und deren gedeihlicher Weiterentwicklung beizutragen, nach
Wahrheit zu streben und wissenschaftliche Erkenntnisse nicht zu
unterdrücken oder zu verfälschen, Ihr Wissen und Können zum Wohle der
Menschen, ohne Ansehung der Person einzusetzen, die Menschenwürde und
die Menschenrechte stets zu achten, Ihre beruflichen Pflichten mit
gleicher Menschlichkeit gegen alle auszuüben und weder eigenen Schwächen
noch äußerem Druck oder Drohung nachzugeben, der ,Universität´ in Treue
verbunden zu bleiben und sich des verliehenen akademischen Grades in
Leben und Beruf würdig zu erweisen.
Sind Sie bereit, dies nach bestem Wissen und Gewissen zu versprechen?"
Nun tritt die Pedellin/der Pedell auf die Kandidatin/Kandidaten zu. Jede
Kandidatin/jeder Kandidat legt die Schwurfinger der rechten Hand auf
den Fakultätszepter und leistet das Gelöbnis mit den (lateinischen
Worten: "Spondeo, ac polliceor." "Ich verspreche es.")"
You're 100% correct. The father is all wrong. Now what? The courts have all closed their doors to Beth. The British MPs who spoke out didn't change anything. All the foreign rabbis writing letters over the past year or two have not produced tangible results. The media pressure's been ongoing for years without positive change. If you stop him from going to shul he won't be more amicable to changing what's happening.
ReplyDeleteSo what do you suggest be done? Nothing's worked so far and a lot's been tried.
Why isnt anyone thinking of poor Sammy and Benji. They deserve to have both parents in their lives to love and protect them.
ReplyDeleteThis appalling situation has to stop. This is not about Beth or Michael this is about the children.
Why are their lives being turned upside down. For what?
Michael Schlesinger wake up and smell the coffee. You will live to regret what you are doing in years to come. Please think of your children and STOP using them as weapons. They adore their mother. Why shouldn't they, We all deserve a warm loving mother
Why cant the boys live half the week with each parent and every other shabbos with each parent?
ReplyDeleteDavid What do you think could be done? Moshe Cohen has suggested that the boys spend half the week and alternate Shabbatot with each parent? What do you think?
ReplyDeleteThey could also develop more if they spent more time with Beth, because not only is she loving and capable, but she is respected educator!
The father must only think of what is best for the children. Don't you agree?
David, but why can't the father just be a mench? What is he hoping to gain by keeping the children from their mother?
ReplyDeletePerhaps Sunday with the father, Monday with the mother, Tuesday with the father, Wednesday with the mother, Thursday with the father, Friday with the mother and switch-offs every Shabbos.
ReplyDeleteBecause Schlesinger won't agree to it and the Jewish community in Vienna aren't interested in trying to help the situation.
ReplyDeleteSo what do YOU suggest @David?
ReplyDeleteHas the judge ever asked Sammy and Benji where they would prefer to live and go to kindergarten? Of course they're too young to be taken seriously in court but their answers might be helpful when the judge is deciding whether to give them more time with their mother. She could ask if they're happy at their father's place, what they like there and what they don't, and get an idea of how they're feeling. After all, they are nearly 6 and I believe their speech is gradually coming on after years with little progress.
ReplyDeleteAre they happy in the Chabad kindergarten? Has the judge ever asked them? It actually doesn't sound like a nice place for kids at all, especially if their mother is not allowed to ask the teachers any questions. The boys can hardly feel comfortable there under the circumstances. I'd suspect that after being there for 4 years, they'd be bored out of their minds too, like most children who are kept at this low level for so long. Why doesn't their dad consider changing them to the Zwi Perez Chajes kindergarten? I believe it's much better equipped and has better teachers. Sammy and Benji would enjoy the challenge there.
Has the judge ever met the boys? That might also be an idea - if she hasn't. It would be much easier for her to see if the father is telling the truth about them if she got to know them herself. I've heard he has the tendency to prevent them from spending more time with their mother because it would upset them. If the judge could experience them playing with Beth and seeing how important she is to them, then it would be much more likely that they could visit her more often.
David Don't you find it interesting that all the people you have mentioned are taking an interest in this case? Why do you think? Isn't it because there is absolute outrage around the world because of Austria's behaviour regarding a simple custody case?
ReplyDeleteThe question is why are Austria protecting a low life like Michael Schlesinger, who was evicted from the family home and only given supervised visits, until mysteriously one day the judge reversed her decision
and he was given full custody
with little or
no custody given to his
children's mother?
The little contact that Beth
has been granted has always been "unsupervised" so she has never been classed as
dangerous. By the way, have the children's non Jewish foreign carers been police checked and are they even
legally in the country?
Why doesn't the court quite
simply give custody to Beth
or at least lots more contact?
Why should the children
suffer whilst they under
achieve and are so unhappy?
Why is the father denying the children their mother?
Why should the behaviour of the Austrians towards two little boys be tolerated?
The world is still outraged as
to what Austria did to the Jews in the past. Would you
say "they did wrong?" Wouldn't you say they are doing wrong now?
None of it makes sense!
Does Austria want to isolate
themselves from the rest of the world, whist protecting
this father? If so. Why?
Why would Austria go to such lengths unless there is a major cover up?
What do you think David?
What a funny man (?) you are, David!
ReplyDeleteDavid You are beginning to sound rediculous and that you are only trying to protect the father and his antics to keep the children as his possessions and not care about their welfare at all?.
ReplyDeletePlease tell me I'm wrong and that you really do care about these children and you think that the father should be civil to their mother for the sake of their children..
At this rate, they may be in his custody, but they will be damaged goods! is that what he wants for his children?
There are some other comments that need answering below.
B’H more and
ReplyDeletemore UK Rabonnim are coming forward and stating their concerns for the two
little boys so cruelly and barbarically ripped out of their loving mother’s
arms. It is painfully obvious to all that
it’s not only Schlesinger who does not care an iota about the children. Where is Chief Rabbi Eisenberg? Rabbi Biderman? Rabbi Pardes? Everyone can see Schlesinger only wanted to
take the children off Beth in order to abuse her more.
Not once as
David or Truth Seeker Jew in any of their postings ever mentioned anything
about the welfare of the twins. Nor have they addressed any of the allegations
of dishonesty by Schlesinger, or the converted Judge Thau. Both of them have twisted the words of
Rabbi Lent and Rabi Kaplan and tried to make this into an issue of ‘visiting’. If Truth Seeker Jew had any interest in
the truth he would be seeking it out wouldn’t he not be too bothered about her ‘seeking
more well deserved time‘.
As for his
assertion that he thought ‘the allegations of abuse that the police acted upon
in removing him based on her complaint to the police were ultimately not upheld
against him in court ‘. When you have
a crooked court... but there is one Court that’s not crooked. Talking of this we are now counting down the
days to Matan Torah. When they yet
again read the Ten Commandments in the Shuls in Vienna will they even hear the
Commandment not to lie???
David i think thats a great idea. Can you suggest a way to implement this?
ReplyDeleteThe children would benefit as they would be so much happier in life. It really will make a difference
@David, you cannot possibly negotiate in this manner as Schlesinger is not open to any discourse whatsoever.
ReplyDeleteOn what basis are you speaking on his behalf? Do you know for a fact that this is something is agreeable to?
If you don't want to answer publicly, perhaps you should privately email Rabbi Eidensohn instead.
I have no idea whether he would be amenable to this idea. I was simply responding to Moshe Cohen's suggestion of half the week with the father and half the week with the mother.
ReplyDeleteAnother idea might be every morning and afternoon with the father and every evening and night with the mother.
If you genuinely wish to find out whether there is any possibility for any negotiations at all, you should contact Schlesinger yourself and see whether he is open to any compromise arrangement. I suspect you will get nowhere. You could also contact his closest Rabbis, Rabbi Josef Pardes and Jacob Biderman to see whether they could confirm if he is open to any kind of mediation or not.
ReplyDeletehttp://helpbeth.blogspot.co.il/2014/12/michael-schlesingers-professional.html
http://helpbeth.blogspot.co.il/2014/12/schlesinger-family-business-contact.html
michael.schlesinger@wienkav.at
Without this, any such discussions on visitation and custody compromises on this forum are futile.
Good luck! Please let keep us updated with your progress.