A British madrich asks: What are gedolim? Can they answer all questions? Did Daas Torah originate with Chassidim?

update: April 16, 2015 response from A Prager Daas Torah and Gedolim - a stereotypic chareidi response

update - reply to David - see below

I recently received the following letter and thought it would be of general interest. The letter writer gave permission to publish his thought provoking questions as a guest post. I also thought it interesting in light of a recent discussion I had regarding the non-normative approach to learning and halacha of the Chazon Ish.

 Dear Rabbi Eidensohn,

I am an 18 year old madrich for Ezra in London. In two weeks time (parshas shmini here) a group of us are doing a shabbaton away for year 10 and I came across your book- which is an incredible eye-opener- whilst trying to prepare for a chabura that I need to give them over Shabbos, could I use your book and the sources you present for it?

Can I also ask you some questions?

I would like to give one on the topic of Gedolim and have read the sources that you bring on the topic (pages 275-286) but I still don't feel I have clarity on the issue. The Baal haTanya and Rav Hirsch are obviously against our attitude of addressing all our problems (secular, political...) towards Gedolim today, but do the other sources disagree (except the Igros Moshe)?

Is our concept of "Gedolei hador" a new thing? And is our understanding of "daas Torah" influenced by chasidim?

What do you personally think of the "gedolim culture" today? And are they able to answer us about everything?

Lastly, do you have a written up 'shiur' on the topic that you could send me, as it would provide a solid structure?

Your book is really incredible and thank you very much for giving an email address that I can contact. I appreciate that this is a busy time, feel free to reply/answer my question as you wish.

Good moed,

Gavriel Cohn

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I just received a letter from someone who is member of a well known family of Talmidei chachomim that is clearly part of the establishment - but as he indicates he has the same questions. He gave me permission to post his letter. My  comments are placed after his letter.

Maybe I am naïve, but I struggle with this question and how so many take the extreme opposite views on it.  Neither direction makes sense.  To ask a Talmid Chochom how to fix your washing machine is absurdity.  To minimize the intellect and fund of knowledge of a Talmid Chochom is equally unacceptable.

All that makes sense to me is that certain questions require “Daas Torah”, and these fall within the confines of halacha and those matters that impinge on halacha.  These can involve politics as well as countless others.  There are those that are strictly mundane matters, , and these require only the guidance of someone who possesses the needed information.  I have zero skills in mechanics, so do not offer me to repair your appliances.  Now, just how many rabbonim (call them Gedolim, Talmidei Chachomim, or whatever title suits them) have the expertise to give advice and guidance on poilitics?  Perhaps R’ Meir Shapiro did, so his government service was useful and competent.  How many are good for advising couples with marital problems?  A few might, most do not possess the background or skills.  We could go on and on with the list.  The blind seeking of “Daas Torah”, as well as the rampant and irresponsible offering of advice is nauseating.  Eliminating the concept of “Daas Torah” in matters where Torah direction is needed is equally foolish.

There are those Gedolei Yisroel who became knowledgeable about. A well known example was Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach ZT”L who studied electricity for many hundreds of hours until he became a responsible expert on questions of >.  Watching others “talk through their hats” is disappointing, as they are the ones who ruin it for others

update - reply to David's comment 4/14/15

The remark about my credibility bounced back. I did not make a statement to be “credible”. I shared an opinion, which I believe to be rational, and not stuck in the quicksand of the extremes.

I strongly disagree about the comment that one should always go to rabbonim with marital problems. Virtually all therapists I know who work with couples can attest to their clientele as having a majority history of having been incompetently advised by a Rov (includes Poskim, dayanim, Roshei Yeshivos, Roshei Kollel, and Chosson Teachers). Perhaps they can have a role as first responders, but they need to either get trained, or learn to refer to professionals.

There is much Torah guidance to be offered by Talmidei Chachomim on how to live. They should be offering this to talmidim throughout their formative years of chinuch. When problems occur, the same skills it takes to understand a difficult Rashbo or Reb Chaim are not useful to resolve an interpersonal problem. I am familiar with some gedolim who just “had the knack” for giving guidance. Others try and fail.

The respirator remark was imbecilic. The Rov has the halacha knowledge. He needs to work with the medical information. No one expects him to become a doctor. But to intervene blindly is irresponsible. One exception – if the koach of the Rov is through Ruach Hakodesh. That supersedes all. But do you really know that he is delivering divrei nevuah? Is the Rov truly permitted to claim that his direction is expressly, divinely dictated?

Who is dismissive about asking a Rov an electricity shailoh? We have been privileged to have had a Gadol, R’ Shlomo Zalman ZT”L, who paved the way for poskim to deal with electricity based on knowledge, not conjecture. Word is that the Chazon Ish also invested time with experts in the field, leading to his position that completing a circuit was “boneh”, not previously recognized by the contemporary poskim.

How many teshuvos from Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT”L relied on scientific information brought to him on a myriad of subjects (Rav Eidensohn should have the expertise to share a round figure). It is great to know halacha, but the facts on the ground must be addressed.

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My reply

One of the interesting characteristics of a successful Orthodox Jew - is knowing that statements are made on many different levels and are not to be taken as literally true. Similarly a mature Orthodox Jew needs to know that sometimes he must challenge - either publicly or privately - certain official pronouncements. 

Child abuse is clearly such an issue. The same happened in marriage where the true gedolim had to protest not only the idea of a rosh yeshiva deciding who a bachur married but also to protest that the Shulchan Aruch had been thrown out by certain frum rabbis. 

Similarly  a father who gives up responsiblity for his child's chinuch and stands by while a child is systematically destroyed is another example

So yes it is true that gedolim need to be respected - but one also needs which gadol to ask which question and when to disagree with destructive pronouncements.