. Perhaps the parents should have been more vigilent than to allow a 14 year old girl to accompany a man, They probably wouldn't have had if he had been any man, but this man was a "respect Rabbi" !!!! If we can't trust our Rabbis, who can we trust?
Earlier in the night, before Yarmush shared her story publicly for the first time, Seewald took the stage to introduce her.
“I want to apologize on behalf of those leaders that turned you down,” he said, “and I want to say that if any of those leaders are in this room, I’m going to put the mic down and take a seat for 60 seconds and give you the opportunity to come up here and apologize.”
Congregants whispered to one another. As promised, he took a seat, the microphone left sitting on the nearby table.
An unbearable quiet ensued, accompanied by scattered sounds of creaking chairs, heads turning in anticipation — waiting for something to happen. Nothing did.
Why didn't you post the name of the perpetrator? I found it at Luke Ford.
I am shocked that some of the esteemed Rabbonim of the group that she spoke to did nothing about this. I know 2 personally and they are talmidei chachomim and straight people. I would be very curious to find out what their thinking was.
It's not a question of trust, it's a question of propriety. It's simply not proper for parents to allow a 14-year-old girl to be a "friend" or "helper" to a grown man. From the speech it appears that he was allowed to take her with him, one-on-one, on a regular basis. Just from the standpoint of tznius and propriety, that's a huge no-no.
However, this reflects on the tznius problem of Chabad. The girls are involved with shlichus and are comfortable dealing with men. In other Chareidi groups, it would be considered a major breach of protocol for 14 year old girl to run errands with a man.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have gathered, a largely disproportionate percentage of men accused of sexual abuse issues are from Chabad.
can anyone explain why the rabbis listed and many more will go to all extremes to help a 'supposed Aguna", but will ignore and do nothing to help a woman who is being molested? Is it because there is no money involved in molestation cases or is it just that they cover for each other?
While I believe this girl, I know too little about this case. The fact that this was all dealt with internally, makes me question her veracity. All I'm saying is its probably true but I don't believe her enough to write the guy off. For all I know there was a family feud which led to these accusations. Other than her word, there is no evidence that her story can withstand any scrutiny. Also, a simple Google search will find guy's name
Right! Because Weberman from Satmar did not rape girls, despite the standards of tznius being seemingly kept. I think your response shows not only naivity, but real ill will.
Sure. That's by the way how you also prevent pedophiles who go after boys: you have a strict set of tzznius rules where boys and men can never be alone together. Oh, wait, such tzius rules don't exist. So this means that Hashem wanted homosexual pedophiles to have a better go at boys than heterosexual pedophilles on girls...
Unbelievable how almost each commenter either blames the victim or her parents for their lack of surveillance...... It's the RABBI MOLESTER who is the problem, cause & blame, no one else!!
Can 'DAAS Torah' get info on why the four rabbis were not dealing up front with the MOLESTER? Did they not trust the girl? & why wasn't Debbie Fox more pro-active??
Huh? According to your logic, we should discard seatbelts since seat belts did not protect the passengers on the GermnWings plane from the crash they faced.
You're mistaken. The very first step should be to guard the significant Yichud laws, as well as those of "libo gaas boh".
Second: You did not respond to what Leah Cohn wrote.
@Stanley why should these rabbis or social worker have greater responsibility to contact police for someone who is an adult? Why do you think they have greater responsibility than the family?
If the victim is not going to testify nor her family - there apparently is not case!
Blame can be shared. I in no way blame the victim. She is entirely innocent. I weep for her. But her parents were sadly remiss. I have no doubt they are consumed with guilt for their lapse. They failed their daughter.
Not discussing issue of reporting to police which should have been done by the girl's family -- why didn't Rabbis stay in touch? Check that she was in therapy? Getting proper care?
At Frum follies I would be assassinated before even taking what I say for whatever it is worth. Hopefully, here it is different. Rabbis and bloggers (including those who comment on blogs) are often at two opposite sides of the spectrum, and it might be helpful to understand why. I see two reasons for the difference. 1) There are criminal sex abusers who will continue whenever they can, and there are ordinary people who will fail certain nisyonos, and might even be more vigilant to make sure they don't fail again. I don't know the percentages. Seemingly, many Rabbis see most abusers as falling in the second category while many bloggers see them as the first. It is only natural for a victim to see the first (From the story, it certainly sounds as if in Sima's case it was the first). 2) Perhaps related to the first: There has never been an opportunity to destroy a person as thoroughly and as quickly as it can be done via the internet. Any story such as Sima's should result in righteous indignation, but why do people think they have a right to know the name? Supposing there are some situations in which several Rabbis really have the power to make sure that an abuser does not abuse (if there were ads for tutoring, apparently they did not succeed in this case) do we really need to smear his name and destroy him and his family? If there really would be some way to fully ascertain that he will no longer be able to abuse anyone, do we need to satisfy some blood lust by outing him?
There really has to be some guidelines as to when to go to Rabbonim, when to go to police and perhaps even when to turn to blogs. I would say maybe there should be some "Special Beis DIn" -- but recent history seems to indicate that too is open to misuse of power. When Rabbis do get involved, it would certainly be helpful to remind them that there is a hurt neshama'le who could use some help even if they are otherwise doing what they should to the fullest.
I believe I've figured out why 2 of the rabbonim mentioned didn't seem to do anything when they were presented with her problem.
The were not from Lubavitch and they knew that the problem would be handed over to Lubavitch and they wouldn't have any input. It was in fact handed over to Lubavitch and was mishandled there. They didn't need to involve themselves into Lubavitch's affairs when Lubavitch should have handled it and pushing them on it would only have caused friction.
If only victims and their parents be able to go to the police with the blessing of Rabbis to get justice, instead of living in fear that if they do they will be ostracised!
Furthermore, if the Rabbis cover and protect the abuser in their misconception that they can cure them. In other words they think they can deal with the perpentrator. Will they take responsiblility when the abuser goes onto abuse further, perhaps in another town? Why should an abuser be protected over and above their future victims?
I actually appreciate the positive attributes of Chabad, especially the depth of its chassidus. I made those comments out of sadness, considering the great chassidus Lubavitch once was. Lubavitch really belongs in the Chareidi fold and its level of tzenius should be up to Chareidi standards.
It really amazes me that a young married woman would get up in front of a mixed audience and discuss such sensitive topics, דברים שהצניעות יפה להם. And now it's on youtube for the world to see. This would not happen in any other Chareidi circles.
The coverups seem to generally involve corrupt rabbis or relatives of corrupt rabbis. The aguna cases generally are custody battles involving regular men without any power.
ok..so if this was a guy who got up and said this happened...would you say a 14 year old boy should not regularly accompany an unrealted married man on errands?
I believe it's less of a חשש, but in that case too, I would advise parents to be very wary. I don't think it's healthy for young boys to become "friends" with older men. If you do, you need your head examined.
So foolish for parents to allow a 14-year-old girl to regularly accompany an unrelated, married man on errands. Parents need to be smarter than that.
ReplyDelete. Perhaps the parents should have been more vigilent than to allow a 14 year old girl to accompany a man, They probably wouldn't have had if he had been any man, but this man was a "respect Rabbi" !!!! If we can't trust our Rabbis, who can we trust?
ReplyDeletePlease read this article. I would also like to request this article be quoted in either a new blogpost or an update to this one.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.jewishjournal.com/los_angeles/article/a_restless_pursuit_of_sexual_abusers
Earlier in the night, before Yarmush shared her story publicly for the first time, Seewald took the stage to introduce her.
“I want to apologize on behalf of those leaders that turned you down,” he said, “and I want to say that if any of those leaders are in this room, I’m going to put the mic down and take a seat for 60 seconds and give you the opportunity to come up here and apologize.”
Congregants whispered to one another. As promised, he took a seat, the microphone left sitting on the nearby table.
An unbearable quiet ensued, accompanied by scattered sounds of creaking chairs, heads turning in anticipation — waiting for something to happen. Nothing did.
“This is silence!” Seewald cried from his chair.
Why didn't you post the name of the perpetrator? I found it at Luke Ford.
ReplyDeleteI am shocked that some of the esteemed Rabbonim of the group that she spoke to did nothing about this. I know 2 personally and they are talmidei chachomim and straight people. I would be very curious to find out what their thinking was.
It's not a question of trust, it's a question of propriety. It's simply not proper for parents to allow a 14-year-old girl to be a "friend" or "helper" to a grown man. From the speech it appears that he was allowed to take her with him, one-on-one, on a regular basis. Just from the standpoint of tznius and propriety, that's a huge no-no.
ReplyDeleteSad story.
ReplyDeleteHowever, this reflects on the tznius problem of Chabad. The girls are involved with shlichus and are comfortable dealing with men. In other Chareidi groups, it would be considered a major breach of protocol for 14 year old girl to run errands with a man.
You must never allow your young daughter with a strange man and indeed not only strangers. Who said that Rabbis should be trusted in these matters?
ReplyDeleteBased on Halacha Rabbis do not have a special status.
Someone correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have gathered, a largely disproportionate percentage of men accused of sexual abuse issues are from Chabad.
ReplyDeleteCorrect.
ReplyDeletecan anyone explain why the rabbis listed and many more will go to all extremes to help a 'supposed Aguna", but will ignore and do nothing to help a woman who is being molested? Is it because there is no money involved in molestation cases or is it just that they cover for each other?
ReplyDeleteWere they in the room? If not, how is it "silence?"
ReplyDeleteWhile I believe this girl, I know too little about this case. The fact that this was all dealt with internally, makes me question her veracity. All I'm saying is its probably true but I don't believe her enough to write the guy off. For all I know there was a family feud which led to these accusations. Other than her word, there is no evidence that her story can withstand any scrutiny.
ReplyDeleteAlso, a simple Google search will find guy's name
Of course. It is always the girl's fault when she gets raped. Or her parents'.
ReplyDeleteRight! Because Weberman from Satmar did not rape girls, despite the standards of tznius being seemingly kept. I think your response shows not only naivity, but real ill will.
ReplyDeleteSure. That's by the way how you also prevent pedophiles who go after boys: you have a strict set of tzznius rules where boys and men can never be alone together. Oh, wait, such tzius rules don't exist. So this means that Hashem wanted homosexual pedophiles to have a better go at boys than heterosexual pedophilles on girls...
ReplyDeleteThe comments of the crowd on this blog are so sadly predictible: It's the girl's fault! Of course. How did we not think of it!
ReplyDeleteUnbelievable how almost each commenter either blames the victim or her parents for their lack of surveillance...... It's the RABBI MOLESTER who is the problem, cause & blame, no one else!!
ReplyDeleteCan 'DAAS Torah' get info on why the four rabbis were not dealing up front with the MOLESTER? Did they not trust the girl? & why wasn't Debbie Fox more pro-active??
Huh? According to your logic, we should discard seatbelts since seat belts did not protect the passengers on the GermnWings plane from the crash they faced.
ReplyDeleteYou're mistaken. The very first step should be to guard the significant Yichud laws, as well as those of "libo gaas boh".
Second: You did not respond to what Leah Cohn wrote.
Because Weberman from Satmar did not rape girls
ReplyDeleteHuh? He violated the laws of Yichud, especially considering "libo gaas boh".
I think your response shows ...real ill will.
You're projecting your wares unto others. Take a step back and reread your comments. Ill will
Huh? Where did anyone blame the girl???
ReplyDeleteFor all I know there was a family feud which led to these accusations.
ReplyDeleteBy an 18 year-old girl?
It can clearly be verified if her grades suddenly, and inexplicably dropped. As well as the other symptoms.
@Stanley why should these rabbis or social worker have greater responsibility to contact police for someone who is an adult? Why do you think they have greater responsibility than the family?
ReplyDeleteIf the victim is not going to testify nor her family - there apparently is not case!
Blame can be shared.
ReplyDeleteI in no way blame the victim. She is entirely innocent. I weep for her. But her parents were sadly remiss. I have no doubt they are consumed with guilt for their lapse. They failed their daughter.
Don't be an idiot.
ReplyDeleteYou probably can't help it, but try anyway.
Everything is abuse, huh? Is attacking a commenter also abuse? Does your attack on HJ make you an abuser?
ReplyDeleteRidiculous knee-jerk response.
ReplyDeleteWeberman violated yichud laws in their entirety, by locking himself and the girl in a room. There too the parents were, sadly, remiss.
Said nothing about the girl, dummy.
ReplyDeleteAnd the parents are indeed partially at fault, unfortunately.
Not discussing issue of reporting to police which should have been done by the girl's family -- why didn't Rabbis stay in touch? Check that she was in therapy? Getting proper care?
ReplyDeleteAt Frum follies I would be assassinated before even taking what I say for whatever it is worth. Hopefully, here it is different.
ReplyDeleteRabbis and bloggers (including those who comment on blogs) are often at two opposite sides of the spectrum, and it might be helpful to understand why. I see two reasons for the difference. 1) There are criminal sex abusers who will continue whenever they can, and there are ordinary people who will fail certain nisyonos, and might even be more vigilant to make sure they don't fail again. I don't know the percentages. Seemingly, many Rabbis see most abusers as falling in the second category while many bloggers see them as the first. It is only natural for a victim to see the first (From the story, it certainly sounds as if in Sima's case it was the first).
2) Perhaps related to the first: There has never been an opportunity to destroy a person as thoroughly and as quickly as it can be done via the internet. Any story such as Sima's should result in righteous indignation, but why do people think they have a right to know the name? Supposing there are some situations in which several Rabbis really have the power to make sure that an abuser does not abuse (if there were ads for tutoring, apparently they did not succeed in this case) do we really need to smear his name and destroy him and his family? If there really would be some way to fully ascertain that he will no longer be able to abuse anyone, do we need to satisfy some blood lust by outing him?
There really has to be some guidelines as to when to go to Rabbonim, when to go to police and perhaps even when to turn to blogs. I would say maybe there should be some "Special Beis DIn" -- but recent history seems to indicate that too is open to misuse of power.
When Rabbis do get involved, it would certainly be helpful to remind them that there is a hurt neshama'le who could use some help even if they are otherwise doing what they should to the fullest.
I believe I've figured out why 2 of the rabbonim mentioned didn't seem to do anything when they were presented with her problem.
ReplyDeleteThe were not from Lubavitch and they knew that the problem would be handed over to Lubavitch and they wouldn't have any input. It was in fact handed over to Lubavitch and was mishandled there. They didn't need to involve themselves into Lubavitch's affairs when Lubavitch should have handled it and pushing them on it would only have caused friction.
If only victims and their parents be able to go to the police with the blessing of Rabbis to get justice, instead of living in fear that if they do they will be ostracised!
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, if the Rabbis cover and protect the abuser in their misconception that they can cure them. In other words they think they can deal with the perpentrator. Will they take responsiblility when the abuser goes onto abuse further, perhaps in another town? Why should an abuser be protected over and above their future victims?
I actually appreciate the positive attributes of Chabad, especially the depth of its chassidus. I made those comments out of sadness, considering the great chassidus Lubavitch once was. Lubavitch really belongs in the Chareidi fold and its level of tzenius should be up to Chareidi standards.
ReplyDeleteIt really amazes me that a young married woman would get up in front of a mixed audience and discuss such sensitive topics, דברים שהצניעות יפה להם. And now it's on youtube for the world to see. This would not happen in any other Chareidi circles.
The coverups seem to generally involve corrupt rabbis or relatives of corrupt rabbis. The aguna cases generally are custody battles involving regular men without any power.
ReplyDeleteNote, there are many non-corrupt rabbis.
Now that's a post that adds nothing to the conversation. I'm talking about yours kishkeyum.
ReplyDelete==The fact that this was all dealt with internally, makes me question her veracity.==
ReplyDeleteDon't you know anything about her community. That's generally how it's 'handled' - internally.
Excellent point.
ReplyDeleteThe word takes on a whole different meaning in the era of the eruv rav.
ReplyDeletePlease translate your comment into English
ReplyDeleteNot at all.
ReplyDeleteI'm making a point about the idiocy of his knee-jerk, unthinking response.
But what does your post add?
ok..so if this was a guy who got up and said this happened...would you say a 14 year old boy should not regularly accompany an unrealted married man on errands?
ReplyDeleteI believe it's less of a חשש, but in that case too, I would advise parents to be very wary. I don't think it's healthy for young boys to become "friends" with older men. If you do, you need your head examined.
ReplyDeletehttp://crownheights.info/communal-matters/479906/following-speech-halachic-advisory-board-releases-statement/
ReplyDeletethanks I am making this a separate post
ReplyDelete