update Names added to the film the new version is not as sharp as the original so I have kept both versions.
Published on Feb 22, 2015
The First World Congress (Knessia Gedolah) of the World Agudath Israel the first major gathering of all the different sects of Klal Yisroel which took place in Vienna starting from Elul 3, 5683 / August 15, 1923 and which lasted for ten days.
Without Names
very sad to the saintly Chofetz Chaim with 0 comments, so I am adding a comment
ReplyDeleteDo you see what I see?
ReplyDeleteAre the people walking with more self assurance and confidence then is common today?
Video of minchas eluzur also available online. (At neturei karta website (or youtube, with additions) )
ReplyDeleteI think the word you're looking for is purpose. When people have a clear purpose, it is evidenced in all their mannerisms.
ReplyDeletei heard in the name of the Pachad Yitzhak, R Hutner (told by R' Blachman), that the Chofetz Chaim was not the saint you think , but he was a "chatterbox", and then he wrote the work on Loshion hara. I use the word above as i heard it, and it is not my own free use of terminology.
ReplyDeleteThis is shocking and also interesting. assuming R Blachman is not making it up, it means that revered Gedolim were only human, and then their most creative works were a kind of Tikkun (or compensation ) for their own proclivities.
I also heard that the famous midrash that Moshe Rabbeinu had a middoh of anger, and had to work on it, was attacked and said to be a forgery.
גערעכט ביסט דו
ReplyDeleteכל המוסיף גורע
Everyone always look better in black and white. Watch some old movies.
ReplyDeleteI don't know what Eddie's post said, but I can imagine. Thank you for deleting it.
ReplyDeleteRDE: What's the direct link to the video that has the names?
ReplyDelete@Moe - there is no direct link - the file was uploaded to blogger from my computer
ReplyDeleteThe Chofetz Chaim was a Tzaddik.
ReplyDeleteMoshe Rabbeinu was the greatest human being that ever lived.
So you apparently agree that the medrash about Moshe does exist and calls into question the perfection of Moshe's personality?
The authenticity of that particular medrash is merely an academic debate. Your entire edited post is contradictory -
you are "admitting" precisely what you allege that i say.
In other words, you alelge that i try to bring down the big people to the human level, when in fact you confirm that this was done by a disputed medrash. I never said anything about Moshe , i merely quoted what was written before I was even born. And i am not rejoicing at the medrash - I am simply quoting it, and that it roused opposition.
In any case, the Torah explicitly says that Moshe committed some kind of aveirah which prevented him from entering the Land of Israel. Is the fact that I quote the Torah going to lead you to deny the Torah as well, and become a bible critic?
Finally, i said what I heard from r' Blachman, who was a talmid hachmam muvhak of R' Hutner. If he used improper language or misrepresented what he heard from his rebbe, that is his problem and not mine.
@DT "rather than rejoicing that you found more evidence to prove that they were mere human beings."
ReplyDeleteThis is quite ironic, since the Rabbis always say that judaism is the only religion that admits the faults of its great figures, and that they are mere human beings.
It is Christianity that believes in the perfection of its founders and popes.
That is not to say that the true great leaders, whether Neviim or later Gedolim were just ordinary people.
The rabbis themselves often rejoice when there are stories of human nature occurring amongst Torah figures - becasue the rabbis (at least of previous generations) did not take the Christian-papal view of perfection.
Do you have a link for the video?
ReplyDeleteIs your source of that video (with the names) online somewhere else that you have a link to?
ReplyDelete@Moe - someone edited the file and gave me a copy. It is not posted anywhere else as far as I know.
ReplyDeleteI make a public apology for any comments I have made, whehter in error, or foolishness, which may have denigrated any leaders and Gedolei Torah.
ReplyDeleteI also accept RDe's tochecha, that I should think carefully before making off the cuff remarks, even if i think I am right.
DT has written another comment (in another post), i will reply to that separately.
DT made the following comments - and I agree to a large extent with them, but some need correction:
ReplyDeletehere are the comments
"@DT Eddie - please provide sources for your statements. I am not aware of
anyone saying such statements. While Judaism does not say its leaders are not human - that does not mean "they often rejoice"
Regarding your so called Medrash see the following
http://strangeside.com/moshe-m...
bottom
line Eddie - our great people definitely are human and fallible - but
they also are superior examples of human beings. My objection is your
rejoice in finding faults and show that they are fallible. I cited the
Seridei Aish in terms of the problem attitude towards infallibility and
fallibility - you definitely are not going in his way.
Please cite rabbis that are constantly citing errors and imperfections of rabbis. Your latest description of what Rav Hutner supposedly said - clearly missed the mark in conveying what Rav Hutner was trying to say. It came across as a serious put down - and one which you were pleased to have discovered.
The only source that is vaguely similar to what you
were apparently trying to say is Rav Hirsch. But his explanations are much more balanced than yours and he would never have said what you have
said repeatedly "
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The sources are what i have heard in various shiurim in English, where Judaism is contrasted to Xtianity.
They did not give sources as to where this is said, but i have heard it repeatedly. But if you do want sources, i suggest you open the TeNaCh. A few examples:
Adam - eats the forbidden fruit.
Moses - strikes the rock, and loses his entry to Israel.
Aharon - builds the golden Calf
Aharaon's sons - offer strange fire
The sin of the spies - 10 of the gedolei hador speak negatively of Eretz Yisrael.
David hamelech - see Nathan's Rebuke
Shlomo hamelech - he married nochri wives.
I accept your criticism of the report of what R' Hutner allegedly said. Either I misrepresented what R' Blachman said, or he made too much a tongue and cheek comment.
Regarding the link you provide to the medrash on Moshe , this link refutes your earlier claim that it was rejected on different grounds from those i cited! Your claim was that it was rejected because there was not verified record of the medrash. but the link you provide says:
ReplyDelete"The Klil Tiferes demonstrates the story’s falsity by proving that Moshe was righteous his entire life."
http://strangeside.com/moshe-moses-was-he-born-perfect/
So if we look at the very serious debate as to whether moshe was perfect in every way, there are different opinions, but my original claim on why some rejected the medrash is supported by the Klil Tiferes!
The question - i think is also an important an serious issue, is what do we understand by the term "Tsaddik".
There are different definitions within the rabbinical sources. I will cite a few.
The first version i came across was the Tanya's definition, which is someoen who has never sinned in thought, speech and action. there is some finessing in this definition, which I think they call Tzaddik v'ra - Lo and Tzaddik V'Tov lo. Bottom line, is they envisage a totally righteous and perfect tzaddik with no iota of sin ever, in any way.
The much more simple definition is given by the Rambam, who says someone whose good deeds outweigh their bad ones is a Tzaddik.
My claim is that the Tanya's version is false. Since the greatest figures in the Torah have commited some kind of sin, whether small or great (and David loses his kingdom for his sin), then the tanya's is a new invention, which even outdoes Christianity.
regarding rejoicing - there is something to rejoice, that we do not hold to a neo-Christian view of man. The claim that a Tzaddik is absolutely perfect is somehow a hiddush on christianity. It is precisely this reason that Christianity is such a successful religion. I think this debate was actually carried out between Ramban and Pablo Christiani. it now seems that the Chabad view of the Tzaddik has taken over even the Mitnagdim, and that frum jews nwo hold more like Pablo X than the Ramban.
http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/02/men-suffering-from-israels-harsh.html#comment-1876545236
ReplyDeleteFrom Daas Torah, Rabbi Eidensohn:
@Eddie - please provide sources for your statements. I am not aware of anyone saying such statements. While Judaism does not say its leaders are not human - that does not mean "they often rejoice"
Regarding your so called Medrash see the following
http://strangeside.com/moshe-moses-was-he-born-perfect/
bottom line Eddie - our great people definitely are human and fallible - but they also are superior examples of human beings. My objection is your rejoice in finding faults and show that they are fallible. I cited the Seridei Aish in terms of the problem attitude towards infallibility and fallibility - you definitely are not going in his way.
Please cite rabbis that are constantly citing errors and imperfections of rabbis. Your latest description of what Rav Hutner supposedly said - clearly missed the mark in conveying what Rav Hutner was trying to say. It came across as a serious put down - and one which you were pleased to have discovered.
The only source that is vaguely similar to what you were apparently trying to say is Rav Hirsch. But his explanations are much more balanced than yours and he would never have said what you have said repeatedly
good point, nobody should trust what i say i heard.
ReplyDeleteIn fact R' hutner himself said nobody should believe anything that is quoted from him, unless they hear it themselves.
Rabbi google and or search on youtube
ReplyDeleteSo, it the famous picture of the Chofetz Chaim really him? Does it look the same as he looks on this video?
ReplyDeleteIt does, in my opinion.
ReplyDelete