Reb Ahron is concerned about a number of issues 1) the dispute in Israel between the followers of Rav Shteinman and Rav Auerbach 2) the fact that certain yeshivos and individuals have been destroyed or messed up as a result of this dispute 3) that it is no longer accepted in Israel that gedolim disagree and that it is legitimate to follow the gadol a person wants 4) the attempt of the Aguda and other American rabbis to take sides in the dispute - when traditionally American gedolim have stayed out of Israeli disputes of this nature 5) his health is not optimal and he doesn't want to squander it in dealing with disputes of this type.
(see also Kikar HaShabbat)
דרמה באגודת ישראל בארה"ב: זקן ראשי הישיבות הגאון רבי אהרן שכטר, ראש ישיבת רבינו חיים ברלין וחבר מועצת גדולי התורה, הודיע על פרישתו ממועצת גדולי התורה על רקע הפילוג הליטאי.
לפני כשבועיים התקיימה אסיפת חירום של גדולי התורה בבית ראש הישיבה הגר"א שכטר בפלטבוש בניו יורק, בה הועלתה על ידו דרישה נחרצת להפסיק כל התערבות ולא לתת דריסת רגל בארה"ב לפילוג הליטאי, שכבר גבה מחיר כבד מנשוא בארץ ישראל.
האסיפה התקיימה לאור טענות קשות שהועלו בדבר התערבותה של אגודת ישראל בארה"ב בפילוג הליטאי בישראל.
כידוע, מידי שנה מתקיימת ישיבת 'ירחי כלה' מטעם אגודת ישראל במלון רמדה בירושלים. כשמאות בעלי בתים מגיעים מארה"ב, להשתתף בשיעורי ה'ירחי כלה' מפי גדולי התורה, ראשי ישיבות ומרביצי תורה.
הרבנים משתתפי האסיפה הביעו צער על כך, כי למרות המצב הסבוך, ממשיכה אגודת ישראל לקיים את "ירחי כלה" בירושלים דווקא, כשעל האירוע מעיב צל כבד של מחלוקת וביזוי כבוד התורה.
הגר"א שכטר ציין כי אגודת ישראל באמריקה מאז ומתמיד הייתה מאוחדת ונזהרה מכל שמץ של התערבות במחלוקת. לדבריו היה נחוץ להעביר את ה'ירחי כלה' למיקום גיאוגרפי אחר עד יעבור זעם.
הרבנים ציינו כי בתקופת ייסוד מפלגת "דגל התורה" ע"י הרב שך זצ"ל, הקפידה אגודת ישראל בראשות הרב משה שרר זצ"ל, ובהנחיית הגראמ"מ שך זצ"ל ועמו כל גדולי ישראל שלא לנקוט צד במחלוקת, "באשר כל מהותה של אגודת ישראל היא ליכודם ואחדותם של כל החרדים לדבר ד'".
בשיחה טלפונית שהתקיימה במהלך האסיפה, הבהירו גדולי התורה ליו"ר אגו"י בארה"ב הרב חיים דוד צוויבל כי על אגודת ישראל לסלק את ידם מכל התערבות ונקיטת צד במחלוקת הליטאית, וכי כל פעולה כזאת תכניס את היהדות החרדית בארה"ב לסחרור קלחת המחלוקת המכלה כל חלקה טובה. על כן דרשו הרבנים לבטל את התכנית המקורית של ה'ירחי כלה'.
[...]
לפני כשבועיים התקיימה אסיפת חירום של גדולי התורה בבית ראש הישיבה הגר"א שכטר בפלטבוש בניו יורק, בה הועלתה על ידו דרישה נחרצת להפסיק כל התערבות ולא לתת דריסת רגל בארה"ב לפילוג הליטאי, שכבר גבה מחיר כבד מנשוא בארץ ישראל.
האסיפה התקיימה לאור טענות קשות שהועלו בדבר התערבותה של אגודת ישראל בארה"ב בפילוג הליטאי בישראל.
כידוע, מידי שנה מתקיימת ישיבת 'ירחי כלה' מטעם אגודת ישראל במלון רמדה בירושלים. כשמאות בעלי בתים מגיעים מארה"ב, להשתתף בשיעורי ה'ירחי כלה' מפי גדולי התורה, ראשי ישיבות ומרביצי תורה.
הרבנים משתתפי האסיפה הביעו צער על כך, כי למרות המצב הסבוך, ממשיכה אגודת ישראל לקיים את "ירחי כלה" בירושלים דווקא, כשעל האירוע מעיב צל כבד של מחלוקת וביזוי כבוד התורה.
הגר"א שכטר ציין כי אגודת ישראל באמריקה מאז ומתמיד הייתה מאוחדת ונזהרה מכל שמץ של התערבות במחלוקת. לדבריו היה נחוץ להעביר את ה'ירחי כלה' למיקום גיאוגרפי אחר עד יעבור זעם.
הרבנים ציינו כי בתקופת ייסוד מפלגת "דגל התורה" ע"י הרב שך זצ"ל, הקפידה אגודת ישראל בראשות הרב משה שרר זצ"ל, ובהנחיית הגראמ"מ שך זצ"ל ועמו כל גדולי ישראל שלא לנקוט צד במחלוקת, "באשר כל מהותה של אגודת ישראל היא ליכודם ואחדותם של כל החרדים לדבר ד'".
בשיחה טלפונית שהתקיימה במהלך האסיפה, הבהירו גדולי התורה ליו"ר אגו"י בארה"ב הרב חיים דוד צוויבל כי על אגודת ישראל לסלק את ידם מכל התערבות ונקיטת צד במחלוקת הליטאית, וכי כל פעולה כזאת תכניס את היהדות החרדית בארה"ב לסחרור קלחת המחלוקת המכלה כל חלקה טובה. על כן דרשו הרבנים לבטל את התכנית המקורית של ה'ירחי כלה'.
Is r' shechter still considered a lo tzeis ledin?
ReplyDeleteWhat was Rav Ahron Schechter shlit"A demanding from the American Agudah that went unmet causing his resignation?
ReplyDeleteR' Aharon Rakefet gave a shiur a few years ago on the collapse of Haredi institutions, when the last generationof leaders passed away. This happened in Satmar, and in Ponovezh, and also to some degree in Lubavitch. It has now happened in the Lithuanian degel movement, and finally has occurred to the now insignificant Agudas Yisroel of America.
ReplyDeleteI have a kabbalist perush on this, but it is might be a bit too extreme for some readers here. A hint - is the structure of the letter Shin.
@Eddie you are using the term "collapse" incorrectly Satmar is thriving - so is Ponovitch, Lubavitch etc etc
ReplyDeleteThey might not be the nice neat organizations they once were but they have not collapsed.
Exactly what R. Eidensohn wrote in response here. All of Ponovezh, Satmar and the Litvish world are thriving. Some internal skirmishes, regardless of how heated they may have become, in no way detracts from their tremendous success and boom.
ReplyDeleteI see what you mean. The structure has imploded, in that machloket has increased, and in all these groups you have warring factions. The Degel model of daas torah has collapsed, since they have split.
ReplyDeleteI will go one further - even the Eda is fissile material, and has now more than one "address".
What do you mean by "thriving"? If that is financially, then I am very happy to hear that. It seems to me they no longer have the prestige they once had. Ponovezh used to be a great yeshiva
with great gedolim. Today it is no longer prestigious. same goes with lakewood and all the other Yeshivot in America.
Once upon a time, gedolim were recognized by the names of the seforim they wrote, like the Ohr sameach, the Chofetz Chaim. Today nobody even writes sforim of any note.
Maybe they are thriving in having annual dinners and the odd demonstration, but that is not quality.
@Eddie I think we live in parallel universes
ReplyDeleteThis story stands events on their head. It's a press real ease by the losing side, because the Agudah would not change the status quo to accommodate the machlokes.
ReplyDeletePlease tell us what you think is the real story!
ReplyDeleteDegel HaTorah was itself a break-off from the Agudah -- it was bitter at the time, but later they made peace.
ReplyDeleteI love it how certain people are so מחשיב the Gedolim as long as they are not contemporary.
ReplyDeleteHilarious!
ReplyDeleteAs an aside, I have 2 questions:
1. Is RaP_Commentary the same as Recipients and Publicity?
2. a. If so, what is the meaning of the term "Recipients and Publicity"?
b.If not, then what does is stand for?
Lakewood Yeshiva/BMG has a central control system just like always. Nothing changed in the Chareidi world in this regard. Not there and not almost anywhere else.
ReplyDeleteAs usual, RaP is plentiful with words and very short in substance. Just a long and incoherent rant.
ReplyDeleteMoe Ginsburg said: "Lakewood Yeshiva/BMG has a central control system just like always. Nothing changed in the Chareidi world in this regard. Not there and not almost anywhere else."
ReplyDeleteRaP: Are you blind? Of course there is a "central control system" to every successful organization or movement! But the big difference is that in the past the Yeshiva system and the Chasidic Rebbe systems were organized and functioned Top-Down meaning there were genuinely great men making it happen, while today the system is different because there are no "great men" at the top, just some "managers" from the original founding fathers, while the actual systems are run Bottom-Up as it is the masses of students and followers who flock to be part of the systems (yeshivas and Chasidic dynasties) who are born into very large growing families that make sure their children have the tools to be independent students in the yeshivas. It is democratically driven meaning it's coming from the people and the leaders do no not have to go about acting larger than life to recruit anymore. Look closer and do a better "systems analysis" and don't be so trite!
Chaim said: "Hilarious! As an aside, I have 2 questions: 1. Is RaP_Commentary the same as Recipients and Publicity? 2. a. If so, what is the meaning of the term "Recipients and Publicity"? b.If not, then what does is stand for?"
RaP: Glad you think this is "hilarious" could you specify which part that would be? Yes, "Rap_Commentary" is the same as "Recipients and Publicity" who would always be named "RaP" in short. The reason for the "change" is that this new "DISQUS" system does not allow for such a long name and hence an "abbreviation" was made. The original name "Recipients and Publicity" originated in the first days of this blog when it dealt with the challenges of Leib Tropper and his EJF efforts to issue mass conversions under false pretenses. A long story, but at the start Rabbi Dr. Daniel Eidensohn the blog owner posted that official letters had been sent by the full BADATZ to hundreds of rabbis to ask them not to attend EJF conferences and put an end to the Leib Tropper nuisance. The name "Recipients" was referring to the hundreds of rabbis who got those letters from the BADATZ while the name "Publicity" was a request to publicize the work and efforts of the BADATZ to stop Leib Tropper and his EJF's phony-baloney conversion schemes. As simple as that.
Honesty said: "As usual, RaP is plentiful with words and very short in substance. Just a long and incoherent rant."
RaP: Not sure why you have to resort to insults rather than respond intelligently that just makes one conclude that you probably have trouble with English comprehension and are lazy to digest serious logical facts or worse just not intelligent or tolerant and mature enough for serious discussion. Maybe Twitter or Facebook is more your speed. Would be glad to respond to serious responses though. Thanks.
That is very possible :)
ReplyDeleteRAp_'s analysis is very good.
ReplyDeleteThere are certainly changes and he points out some important facts.
We are coming to a point where many elder American rabbis were born in the USA and Israelis in Israel to some extent (although there was still Aliyah in the 50s, through till today).
The argument applies also to the Sephardic world. Who cares now about Iraq, iran, Yemen, Syria etc. these are all desolate and violent lands.
There is another factor one can add to RaP's comments, and that is whereas in the previous century, there were local communities, today there is an Israel, and Jews, not only Religious Tzionim but moderate Chareidi, secular, hutzniks all feel part of this, regardless of their politics. Only the extreme left atheist/secualrists and the extreme right ultra hareidim are totally dissociated from Israel. The moderate faction of Satmar will rebut the fanatic comments of the extremists wing, and I think this is more than just scoring points in a broiges.
:-)
ReplyDeleteSo RaP commentary -
You've concluded that I..
1) have trouble with English comprehension
2) am lazy to digest serious logical facts
3) am just not intelligent
4) am not tolerant and mature enough for serious discussion.
Neat. You came to these conclusions based upon a two line comment. Are all your conclusions of the same caliber and based upon the same type of evidence? Ahh, now I get it.
So, why did Rabbi Schechter resign. According to you it was due to his weak physical state. Then you add in that he would like to be a monarch, and since he is still able to remain a monarch in his yeshiva and some other areas, he doesn't need a position on the Moetzes anymore. Weird.
Please make up your mind. Is it his weak health or is it his desire to be a monarch? Also, why would he resign with a fight? Why wouldn't he leave on pleasant terms where he would explain his resignation due to his physical frailty?
Whats wrong with seeing it for what it is - he feels that the Moetzes is not functioning/making decisions as it should, so he will not have a part in it. He is possibly also hopeful that this would encourage the Moetzes to be a lot more careful in the future.
Also, please provide data to your assertion that there are more disagreements within our communities now than there were 100 years ago. This is factually incorrect. If anything, things are a bit better now!
Was the Ponevitch Rav a member of the Lithuanian parliament? Was Rav Meir Shapiro a member of the Polish parliament? How many different Jewish factions were there in the Polish parliament? How did Polish Jews vote? Before you begin to create a whole new reality, please do an accurate historical comparison. Thank you.
You're laughably wrong. The reverence in both the Litvish and Chasidic world for their current rabbinical leadership, be it the Rebbes or be it the Roshei Yeshivos, is as strong as it was yesteryear. The yeshivaleit in Lakewood have the same kovod, reverence and follow the orders of Rav Malkiel Kotler zt'l as the students of past decades did for Rav Ahron and Rav Shneur Kotler. The same principle applies in the rest of the Litvish world as well as the Chasidic world.
ReplyDeleteNow I know you're going to write a megila in response, with a few choichy nasty adjectives again denying the above truth, but that does in no way change the fact stated above.
http://matzav.com/photos-moetzes-gedolei-hatorah-of-agudas-yisroel-of-america-hold-meeting-with-participation-of-rav-aharon-schechter#more-114168
ReplyDeleteThis reads like a blind man describing an elephant by touch. Only this blind man has no sense of touch, and it's only a picture of an elephant, printed on a piece of paper.
ReplyDeleteIt looks like Rav Ahron Schechter is currently actively participating on the Moetzes. Either he never resigned or the Moetzes acquiesced to Rav Ahron's demand.
ReplyDeletehttp://thepartialview.blogspot.com/2015/01/agudah-pledge-to-keep-machlokes-in-ey.html
ReplyDeletehttp://somehowfrum.blogspot.com/2015/01/roshyeshiva-resigns-regarding-rift-rav.html
"Update: 01/15/2015
The Partial View is reporting that Shalom has been restored and the resignation has been withdrawn."
Moe Ginsburg said "You're laughably wrong."
ReplyDeleteRaP: Glad that I can make you happy! hahahahaha, funny hey!!!!????
"The reverence in both the Litvish and Chasidic world for their current rabbinical leadership, be it the Rebbes or be it the Roshei Yeshivos, is as strong as it was yesteryear. The yeshivaleit in Lakewood have the same kovod, reverence and follow the orders of Rav Malkiel Kotler
shlit"a as the students of past decades did for Rav Ahron zt'l and Rav Shneur Kotler zt'l. The same principle applies in the rest of the Litvish world as well as the Chasidic world."
RaP: Please stop writing as if you were ghsoting for "Nosson Sherman" from ArtScroll and please get REAL! TODAY, people come to learn in and live in Lakewood for PRACTICAL REASONS, both at BMG and now at all the other yeshivos and communities there, NOT "because" of RMK but because it's the most massive and BEST collection of devoted young lomdei Torah in America that can learn without anyone bothering them without distractions. A lot of frum rich people from all over America and Canada lavishly support their sons and sons in law at BMG. It has become an elitist place if anything, a true "Ivy league" in its own class. To be in Lakewood you need to be able to make a "Lehning" and abide by the dress code and PAY your way. Not much else. No one goes there to learn from RMK or anyone else. When RAK was there it was an impoverished run down place BUT they came to learn from him and be guided and shaped by him. And that is no longer true today. Lakewood is powered by "Charedi baby power" not by Roshei Yeshiva. In fact the place is run by a young sassy CEO, the brash Aron Kotler, (youngest son of RSK and younger brother of RMK) and his methods were learned from Noach Weinberg who took him under his wing at Aish HaTorah, as "un-yeshivish" as it comes!
"Now I know you're going to write a megila in response, with a few choichy nasty adjectives again denying the above truth, but that does in no way change the fact
stated above."
RaP: Nope! And by now everyone knows that you can be pretty nasty yourself, so quit with the "moral high ground" nonsense and stick to logical argumentation and then maybe we can get somewhere. Thanks!
Moe Ginsburg said: "Update: 01/15/2015 The Partial View is reporting that Shalom has been restored and the resignation has been withdrawn."
ReplyDeleteRaP: The resignation may have been withdrawn, but there is no "sholom" because the resignation was a calculated act of machlokes to fight another machlokes by "fighting fire with fire", and it seem to have paid off for RAS for now. We do not know what really happened but it does not look for us "Kremlin watchers"! But it leaves a bitter taste in the mouth and does not bode well. As Shakespeare said "something is rotten in the state of Denmark" and time will tell what it is.
"It looks like Rav Ahron Schechter is currently actively participating on
the Moetzes. Either he never resigned or the Moetzes acquiesced to Rav
Ahron's demand."
Rap: Are you paid to be his spinmeister?? That major media that tracks the Charedi world reported all this is very bad, why are you trying to feed us placebos? Does it make you feel better to act as if nothing is going on when something very serious has just happened and rather than say you don't understand its full import and impact you resort to feeding everyone the same old cool aid as if it was an afternoon outing to have a pleasant cup of tea?
kishkeyum said: "This reads like a blind man describing an elephant by touch. Only this
ReplyDeleteblind man has no sense of touch, and it's only a picture of an elephant,
printed on a piece of paper."
RaP: Another "chuchem" who has nothing to say, is too lazy to respond with logical rebuttals, and reveals an inability to engage in intelligent dialogue and just resorts to stupid insults with way out analogies about "elephants" and "blind people" when he is himself coming across as Dopey, Sneezy and Sleepy rolled into one (with apologies to Snow White's 7 dwarfs). Wake up "Sleepy" and don't be "Dopey and stop with the "Sneezey" routine all over the place with silly comments, rather, be a grown-up, think for yourself, and answer with intelligent points, or just read and and try to stick to the points in front of you. Maybe you will learn something then and will be taken seriously as well.
If you have different ideas or views please feel free to share them. I will try to respond accordingly. If you disagree, please explain why in a clear and logical manner based on facts that we can all assume to know about. Thank you.
The whole megillah is just completely clueless about what chareidi life actually looks like. I've seen and skimmed enough of these obsessive RAP screeds to be wary of being sucked into responding in detail. I'm not about to play Brer Rabbit to your Tar Baby.
ReplyDeletekiskeyum said: "The whole megillah is just completely clueless about what chareidi life
ReplyDeleteactually looks like."
Rap: Really? Care to explain or are you just too tired and would rather sit on the sidelines and "watch the show" making snide remarks from the peanut gallery that makes like those old Muppet Show geezers "Statler and Hilton" look like genuine chachomim?
"I've seen and skimmed enough of these obsessive RAP
screeds to be wary of being sucked into responding in detail. I'm not
about to play Brer Rabbit to your Tar Baby."
RaP: Azoy?! Was I wrong about Tropper & EJF? Was I wrong about Guma Aguiar? Was I wrong about Shavei Israel? Was I wrong about Hersh? Was I wrong about Dodelson? Was I wrong about many other cases dealt with on this blog over the years that I thought through carefully and then responded on this excellent blog the best Torah-true blog in the world may I add, with all its imperfections, there isn't a better one yet, where i have given my serious focused undivided attention the last five years? How dare you refer to my good work here as "screeds" when you have had virtually nothing useful to say just sit around and throw insulting comments around without rolling up your sleeves and do some serious thinking and logical reasoning and yes BLOGGING and then putting your thoughts down on digital cyber-print on this blog in a clear coherent fashion? Time to grow up and act responsibly methinks. Zai Gezunt!!
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Rav Ahron simply made clear how strongly he felt about this issue. That's all this was about. And the other Gedolim agreed to follow his direction considering that.
ReplyDeleteTomorrow will bring different news. Don't worry, you'll find something else to rant about.
Just gonna sit back and watch the show.
ReplyDeleteMoe Ginsburg said: "Rav Ahron simply made clear how strongly he felt about this issue.
ReplyDeleteThat's all this was about. And the other Gedolim agreed to follow his
direction considering that."
RaP: You sound like you are on tranquilizers when you put it that way. RAS is very hard to deal with when he makes up his mind and the others on the Moetzes are in no mood to fight him especially since RAS has the automatic support of RAF to back him up financially all over the place. This was serious stuff! There was nothing "simple" about any of this. RAS was yet again used by unscrupelous people to do their dirty work. Just as in the case of Leib Tropper, a non-Chaim Berliner who skedaddled RAS into getting involved with controversial things like EJF that RAS needed like a hole in the head. And just like the machinations and problems that Hersh was having with his kids and instead of consulting with and relying on mental health professionals that know how to deal with family and child problems he got RAS involved in a family feud that RAS needed like a hole in the head! And just like those "farfrumta" yungeleit who went to tattle-tale to RAS that some sheital macher had some posters of women wearing fancy wigs on their heads in a store near Chaim Berlin and got RAS involved in a petty squabble that made headlines that RAS was involved in fighting a sheital macher of all things that was way below RAS's kavod as a Rosh Yeshiva. And truth be told, there are people in the know who will attest that RAS was not the one who began the machlokes with Rav Shlomo Carlebach the Mashgiach Ruchani either but it was another co-Rosh Yeshiva who set the whole fight up behind the scenes and made RAS into the one to have to face the music and do the dirty work. Now again, it is clearly someone from outside Chaim Berlin, evidently the Israel editor of Rav Shmuel Auerbach's paper HaPeles that comes all the way to Brooklyn to "hak" RAS and get him involved in something he should have stayed out of, simply because RAS is firstly far too weak and limited now and secondly he cannot respond to and and fight the Israeli political wars long-distance from his far-off base in Brooklyn. Does anything think that Rav Shteinman or the Degel HaTorah party will pay any attention to RAS or lose any sleep over what some old weak Rosh Yeshiva in far away Brooklyn really thinks or tries to do! As they say, "a nechtiken tog"!
The bottom line is that the people around RAS are not protecting him from all these dangerous and unscrupulous manipulators with their own agendas who know that RAS is a fighter for the Emes and will stick to his guns once he supports someone or a position.This is a clear failure of the imperial and monarchical system where everyone fears for their lives and resort to being yes-men and then that allows the manipulators to break through and put RAS into positions that in his heyday and when he was at full strength in all ways he would never do and that he never asked to be in and that do not suit his true Gadlus as one of America's greatest Roshei Yeshiva. It is a true shame and may HKB"H protect RAS from further damage and such disgraceful exploitation of his person and powers for their own narrow and destructive ends! May he be left alone to continue in good health for many more years as the Rosh Yeshiva INSIDE Chaim Berlin and stay out of outside politics that he can do nothing about at the end of the day.
Note to RAS's handlers and followers: You are failing in your job! You must speak up and make sure that your ailing and very choshuva Rosh Yeshiva does not get trapped by unscrupulous manipulators no matter how "Torahdik" they may seem or sound! Or else this type of thing will lead to even bigger disasters for all of you CH"V!
@Jblog - you don't need a kal v'chomer when Rav Yosef states his views explicity - as I cited them. Why are you ignoring what he says and relying on conjecture?
ReplyDeleteNext, what is the case that Rav Sternbuch is describing? Is he describing a moredes - a wife who leaves her husband for no objective reason that beis din can establish? That is the case of get on demand that we have been describing.
As I have stated repeated - if the beis din views that the marriage is not good for the wife i.e., abuse etc - then I agree it is immoral to withhold a get.
But that is not the case we have been talking about - Get on Demand - that the assertion was made that it was evil and unJewish to withold a get and that immediately when the wife asks for a get - for any reason - it should be given immediately.
Please reread what he says - if he refuses to not give it out of spite and cruelty. He is clearly not agree with R Brackman - that if a husband does not give a divorce immediately when asked he is cruel and unJewish. That is not Rav Sternbuch's view or Rav Ovadiah Yosef - or any of the other recognized poskim that have been cited
RDE, you posted your comment on the wrong thread.
ReplyDelete(This appears to have accidentally ended up in the wrong spot.)
ReplyDeleteI don't know much, but I actually agree 100% with RAS. We should not be involved with machlokes. We should not be getting involved in a dispute different Roshei Yeshiva have, about the right way to deal with the yeshiva crisis in Israel. We should definitely stick away from israeli politics. Period.
ReplyDeleteAgudah should invite all of the Rabbonim to speak at YK, as all of the rabbonim, mentioned, are probably a notch or ten greater, than most of those on the American Moetzes. (Just a guess, don't ask me how I know).
I do believe that RSA went to be Menachem Avel RCK, and that RALS went to visit RSA when he was in the hospital, even when this whole machlokes is/was going on. This tells me, that the machlokes is more between the Chassidim, than the rabbis themselves.
But hey, I am just a Baal Habbos. What would I know ?
Talk about spinning a story to turn it in its hed!
ReplyDeleteI know you are close to Rav Shternbuch, a Brisker aligned with the Eidah, but I'll say my piece anyway.
It's Rav Schechter who, in his less-than-optimal health, has been taken advantage of by the minions of Nati Grossman and has brought the machlokes to America.
Point 2 is absurd. Rav Shach did that and more. Not to mention that for generations Gedolim have spoken out against yeshivos that inculcated hashksfos they maintained were improper.
Point 3 is equal nonsense. There has frequently been internal disagreement in philosophy. But not public dissent against leadership and practice. Rav Moshe Shmuel Shaipro disagreed with Rav Steinman, but spoke out against the attacks against him and went along with the policy decisions. in our case, two mecihutzafim were fired from a party newspaper because they were mecihutzafim and refused to follow the party's rabbinic leadership. They snookered a Rav Auerbach into making a party to give them a platform. The recordings are out in public. As, by the way, is the public record of Rav Auerbach's yeshiva's letters for it's Talisim to take to the draft centers for deferments- the practice Rav Auerbach supposedly bans and has led to others going to prison.
Rav Shecter has been taken advantage of. Period.
Rav Sternbuch has nothing to do with what I wrote. It is simply a report of what someone who spoke with Reb Aharon told me.
ReplyDeleteI was only noting where your affiliation is in terms of which position you would be more aligned with. And you are completely entitled to that. It was in no way meant to be disparaging. Furthermore, I never meant to imply that Rav Shternbuch had taken any side or was directly involved in this issue.
ReplyDelete"Was it calculated ... or was it impulsive and unjust use of anger and fear tactics (also known as "bullying"..."
ReplyDeleteKlonimous: I find it bizarre that on one hand you expect all to kowtow to the daas torah of your choosing yet you see all sorts of "unjust" political calculation in the acts of RAS. He is accepted as "Daas Torah" by his students. Why do you select which "Daas Torah" is manipulating and which are the Vicars of Hashem.
"And it is not an equal dispute ... Thus it's an open and shut case of a clear Daas Rabbim versus a stubborn Daas Yochid and the Halacha is that we follow the Daas Rabbim and NOT the Daas Yochid in such a situation...
Klonimous: Did it ever cross your mind that it is this dictatorial attitude that people find frightening and bizarre? When did Judaism become the Catholic Church that all opinions are shut down after 1 or 2 great men express their opinion. Historically, people followed their rabbi or Rav. The notion that once the majority of people within your particular camp have a stated opinion it becomes Halacha is peculiar at best. Is there a reinstated Sanhedrin now that I'm unaware of?
"So what? ... Volozhin was closed down .. "
Klonimous: Your flippancy to the closing of a yeshiva by other Torah Jews is saddening. How ca you not be shocked. Self proclaimed Torah Jews shut down another Yeshiva soley because they did not kowtow to their "Daas Torah"
"The rule is that "chayecha kodmin" ...you take care of your own ... But clearly RAS has plenty on his plate... "
Konimous: Your argument that he should not get involved and stick to his own problems is puzzling. He is part of the Moetzes. Part of his job is to get involved in communal matters. I'm sure you have matters to take care of at home. Your chattering on this site really has no or minimal effect. Yet, you still choose to focus some of your time on these issues rather than your personal affairs. Your hypocrisy in these matters points to a bias to your opinion rather than to the truth.
""3) that it is no longer accepted in Israel that gedolim disagree and that it is legitimate to follow the gadol a person wants"
RaP: This is a total non sequitor and has nothing to do with anything. How people view and accept Gedolim anywhere is not something RAS can change or solve by his "macha'os" of resigning and then un-resigning, he just makes it worse by tempestuous behavior."
Why is that a non-sequitur? You clearly felt the need to argue that all daas torah must be subservient to the views of RALS. His Macha clearly flies in the face of that notion and gives courage to those who believe Judaism is not a dicatatorship.
" We do not follow the Daas Yochid ..using extra-judicial threats"
Klonimous: Extra-judicial? Was any part of this debate determined by the Judicial system. The concept of daas rabim is judicial in nature. As far as I'm aware there has been no din torah in regards to how Jew should proceed in this matter. That's excepting, of course, the courthouse of your mind.
"strong-arm measures .. that they are surely not happy to be going against Rav Shteinman's Deios/Daas ... and it is basically the politics of destruction..."
Klonimous: If the Daas Torah was such as you understand, why would they change their minds. That being said the political results you see are just castles built in the sky. Conjecture need not be disproven
"...So then the question is why he had to make this into an international drama ..."
Maybe, just maybe he sees your dictatorial approach to Judaism as to dangerous too ignore.
See some original documents:
ReplyDelete"Was it calculated ... or was it impulsive and unjust use of anger and fear tactics (also known as "bullying"..."
ReplyDeleteKlonimous: I find it bizarre that on one hand you expect all to kowtow to the "daas torah" of your choosing yet you see all sorts of "unjust" political calculation in the acts of RAS. He is accepted as "Daas Torah" by his students. Why do you select which "Daas Torah" is manipulating and which are the Vicars of Hashem?
"And it is not an equal dispute ... Thus it's an open and shut case of a clear Daas Rabbim versus a stubborn Daas Yochid and the Halacha is that we follow the Daas Rabbim and NOT the Daas Yochid in such a situation... "
Klonimous: Did it ever cross your mind that it is this dictatorial attitude that people find frightening and bizarre? When did Judaism become the Catholic Church that all opinions are shut down after 1 or 2 great men express their opinion. Historically, people followed their rabbi or Rav. The notion that once the majority of people within your particular camp have a stated opinion it becomes Halacha is peculiar at best. Is there a reinstated Sanhedrin now that I'm unaware of?
"So what? ... Volozhin was closed down .. "
Klonimous: Your flippancy to the closing of a yeshiva by other Torah Jews is saddening. How can you not be shocked? Torah Jews shut down another Yeshiva solely because they did not kowtow to their "Daas Torah"
"The rule is that "chayecha kodmin" ...you take care of your own ... But clearly RAS has plenty on his plate... "
Konimous: Your argument that he should not get involved and stick to his own problems is puzzling. He is part of the Moetzes. Part of his job is to get involved in communal matters. I'm sure you have matters to take care of at home. Your chattering on this site really has no or minimal effect. Yet, you still choose to focus some of your time on these issues rather than your personal affairs.
""3) that it is no longer accepted in Israel that gedolim disagree and that it is legitimate to follow the gadol a person wants"
RaP: This is a total non sequitor and has nothing to do with anything. How people view and accept Gedolim anywhere is not something RAS can change or solve by his "macha'os" of resigning and then un-resigning, he just makes it worse by tempestuous behavior."
Why is that a non-sequitur? You clearly felt the need to argue that all daas torah must be subservient to the views of RALS. His Macha clearly flies in the face of that notion and gives courage to those who believe Judaism is not a dicatatorship.
" We do not follow the Daas Yochid ...using extra-judicial threats"
Klonimous: Extra-judicial? Was any part of this debate determined by the Judicial system? The concept of daas rabim is judicial in nature. As far as I'm aware there has been no din torah in regards to how Jew should proceed in this matter. That's excepting, of course, the courthouse of your mind.
"strong-arm measures .. that they are surely not happy to be going against Rav Shteinman's Deios/Daas ... and it is basically the politics of destruction..."
Klonimous: If the Daas Torah was such as you understand, why would they change their minds? That being said, the political results you see are just castles built in the sky. Conjecture need not be disproven
"...So then the question is why he had to make this into an international drama ..."
Maybe, just maybe he sees your dictatorial approach to Judaism as to dangerous too ignore.
LOL. You're still fighting the Battle of Waterloo? You're fighting a losing battle. The Torah world has accepted RAS as one of the gedolei hador. Both in EY and in America. You can dig your head deep in the sand and deny this but it won't change the facts one bit. There's virtually no dissent against RAS's status. You can produce all your dusty old documents in digital form and it wont change a thing. Napolean ain't coming back.
ReplyDeleteAnswered well, klonimous.
ReplyDeleteAnd amazingly, you didn't need to resort to humorous condescending drivel to make your point. If RaP Commentary actually felt that he only had clear logical points to make, he wouldn't see the need to run round in circle and mishmash all different topics, which are irrelevant to the topic at hand.
That said, RaP commentary is a smart and astute sociologist. I just think he's wrong here, and his social agenda here is off.
Such foolishness. Is this what you call your "important work on this site?"
ReplyDeleteDo you think we should all make fun of Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Posek HaDor, also?
ReplyDeleteIs Rav Moshe Feinstein like "Napoleon" in your strange eyes?
See this "musty" original Hazmona to RAS & RAF for a Din Torah from Rav Moshe himself, and "choke/joke" on/about it
By the way, on this basis, TODAY, in the here and present, RAS & RAF cannot go to ANY Bais Din even now until this matter is settled.
Sorry, it is still very much on the front burner of the Torah world:
Poor old "Honesty" and Klonimus, they have trouble with reality and think they are dealing with "boy scout leaders" that everyone should worship just because RAS & RAF have by strong-arm tactics managed to establish their "squatter's rights" at the American Aguda & Moetzes & Torah Umesorah and now trying to do that on the international arena, while not so long ago some folks saw it as it is TRULY is, and put it into writing, and were not afraid to blast RAF & RAS for their un-befitting "grobbe" and un-Torahdikke disgusting behavior, basic "mentschlichkeit" that is sadly so lacking today:
ReplyDelete"Very much on the front burner of the Torah world?" ROTFL! I credit you with a terrific sense of humor! RAS is considered from the ziknei gedolei yisroel across the spectrum. In the Litvish world and in the Chasidic world. The gedolim themselves, as you see, defer to RAS. None of the gedolim voice your dissent. It really is that simple. I don't know a whole lot of these ancient disputes but I do know that Rav Dovid Feinstein shlit"a, Rav Moshe zt"l's son, sits on the same august body - the Moetzes - together with Rav Ahron. And I'll certainly take Rav Dovid's esteemed opinion of his colleague over an internet interpretation of some dusty papers very few people even know exist. Maybe you should show them to Rav Dovid Feinstein and tell him to disassociate himself from joining Rav Ahron and the other gedolei yisroel sitting with RAS.
ReplyDeleteI find that letter quite interesting. Thanks for posting it.
ReplyDeleteRav Dovid Feinstein's shlita's endorsement of his esteemed colleague and fellow Moetzes member Rav Ahron Schechter shlita, puts to rest this false notion of any issues between RAS and Rav Moshe zt'l. Rav Dovid endorsement proves there is no such issue between his father and Rav Ahron.
ReplyDeleteDear RaP commentary,
ReplyDeleteIn short order, please explain the relevance of RAS's supposed wrongdoing in 1983 has with the current issue at hand.
Despite the 1983 fiasco, RAS was appointed to the Moetzes. He was never thrown off it either. Obviously, the Moetzes does consider him worthy of being one of their members. In fact, they were that unhappy when he threatened to quit that they correctly caved into his demands. You claiming that he's unworthy of being in the Moetzes has no bearing on that part. He is in.
Your pictures up here are of great historical interest. However, their value to this discussion is about as important as pictures of Rav Moshe Feinstein's sons with your buddy Leib Tropper. That's right. Nada. Zilch.
When was RAS appointed to the Moetzes? Why? Why was he not thrown off? Whatever RaP's reasoning may be, It is clearly not that of the Aguda of America. As such,his opinion of what should happen at the Agudah of AMERICA's yarchei kallah is relevant.
ReplyDeleteBTW, who is this Rabbi Dr. Weiss. I've never heard of him.
Instead of logically justifying your babble, you decide to go ad hominem on RAS. At least you showed your true agenda. So instead of coating your dislike in long incoherent statements, just get out and say you don't like RAS.
ReplyDeletethis is an unrelated qn, but I am curious if any frum Ashkenazim ever have a fleishig breakfast (not referring to Shabbat seudah).
ReplyDeletethank you
SA says a brit millah seudat mitzvah is meat. Chassidim often do it that way.
ReplyDeleteI used to fly from mexico city to ny (often via houston or dallas) where the morning flight kosher meal was roasted chicken. By now, the airlines straightened out, but it wasn't that bad. Don't forget, airline food is delicious, cause its the first hot meal you got in a week. Today, there are plenty of kosher restaurants, with normal service, in mexico city.
that is very interesting Medina-Yam. Is a reason given for the seudat mitzvah being meat?
ReplyDeleteThe reason i asked is that it is very common for Europeans to have meat for breakfast, I won't go into detail, but they have it with eggs. So i was curious if this culinary tradition had been passed to Yidden, and made kosher. (Obviously having salmon or fish is more widespread.)
Many, many Americans (non-Jewish) eat bacon and eggs for breakfast.
ReplyDeleteyes, and many Americans speak English, or other European languages.
ReplyDeleteMoe Ginsburg said "Rav Dovid Feinstein's shlita's endorsement of his esteemed colleague and
ReplyDeletefellow Moetzes member Rav Ahron Schechter shlita, puts to rest this
false notion of any issues between RAS and Rav Moshe zt'l. Rav Dovid
endorsement proves there is no such issue between his father and Rav
Ahron."
RaP: False! You have made this up %100 and it just proves your Chutzpa or worse.You or anyone else should go and check with Rav Dovid Feinstein and hear it from him, then report back here what he says and post it her. Better yet, get it in writing from Rav Dovid Feinstein or from Rav Reuven Feinstein to "confirm" any of the outright LIES you have uttered her.
Have you forgotten that RAS backed RMK to the hilt in the war of the Dodelsons against the Feinsteins. Was that the work of two parties at peace (RAS versus the Feinsteins) or of tow rivals in deep conflict with each.
I would say that Rav Dovid Feinstein was supportive of Rav Shteinman in the current situation and when he heard that RAS had "resigned" he must have jumped for joy to get rid of RAS once and for all!
You are in dreamland, please wake up, or aren't you able to?..so enjoy your dreams since it seems they are lot better for you than reality obviously.
And many Jewish ones do to, and they are the majority of Jews in the world who are assimilated and/or intermarried.
ReplyDeleteNot sure why Eddie has thrown this curve ball into this discussion, I would expect better of him. Maybe he can't take that he is now not the resident "critic" so he wants to make himself noticed by injecting silly trivia (like Woody Alan injecting himself into famous scenes in the "Zelig" movie) because he can't take it when the adults take over nd there is a true Torah perspective on machlokes (if there is such a thing, this post has shown good examples) and would rather just distract everyone with nonsense. Grow up Eddie!
Everyone used to have meat for brissim, not just chassidim. Some yeshva people still do. But in the last few decades, it became common to do fish instead. People (Americans, anyhow) prefer not to become fleishig in the morning. They like their coffee with milk.
ReplyDeleteThe "war between Dodelsons and Feinsteins" barely featured R' Dovid. In fact, he tried on several occasions to get his great-nephew to back down, but without success.
ReplyDeleteWhy are you asking this question here? See Kiddushin 30A
ReplyDeleteMoe, I am not "hallucinating" at all, I am posting original documents to back up my points.
ReplyDeleteSo far you haven't come up with a scintilla of anything besides your silly pontifications based on nothing.
This is driving you insane, so that the "best" you can do is hurl insults and hope that no one notices that you have lost this discussion a long time ago.
If you have nothing to add beyond "narishkeit" and "bobkes" then please move on to another post where you can fake it as some sort of "in house" "ibber-chuchem".
Sorry to have called your bluff but it couldn't have happened to a nicer person.
kishekyum what nonsense and sheer "shtusim" are you uttering?
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Rav Dovid Feinstein would abandon his own brother Rav Reuven Feinstein, or that he has ice running through his veins?
You obviously were not following all the posts and discussions on this blog that posted original letters from Rav Dovid Feinstein, and that he he had to fight for to to make clear that he was not in agreement with the tactics of the scorched-Earth tactics of the Dodelsons in any way, and making it very clear that while he was being fair he was 100% opposed to the tactics of the Dodelsons who were backed up to the hilt by their cousins their family of RMK that was backed up by RAS that allowed by means of some strange "heter" the recourse to the cheap slime papers to publish shmutz about ALL the Feinsteins. Getting the Weisses fired. Trying to destroy ArtScroll, and bury alive Rav Reuven Feinstein and his wife Rebbetzin Sheila Feinstein on a web site run by a paid non-religious feminist. All this was opposed Rav Dovid Feinstein and supported by RAS since he was the lead voice of support in the "heter" to get the gett "ubber alles", with RMK in tow of course (in "monkey see, monkey" fashion) to utterly destroy the entire Feinstein family once and for all, which they nearly succeeded in doing.
Are these the kind of tactics you support that you imagine that Rav Dovid Feinstein would even touch?
Do you think that Rav Dovid Feinstein abandoned his BROTHER Rav Reuven Feinstein in his hour of need and instead went with the calculated ruthless approach of RAS & RMK & Dodelsons??
If so, then it seems that Moe must mean you when he sees someone "hallucinating'!
klonimus, you may not have noticed that this post IS about RAS! How he quit and then un-quit from the American Moetzes. People were puzzled and a discussion ensued. Sorry that the real truth makes you uncomfortable. If you like reading fairy stories about Gedolim there is lots of that genre out there in the world. In this case we are trying to analyze what is going on and give context to it in order to understand who we are dealing with and what is going on.
ReplyDeleteIf it is a "toxic" topic that is not our fault because we have not defied hazmonas, ignored batei din and mocked the written summons from the Gadol HaDor who asked us to come before him for a din Torah too, nor have we done many of the things that RAS has done, such as back back Tropper, back Hersh, back Rav Shmuel Auerbach, etc, all are big questions why and they reveal a pattern of obstructionism with an agenda and a certain type of power-driven personality (disorder?) then that is the reality we must deal with.
It's called "calling a spade a spade" IN English and "not beating around the bush"!
Sorry that you find it hard to stomach RAS's history. We did not "invent" it in any way. If you see any points you wish to dispute please do so and back it up with documentation as I have done. Thanks!
Moe you are just spouting and pontificating words because you can't deal with the reality here. While I have posted serious original background documents that relate to RAS and Rav Moshe Feinstein DIRECTLY and much more you are just freaked out and are spinning your wheels making a fool out of yourself. You call them "musty" and whatnot but you cannot deny their contents and relevance so you hurl your invective at me with other curve balls. Sorry it does not look like anyone is buying it in any way Moe!
ReplyDeleteYou know Moe, I would say that there is a VERY fine line between being a spinmeister and liar. For the spinmeister to be successful and be taken seriously he must try at all times to stick to a narrative of the TRUTH that is helpful to him but NEVER tell outright lies. What you are doing now is making up things and outright telling 100% SHEKER in a do-or-die attempt to derail this discussion.
But sorry Moe, while I have posted what this blog favors and values most of all, mainly ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS, while all you can do is come up with childish insults and you are just producing hot air (that wouldn't even float a one penny balloon one inch off the ground) that is now quiet obvious to all that YOU are tilting in the direction of fantasies i.e. "hallucinating" and spouting random skattershot untruths as if you think you are taking to a group of fifth graders in yeshiva who are being told bubbah meises.
At no point does Rav Dovid Feinstein deny ANY of his father's Pesakim or positions in fact he defends ALL of them 100% and he is known for being the go-to person to ask what his father Rav Moshe Feinstein means or meant to Pasken in ANY situation.
As far as is known Rav Dovid Feinstein has NEVER disavowed or gone against CHAS VESHOLOM his father's ruling about RAS & RAF to come for a Din Torah and he has told many people the extent of his father's sense of disgust at what happened. If you can find any WRITTEN proof to back up your claims please post them ASAP, otherwise as they say in the classics put up, or shut up"!
But given the dangerous world we live in what can Rav Dovid Feinstein do when he is surrounded by the rough and tough RAS & RAF crowd, he has to smile and be polite, he is after all a 100% Mentcsh who does not seek Machlokes like RAS does, and so it's a stand-off, but it's obvious to all, except you on this blog, what is going on.
None is so blind as he who REFUSES to see!
Except that is not what you said. You went on a rampage about what RAS did in this particular instance. I pointed out the various incoherences in your argument. You chose not to or were probably incapable of responding to not even one point I made. Instead you respond by saying that RAS was wrong in the past in regards to not responding to hazmanos. That is totally irrelevant to your original arguments. Unfortunately, I do not have time to teach you basic logic. (And that does not mean typing Latin words that you clearly don't understand.)
ReplyDeleteI do find it quite charming that you attack me for believing "fairy stories". Your hypocrisy is so palpable it is entertaining. I never stated whether I buy into any of the daas torah conceptions. However, it was you who babbled ad nauseum that we must follow daas rabim and not "rebel" rabbis. I wonder if you read your verbal diarrhea or you just type anything just to convince yourself of your agenda. I'm sorry. You just need to learn logical reasoning.
Consequences, consequences, consequences!
ReplyDeleteIn the course of this post and discussion a number of defenders of RAS have tried very hard to dismiss the documentary evidence that pin-points RAS's Achilles heal, namely the fact that RAS has refused to settle Din Torah that he was summoned to multiple times and ignored. Unlike the attempts of those defenders of RAS that "all is well" the fact remains that all is not well for RAS & RAF. Nowhere was this made so clear as in the case when RAS & RAF failed in recent times to open their own Din Torah against the rival Veretsky yeshiva affiliated with the local Landau's Shull in Flatbush, Brooklyn. There was a large corner property next to the Chaim Berlin yeshiva that they assumed would be theirs once it came up for sale. Instead the Veretsky-Landau's people beat them to the punch and put in the winning bid. RAS & RAF tried to stop this sale by TRYING to take the Veretsky-Landau people to Bais Din. The Cahim Berlin people even tried to appeal the case to Rav Elyashiv but were told that "people who do not go t a Din Torah when they are summoned, cannot summon others to a Din Torah" until such time as they settle the original Din Torah against them. And so the Veretsky-Landau people easily won and not just that as a result of their successful case notices were sent out to the major Batei Din to notify them that RAS & RAF are blocked from going to any Bais Din for ANYTHING. In brief they are in automatic Cherem for being Mesarev LedIn & Lo Tzayis Dina. This is a very serious matter, yet nevertheless due to their enormous power at large RAS & RAF still function with near impunity and get their way with their "my way of the highway" routine that most people have no stomach for, as was recently exhibited.
Below are the originals from the To'en who argued against RAS & RAF, note that it is not "musty" or "irrelevant" and note also the original ruling by Rav Moshe Feinstein asking RAS & RAF to come to a Din Torah before him which they have continued to ignore:
If someone ignores beis din then a seruv is issued putting them in cherem until they comply. This did not happen to RAS. Can you explain why? According to your arguments they should be in cherem. And Rav Dovid, Rav Moshe's son, should not be allowed to associate, communicate and certainly work in cooperation - let alone even talk to - RAS who should have been in cherem per your assertions. Yet we clearly see Rav Dovid working with RAS. Furthermore, it was RAS who invited Rav Dovid to join him on the Moetzes. To join the Moetzes means there was consensus by the existing Moetzes members to invite the new one. And Rav Dovid accepted to join and work with Rav Ahron!
ReplyDeleteClearly you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Perhaps there are some technican consequences such as access to beis din for future cases. But Chaim Berlin is a yeshiva and there is a legitimate shitta that a yeshiva (and talmid chochom if I recall the halacha) have the right in certain circumstances to legitimately say they are not subject to beis din. This was the basis of not accepting the beis din case. This is an accepted basis in halacha.
"AND THEY BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE "IT", AND THAT THE WORLD IS "WRONG" IF IT DOES NOT "ACCEPT" THAT!!"
ReplyDeleteThat seems to be the case with many who are not very smart at all, and are not even gedolim.
"they adhere to a philosophy that could be called "divine right of kings" and a sort of "papal infallibility" doctrine"
That is what the Hareidi idea of Daas Torah is all about. It is not however correct. It is true that Lo Tasur applies to when we go to a fully fledged Sanhedrin, with a Kohen Gadol and that they are appointed by a Navi. That is when we go for a judgement. The irony is that, in so far as lo tasur applies to listening to the judgement of a modern gadol, then RAS already rejected this, by not even showing up! How, then, can he claim to uphold any concept of Beit Din?
"The problem is that they are still subject to normative Halacha which they often feel does not relate to them in some instances"
That is often the case with Kabbalists, who in a not too far stretched point of view as that of Sabbetai Zevi, are able to "transcend" normative halacha.
One more idea, but this is my own chiddush.
The entire hareidi structure of authority, seems to me to be at odds with what Rambam says in Hilchot Sanhedrin.
He says there are restrictions as to who can be the Head of the Sanhedrin. for example, it cannot be someoen who is too old, since he might be too strict. (after all, what deos a 100 year old Dayan remember about what it was like to be young?)
The Hareidi philosophy the exact opposite. As you mentioned, R' Yaakov Weinberg was prevented from sitting on the Moetzes, precisely because he was "modern" and open minded, lenient and open to secular studies. he would not have been too out of place in a YU setting.
Even the halachic logic of hareidi poskim, who use detectors to sniff out any trace of leniency are going against the Rambam's interpretation of the Sanhedrin. whereas in the secular materialist world, people brag about their expensive cars, holidays, jewellery etc, in the hareidi world it is the same oneupmanship on humras, on Glatt etc. It is all showing off for the masses.
Rambam also forbids someone without children to head the sanhedrin. It is interesting that in the pilug in question, ie the split in the Israeli Litivsh leadership, the more extremist side is headed by precisely someone who has no children, and is more strict. This is no coincidence.
Rap, you didnt read my question correctly, so your misplaced comments are not meaningful.
ReplyDeleteI said it is a tangent, and i was asking about frum people in particular. That non frum jews eat non kosher is not a question. Sorry to interrupt the flow of your interesting discussion, i was not aiming at hijacking it.
The Seridei Eish, Rav Yechiel Yaakov Weinberg, who was generally considered a meikel, also did not have children.
ReplyDeleteCalm down, willya? You come across like a lunatic.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that Rav Dovid Feinstein would abandon his own brother Rav
Reuven Feinstein, or that he has ice running through his veins?
It has nothing to do with what I think. It has to do with what I know. Which is that R' Dovid was not at all in favor of the war waged by his brother's grandson and son-in-law. [R' Reuven was not too excited about it either.] He tried to get them to see sense, but was forced to step back.
You obviously were not following all the posts and discussions on this
blog that posted original letters from Rav Dovid Feinstein
You're correct that I don't follow every last post on this blog, and especially not your comments, as I've already mentioned. You are far too long-winded for my taste, and too prone to flights of fancy. But I did see the R' Dovid letter (elsewhere I believe). So what? This was a prolonged battle. R' Dovid's efforts in the direction I described came before the letter you mention.
I have no doubt you will soon respond with scans of photos, birth certificates, letters, grocery lists, and endless excursuses (a la "The Making of a Godol," which your comments remind me of). I will not be responding. I know what I know. You can take it or leave it.
Also the Lubavitcher rebbe. However, that is the reasoning that the Rambam brings, even if there are counter-examples.
ReplyDeleteMoe, nice try but sorry, no cigar! This fallacious and misguided "argument" has been heard before but so far has convinced no one but YOU! Rav Moshe Feinstein did not buy it! Nor did Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky, nor did Rav Ruderman, nor did Rav Gifter. Neither did Rav Elyashiv nor Rav Shach and many others others. Do you think that you are smarter and "bigger" than them just as RAS & RAF think that they are?? If so it's a big RACHMONUS on you and on RAS & RAF!!
ReplyDeleteRAS & RAF cannot go to ANY Bais Din, they cannot commence ANY Din Torah about anything any time because they are lo tzayis dina & mesarev ledin, that is serious. Do you need this spelled out in "alef bais" in an ArtScroll book since the written words of none less than Rav Moshe Feinstein are not good enough for you, so then nothing will be! RAS &RAF ignoring the Hazmona of Rav Moshe Feinstein, the Posek HaDor to come to a Din Torah is serious, ask any simpleton that question and see what they say.
If you have read all the recorded reactions from a majority of the Moetses that witnessed what happened, including Rav Yaakov Kaminetsky, Rav Ruderman, Rav Gifter, (and Rav Dovid Cohen and Rav Schwab), and of course Rav Moshe Feinstein ALL of whom said and held NOT like you, and held that RAS & RAF must appear for the Din Torah, is also very serious. You can make your jokes, it's just your own brand of "gallows humor" or worse.
RAS & RAF, are at best a Da'as Yochid versus a solid Da'as Rabbim lined up against them. At worst they are Mordim and Rodfim as Rav Shlomo Carlebach the Mashgiach Ruchani stated they are in regards to him and Rav Moshe Feinstein for sure, and that is VERY serious!
Despite what RAS & RAF imagine, they do not "own" the Agudah or Torah Umesorah, they don't even own the corner next to Chaim Berlin that was handed to Veretsky-Landaus's on a Halachic platter! That is serious.
And RAS &RAF cannot sit in the Agudah alone, making "Yom Tov Far Zich Alein" with a group of Chaim Berlin alumni (Rav Feldman, the Novominsker and they tried to have Rav Yaakov Weinberg but Rav Svei did not allow that) that they imagine they can "control" at will, because the way the world works there needs to be others on it. HKB"H filled the world with different types of people for that very reason if you haven't noticed, and thus Rav Dovid Feinstein has to be brought in simply because he is a world-class Halachist while RAS and the others are not, so that you cannot have body of rabbis making Halachic decisions when none of them are Halachists or Poskim while Rav Dovid Feinstein is.
Do not make the serious error of thinking that Rav Dovid Feinstein's presence on the Moetzes somehow "Kashers" the Halachic wrongdoings of RAS & RAF who stubbornly refuse to bring to closure Dinei Torah SPECIFICALLY against RAS & RAF.
Finally, while you can be free to state your views and those of RAS, as you imagine them to be, however the Torah world at large knows the truth and does not hold from that narrow self-serving point of view.
On the contrary by now one can easily track many of RAS's serious mistakes and errors of judgment, such as his support of Tropper (which hopefully you will not attempt to "justify"); his support for the Dodelsons which was atrocious in the way the Feinsteins (Rav Reuven AND Rav Dovid and their entire family) were attacked and humiliated to get a get for a spoiled brat with rich parents; or his support for Hersh where fellow Moetzes member Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky referred to RAS as a "rotzeach" for supporting the banishment of Hersh's son Isaac to a far off island, see the attached public statement signed by Rav Shmuel Kaminetsky, who was supported by Rav Dovid Feinstein, who opposed RAS 100% even though they both are on the Moetzes, and hopefully you do not support RAS against Rav Moshe Feinstein himself.
kishkeyum said: "Calm down, willya? You come across like a lunatic."
ReplyDeleteRaP: Sure, calling the normal people "crazy" and making the crazy people "normal" is part of the core problem here!
"I have no doubt you will soon respond with scans of photos, birth
certificates, letters, grocery lists, and endless excursuses"
RaP: Funny!
"(a la "The
Making of a Godol," which your comments remind me of)."
RaP: I have never read that book.
"I will not be
responding. I know what I know. You can take it or leave it."
RaP: Whatever. Not sure what this has to do with anything. No one is forcing anyone to do anything here.
RaP, first I'll note that you edited your earlier comment after I had already responded to it.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, you throw out names like candy even though many of the names you cite do not support what you attribute to them. For example you made out of thin air that all of Rav Shach, Rav Eliashev, Rav Kaminetzky, Rav Gifter and Rav Ruderman all took a position against Rav Schechter. Oh, and you really sounded shtark when you falsely claimed that Rav Shmuel c'v called Rav Ahron a rotzeach. These are all fantasies and you cannot back them up. But it gives you talking points so you would make a mighty fine politician. Maybe I'd even vote for you for City Council.
Thirdly, after I pointed out the fallacy of your claims with the cherem issue you edited your earlier comment to state in bold letters about Rav Ahron that "they are in automatic Cherem" because of not accepting the beis din 30 years ago. Well, dear RaP, if "they are in automatic Cherem" why is Rav Dovid Feinstein violating the cherem against RAS and participating with him on the Moetzes? He shouldn't even be talking to him, per the so-called cherem. You are effectively saying Rav Dovid is choosing Rav Ahron over his father Rav Moshe, if we are to accept your version of events and consequences.
Then you make up, for added spice, that Rav Dovid "grimaces" when working with Rav Ahron. I got a good laugh at that one-liner you invented all by yourself! I saw Rav Dovid smiling when talking to some politician, can I assume Rav Dovid is a supporter of his because he smiled? I'll start claiming he always smiles when that guy comes if it'll help my case! (See, I'm learning from you already.)
Actually, they speak non European Spanish..
ReplyDeleteBut many old time european jews still eat their main meal for lunch, meat. And a light dairy meal for dinner. Strictly European custom. Especially yekkes. You will often see this in israel, together with fresh rye bread every morning.
Moe, we are going around in circles. You do not have a problem with me because I am not the creator of RAS's and RAF's problems, they did it to themselves by shooting themselves in the foot and by refusing to get help. I did not make any major edits to my own post, you make it sound like I "re-wrote" things when you are just using that to twist things around because you have no answers only snide remarks.
ReplyDeleteBy now, I have produced more than enough original documents while you only spout hot air or worse, its lies. All you are saying is that "kol 'dealim gavar" as if this was a case of "shnayim ochzin betalis" and the one with the bigger muscles, the scary 900 pound gorilla in the room, "wins"!
True RAS & RAF have bigger muscles bigger bank accounts and bigger cult followings and they are big enough to even have you in their pockets and speak on their behalf in true Stockholm Syndrome fashion.
But not everyone buys that second hand car from you, so quit with your games they are tiresome and by now it is clear that you do not come to this blog with clean hands, but that you have your own agenda and I call on the blog owner to block you as you are obviously not a friend of this blog either!
If you have any problems, please re-read the original letters reproduced one more time below from Rav Shlomo Carlebach the still official Mashgiach Ruchani of Chaim Berlin Yeshiva according to Rav Moshe Feinstein's Pesak. That position was usurped first by the now-deceased Rav Shimon Groner who held on to it for about 30 years and then filled by RAS who his oldest son Mordechai, a position he is not suited for and has failed at misrebly as is well-know, into that empty slot because no one would take the position and was afraid of the "klala" that goes with it since it contravenes Rav Moshe Feinstein's EXPLICIT Pesak!
Feel free to read, parse and tear to shreds the following:
Here they are in full Moe:
ReplyDeleteBoy are you good at just throwing out a bunvh of documents and then misinterpreting all them to allegedly say what you want them to say rather than what they actually say! The documents show some great rabbonim who disagreed with RAS's decision (based on halacha as aforementioned) not to accept the din Torah. These rabbinical emissaries in no way made the personal condemnations you attributed to them.
ReplyDeleteRAS and RAF doesn't have any "problems" as you so eloquently put it. They are doing just fine. RAS is accepted by the Gedolei Yisroel, even though he isn't accepted by you (and I don't chas v'shalom question your great stature as a Godol Yisroel yourself equal to the Gedolei Yisroel on the Moetzes who do fully accept RAS as their great peer).
And to support your case you made up that Rav Groner suffered for many years and had a "slow death". Boy are you good at throwing in stuff you come out with out of thin air! Congratulations on your skill with that. The fact of the matter is, though, aside from Rav Groner having done a wonderful job that he loved and was beloved, his final illness r'l, in fact, was very short and he passed away quickly after diagnosis (with a disease well known to cause a quick mortality r'l).
One thing you are correct about is that I don't have any problem with you. You are incorrect about this matter but I still love you 100% as my sweet Jewish brother. And I always will. Everyone, yourself included, is entitled to be mistaken about some issues.
Have a great and wonderful Shabbos!