Collive By Rabbi Sholom Shuchat - dayan and arbitrator with the Agudas Harabonim - Union of Orthodox Rabbis of the USA & Canada
With the recent news of a measles outbreak in NYC, and the resurgence of
the Anti-Vaccine movement in Crown Heights, it is important to step
back and take a look at our guiding light, the Torah and the Rebbe's
opinion.
Often, during an argument between pro and anti-vaccine, the anti-vaccine proponent will state that studies have found links between vaccines and autism. Said "study" has been debunked countless times by many medical journals, but the claim still lingers among many, specifically among religious Jews who have only jumped on the bandwagon in recent years, leading to the infamous outbreak of mumps a few years ago.
As Lubavitcher Chassidim, we must look at the Rebbe's writings for clear directives regarding what we should do. The following includes a sampling of the Rebbe's directives regarding this matter, leaving no place for doubt or question, and stating clearly what the Halacha is regarding these matters
Often, during an argument between pro and anti-vaccine, the anti-vaccine proponent will state that studies have found links between vaccines and autism. Said "study" has been debunked countless times by many medical journals, but the claim still lingers among many, specifically among religious Jews who have only jumped on the bandwagon in recent years, leading to the infamous outbreak of mumps a few years ago.
As Lubavitcher Chassidim, we must look at the Rebbe's writings for clear directives regarding what we should do. The following includes a sampling of the Rebbe's directives regarding this matter, leaving no place for doubt or question, and stating clearly what the Halacha is regarding these matters
THE REBBE'S VIEW
Regarding obeying doctors, the Rebbe writes the following:
"Surely I need not remind you that the Torah granted “permission to the healer to heal,” and thus this directive is of Torah [and not Rabbinic] origin.
It is not similar to those who mistakenly say that if someone is G-d-fearing, he need not listen to the instructions of a doctor [— when the doctor’s instructions seem to interfere somewhat with his religious conduct—] and may act as he understands. Indeed, the opposite is the case."
Similarly, in another letter, the Rebbe writes:
"I have received a report that allegedly you are not — G-d forbid — obeying the doctor’s instructions. If this report is true, [that you are indeed not obeying the doctor,] then you will surely begin obeying him properly and will do so at the earliest opportunity, particularly as this is an explicit law in Shulchan Aruch — and may you convey glad tidings."
(Healthy in Body, Mind and Spirit - Volume I, Chapter 4)
Regarding obeying doctors, the Rebbe writes the following:
"Surely I need not remind you that the Torah granted “permission to the healer to heal,” and thus this directive is of Torah [and not Rabbinic] origin.
It is not similar to those who mistakenly say that if someone is G-d-fearing, he need not listen to the instructions of a doctor [— when the doctor’s instructions seem to interfere somewhat with his religious conduct—] and may act as he understands. Indeed, the opposite is the case."
Similarly, in another letter, the Rebbe writes:
"I have received a report that allegedly you are not — G-d forbid — obeying the doctor’s instructions. If this report is true, [that you are indeed not obeying the doctor,] then you will surely begin obeying him properly and will do so at the earliest opportunity, particularly as this is an explicit law in Shulchan Aruch — and may you convey glad tidings."
(Healthy in Body, Mind and Spirit - Volume I, Chapter 4)
Regarding vaccinations, the Rebbe's view was clear, as stated in the following letter:
"Regarding your question about inoculations against disease:
I am surprised by your question, since so many individuals from Eretz Yisrael have asked me about this and I have answered them in the affirmative, since the overwhelming majority of individuals do so successfully.
Understandably, if there are inoculations that are produced by various drug-manufacturing companies, you should use the ones whose safety is tried and proven."[...]
"Regarding your question about inoculations against disease:
I am surprised by your question, since so many individuals from Eretz Yisrael have asked me about this and I have answered them in the affirmative, since the overwhelming majority of individuals do so successfully.
Understandably, if there are inoculations that are produced by various drug-manufacturing companies, you should use the ones whose safety is tried and proven."[...]
Rabbi Sholom Shuchat is one of those arrested by the FBI in the sting last year. http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/06/sholom-shuchat-admits-guilt-in-mendel.html
ReplyDeleteAt this point, I'm going to take his arrest into account when deciding whether or not to trust anything he says. He may be innocent of the charges, and should be trusted. Or maybe he's guilty and should not be trusted. So my approach overall will be to not "do business" with him, that is, not to learn from him till the matter is clarified for me.
I assume that the anti-vaccine movement is coming from the ultra anti-science/modern Hareidi quarter. Do these groups use medicines at all, eg anti-biotics etc? And are tehy the same ones who say there is no danger from smoking?
ReplyDeleteWhat's ro believe or not believe? He is just quoting sources.
ReplyDeleteSo, if he could quote you sources justifying breaking Federal law, flouting the accepted rules of arriving and enforcing a Bais Din decision, you would "believe" his learning is correct, and you would go around swinging a club at ephemeral husbands?
ReplyDeleteYou with your chareidi obsession. This is a very popular cause among the vegan/naturist/anti-science crowd. It has nothing to do with religion. But when you have a head like a box of hammers, everything looks like a nail.
ReplyDeletedon't compare apples with oranges.. there is always some fringe group who claims the earth is flat. there are even some crazy gay groups who deny the existence of the AIDS virus.
ReplyDeleteWhat i know is that there are tragically outbreaks of diseases in hareidi schools which is due to their obsession with skipping vaccinations.
I was just making a simple point, which I'll try to do again: If Reuven shows me a book written by Shimon which describes Shimon's viewpoint vis-a-vis a given issue, then I now KNOW what Shimon's viewpoint is, whether Reuven is the holiest Tzaddik or the more dastardly Rasha. Reuven's character, intelligence, clothing, social security no. etc are all irrelevant. The only important thing is whether the BOOK is a trustworthy source of information - which in our case, it is, in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteTo malign Rabbi Sholom Shuchat (whose name I have never heard before) may serve your purposes (whatever they are), but has no bearing on the opinion of the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ"ל on the subject of vaccinations.
What i know is that there are tragically outbreaks of diseases in
ReplyDeletehareidi schools which is due to their obsession with skipping
vaccinations.
Oh, really? Would you care to name a few?
here in London...
ReplyDeleteSuch as?
ReplyDeletethis is one example, however an additional problem is raised in this case - the face to face chavrusa system apparently causes greater spread of disease, even when regular vaccination does take place, so it is a separate - but interesting - discussion
ReplyDeletehttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23113481
Hackney, East London
ReplyDeleteoutbreak of measles 2013
http://forward.com/articles/205801/are-ultra-orthodox-turning-away-from-vaccination/?p=all
"I was just making a simple point, which I'll try to do again: If Reuven shows me a book written by Shimon which describes Shimon's viewpoint vis-a-vis a given issue, then I now KNOW what Shimon's viewpoint is, whether Reuven is the holiest Tzaddik or the most dastardly Rasha. Reuven's character, intelligence, clothing, social security no. etc are all irrelevant. The only important thing is whether the BOOK is a trustworthy source of information - which in our case, it is, in my opinion."
ReplyDeleteRabbi Shochet is teaching Torah. He is judiciously choosing sources to make a Torah point. I think we can agree that it's possible make an illegitimate point using legitimate sources. Now, just how judicious is Rabbi Shochet? Based on his arrest, this is a fair question to ponder.
"To malign Rabbi Sholom Shuchat (whose name I have never heard before) may serve your purposes (whatever they are), but has no bearing on the opinion of the Lubavitcher Rebbe זצ"ל on the subject of vaccinations."
Reb Chaim, please educate yourself before commenting. My first comment has a link. Clicking on that link would have led you to a webpage that indicated that "Sholom Shuchat pleaded guilty in federal court in Newark on Monday to traveling in interstate commerce to commit an act of violence. The crime carries a maximum 20-year prison sentence."
More investigation would have led you to an understanding that his pleading guilty was an admission he had broken U.S. Federal law. Going into the matter further, you would have discovered that he was involved in a process that flouted the accepted rules of arriving at and enforcing a Bais Din decision.
Yet, it can be presumed that Rabbi Shuchat has sources he can present to justify his actions in regard to preparing to attack someone that led to his arrest. Persuasive arguments, I would presume. Arguments that, taken collectively, do not lead a person to keep the Torah.
I took issue with your characterizing Rabbi Shuchat as someone just presenting sources. If we take your approach a step further, someone who's a follower of the Lubavitcher Rebbe might just take these sources and follow through on their implications. Why not? And then the same person could meet Rabbi Shuchat and hear his sources for beating up husbands and also follow through. Why not?
That was the point I was trying to draw out in my last comment.
Please refer to my response to Chaim above ^.
ReplyDeleteFrom the article you cited:
ReplyDeleteOrthodox opposition to vaccines, where it exists, does not appear to be based on religious objections. Some vaccines do include gelatin,which is made from pig tissue. But Jewish law does not ban the
injection of nonkosher meat such as pork, it bans actual consumption of it, according to Rabbi Menachem Genack, who runs the kosher division of
the Orthodox Union.
Instead, ultra-Orthodox anti-vaccine advocates use
language similar to that of secular anti-vaccine activists, such as former Playboy Playmate and talk show host Jenny McCarthy.
As I wrote, it's nothing to do with chareidi ideology.
I suppose it's possible, but I don't buy it. All schoolchildren come into close contact, chavrusa system or no.
ReplyDeleteyou mean it is just to do with laziness or separation from the modern world? Or are you saying that certain minority groups generally have worse healthcare, and thus very frum communities are also minorities, and that is the reason?
ReplyDeleteWhy then, does one prominent RY say it is a hoax? This must reflect some kind of thinking within this environment? Or is he just a hippie in disguise?
Ahh, I see. And what do you think of college campuses and all the very close contacts going on? Come on.
ReplyDelete"I think we can agree that it's possible to make an illegitimate point using legitimate sources."
ReplyDeleteRabbi Shuchat, however, made no points at all! He merely provided 2 quotes verbatim from Sefarim of the Rebbe which are readily available. There is no room for distortion, misinterpretation etc. here. If an Apikoros photocopies a Sefer relevant to what I am learning about, should I not trust the photocopied page?
This is getting tedious.
This is getting tedious.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, this is true.
I think we can appreciate Mr. Orlow's point as to the credentials and credibility of the mentioned person as a "respected rabbi and dayan".
I also think that at this point, after the credibility question has been raised, it is worthwhile to now discuss the actual topic at hand: immunizations.
Are there differences between immunizations? What about the chicken pox shot - does it endanger future infants under two weeks old? What is the data on this?
The prominent rosh yeshiva you mention has a wife who is a fanatical health nut. What he says on this topic no doubt reflects her view. This is well-known among those who actually know anything about the chareidi world, although not among obsessives who get their chareidi information from the internet.
ReplyDeleteTo repeat myself, this has nothing to do with separation from the modern world. It derives from the current vegan/naturist/anti-science zeitgeist.
"As Lubavitcher Chassidim, we must look at the Rebbe's writings for clear directives regarding what we should do. The following includes a sampling of the Rebbe's directives regarding this matter, leaving no place for doubt or question, and stating clearly what the Halacha is regarding these matters."
ReplyDeleteA "sampling". Rabbi Shuchat made choices what to include, and what not to include. How sound were these choices? Could other choices, or a more complete survey, present another picture?
Since the search for truth here does not fascinate you, may I suggest that you we switch our venue to an online game website? We can can play an exciting video game while we debate, which may overcome the tedium of our discussion.
They once asked R' Chaim Volozhiner whether they should permit a certain
ReplyDeleteBaal Darshan to have a few words in the main Shul on Shabbos, since he only
quotes from sources like the Talmud, Midroshim etc. R' Chaim replied, " Yo Yo,
es iz takke Kosher fleish, obber es kocht zich in a Treifenem tepel!" ved"al
There's a link to a video in this post that may be of interest:
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2014/10/observations-about-salk-polio-vaccine.html
Tedium Alert to Chaim and Honesty: If you are operating heavy machinery, exercise caution when reading my comment there, as it may lead to inattentiveness.
JO,
ReplyDeleteI agree that sometimes a body of work - be it the Gemara, Shulchan Aruch, Rambam etc. - may contain seemingly contradictory statements, and in order to clarify the author's true position it will be necessary to reconcile these statements to arrive at a more nuanced opinion - one which a cursory glance at any one (or two) of the sources would not provide. It is for this reason that the Gemara castigates those who pasken based on Mishnayos alone, calling them מבלי עולם. How does the person know that there isn't a different Mishna which may contradict or at least qualify this one? You can only really know Hilchos Shabbos if you've learnt the whole lot - I get that.
The question is - does one need to be חושש that in any given body of writing, that is the case? The answer must surely be decided on a case-to-case basis. I think that in a work that is not known to contain any major contradictions, such as the writings of the Rebbe (please correct me if I'm wrong), there is no need to worry that we are not seeing the whole picture.
Furthermore, we must bear in mind that there is a difference between a Halachic work - in which the author may choose to be more concise in some places and rely on the fact that the reader will discover that elsewhere he has elaborated on the subject - and collected letters (as is the case here), each of which is a "standalone" expression of opinion and was only ever meant to be read by itself. If the Rebbe was happy for the recipient to read just that letter and was not concerned that he would not get "the whole picture", then why should >I be concerned?
You seem knowledgeable about Lubavitch Chasidism. I'm not knowledgeable. So I concede to you, if you feel confident that Rabbi Shuchat has made an honest presentation on the subject of vaccinations.
ReplyDeleteBut...
...if you have a friend who's wife is seeking a Get and who has gone to Rabbi Shuchat for relief, then please advise your friend to take appropriate precautions to avoid a possible imminent threat to his body and his reputation.
Thank you for the link. I was only able to see the trailer, as the video has been removed due to a copyright issue.
ReplyDeleteI do think I should clarify. I respect you Mr. Orlow. I think you've got a nice sense of humor and are a good guy. I also agree to disagree with you on certain issues.
One thing this quote does demonstrate is the wisdom of the Lubavitcher Rebbe as a baal eitzah, especially as compared to leaders of our generation. I'm not minimizing the messianic frenzy he caused in his later years, but it's worthwhile to remember what a great man he was otherwise.
ReplyDeleteOk.
ReplyDeleteThanks for the heads up!
ReplyDeleteINTERESTING https://www.boughtmovie.net/free-viewing/thank-you.php
ReplyDeleteyou should use the ones whose safety is
ReplyDeletetried and proven."
But what would the rabbi say about most of them today, that are NOT safe ?
CDC admits they covered up MMR autism link for over 10 years
http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/
10 years of measles NOT even 10 deaths , but over 100 deaths from MMR
as per CDC & HRSA.gov
http://www.naturalnews.com/048573_measles_deaths_MMR_vaccine_immunization_dangers.html
Have you forgotten the More doctors smoke camel add. in medical publications 1930 to 1950 ?
ReplyDeleteYou can by most Doctors for the right price, where do you think they become so rich from
@Moishe - please use respected authoritative sources
ReplyDeleteyour claim has been shown to be false
http://www.snopes.com/medical/disease/cdcwhistleblower.asp
Leading Vaccine Doctor States Cancer Linked to Polio Vaccine:
ReplyDeletehttp://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2011/02/18/leading-vaccine-doctor-states-cancer-linked-to-polio-vaccine.aspx
Please read the refutation of this nonsense
ReplyDeletehttp://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2013/09/11/a-zombie-meme-rises-from-the-grave-maurice-hilleman-the-polio-vaccine-sv40-and-cancer/
Snopes is lying, unless you area da'as tora with an aleph
ReplyDeleteHere is the lawfirm press release
http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-27-2014-press-release-statement-of-william-w-thompson-ph-d-regarding-the-2004-article-examining-the-possibility-of-a-relationship-between-mmr-vaccine-and-autism/
http://www.c-span.org/video/?327309-1/us-house-morning-hour&live=
Breaking News: Congressman Posey On House Floor CDC Authors of 2004 MMR Paper Destroyed Documents
Breaking News (at 1hr 02mins 25seconds on the link):
Because you are moderating my posts, I am unable to retrieve them.
ReplyDeleteI followed the link on Non-Hodgkins Lymphoma, and it was somehow corrupted. Here is the correct link:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11897278
Lancet. 2002 Mar 9;359(9309):817-23.
Association between simian virus 40 and non-Hodgkin lymphoma.
Vilchez RA1, Madden CR, Kozinetz CA, Halvorson SJ, White ZS, Jorgensen JL, Finch CJ, Butel JS.
Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Non-Hodgkin lymphoma has increased in frequency over the past 30 years, and is a common cancer in HIV-1-infected patients. Although no definite risk factors have emerged, a viral cause has been postulated. Polyomaviruses are known to infect human beings and to induce tumours in laboratory animals. We aimed to identify which one of the three polyomaviruses able to infect human beings (simian virus 40 [SV40], JC virus, and BK virus) was associated with non-Hodgkin lymphoma.
METHODS:
We analysed systemic non-Hodgkin lymphoma from 76 HIV-1-infected and 78 HIV-1-uninfected patients, and non-malignant lymphoid samples from 79 HIV-1-positive and 107 HIV-1-negative patients without tumours; 54 colon and breast carcinoma samples served as cancer controls. We used PCR followed by Southern blot hybridisation and DNA sequence analysis to detect DNAs of polyomaviruses and herpesviruses.
FINDINGS:
Polyomavirus T antigen sequences, all of which were SV40-specific, were detected in 64 (42%) of 154 non-Hodgkin lymphomas, none of 186 non-malignant lymphoid samples, and none of 54 control cancers. This difference was similar for HIV-1-infected patients and HIV-1-uninfected patients alike. Few tumours were positive for both SV40 and Epstein-Barr virus. Human herpesvirus type 8 was not detected. SV40 sequences were found most frequently in diffuse large B-cell and follicular-type lymphomas.
INTERPRETATION:
SV40 is significantly associated with some types of non-Hodgkin lymphoma. These results add lymphomas to the types of human cancers associated with SV40.
BTW, I sent you three messages. One of them contained a number of links, and apparently found its way into your spam filter. I urge you to retrieve it, because the links are into the scientific and medical literature, or to reputable blogs like www.virology.ws and others by PhDs and Professors.
ReplyDeleteNatPhilosophyer - your messages didn't go to spam - I simply make Shabbos in israel and sometimes don't attend to my blog for hours at a time
ReplyDeleteI realized you were probably observing Shabbos and that's why you hadn't gotten to the other ones, but my Disqus account said that one of them had been classified as Spam. Apparently it was mistaken.
ReplyDeleteNatphilosopher - you are correct I did find the first one in spam - but the others were not moderated because of Shabbos
ReplyDeleteIt occurred to me that another thing one might notice in the link I posted before
ReplyDeletehttp://www.virology.ws/2010/03/29/deep-sequencing-reveals-viral-vaccine-contaminants/
is the following quote:
"How did a porcine virus contaminate Rotarix, which is produced in Vero cells? The answer is not known, but the authors speculate that the culprit might be porcine trypsin, which is used during the propagation of Vero cells. Over 100,000 porcine circovirus 1 DNA molecules were detected in each vaccine dose, fully 10 times higher than the amount of rotavirus present. However, it’s not known if the porcine circovirus present is infectious."
The manufacturers don't have to tell you how they are growing the vaccines-- when peanut allergies started ramping up, the government removed the requirement for letting you know whether they are growing things in media like peanut oil, which they apparently were before and presumably are still.
But it does seem like they are using pigs to grow at least some of the vaccines, and that remnants of pig remain in what is injected.
Incidentally, another contaminant which seems to remain in many vaccines is human fetal DNA.
http://www.soundchoice.org/scpiJournalPubHealthEpidem092014.pdf
Forget all that. Just remember that when the Rebbe,z"l, had his stroke, his Chasidim were willing to kidnap a famous neurologist to ensure the best doctors were looking after him.
ReplyDelete