I just posted a video of Rav Gedalia Schwartz who heads the special Chicago Beis Din to deal with sexual abuse. He clearly asserts that if there is reasonable basis that sexual abuse is happening there is no prohibition of Mesira or Lashon Harah and one should report the perpetrator to the police.
What is a special beis din for dealing
with child abuse? Below is a description from Rav Tzi Gartner (one of the dayanim
of the Israeli Beis Din who is a defendant in a RICO claim initiated by the Chicago Beis Din) in the groundbreaking Yeshurun volume 15 which
dealt with child abuse. He says that the beis din's purpose is to investigate
charges and to decide whether the police should be contacted!
The
Chicago Beis Din claims to have done a thorough investigation and
concluded that Meisels has done every sexual transgression - so why
haven't they contacted the police? Another puzzle is why the Chicago Beis Din is being touted as the champion of the victims by child abuse advocates such as David Morris and Yerachmiel Lopin. These advocates are the same people who have strongly protested against
rabbinic cover ups and dealing with the problem in house as they are
condemning the Israeli Beis Din now
What is the reason for this apparent hypocrisy? Why are these advocates so excited that the Chicago Beis Din - only several months after they concluded that Meisels was a dangerous sexual predator - advised girls not to go to his seminaries even though he is no longer there!
Why is this case different? David Morris did write a post that states that the students should have been warned by the seminaries and the police involved within a week of them finding out the conclusions of the Chicago Beis Din. Nevertheless he still hasn't condemned the CBD itself for delaying informing the students or police several months after concluding that he was dangerous. Why don't the abuse victim advocates condemn the Chicago Beis Din for a cover up and for intervening in a matter best left to the police and professionals?
שלכן
אין ספק שרשאים וחייבים לדווח, ובתנאי שהעביד נבדק כראוי על ידי רבנים מובהקים ואנשי
מקצוע, ונמצא שדברים בגוו .
ולדוגמה,
בכמה ערים בארה"ב הקימה הקהילה בית דין מיוחד המטפל בענינים אלו, 4 ולאחר בדיקת
ואימות העביד לפי ראות עיניהם, ולעת הצורך' הם מתירים את הפנייה לרשויות. 5 באלול תשס"ד
פורסם הנחיות מטעם ועד ראשי הישיבות של "תורה ומסורה" 6 על דרכי הפעולה בבית
ספריהם, שבמקרה ומתעורר חשש וחשד אצל אחד המורים על מאן דהו שמתעולל בתלמיד, ידווח
המורה על כך למנהל בית הספר, והמנהל יברר הענין, תוך התייעצות עם מורה הרואה או רב
מוסמך בעל נסוין בענינים אלו, וכן עם איש מקצוע. ובמדה ויתאמת שיש רגלים לדבר, על המנהל
לדווח הלאה לרשויות, וכנדרש בחוק.
this is a clear and obvious question, among all the other questions. Their lawsuit is about refund of deposits for students who not attended any Pninim seminary, but is based on information about past iniquities about Meisels. If they have enough information to use it as a basis for civil suit and a RICO charge, why isn't it sufficient to go to the police?
ReplyDeleteRDE, why don't you call the CBD and ask them?
Once again, rabbi, your attacks are paper thin.
ReplyDeleteReporting to law enforcement requires the consent of the accusers. That has been the main issue throughout the entire CSA discussion. Because of the 'shonda' factor, the community is terrified to report. Parents have foregone bringing to justice perpetrators -- who victimized their own children! -- because of fears of the shidduch.
Even Rabbi Gartner's words were very specific:
a) Beis Din 'allows' reporting to police...meaning the victim must do so
b) In an educational setting (i.e., with minors) he seems to be indicating that the הנהלה are mandated to report if they become aware of it. That is, they are to act as complainants.
Because the seminary girls were of age, it is likely they need to be the complainants. And how many BY girls would you expect are ready to do that?
I find your attempts at undermining CBD to be beneath contempt. This one stooped really low.
Daniel
This entire line of criticism is truly absurd. If it wasn't for the CBD, then no one would have known about this or done anything. Finally a beit din is standing up and saying enough is enough, and you have decided to attack them?!?!
ReplyDeleteעולם הפוך ראיתי...
So PP, if this was your daughter, would you wait for Bais Din to call the police, or would you?
ReplyDelete@Daniel you are simply attacking me and not answering the question. There is no indication that the victims were encouraged to go to the police. No is no indication that the police were contacted to see whther there was such a massive fraud as the Chicago Beis Din is contending in the RICO claim.
ReplyDeleteYour comment is absurd. Why would any Beis Din publicize their attempts to get the parents to report to the police?? To make themselves look good? To make the parents look bad?
ReplyDeleteWhy not just take your question to the obvious conclusion: the parents are untrustworthy! Why would they go to Beis Din, when they should have gone to the police? That's the real question, right? What standing does Bais Din have to act as complainants? None. So let's blame the parents.
So to respond, not only is your logic faulty, but yes, I'm attacking you because you should know better. You've been dealing with these issues for long enough.
When the Takana forum publicized the problematic behavior of R. Moti Elon, his close supporters also tried every argument imaginable to weaken their standing. To anyone not nogeia badavar, these claims were flimsy at best, and damaging at worst. Unfortunately, you seem to be reacting the same way towards the CBD, which was courageous enough to act in the way they did despite the predictable reactions.
ReplyDeleteThe sad truth is that many victims in our community are afraid to file a police complaint against sexual abusers because of the negative implications this can have for their standing, shidduchim etc. If we stop covering up for the abusers and start supporting the victims, then this will iy"H change one day.
Very well said!
ReplyDeleteUnless,of course, there was a very different motive involved. They may have seen it is "making an example" out of him. Who knows?
A rich, powerful lawyer who has done much good can also have influence. Think about the story of Kamtza and Bar Kamtza. Who attended that party and allowed certain things to happen? Why?
The reason why David Morris isn't attacking CBD, is because he has personal issues with the IBD. Attacking CBD is almost defending IBD and Rabbi Malinowitz, and that is something David Morris could never do.
ReplyDeleteI would guess that the answer to the question is that the offenses occurred in Israel and the victims are in America. Additionally, the girls were probably past the age of consent.
ReplyDeleteI think the answer to your question is obvious. You are criticizing
ReplyDeletethe CBD for things you presume that they have failed to do. This is an
allegation that is far more speculative and would require a real
investigation to substantiate. How do you know they did not advise
people in Israel to go to the police? How do you know that was a
feasible option for an American Beis Din?
On the other hand, the
criticism of the IBD is for what they actually did. The day after the
CBD advised not going to the seminaries, the IBD announces the
seminaries have been sold and all is well. Then a letter is released
from one of the seminaries that advises its girls to keep quiet. These
are two things that actually happened - not merely accusations of what
did not happen.
The answer is fairly obvious. First, CBD would not tell people to go to the police in the US for any crime like this committed on foreign soil. Second, even with respect to telling them to go to Israeli police, you go to the police when a crime has been committed. There has been no indication of rape or forced touching. Everything written thus far has been about improper yichud, late night car rides, even seduction (which implies consent). Even if Meisels had actual sex with these girls, as long as it was consensual (and these girls were over 18), there is nothing the police would do for a person in power taking advantage of that power. As improper as that may be, it is not a crime.
ReplyDeleteEven assuming there was non-consensual touching of someone over 18, it is likely in that case that a Rov would not tell someone to go to the police. Not to protect the molester but to protect the victim. Police are likely not going to do much in he said/she said situation when there is no serious crime. Touching a lady's body without her consent is wrong and disgusting but w/o proof it won't go far and all that's left is the victim will have gone public, harmed her image and have very little to show for it.
P.S. the blog author has still not answered the basic question of why the parents have to go to the trouble and expense of going to a beis din to get their deposit money back when it is clear that the seminary they signed up for is not what they are getting now (no accreditation and much worse reputation). The blog author can hide behind his go to beis din and get their psak - but it is clear that things have changed and it is certainly not "yosher," even if it is not a mekach tos, to make them pay for something that is not what they bought.
"The
ReplyDeleteChicago Beis Din claims to have done a thorough investigation and
concluded that Meisels has done every sexual transgression"
So they say. But he was accused by them of negiah only, and that's all he admitted to, The inflation of the accusations began after they decided to punish him. The punishment has several components: taking the seminaries away from him, and failing that, destroying them, the objective being to leave him without financial resources. Another part of the punishment was publicizing the abuse, which they had originally agreed not to do. The shaming was intensified by inflating the accusations.
@Ben P it has been repeated claimed in the name of Rav Feurst that Meisels has commited every sexual sin in the book. I assume that include rape. Insiders have told me that the CBD is claiming that Meisels raped at least 40 girls. They are claiming forced contact of a sexual nature. So on this pont you are clearly wrong.
ReplyDeleteIt is illegal for a teacher/rabbi to have sexual contact with students - even consenusal in Israel. That is also true of parts of America. That is the issue of fiduciary relationships.
Furthermore the CBD has engineered the RICO claim which goes far beyond the claim that Meisels forcibly shook a students hand or gave them a hug to comfort them. They are claiming the seminaries were nothing but phoney schools with the object of defrauding parents of money and providing girls for Meisels pleasure. If they are willing to claim this for the sake of getting their deposits back - I am sure they can make such claims to protect other girls from Meisels and his alleged evil schemes. So you are wrong again. The CBD has no problem of exposing Meisels for a civil suit - why not for a criminal one?
Regarding your p.s. - I have asked a number of poskim and they all respond the same way. You need to go to a beis din to resolve monetary conflicts. I took the trouble of asking - have you? Or do you consider yourself such a big talmid chachom you don't need to ask?
"The CBD has no problem of exposing Meisels for a civil suit - why not for a criminal one?"
ReplyDeleteThe wild charges are invented. The RICO case is not real, it's a pressure tactic, so they'll say anything. There's an open lie there in item #51, which says that Meisels signed an arbitration agreement with them. But bringing false criminal charges -- that's anotehr matter. That can land them in jail. So they haven't done it.
If only six out if twenty something parents agree to join a (lucrative) lawsuit, it casts doubt on either the whole case or b: it probably does not extend past touching / hugging. Technicaly illegal in the US (don't know about israel) for under 18, but go make a police report about it. They'll probably laugh you out of the police station. Fly out to israel to make a report. Fuggefaboutit. They know you won't come back to testify.
ReplyDeleteNevertheless, the CBD has an obligation to go through the motions.
Your comment is absurd.
ReplyDeleteLOL! If only we would actually consider our own accusations of others. What Rabbi Eidensohn said is logical on the money (no pun intended, in this sad saga). Your comment - personal attacks notwithstanding - doesn't justify nor explain anything.
Allow me to address your circular arguments.
The CBD did not report because of the "shondo" element. Yet, they had no problem creating this blogsphere detectable just two months later. What changed? They were halachicly incapable of accepting any more testimony during those two months nor to come to new rulings.
Did the "shonda" and shidduch aspect disappear in July?
Why didn't the B"D contact the police themselves. Please don't give me a legal "answer" you aren't sure about. Please give me an answer that is indeed true.
I find your attempts at undermining CBD to be beneath contempt. This one stooped really low.
It's not the way I usually speak - But I'll use this quote to answer you.
According to David Morris, in Israel consensual behaviors is still illegal in an authority/subordinate abuse.
ReplyDeleteI don't think that the phrase (attributed to the CBD) of "kol davar ha'assur" implies rape. Either way, there is certainly no physical evidence, and I don't think it is a legitimate question to ask why no one has gotten on the plane to fly to Israel to lodge a complaint. Even if it is against the law in Israel, it is still not a standard crime of sexual abuse, more of a misappropriation of a balance of power.
ReplyDeleteAs i said above, the RICO charge is bogus, intended to apply pressure. They wouldn't dare tell the same tall tales to create a criminal investigation, b/c it would land them all in jail.
ReplyDeleteIf anyone has evidence or even claims from even 1 girl and certainly 40 girls of actual rape, by which I mean, very clearly not seduction, but nonconsensual (1) sexual intercourse, (2) oral sex or (3) motzei zerah levatalah, which are all crimes then they should all RUN to the police and what is being done here is not enough. A man who can rape 40 people is a monster, a rodef and belongs in jail to protect society and I am quite sure that both CBD and IBD would report that themselves to the police in any country. Being that neither of them have done so, I think your assumptions and contacts are wrong or misinformed or have a much different definition of rape. If it is forced on some other nature then what I wrote before stands.
ReplyDeleteYou are purposefully distorting the RICO claim and are trying to create confusion between that claim and the sexual misconduct. They are not suing for the sexual misconduct as NONE of these particular plaintiffs can. These are all people trying to get their money back, none of their daughters were abused by the alleged monster as they haven't gone to school yet. In fact this lawsuit is probably the only way they can get their money back right now. Who says they can sue any other way right now even for regular fraud or misrepresentation as the school year hasn't started and the case may not be ripe yet? The RICO claim apparently is specifically a method to get their money back and not a suit for compensation for the sexual misconduct or to protect other girls. To suggest otherwise is simply trying to cloud the issues. Furthermore, you well know the difference between the burden of proof in a civil case and criminal case and that lay people cannot bring criminal cases so again to ask why they would do one and not the other and use that as proof to your point fails.
Lastly, I am not a talmid chochom at all. Just a regular person and a consumer. If I leave a deposit for something and they deliver something different than I ordered, I want my money back. This is basic human decency. Right and wrong. I don't need to ask a shailoh if I need to go to the bathroom and I don't need to ask when something is as clear as above. For the legal remedy of the delivery of nonconforming goods see what the UCC says. Oh and if you are convinced that the CBD has in fact orchestrated the RICO claim, then you answered your own point. Clearly a Rov and B'D has told them that they could go this route to get a refund.
"Or do you consider yourself such a big talmid chachom you don't need to ask?" - you style of passive aggressive personal attacks really belies your true colors.
"Insiders have told me that the CBD is claiming that Meisels raped at least 40 girls."
ReplyDeleteIf that is the case, then a national organization has to be formed to start training Jewish girls from a young age how to protect themselves -- physical/spiritual self-defense. It would include teaching laws of Yichud, as well as rules like do not let any man, in an educational setting, come within an arms length distance. It will include practice screaming at the top of the lungs when in a stressful, frightening situation. No girl should be admitted to a seminary without a certificate from such a course. I'm serious, and would seriously question anyone who thinks I'm overreacting. All girl students will be required to report any physical contact with a male teacher, and face expulsion for failure to report. Sounds crazy, right? Maybe, but it is eminently sane compared to this reaction: "Read on a blog that a seminary Rabbi raped 40 girls under his charge, ho hum, check my email, see what's on sale on Amazon, oh maybe I'll make a well thought out comment on the CBD, 40 girls raped yeah that's really bad but what can I do? not much I guess...."
Rabbi Eidensohn,
ReplyDeleteDo you believe that the accused in this case is innocent ? Do you believe they are exaggerating his guilt ?
If he isn't innocent, why would your problem lie with the CBD ? Please explain your stance.
@asher - no I don't beieve is innocent. I have no idea what he the extent of his guilt is. The CBD has not officially said anything. There are just claims in the name of Rav Feuerst that he has done every transgression. The only thing that is clear is that he had to be removed from the seminaries
ReplyDeleteYou ask me why is the problem with CBD - please read the post - that is what it is about and it is explained clearly their.
@Ben P are you so naive? Of course the RICO suit is to get money. You owe me $2000 dollars so I am going to make up a story how you really are a Martian or a rapist order to get my money back. I am going furthermore declare that you are part of a conspiracy - because otherwsie the RICO doesn't work. In short I will lie in order to embarrass you so that you will pay me back. And you have no problem with that strategy!? However it is obvious that you really don't know either the legal or the practical ramifcation -and you simply are guessing. that really doesn't help anyone. The bottom line is you assumme that there is nothing wrong with their lawsuit but there is in my question the intelligence and morality of such people. You also are assuming that the judge who hears the story is either an anti-Semite or really dumbe to believe this story.
ReplyDeleteYes Ben P - it is obvious that you are ot a Talmid Chachom - but you are a sincere person who really and truly wants to belived that these people are doing the right thing and therefore why am I question when obviously they need to do what they are doing. That is called ciruclar reasoning.
Halacha clearly requires a beis din to resolve the issue of deposits. This has been brought up many times - it still has the same answer. You don't like halacha so you have a different answer. If you follow halacha that is the answer.
You can cut the psychological mumbo jumbo - it really is nonsense.
In sum, you want to believe the CBD and are doing the right thing and since I question them I must be wrong beccause they are right otherwise why are they doing what they are doing.
If you have anything to add to this discussion then I would be glad to hear - I am simply not interested in a big speech about your faith in the CBD and your lack of faith in me. You could have said that in one line.
RDE, I notice that many of your accusations are filled with all kinds of "evidence" that don't really qualify as evidence. For example, saying a beis din is fake because you never heard of them and tried to call but they didn't answer and that they haven't published pictures of their driver's licenses is ridiculous. That is not evidence plain and simple. It is the same with all these accusations against the cbd -- they are just wild speculation, grasping at straws. Just because you do not know every single thing the the CBD has done for the past 6 months does not mean that they have done something wrong. You also can't throw wild accusations expecting them to produce documents detailing their every move for the past 6 months just to make you happy. With your line of questioning there is no end - every document they produce to defend themselves will be followed by a post with 5 more questions asking for more proof.
ReplyDelete@Lamdan - you have no understanding of what is considered evidence in the real world. You have no understsanding what this case is about. I am tired of the nonsense you keep spouting and I am not allowing anymore of your wsidom on this topic to be published here.
ReplyDeleteAs quickly as possible in Aug. 2014? This RICO case will drag on for a couple of years before it is finalized and any possible damages or payments are awarded. Filing suit is never fast. So this certainly does not accomplish anything remotely like that.
ReplyDeleteif this was my daughter and the educator had either seduced her or raped her, there would be no further blogs. you would be reading about my arrest for what I had done to the educator.
ReplyDelete@Yehoshua - I was told that the CBD does claim physcial evidence of rape
ReplyDeleteThen see my initial comments to RDE on this post. Why insist the CBD need go to the police? Let's blame the parents for not doing so!
ReplyDeleteIf parents can bring a RICO charge just for a monetary loss, על אחת כמה וכמה should parents go to law enforcement for,the actual victimization of their daughters! And if they didn't, then I suppose this somehow undermines the validity of the scandal. Why not argue that instead?
Whew...let's try again. Please 'hold kop':
ReplyDeleteThe police can't take a complaint from anyone. If your friend tells you he's been robbed, you can't make the complaint for him. He has to make it.
For all we know, CBD did tell the parents to go to the police. That's who needs to make the complaint, not the Beis Din hearing the case.
Because of the 'shonda' issue, too many parents won't make that complaint. This has nothing to do with CBD...it is the VICTIMS who fear the stigma.
Now do you understand? Oh, and it's an answer that I am sure about.
He has admitted to negiah. He has not admitted to anything more. The CBD's claim that he admitted more than that is false, and is shown to false by their own letter, which mentions only negiah.
ReplyDeleteI heard the same.
ReplyDeleteWell then, your question of why they didn't advise anyone to go to the police should be addressed either to A: Your source with regard to that point, or B: the CBD. I don't see why those in a public forum would be capable of addressing this question when we are not even privy to what the question is.
ReplyDeleteBecause parents might have other reasons for not going to the police, such as not wanting to put their daughter through the ordeal. Moreover, since these girls are adults, "the parents" have no standing to go to the police. The girl would have to do so herself.
ReplyDeleteBut it's all moot in my opinion. I don't believe a word these so-called dayanim are saying.
Are the parents who are the RICO plaintiffs parents of girls that already attended and were harmed by M, or are these parents of daughters who were registered, paid and planning to attend this coming year?
ReplyDeleteThat question of who the plaintiffs are makes a major difference.
Who the plaintiffs are is public information by getting the RICO suit from the court website. The copy going around the blogs stripped out the plaintiffs names.
you would be reading about my arrest for what I had done to the educator.
ReplyDeleteCouldn't have said it better!
"And the seminary maintains the position they will be delivering everything represented and paid for in the deposit for the school year."
ReplyDeleteYes, like offering a good boost on your shidduch resume, knocking a year off college, and a tradition of upstanding torah true judaism.
But they will not be delivering a sterling education and relationship with an accused rapist 40 times over who was supposed to be there. So maybe there is a mekach ta'us.
On a more serious note, I think there is a point where yashrus would indicate to refund the money w/o demanding a din torah. For example if someone walks out of the store with the item he just bought and realizes that it's clearly defective, when he turns right around and demands his $ back the owner would be well within his halachic rights to refuse and demand a BD. But this never happens. Somehow we make returns all the time and BD never gets involved Why. Bc there is a point where ppl realize that exercising your halachic rights goes counter accepted scocietal norms and yashrus. You can always be a naval birshus hatorah.
Now i realize that the case here may be slightly more nuanced than the store analogy, but still, it's something to think about.
Not that im defending meisels, but exactly what evidence does CBD have that he has "done every sexual transgression"?
ReplyDeleteI feel like the girls tended to b a little too dramatic
I think you need a hug.
ReplyDelete"But they will not be delivering a sterling education and relationship
ReplyDeletewith an accused rapist 40 times over who was supposed to be there."
Supposed to be there, but not there. So what's your point?
In addition to "too Dramatic" I'm told there are serious credibility issues with them in general
ReplyDeleteWow. I can't. I have to explain this. They paid to have their daughter learn with an accused rapist, now she won't get to = mekach ta'us. I should have added #sarcasm. #poeslaw
ReplyDeleteTold by whom?
ReplyDelete@Jasper - sorry but I don't see how that those 7 conditions deal responsibly with a sex predator. The CBD is claiming in their lawsuit that Meisels was running 4 phoney institutions whose sole purpose was to provide girls for his sexual gratification - and the wise responsible response is to tell the victims they can call the police if they want? Are you serious.?
ReplyDeleteThat means of course that if no girl calls the police that no one is notified. That's fine with you?!
. If the CBD really believes the claims made in the RICO filing than there is an obligation of the CBD to get that information to the police and have them investigate and to publicize that Meisels is a danger to humaniity. There is an obligation of the CBD to encourage girls to come forward and file a complaint.
There is an obligation of the CBD to have him locked up for a long time.
What is the consequence if Meisels decides to violate the agreement? What would happen if Meisels attacked other girls - do you think any court in the world would not hold the CBD responsible for allowing him to go free with just these 7 conditions. They have no way of enforcing that he keep those conditions. Why don't you understand the chilul hashem of a rabbi sex maniac whose crimes are concealed from the general population and he is be superivsed by rabbis and the police were never notified and then there is another victim? Jasper I am really disappoint at your diffulty in understanding how serious this is.
The CBD said:
7.The, the Bels Din take no responsibility if any of the victims want to prosecute. They have our permisslon to do so whenever they want. Elimelech Meisels has no permission whatsoever under any circumstances to make any type of contact. with the victims or any members of the victim's families.
Girls who go to seminary generally have been attending Jewish schools for fourteen years -- from the time they are about three or four years old to when they reach seventeen or eighteen years old. They have been taught by word and example that it is generally wrong for males and females to have physical contact outside marriage. The seminary, in general, reinforces this teaching. Yet, sometimes a girl doesn't get the message, something is going on with her that she either intentionally or otherwise tuned out the lesson. Now, a smart man who wants to violate girls will target these girls, precisely because their credibility will be impugned if the girls protest the smart man's sexual assault. And why do I call him smart? Because he has craftily calculated his cover story: he will portray himself as the victim of the girl's "crazy" accusations. "She's in therapy," he will say. "On medication." After a self-important sigh, he will add, "Enough said." So how are we to distinguish the man who is a true victim of a wild accusation and the one who is the perpetrator of crimes against girls? Not so easy. But we can approach the answer statistically if not definitively. We can ask ourselves: Why is this man, claiming innocence, have dozens of accusers? Ok, I understand one, or two, or three. But, dozens? When most, if not all other, male seminary teachers have zero accusations? At the very least we should investigate what is going on. Is it mass hysteria?
ReplyDeleteFeurst has no boundaries. He says whatever lie comes to mind. To believe that 40 people could have been seriously abused and NO ONE ever reported it to their fathers in the past ten years, you have to be a fool.
ReplyDeleteWhen the truth about cbd finished coming out, they will be shown to be fully corrupt, both halachically and legally.
If I understand correctly (and assuming that none of Meisels' alleged offenses occurred in the USA) you are saying that the Chicago Beit Din should have contacted the Israeli police to report offenses and crimes that occurred in Israel, but about which they had heard testimony in Chicago.
ReplyDeleteIn Israel, the age of consent is 16. The offenses under Israeli law would therefore generally not (given that these were post-high school programs) have been child molestation, but rather are alleged to have been rape and (is this a civil or criminal offense in Israel?) abuses of the power inherent in Meisels' position and authority in the schools.
Given the privacy breach that would have happened upon such a report, and given the threats allegedly made by Meisles and Kahane against the shidduch prospects of any girl reporting Meisels, I suggest that unless one of the victims was willing to make the report to the Israeli police that for the CBD to do so would have been futile. Under the circumstances, what should CBD have done in addition to encouraging the victims to make a report to the Israeli police and giving a heter to do so in case any of the victims or their families considered that to be required?
Yerachmiel Lopin has stated that if staffers and educators at the seminaries were not competent to do their jobs if they did not recognize the signs that Meisels was grooming his victims or, if they did recognize them but did nothing, derelict in their duties to their students.
The CBD is claiming that the seminaries failed in their duty to their students, and did so systematically by staffers suppressing reports of Meisels' wrongdoing and even threatening students who reported him. Kahane's notorious letter lends credence to that claim.
What is alleged is that Meisels knew he was using his seminaries to get sexual access to some of his students, and that as the head of the institution and by virtue of his position and authority he so corrupted its processes to serve his own criminal desires, and then managed to induce his employees to participate in his crimes by covering them up.
If that was in fact the situation, for him to promote the seminaries as wholesome, kosher Torah institutions and collect money predicated on that was fraudulent. Doing it systematically and offering tuition incentives to students he had unholy sexual desires for... I'd buy RICO if they can prove that.
But other than fraud, what crimes is Meisels alleged to have committed in the USA? And as for fraud, CBD gave a heter for the suit, since CBD has no standing to file a complaint in the matter while the allegedly defrauded parents do. So, again, in the USA, what law enforcement agency do you mean when you say that CBD should have gone to the "police?"
This case is a serious dispute. It isn't open and shut either way. Especially considering the large sums of money. It isn't totally clear to everyone which side is correct. Both sides earnestly believe they are correct.
ReplyDeleteThis requires a din Torah. Arkaos -- RICO is a serious aveira by those suing in secular court. And the RICO even if successful will not be any faster resolved than a din Torah. Much longer in fact.
From what I have heard there are only 2 accusers and both have their issues. Also I have heard that 1 of them has had similar issues with her family members. So yes if there were dozens of accusers than it would be a totally different story, but from what I understand that is not at all the case
ReplyDelete@on the left coast
ReplyDeleteThere is a basic law "do not stand idly by the blood of your fellow man.
You are in America and you hear that 2 Arabs that you know are going to set off a bomb in Israel. But you say you don't know where or when - would you contact the police?
You are in America and you hear that a gang of bank robbers is planing on rob a bank in Jerusalem - you know their identiy but not which day they will attack. Do you contact the police?
You know that a pyramid scheme is being run by an old friend and he is making millions off of kollel couples and senior citizens. All you know is his identiy and the fact that he is defrauding many people Would you call the police?
Finally you know a pedophile from Brooklyn - never arrested but a local beis din warned him to stop. He fled to Israel - would you call the police?
it is a criinal offense for a teacher to have sex with a student
"Under Israel’s current laws, teenagers are able to consent to sex with a partner of any age from age 16, as long as there is no dependency between the two, such as in a teacher-student relationship."
Lopin's opinion is just that. The claim of the CBD is that staff knew or had reason to know and didn't deal with that information. Since the CBD won't identify these staff - they either think there is no danger or that they don't have to protect students from danger. The IBD does not believe the CBD at this point.
there are serious credibility issues with them in general
ReplyDeleteCompletely. That's what this post shows.
Mr. Orlow,
ReplyDeleteWhy is it fair for you to speculate to a former student what may have happened and how. There was no psak of "done every sexual transgression" and the CBD didn't believe so themselves, as this post demonstrates.
absolutely false information
ReplyDeleteR Eidensohn said above that the CBD accuses him of raping 40 diff girls plus they have physical evidence. He said he got this from ppl close to the CBD. Is that enough for you? Are your sources better than his. Who did you hear from? Did you speak to the CBD? If they're the ones who interviewed the victims and that's what they're saying who can you possibly have heard from? Please enlighten.
ReplyDeleteSo, somehow you know more than the CBD who spent months investigating this, and whom I heard from personally. You must know quite a lot of other things.
ReplyDeleteThat being the case, perhaps you can say how you know that the CBD isn't telling the truth?
Why is it so hard to believe Rabbis Fuerst and Cohen?
ReplyDeleteMiss Honesty,
ReplyDeleteYou may notice that my comment is written in the abstract. That being said, please clarify, if you will, how your comment corresponds to my comment.
But the issue here was not the CBD having awareness of one planning to do crime, but someone that had committed a crime in the past. If they felt hat they had sufficiently addressed the future based on the conditions they made with Meisels, they would need an actual complainant in order to address the past.
ReplyDeleteThe only question is with regard to what changed in the middle of July that they no longer felt things were safe with regard to the future, not why they acted differently from May-July.
Absolutely false claims against them. Sorry to disappoint.
ReplyDeleteIf they were so believable, why wouldn't they be sharing the evidence? What are they hiding? Additionally, why did they whitewash and cover up the abuse from May through July?
ReplyDeleteIf this were the case, why aren't they sharing the info? Why didn't they file a criminal complaint??! Why did they cover-up such a heinous scandal for two months? People who can whitewash and cover-up such heinous crimes for two months are difficult to trust - especially versus a respected well-known Beis Din with a great track record. .
ReplyDeleteYoh don't even have to get in a plane. Just hire an israeli lawyer; would prob be a better idea, since he probably knows where to go without a runaround, and can expedite, present professionalism to the complaint, etc.
ReplyDeleteOf course, there will be several interviews of complainant(s); flying in for the interview shows good faith the witness / complainant is serious / will show up for actual court date (that is what prosecutors really want.)
the lawsuit is filed by future parents. They are using the stories and facts from the past to somehow prove that they should get their deposit money back. by discrediting the school, they are saying it is not a valid school, so they wwant their money back. they were definitely not involved in this mess, and they had no other children who were in these schools prior. so the lawsuit boiled down to the essence is about money they want back. about $70,000 total
ReplyDeleteUsing the words 'I assume' definitely cannot be equated with truth but nobody seems to be noticing that.
ReplyDeleteAnd of course 'insiders have told me' is another wellspring of honest reporting. Who says they didn't also make it up. R Fuerst is not so quick to give over information EVEN if he is being ripped on the internet. I have seen it happen before (in life, not online) where he could have defended himself with one sentence but it would have been giving away personal info and he didn't. I am. OT a defender of R' Fuerst, but I do know that to be the case which makes so much of these assumptions and insider information somewhat fiction.
relevance to today?
ReplyDeleteObviously!
ReplyDeleteRead the interview with the chicag0 beis din member and mishpacha magazine's push for similar batei dinim as the cornerstone of dealing with abuse