Update: Added comment on the translation of Dr. Schlesinger's lawyer's false assertion regarding the ESRA diagnosis at the bottom of the post] As repeatedly noted, Dr. Schlesinger is obsessed with the idea that Beth is suffering from major mental illness. He failed in his attempt to have his wife committed because he was sure that she was suffering from paranoid schizophrenia. The police psychiatrist rejected this possibility. He involvement into tricking Beth to go to ESRA for a diagnosis of at least post-partum depression also failed.
Below is the actual report of the Esra psychiatrist in the original German and in English translation. Also I included Dr. Schlesinger's pointed rejection of this diagnosis in response to Beth's appeal to regain custody that she lost to him. Dr. Schlesinger is convinced that the psychiatrists are wrong and only he understands that Beth is clearly paranoid, schizophrenic and suffering from postpartum depression. I find it strange that no one has picked up on this obsession to have Beth committed as well as to control her in an abusive fashion. That alone should have been enough to return custody to Beth.
ESRA PSYCHOSOCIAL CENTRE
Centre for psychosocial,
sociotherapeutic and sociocultural integration
Clinic for delayed reactions and illness
resulting from a Holocaust or migration syndrome
Vienna, 3 March 2010
SPECIALISTS’
REPORT
Re: Ms. Beth Schlesinger, DOB: 22.8.1984
Taborstr. 38/2, 1020 Vienna
Dear colleague,
Ms Beth Schlesinger came to our clinic on 10 November 2009 because of a
sleep deficit over a period of months caused by a very troublesome care
situation with 6-month-old twins.
The patient stated the following:
She was born and grew up in Manchester, England, has two brothers,
married a Viennese and has been living in Vienna for three years. She has
worked as a TESOL teacher (Teacher of English to Speakers of Other Languages)
and at a migrant organization.
Ms. Schlesinger has two sons, twins aged six months. Her husband is a
house officer (intern) at the Wilhelminenspital (KAV, 1160 Wien) in Vienna. The
pregnancy was normal, a Caesarean section at the Vienna AKH (General Hospital)
in the 35th week. The children are healthy but could only be
breastfed for 4.5 months, as they had become used to a bottle by that point.
Neither parent was able to sleep much at night – at the most two hours –
as one of the children would then wake up, leading to extreme stress. The
parents tried to react quickly when this happened so that the other child did
not wake up too. The patient is exhausted although she has a daytime household
help. The situation is too much for her and she is unable to sleep during the
day as well.
Ms. Schlesinger’s family lives in England, her husband’s family in
Vienna. The latter, however, do not help her. On the contrary, her
mother-in-law phones her again and again, wanting to know everything but
offering no assistance whatsoever. She also has a sister-in-law (the boys’
aunt) in Vienna but neither her mother-in-law nor her sister-in-law does
anything to help her.
Psychopathological status: clear-thinking, fully oriented, no hints of
positive symptoms of schizophrenia, labile mood, emotions predominantly
negative, makes exhausted impression, under considerable stress, normal
cognitive powers except for disturbance of attention resulting from exhaustion,
enormously stressful situation due to sleep-deprivation and disruption of her biorhythm.
The patient was offered parent counseling for the stressful situation
she was in. Other strategies were discussed.
Zoldem® (zolpidem) when required was prescribed for sleeping problems.
Diagnosis: adjustment disorder F 43.20 (brief depressive reaction due to
the stress associated with situation at home)
Signed: Dr. David Vyssoki, Medical Director Dr. Waltraud Fellinger-Vols,
Psychiatrist
Added by translator: ICD-10
F43 Reaction to severe stress, and adjustment disorders
F43.0 Acute stress reaction
F43.1 Post-traumatic stress disorder
F43.2 Adjustment disorders
.20 Brief depressive
reaction
.21 Prolonged depressive reaction
.22 Mixed anxiety and depressive reaction
.23 With predominant disturbance of other emotions
.24 With predominant disturbance of conduct
.25 With mixed disturbance of emotions and conduct
.28 With other specified predominant symptoms
F43.8 Other reactions to severe stress
F43.9 Reaction to severe stress, unspecified
Original German report of the findings of the psychiatrist and the diagnosis that she is simply suffering from the stress of lack of sleep.
Psychopathologischer Status: klar, allseits orientiert, geordnet, kein Hinweis auf produktive Symptomatik, Stimmungslage eher labil, mehr im negativen Bereich affizierbar, wirkt erschöpft, belastet, kognitive Leistungen bis auf erschöpfungsbedingte Konzentrationsstörung unauffällig, massive Belastungssituation durch Schlafdefizit mit Biorhythmusstörung.
Angesichts der belasteten Situation wurde der Patientin eine Elternberatung angeboten, weiters wurden Strategien besprochen. Eine Einschlafhilfe durch Zoldem 10 mg Tabletten bei Bedarf wurde verordnet.
Es wurde die Diagnose einer Anpassungsstörung F 43.20 gestellt, im Sinne einer leichten depressiven Reaktion im Rahmen der Belastungssituation.
Für Rückfragen stehen wir gerne zur Verfügung
=====================
EXCERPT
FROM DR SCHLESINGER'S REPLY TO BETH'S CUSTODY APPEAL, AUG 2011
[Notice that he not only disagrees with the psychiatrists reporting that they failed to find post partum depression but he wants to include in the report that she has "a paranoid personality structure". Finally he distorts the ESRA report - which while noting that Beth was in a situation of acute stress from sleep deprivation dealing with the twins - does not say that they recommend "urgent therapeutic help".]
update In the excerpt below the German says ... Also the children father rejects the ESRA diagnosis which asserted that Beth does not have post partum depression. @Flower raised the question who else disagreed with the report. The translator said that the reason that she omitted the previous sentence is because it make a false assertion. It says that not only does Beth reject the ESRA report which says she doesn't have postpartum depression but also Michael rejects it.
In other words Dr. Schlesinger's lawyer is falsely asserting in the appeals document that Beth says the ESRA psychiatrist was wrong and that she in fact does have post partum depression and that also Michael agrees with that.
update In the excerpt below the German says ... Also the children father rejects the ESRA diagnosis which asserted that Beth does not have post partum depression. @Flower raised the question who else disagreed with the report. The translator said that the reason that she omitted the previous sentence is because it make a false assertion. It says that not only does Beth reject the ESRA report which says she doesn't have postpartum depression but also Michael rejects it.
In other words Dr. Schlesinger's lawyer is falsely asserting in the appeals document that Beth says the ESRA psychiatrist was wrong and that she in fact does have post partum depression and that also Michael agrees with that.
“The
father disagrees with the negative statement (regarding post partum
depression) and wishes it to be changed to an alternative or
additional one about her paranoid personality structure, the way she
manipulates her environment, and that the ESRA (Vienna Jewish
community psychosocial centre) therapist, who the mother and a
girlfriend ["Janet"] went to see, stated that she was subject to a situation of
acute stress and recommended that she get urgent therapeutic help”
„….Auch
der Kindesvater bekämpft diese Negativfeststellung und begehrt an
deren Stelle die Ersatz- bzw die ergänzende Feststellung zur
paranoiden Persönlichkeitsstruktur, zu deren ihre Umwelt
manipulierenden Verhalten sowie dazu, dass jene Therapeutin der ESRA
(dem psychosozialen Zentrum der IKG), die die Kindesmutter gemeinsam
mit einer Freundin aufgesucht hatte, bei ihr eine akute
Belastungssituation konstatiert und ihr dringend therapeutische Hilfe
anempfohlen hat „
If he really thought she was crazy why would he marry Beth in the first place?
ReplyDeleteOne possible answer - I don't know if he would agree - is that he felt she became a different person after giving birth to the twins.
DeleteThe same question can be addressed to Beth, how could she marry someone who she nows perceives as abusive? One possible answer is that their relationship changed after they got married and in particular after the twins were born.
People do change after marriage and having kids. In fact to the degree that one is in love with another person they are also vulnerable to being hurt and betrayed. Thus hatred is greatest against those we once loved.
Or as Elie Wiesel noted, one can hate the Nazis but true hatred is between brothers. And I would add between a couple that once strongly loved each other and now feel hurt and betrayed by his/her spouse.
@Elana But did the father think she was crazy BEFORE he married her? I doubt it very much. All kinds of chemical changes are taking place in the brain when 2 people fall in love but when these 2 know each other well enough before marriage, even the abnormal state of being in love will not cover up everything. The boys' parents DIDN'T know each other well before they got married though - or so we read. One was living in one country and the other in another. So she must have been carried away and so must he and I guess neither of them knew much about how the other would behave under conditions of normal daily life. Control freaks do their utmost to cover up these unpleasant features of their personalities in the courtship phase so probably the father seemed like a different person when they actually started living together in Vienna and his abusive aspects began to show up. If she had been the nice person her friends have described prior to marriage, any changes her husband noticed during their new life together in Austria would - I assume - have been due to her reaction to what she was experiencing in her marriage and almost certainly to being a foreigner without the language. It's normal for a newcomer to a foreign culture to go through various stages: first exhilaration, then reality strikes and there can even be mild (or more) depression, and finally, adjustment to the new situation. As the general impression we've got here is of a man who is not capable of giving his wife support when she needs it (eg the boys' brit several years later), the mother may have felt really uncomfortable and perplexed by the situation she found herself in at the beginning. He, who doesn't appear to understand how other people's minds operate, would then have assumed that she was mad. But not before they married. I sure hope this doctor hasn't gone in for a field like psychiatry but rather surgery or neurology or lungs or something, where he doesn't need what they call "theory of mind".
DeleteGood question Elana.
DeleteBeth and Michael were married for three years before they had
children.
He obviously didn't think she had
any mental issues in those three
years before the boys were born,
but obviously just used this ploy
to try to get rid of Beth and gain
custody when it suited him!
In other words he manipulated the situation to suit himself!
What chance did Beth have in a strange country without a good
knowledge of its language and
culture She was completely
fooled!
Who could she trust there? Who are her true friends in Vienna?
Doesn't the father and the Jewish community in Vienna feel any
shame as to what they are doing to Beth, Sammy and Benji?
Now is time for them to make amends! We are waiting to see if they do! At the moment the
Austrian Jewish Community are doing a very good job of showong the world their true colours and if
they don't make amends as The
British Board of Deputies have
stated they will be stained.
Is this what they want to live in a ghetto in Vienna shunned by the rest of the world?
I have personally seen this trick too. It says more about the husband than the wife. To my mind, to sink to such depths shows deceit, depravity and lack of conscience. And of course she became a new person - she became a mother deserving of time and space to adjust to her new role. If anyone had a character change I'd say it was the husband who, at first, presented himself as a charming person. Beware the facade! I have also personally witnessed such a metamorphosis.
ReplyDelete"As repeatedly noted, Dr. Schlesinger is obsessed with the idea that Beth is suffering from major mental illness."
ReplyDeleteAs the chazal say: "kol haposel, bemumo posel" (basically "whoever diminishes another person or something, does so with his own faults") so therefore all the good doctor does is put his own psychological issues (and he obviously has major issues, whatever they may be) on display.
As for the ousted ex wife and Mother of the children, she is not the first and will not be the last woman to fall for a charismatic strong personality.
On some basic chore primal level most women have a primal attraction to very strong men who are obviously rogues but they cannot resist the essentially hypnotic charms of such guys.
Some may call it "sex appeal" others may call it "falling madly in love" or just "irresistible" or what have you.
It happens all the time.
Even the last Czarina of Russia and all the ladies of the court could not resist the primal charms and pull of the original Rasputin no matter how outwardly rogue-ish he was (to say the least) but the pull of his personality was totally irresistible on the primal level, he was also a HEALER and man of "the spirit".
So it boils down to a mixture of strong paranormal forces always at work with strong people, and of the mysterious ways of the Id (as in "Id, Ego, Super Ego") and if the person involved has a very confident Ego and the ability to use and project their Super Ego then it's a "winning combination" and most women would find it irresistible and be drawn to such a powerful man.
See for yourself how powerful he is, in spite of everything he keeps his job/s, he has his entire immediate family's support they probably have lots of money too to back them up, his surrounding Viennese Jewish community is cowed into silence, his shnooky chabad rabbi is bought off and acts like a lapdog poodle rather than what a true rabbi should be, the Austrian professional medical community is in his team, legal people and the judicial system and probably politicians in the palm of his hands, as he defies batei din, outside rabbis, anything his ex wife can do, he does not care if his kids are managed by gentile maids, his attitude is basically one of "sue me!" or as they say in Yiddish "do me something!" (tu mir eppes).
Yeah sure maybe he feels "jilted" or betrayed and is reacting strongly in his own gut level of fighting back by massive PASSIVE-aggression. A truly tough nut to crack...
But Jews believe that the power of CHESED, "olam chesed yibaneh" (the foundation of the world is loving-kindness) that is more powerful than inhumanity and lies and little by little the truth will out as they say and justice will be done one way or the other. it may take weeks, or months, or years or perhaps decades...at this point it is hard to know.
A lot of Tehillim (Psalms) are called for and no doubt the Mother and her side says them all the time on her behalf and on behalf of such captive children.
The Mother of the children should be commended for taking on a battle against all odds against far superior forces, but she must have read the story of Yetsiyas Mitzrayim somewhere, of how EACH YEAR the Jewish slave nation at it's lowest rungs can and will be miraculously saved and redeemed and set free by HKB"H God Himself. Amen, ken yehi ratzon and wishing everyone a Chag Kasher VeSameach!
LeShanah Haba'ah B'Yerushalayim Habenuya!
Amen selah!!
DeleteThis has a smell of 'Maria Miller' about it. Schlesinger is ultimately going to fail. He can either do it with his reputation, that of his family, and that of his community, completely in tatters or he can draw a line under this sorry affair and get on with his life (and allow his children to heal by spending the proper amount of time with their mother).
ReplyDeleteThis battle is damaging and divisive for the entire klal yisroel.
one little detail that I find interestig: the german version that you posted says: "Auch der Kindesvater bekämpft diese Negativfeststellung". That means, that the father disagrees with the negative statement AS WELL.
ReplyDeletewho else disagrees then?
"auch" means also or in addition. It doesn't mean that there are other people who disagree
DeleteI am sure you are a good Rabbi, but you obviosly dont know too much German. In order to to arrive to your version of the context, it would have to read "Auch bekämpft der Kindesvater diese Negativfeststellung".
DeleteIn any case, this already proves that the translation is incorrect, as Chaim Feldman suggested.
DT, I hope this is an honest translation mistake, and that you are not trying to play manipulative propaganda games here.
so my question still is: who else disagrees with this report?
DeleteFlower as noted below there seems to be a disagreement between German speakers as to whether this translation is incorrect.
DeleteI dont know and care what Esther Lowenstein thinks she knows, and I am certain of one thing: the context of Michaels reply to Beths custody appeal is that there is someone else disagreeing with the report.
DeleteIf you have seen the full reply to the appeal, then you know exactly what I am talking about, so please spare me the semantics.
@flower it is interesting that you are focused on this point. I assume you are aware that Dr. Schlesinger did in fact have support for his diagnosis of paranoid schizoprhenia by a psychiatrist friend who had never met Beth. But this was disputed by the police psychiatrist and others.
DeleteBut since this issue is important to you, I will provide the context of this quote. It really doesn't change my point that Dr. Schlesinger was in fact in disagreement with ESRA's diagnosis that was uptained after Beth was tricked into going there.
Please dont make this about me, I rather find your way of dealing with this story very 'interesting', to say the least.
Delete@Flower but this is about you and your concerns which I find very interesting.
DeleteOf all the issues that have been raised you pick an apparently peripheral issue and are persistent with it.
This has been the general approach of Dr. Schlesinger's supporters in this discussion. Are you one of his supporters?
I am not supporter of anyone, and I dont know either party involved and I am not saying anything for/against Beth/Michael. But what I am saying is that you are wrong.
DeleteAre you really suggesting, that the austrian legal system (on different court levels) bases its judgements on reports "by a psychiatrist friend who had never met Beth"?! We are talking about Austria, and not Belarus!
If you are saying that, then you are either delusional or purposely trying to manipulate the public by posting small and misleading portions of a big picture. I leave that question for everyone to think about, but I think I have a pretty good idea what the answer might be.
@flower it is impressive to see your support for Austrian legal system.
Deleteyou are starting from that point and the apparent "problems" I have raised are not that significant compared to your belief in the system.
I am starting from the evidence of the case - which makes no rational sense and the presumed competence of the court does not justify what I have seen so far.
So as a believer in the system you deal with the cognitive dissonance by claiming that I am delusional or dishonest. That is a reasonable conclusion if you can't accept that the Austiran courts made a mistake. But I have no problem accepting that the courts did make a mistake. American courts do it all the time - why should I assume that the Austrian courts are infallible?
@flower-
DeleteYour trust in the Austrian legal system is admirable. However, even if all the accusations are 100% true(and seemingly they are) it wouldn't be the most horrible miscarriage of justice that I have ever seen.
Eight or nine years ago a case made the rounds of various Jewish sites(I was turned onto it by the ShemaYisrael site) about a Jewish man, who having been accused of molesting his son, was jailed in Atlanta for 6yrs without a trial, without a bail hearing, and without access to a lawyer.
In the end not only did he wife recant her story, the judge was disbarred for severly violating the man's constitutional rights.
Meanwhile the Austrian courts are known to be centers of corruption, as a decent google search will make evident.
On a final note, the claim, that could never happen in such a civilized and enlightened society/country, have been the famous last words uttered but numerous victims of crimes against humanity. To quote Maggie Thatcher, "The veneer of civilization is very thin", she was actually referencing John Shanahan who said, "Civilization is a thin veneer over barbarianism". Implicit trust in any system leads to abuses and injustices.
@DT
DeleteEveryone is entitled to an opinion, and I respect yours - yet, I couldnt disagree with you more.
We here have a case, where courts of law have arrived to a conclusion that is not compatible with your SUBJECTIVE perception of your desired outcome in this issue. In modern western societies, courts form verdicts based on objective and factual evidence.
Here is where we disagree: given the outcome, you jump to the conclusion that the courts are either flawed, mistaken or corrupt.
My opinion is, that the courts know something that I (and probably you) dont know and will we only find out if either one of the participants of this custody dispute will come forward with this information.
And yes, a court can also make a mistake. But we are talking about a case that went through different levels of instances, each presided by a different judge, with lawyers representing both sides and who know the law. And you think the austrian judges would have ignored the blatant corruption of evidence as was reported here? I am sorry, but this is nonsense!
@RMT
DeleteHow do you compare a case of someone not having a bail hearing, trial and a lawyer to this? It seems to me that you dont really know what you are talking about.
And Austrian courts are "centers of corruption"?? Hashem yerachem, what kind of newspapers do you read?!
@flower-
DeleteI assume(giving the benefit of the doubt) that you only skimmed as opposed to reading my comment. I said:
However, even if all the accusations are 100% true(and seemingly they are) it wouldn't be the most horrible miscarriage of justice that I have ever seen.
Meaning that I know of one worse, that was done in a country known for being less corrupt.
Who was I going by? UN, Transparency International(who gives it a score of 69 out of 100, equal with the UAE and Qatar).
As for news sources though there is:
Der Spiegel-
http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/corruption-scandals-in-austria-a-web-of-sleaze-in-elegant-vienna-a-791113.html
Austrian Times
http://austriantimes.at/?id=29040
To name but two that have reported on Austria's corruption problems. Considering that all of it's neighbors make the top 9 for least corrupt countries according to Transparency International, with scores in the 90's, while it is tied with the UAE and Qatar at 26, with a dismal score of 69... My friend something is definitely wrong in Vienna.
@Flower the translator said that the reason that she omitted the previous sentence is because it make a false assertion. It says that not only does Beth reject the ESRA report which says she doesn't have postpartum depression but also Michael rejects it.
DeleteIn other words Dr. Schlesinger's lawyer is falsely asserting in the appeals document that Beth says the ESRA psychiatrist was wrong and that she in fact does have post partum depression and that also Michael agrees with that.
@RMT makes some interesting points about the problems of corruption in Austria. Here you can see the country in a rapid downward trend:
Deletehttp://www.transparency.org/cpi2013/results
http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results
http://www.transparency.org/cpi2011/results
Further evidence of problems in Austria:
http://helpbeth.org/private-eye-magazine-slams-austria-for-hiding-corruption/
It is possible that the high profile nature of this case internationally, may be contributing to the loss of confidence in the Austrian judiciary. We are continually being told about the "9 independent judges" endorsing the rulings. They fail to mention the "old boys network" all revolving around Konstanze Thau. She is in touch with all of the relevant judges and can swing a case at any level (Appeal Court, Supreme Court, etc...) as can be seen from a google search on other cases.
Only a fool would have absolute trust in the courts' handing of this case having seen the irregularities so far.
@DT
Deletethank you very much for this clarification. I loved it so much, acually had to read it three times.
You pratically admit, that the "translator" decided on her own to "enlighten" us, and manipulated the correct translation.
How about publishing the whole document with a honest translation, and give the reader the chance, to form his/her own comprehension of events? No, you rather choose to show us a small piece of the puzzle, that is manipulated just enough, so to "help" us understand reality the way you want us to understand.
And you call yourself a rabbi...
Please dont take this personal, but you just proved my point and confirmed, why I dont everything you claim for granted.
@RMT
DeleteThank you for your links, but I am not sure I understand you, you seem to suffer from a severe case of "wishful thinking":
1. The articles you provided deal with the issue of political and/or economic corruption. I dont see anything there about "the austrian courts being the center of corruption", as you put it so nicely.
2. The article in "Der Spiegel" deals with politicians who were engaged in criminal activities. Most of them have been convicted, even former interior minister Ernst Strasser was sentenced two weeks ago to 3,5 years prison. If anything, your article proves the legitimacy and integrity of the austrian court system.
3. Every country in the world has corruption. Also Austria. If you compare it to other developed european countries, it ranks avergage. I dont know where you find your numbers ("tied with Qatar..."), here is a link to TI: http://www.ti-austria.at/uploads/media/CPI2013_Tabelle_OEsterreich_im_Vergleich.pdf
If you want, you and DT may continue to run blind against the wall bashing your heads. I suggest, you wake up and smell the coffee. After all, you are a Rabbi, for G-ds sake.
Flower - it's a little disingenuous to say "don't take this personally" after saying "and you call yourself a rabbi"!
DeleteNevertheless I encourage you to keep badgering the blog owner to seek a highly accurate, objective translation, and to beware his own agendas to prove a reality theory in which he has already invested.
@flower your gloating is rather strange for someone who claims to be neutral. The translator was bending over backward to be fair to Dr. Schlesinger because she felt that the lawyer might not have meant to say this false statement.
DeleteThere was no manipulation. It was simple a conservative translation to try and be fair to both sides. According to your smirking comment, one would have thought the translator had concealed something which showed Dr. Schlesinger in a favorable light. But in fact the opposite was true.
you then proceed to be insulting - but say I shouldn't take it personally. It is because of "neutral" people like yourself that the evidence is being laid out systematically before the full report is published.
Your point has not been proven but rather you have reinforced mine. The reports do not objectively present the evidence. With "neutral judges" like yourself there is no need to discuss the case because you view Beth guilty as charged before her defense is presented.
Contrary to your barb - nothing was manipulated. It was simply an attempt to be fair to Dr. Schlesinger.
ok, I summarise:
Deleteflower: the translation is flawed
DT: the translation is not flawed, flower just doesnt know enough german.
flower: no, the translation is flawed.
DT: ok, the translation is flawed, but there is a good reason for it.
a tranlator (btw., who translated these documents?) needs to translate, not more and not less.
you can try as much as you want to push me towards one side, but it wont work, I will not post any opinon for or against any of the involved parties as I dont know what the details are. But I do feel confident in the austrian legal system, and as of now, NO ONE was able to bring any evidence of wrongdoings by the courts, not even those members of british parliament who adressed the issue. I for myself believe that there also will never be such evidence, no matter how bad the propaganda war that is being led by you and other people against austria and/or the jewish community there will be. Because if there were any such evidence, this case would have ended up at a court at EU/UN level, which is hasnt and it never will.
And you will probably not believe me, but I feel horrible for Beth.
And thats it from me, I have nothing more to add.
PS. If I was you, id consider changing my blog name. "Daat Torah" is not what comes to mind, when reading your postings.
one more on your comment "With "neutral judges" like yourself there is no need to discuss the case because you view Beth guilty as charged before her defense is presented."
DeleteI actually agree with you there, I dont understand the point of this discussion. Imagine a world where people would try to undermine justice systems by launching private propaganda wars every time courts dont decide in their favor.
waste of energy and time by people who dont have any of the crucial facts, other than those provided by one of the involved parties.
why dont we abolish courts altogether, lets deal with our legal disputes here on your blog, with you being the ultimate judge.
>"Contrary to your barb - nothing was manipulated. It was simply an attempt to be fair to Dr. Schlesinger."
DeleteThat was all you needed to say, DT
PS: I applaud the fact that you let all my comments go though
Delete@flower - it comes down to the fact that you presume the courts did their job properly and I am saying that they haven't.
DeleteA simple example, the attempt by Dr. Schlesinger to have his wife committed by impersonating a psychiatrist with the collusion of a genuine psychiatrist who had never seen Beth - failed because the police took the trouble of evaluating the situation themselves and their psychiatrist said Beth was not a paranoid schizophrenic as claimed by her husband. He was kicked out of the house and she got custody.
While the judge in the custody case acknowledged this happened this was not considered a significant issue in the custody case and in fact the therapist who wrote the report on Beth was not given the information about this incident.
You obviously see nothing wrong with this because the court saw the evidence and decided. However I say it should have at least called for a psychiatric examination of Dr. Schelsinger - which never happened - and was not considered a signifcant issue by the court.
But as you said - despite the many posts on the subject nothing has shaken your belief in the Austrian court system. No one is claiming that this blog should decide who should have custody. My sole purpose is to present evidence that the case was not handled properly and that the best interest of the twins was not served. Hopefully the case will be reopened and a complete evaluation of the evidence done.
I have similarly dealt with the Tropper case, the Michael Hirsch lawsuit, various divorce cases, the miscarriage of justice concerning Father MacGrae - and many others. According to your perception I should have remained silent when I perceived a miscarriage of justice and said that the courts know best and probably know better what is true.
To me it is a simple question - after 120 years when we face the Heavenly court of judgment - you will say that you did nothing because you believed in the Austrian court system. I don't have the chutzpah to say such a thing.
Every country in the world has corruption. Also Austria. If you compare it to other developed european countries, it ranks avergage. I dont know where you find your numbers
DeleteI told you where I got my numbers. The commentor Facts above had no problem finding them. It doesn't rank average with other developed European nations. Here's the top 5 nations and their scores according to Transparency International
Denmark- 91
New Zealand- 91
Finland- 89
Sweden- 89
Norway 86
4 of those 5 are developed European nations. Under what rubric of grading is a 69 comparable with a 91 or even an 86? Do you know of a University that would bestow a degree upon a person with a GPA of 69 claiming that is ranking average with the other passing students?
Because if there were any such evidence, this case would have ended up at a court at EU/UN level, which is hasnt and it never will.
Well let's start by stating that the EU and the UN are two very different organizations. The UN runs the ICJ otherwise known as the world court, but it only handles war crimes and disputes between nations. Beth can, if she so chooses, appeal to EU's court of Human Rights(sorry forgot it's name). However, there is no scenario on this earth where judicial corruption automatically guarantees a hearing before a higher court. It requires an appeal, which requires an attorney and lots of fees.
A sad but true fact is that the modern Judiciary found in most democracies disproportionately favors the rich. They don't need a better case to destroy, in fact you can win, and still wind up losing just by being bankrupted through the process.
A single mother forced to live as an unemployed ex-pat just so that she can see her children when her ex-husband has a fit of whimsical mercy does not have unlimited resources at her disposal to fight a court case on all levels as it should be.
The real question at the end of the day is this: Does Beth deserve to lose her children because her ex-husband can out lawyer her, out spend her, and pull political strings in a country where judges tie their careers to politicians?
Just because a court decided something doesn't make it infallible. Just look at the folks that were wrongly executed even after appeals to the highest levels to then be exonerated years after their deaths... Were their deaths right and just simply because a court(or several) so decided?
re. Flower's disdain for this blog's title, all I can say is welcome. The author has a fascinating mix of Torah scholarship, political acumen, brash oneupsmanship, quest for truth, sensitivity to the abused... and pure whim.
DeleteOnce you get used to it and drop all illusions for an honest to goodness format for discerning unadulterated Torah, and realize that it's power is more about stirring up new thoughts on resolving complex social problems in the Orthodox Jewish world... it can be rewarding.
How's that R' D?
; - )
I don't think either of you understand what Daas Torah is.
DeleteAnd of course you uniquely do.
DeletePls enlighten - as a general principle driving this blog, and specifically re. this latest topic.
I'm not against you, R' Daniel. But you do stretch far beyond your mandate...
yy I realize you are not against me. But you clearly don't understand what I am doing or what my "mandate" is - and I am not the one to enlighten you in these matters. We simply don't dance to the same music.
Delete@RMT
DeleteI dont know what a "corruption perception index" is, but its interesting that Austria ranks 26 vs. Israel 36.
Anyhow, I dont see any point in arguing with someone who is clearly delusional, as you call austrian courts "centers of corruption".
But there is one interesting pointin your last comment. You obviosly think that Michael Schlesinger can "out lawyer, out spend his ex-wife and pull political strings". I dont know where you get your information from, but I do have very good sources in Vienna, and I suggest you that you make some research before posting such info, because it makes you look like a fool.
@DT
DeleteHow about me worrying about my own "after 120", and you about yours.
Let me ask you a few questions, since you know so much about "Daas Torah". Do you think that there is Daas Torah in Vienna? If so, do you think they share your position in this particular case? If not, why?
I rather get the impression that it is you who doesnt understand what he is doing: You are providing a platform for and actively participating in an unjust and cruel online propaganda war against a community, based on information that is flawed, distorted and not complete.
DeleteIf you were a man, you would fly to Vienna, approach Michael Schlesinger in shul, listen to his side of the story and then form an opinion.
Kudos to Michael Schlesinger that he doesnt participate in this all out online war, and even more kudos to him for not publishing the court documents.
@RMT
DeleteI suggest you look at this site BEFORE you make more comments about the austrian legal system
http://data.worldjusticeproject.org/#/index/AUT
and here:
http://data.worldjusticeproject.org/pdf/rule-of-law-index-AUT-full.pdf
look at the graph for "Corruption of judges and judicial officers", and compare it with western europe / north america.
read it and comment please. I am wondering if you are man enough to take back your words.
@flower you are the one who walked into my daled amos and began criticizing me. If you want to go your way and let me go my way - why waste your time commenting on the blog. If you are going to attack me - then it is appropriate for me to respond and indicate what I think you should be doing differently.
DeleteYour main concern however has been to attack my integrity and religiosity. You expressed distain and contempt for what I am doing. I feel the same about you. At this point there clearly is no productive communication between us - so I don't see any basis for continuing providing you with a platform to issue insults.
If it were helping to produce a resolution of this custody battle - then I would continue. However you have no interest in that either since you accept the competence of the Austrian legal system and I have failed to persuade you that depriving children of their mother is wrong and nothing has been presented that would justify the way Dr. Schlesinger is acting.
If you want me to continue publishing your comments - then you will need to focus on the issues. Otherwise you will be regarded as a troll whose concern is to disrupt and insult.
according to the rule of law index, austria has a ranking of 7/99, germany 9/99, UK 13/99, USA 19/99.
DeleteI am glad to have found this useful index. DT, the right question that you need to ask yourself is, why the courts have decided the way they did. If you ignore this question, I see no point in commenting any further on this blog, because you are not seeking the truth.
you have only distain and contempt for what I am doing because I believe in a court of law??? ever heard of "dinei de'malchusei dinei"?
DeleteAnd because of this opinion you want to prevent me from posting?
@flower I have asked that question after reading the court papers. As I have repeatedly stated the justification for the custody arrangment makes no sense.
Delete@DT
DeleteI didnt know you read the court papers. You read all of them? Also the reasoning? Also the reasoning of the higher instances? And it still makes no sense?
>" you clearly don't understand what I am doing or what my "mandate" is - and I am not the one to enlighten you in these matters."
DeleteThat's classic escapist rationalization, dear DT. To call you on this, I'll echo Flower and ask if you're man enough to spell out what you so blithely accuse others of being ignorant of,
Using the term Daas Torah to attack Jewish communities, cast aspersions on other justice systems, and tarnish the names of innocent-until-proven-guilty Jews is playing with holy fire. You know this term is extremely powerful in our generation. Rabbinical and psychological papers notwithstanding, a responsible Jew does not take it lightly and snub his nose at those who seriously question what your mandate actually is.
R' Daniel - I have no prob us dancing to different tunes. But when we are called upon to play a part in the Orchestrata of the klal, we must never forget that we must fall into line with the same Conductor.
Lila tov, good Shabbos
flower, do you think, in your own opinion, that the current custody and visiting arrangement (and lack of enforceability thereof) is acceptable?
DeleteIt should be a simple yes/no answer.
If your answer is "no", then there is no starting point for us to have a discussion. It would be like trying to explain basic morals to someone who is totally unaware of any such thing.
@ flower
DeleteDo you know what? You have not mentioned the children once.
You attack.
You try and make someone small with your views.
It is obviously your desired outcome that the case went against Beth.
You know what I think flower, that you are the father.
Well your certainly not a beautiful flower, "flower"
@Flower
DeleteSo you are saying that because Austrians don't think that they have problems(after all it was a survey of 100,000 Austrians) then they obviously don't have problems? That is a kind of silly notion really.
Also please note how corruption is very narrowly defined, Don't move cases unless the parties bribe them. So only a small percentage of Austrians believe that you have to bribe a judge to get him to hear your case... Bravo!!! What a stellar example of lack of judicial corruption. Though they also believe that North America and the rest of Western Europe fair far worse... It's funny that the rest of those countries(with the exceptions of Spain and France, the only two Western European nations to score lower on the Transparency International ratings than Austria) feel similarly about their own levels of "corruption"(needing to bribe judges to hear cases) and that of the rest of Western Europe and North America...
Austria is a Democracy right? If the people thought that there was corruption, they would hopefully work to fix it via their votes.
@Leah
DeleteI dont mention the children because I am trying to talk about a totally different issue here. Of course I feel bad for the children, and I would want them to grown up in a loving family environment. If this is not possible, then they should at least be in a place that is determined best for them.
The difference between me and you is, I dont claim to know what is best for them. But thank G-d, there are functioning legal systems (called family courts) that are designed to do just that. Wouldnt it be better if Beth and Michael would live together in harmony? Yes. But it istnt the case, and someone needs to have the authority to analyse facts and evidence, and make an unbiased and fair decision.
And why is it that I frequently observe supporters from one side accusing someone with the different opinion of being the father? There must me many fathers already.
And no, I am not the father.
@Status
DeleteAgain; I dont know if it is acceptable, because I dont have the insights, dont even know the character of the current visiting arrangement. And my guess is, you dont have those infos either. You are only being spoonfed whatever one of the involved parties desides to share with you.
@RMT
DeleteI will try a different approach.
If you read through Beths blog, you will find numerous references to the curruption of justice and to the fact - given the outrageous verdict - that one of the judges is being investigated, for example in May 2013, she wrote:
"Every application about visitation since then has simply been ignored, without any justification, for which the judge now has to account as she faces disciplinary investigation." http://helpbeth.org/visit-30th-april/
Did you, and all the others that are contributing blindly to a vicious campaign, ever ask yourselves, why we never heard anything about those investigations? Why didnt we see paparazzi pictures of judges being carried away from their court houses in handcuffs?
Its a simple question: given the obvious corruption and conspiracy, combined with an investigation of the judges, where are the results? the indictments? I wonder if you ever thought about this.
If your answer is, that Michael Schlesinger also bought the federal prosecution, then no-one can help you.
Why so dramatic. Every investigation has to include handcuffs and paparazzi?
DeleteFrom this publication of the Austrian govt Judges can only be charged criminally after having been found to have violated their professional or ethical duties by the a Judiciary investigation, in the hopes of maintaining Judiciary independence.
So their would be no handcuffs or the like until after whatever organs of the judiciary completed their investigation. So the judge faced disciplinary investigation... That is, according to the cited document, something that the judiciary carries out on it's own free of intervention by the federal prosecution.
It would be really easy to use a "when did you stop beating your wife question here." As lacking of finding by the judiciary could just as easily be a sign of judiciary corruption as a finding of corruption. However, who is to say that the investigation is yet complete?
Again you seem to labor under the false assumption that D"T is just taking Beth's word for things. Instead he has read the court documents, all of them, and the psychological reports(for which as a PhD in psychology he is perfectly suited to analyze and understand), and has come to the conclusion that something isn't right with the behavior of the court that handled the case, not just because Beth says so, but because anyone looking at the documents can see that.
@RMT
DeleteI will not comment anymore regarding the issue of legal integrity because I am obviously wasting my time here.
Regarding DT reading all documents: I asked him yesterday if he read all the documents:
As of now, he didnt reply.
You know, courts are obligated to provide a reason for why they decide the way they do. Court cannot come up with some made up BS, as the reasoning for judgement will be under extreme scrutiny by higher instances, all the lawyers, and like in this case the participating crowd all over the world, eben members of british parliament.
It is absolutely impossible for an austrian court, especially in a high profile case like this one, to either omit the reasoning, or come up with some fabricated story. Such a ruling would not even last one day, let alone go through higher instances.
@RMT, gut voch.
DeleteI would like to state that DT didnt yet confirmed your claim that he has read all the court documents. If he in fact didnt, you may assume that he doesnt know enough of this case to know the whole picture.
Again, I am not saying that you or DT shouldnt support Beth, on the contrary, I believe that she deserves all support in the world. But the way to do it would be helping her legally, financially and emotionally. And not by providing a platform for conspiracy theories and slandering a whole community.
@RMT
DeleteFurthermore, I want to remind you that you made a ludicrous claim saying that Austrian courts are centers of corruption, and I proved you quite wrong.
As of now, you were not able to overcome your ego and take back your words. What a pity.
Furthermore, I want to remind you that you made a ludicrous claim saying that Austrian courts are centers of corruption, and I proved you quite wrong.
DeleteNo you didn't. You provided a single source, namely the World Justice Project, which is a Seattle based NGO that hosted a poll inside Austria to see what Austrians think about their govt. Great for the Austrians that they think their govt isn't corrupt.
However, I posted a report by Transparency International which bases it's results on numerous data points and is relied upon by both credible news organizations(CNN) and Govermental organizations(cited in the CIA factbook and by various organs of the UN).
Then you made the claim that there had to be handcuffs and paparazzi for there to be an investigation. Which really makes no sense... If that is your conclusive proof... Well I hope that you also are not a judge in the Austrian system.
@RMT
DeleteThe world justice project analyses data based on polls. How else do you want to measure corruption, if not by polls? I just checked the wiki entry for TI:
1. they also use polls.
2. it says "Transparency International (TI) is a non-governmental organization that monitors and publicizes CORPORATE and POLITICAL corruption
Wereas the wiki for WOJ says: "The World Justice Project (WJP) is an independent, multidisciplinary organization working to advance the RULE OF LAW around the world"
Last time I checked, a custody dispute was ruled by law, and not by politicians or corporations.
I really dont get why you have such a hard time admitting that you are just wrong. Your ego must be much more powerful than I anticipated, being a rabbi.
I really dont get why you have such a hard time admitting that you are just wrong. Your ego must be much more powerful than I anticipated, being a rabbi.
DeleteYour ad hom is nice. I like that in a commenter because it always means that you really have no basis for your argument. Yes Transparency International does monitor and publicize about political and corporate corruption. The Judiciary is technically political as it is an organ of the govt. All corruption(unless it takes place in private organizations) is either political or corporate.
I have given you my reasons for why I trust Transparency International, namely that they are trusted by the UN, and major news outlets.
I also said that I didn't trust WOJ because they relied solely on polls. I guess I didn't put fine enough of a point on it, so here let me clarify a bit. Austrians have a problem with admitting that they were wrong. Point in note, the movie The Sound of Music. It was the highest grossing film of all time at it's release, and yet it tanked in Austria. Why? To quote, "Austrian filmgoers in particular resented the way Nazism was depicted in their country."(Bright Lights and Film Journal 41).
We are talking about a country that still embraces nazism even today, "Far right parties are among the strongest parties in Austria today."(Lacquer, Facism: Past, Present and Future p. 5) Further Austria's continuing embrace of nazism is not from sociopolitical factors, like in say Greece, but rather a failure of the denazification program at the end of the war.(Lacquer p. 117)
So we have a nation that despite being home to the Mauthausen-Gusen concentration camp, cannot, or will not realize that Nazism was, and is wrong, and yet you want me to believe their citizenry when they say that they are not corrupt?
This statement of Flower's is important:
Delete>"I am not saying that you or DT shouldnt support Beth, on the contrary, I believe that she deserves all support in the world. But the way to do it would be helping her legally, financially and emotionally. And not by providing a platform for conspiracy theories and slandering a whole community."
So much time and energy is being wasted on put-downs of "the other side". Chaval meod. Stop looking for enemies and begin CONSTRUCTIVE SOLUTION SEEKING.
Flower is against conspiracy theories and community slander, not support of Beth.
@RMT
Delete"It is the highest form of self-respect to admit our errors and mistakes and make amends for them. To make a mistake is only an error in judgment, but to adhere to it when it is discovered shows infirmity of character."
Dale Turner
@yy
Deletethank you for this comment, finally someone here with a bit of common sense
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI note that the translation is incomplete: in the last paragraph it is stated that she has a depressive reaction, due to the situation. Could you please correct the translation.
Also: I think it would be good to have a scan of the ORIGINAL Diagnosis and not just a transcript. Could this please be provided?
In what way is the translation incomplete or incorrect?
DeleteBoth the German and English indicate that her problem is basically being stressed out because of not getting proper sleep from dealing with the twins. It is simply is a situational problem - not the result of some pathology
If I understand you correctly you are saying that there is a definite possiblity that I have deleted some other more serious diagnosis.
If you can get a statement from Dr. Schlesinger to that effect I will publish the scan of the original. Dr. Schlesinger's problem with the ESRA diagnosis is that they didn't find any serious mental problems with his wife.
I know both languages but don't see any mistakes in the translation. I understand the same as DT, ie that the mother does not have a psychiatric disorder like bipolar, schizophrenia, major depression or generalised anxiety disorder but is having trouble adjusting to a stressful situation. Sorry but I don't follow you Chaim Feldman
Deletethis is not really a prove: we are getting something here written by Beth and then only excerpts. the real documents must be published and in full. Otherwise anyone can write (and distort) anything.
ReplyDeleteIlan - it is not Beth who is deciding what to publish here it is me. Please tell me what you think I have distorted. Dr. Schlesinger and his supporters have obviously seen the documents. If I have covered over anything or created statements out of thin air - all they need to do is make an anonymous post saying it is not "x" but "y".
DeleteYou will note that Dr. Schlesinger's followers have 1) made a number of false statements which I have refuted 2) they claim that since he won he must be right 3) they huff and puff and say nothing of substance.
To retiterate - I am claiming that the court judgment is based on faulty reasoning, faulty assessments , deletion of evidence and as a result a ruling which was not in the best interest of the children was produced. My job is to present the evidence to support my contention. If I am covering up, distorting or manufacturing evidence - Dr. Schlesinger need only publish the refutation from the documents in his possession.
Ilan, I can't see anything written by Beth, I'm afraid. What DT has posted has Esra's name on it and then something that looks like it's a court document.
DeleteIt would be an interesting exercise to go through all the past blog posts about this Schlesinger case on Daas Torah. We would then find all the comments made by anonymous posters in favour of the father and making their wild accusations against the mother. Underneath their allegations, we would show the links to the subsequent posts showing evidence and facts to refute these claims.
ReplyDeleteWe have yet to see a shred of evidence to back up ANY of the claims made the father's supporters against the mother in their anonymous comments. Remember Sarah?
The father wants it both ways. He doesn't want to take part in the publicity, yet wants to get his sick message out there somehow. Well, he has achieved that, we can all see just how sick he is! Gd help those children.
It is interesting that it was three years that Beth and Michael were married before she bore the twins. If Michael thought that Beth had mental issues
ReplyDeletewhy did he stay with her? Why did he
have children with her?
After birth it is natural for any mother to be extremely tired and to need
support. Michael did not give Beth any
support, but did the opposite, by
kickeong her when she was low having
little sleep, as all mothers do with
newly borns. In this case, her load was
double with twins
Most women would have been depressed having to look after two
babies, whilst living with an emotional
and physically abusive husband.
Beth is a saint to have coped in the circumstances and needs
commending.
It is interesting how the father was evicted from the apartment, was only given supervised visits and then,
suddenly, after 18 months managed to
manipulate the situation and get
custody!
How can this be?
This man's a manipulator, Larry. That's the only explanation I can find for the extraordinary things that have happened in this tragic case. First he manipulated the beautiful, intelligent young Englishwoman he met in the romantic city of Paris by creating the image of a Prince Charming, then he manipulated her again by getting her to marry him so fast, once more when the twins were there and he went into complete control freak mode. The doctor had already manipulated his shrink friend who claimed to the police one night that the mother was mad (without even knowing her!) but the mother refused to play along and foiled his manipulation, intended this time to land her in a psychiatric facility. The next person to be manipulated was 'Janet', who has already featured on this blog for her treachery, also Judge Konstanze Thau, then Judge Susanne Göttlicher, Rabbi Biderman and his kindergarten teachers, and along the way, the Vienna Jewish community. And who are the victims? Two innocent little boys who I dearly hope someone will invite to Pessach. This could even be an opportunity to talk to the father and to see how much the twins are suffering from mother-deprivation.
ReplyDeleteAs Esther Lowenstein had correctly said Michael Schlesinger is a manipulator. He wooed Beth, when she met him in Paris. He would not allow her to get to know him better and go to Vienna unless she married him. She was young and innocent and he swept her off her feet. Beth did everything to please him although he constantly abused her physically, emotionally and verbally. This is what abusers do to their captives! It is fantastic that she finally had the courage to end the marriage! Michael was then able to go on manipulating all he came into contact with trying to show Beth to be a weak, pathetic little girl who couldn't cope and was incapable of mothering her children. He did everything on his power to break her. He, nor the Court, nor the Austrian Jewish community have given any good reason why Michael Schlesinger was given custody. They have also not given any good reason why Beth has been denied custody.
DeleteI wonder if the boys can recite Ma Nishtana this year and whether Beth will be present to hear it?
ReplyDeleteWe don't hear too much about the boys these days and how they are doing in the father"s custody.
Do any of the Jewish community invite Sammy and Benji to their homes. Do they have play dates with their
children? Are they on par with their other children of their age?
Let's hear from the father and his supporters anwers about these questions.
what I meant is simple: what we get to see here is a TRANSCRIPT of the ORIGINAL, which may be changed, by whoever transcribed it (presumably Beth?). If we get to see a FULL SCAN of the entire original document, that would be better, as this is tamper proof. I am not saying anyone has translated badly, I just want to see the original itself to judge better
ReplyDeleteHaven't seen the boys in lg today
ReplyDeletewhat is lg and how is this relevant?
ReplyDeleteI have said it before - even if dr S was a tzadik,my sense of natural justice says that kids at that age need a mother more than once a week for a couple of hours. They need a home - a woman is a home not 2 filipinos. I asked why he had not remarried so his kids would have a home - maybe the Austrian jewish community is afraid of letting their daughters marry a man who tried to put his ex wife into a mental facility and take the kids away from here. I can appreciate how people may have been manipulated and mislead by dr S but now they have the opportunity through this blog etc to admit their mistakes and do teshuvah.
ReplyDeleteIsn't he still married to the mother of his sons? Getting married again would be bigamy in Austria! The only divorce referred to so far as I recall has been the get but that's not sufficient in a country where civil marriage and divorce are compulsory.
DeleteWho would ever want to marry Michael Schlesinger even when he is divorced? Who would ever want to marry anyone from the
DeleteAustrian Jewish community?
Not one of them has come out and given any good reason why
Beth should be denied her sons, eccept something stupid like she denied a queue of cleaners! Where were her friends?
It is clear that the court was given
corrupted evidence and influence was put on them. The corruption went from the lower court upwards!
They never thought that Beth would put up such a fight. They
thought they would quietly get rid
of her, back to England. She
would just desert her children
Their plot has backfired and no one in Austria is able to give one
good reason why Beth has been
denied her boys In this way.
What is driving them in Austria to look so hostile and idiodic in the
eyes of the world? Why do they
want to give themselves such a
bad name?
Perhaps someone can explain!
It seems clear is that the evidence produced to the court regarding Beth's mental state was corrupt.
ReplyDeleteEvidence produced by Rabbi Biderman
was not justified, as he had no qualifications to give his opinion
regarding the children s psychological
state.
Items such as Beth inability to insert
suppositories after a Brit were used
against her. Expert opinion regarding
suppositories on infants after a brit
taken into consideration
The judge just said that Beth should
have known how to use them, or had
the intelligence to look it up on the
Internet as she had done!
Why were the medical reports stating that Beth had never suffered any depression or mental illness not considered, just the corrupt one givem by a psychiatrist who had never met Beth?
Why were witnesses interviewed by
the judge behind closed doors?
How come Dr Schlesinger and Rabbi Biderman were in direct contact with the judge by phone or by email.
The list goes on. Do we not see bias here? Do we not see corruption?
The judge just said that Beth should
Deletehave known how to use them, or had
the intelligence to look it up on the
Internet as she had done!
I love this one. It's a shame the judge didn't google the recovery requirements of a c-section:What's recovery like after I leave the hospital?
Expect to need help – and lots of it – once you get home. If nobody offers, ask for support from your partner, parents, in-laws, and friends. If you're worried that you may not have enough support, hire paid help if you can afford it.,,
Since you're recovering from major abdominal surgery, your belly will feel sore for some time. Take it easy and avoid heavy household work or lifting anything heavier than your baby for eight weeks.
Yet no issues leaving the mother without any support just 8days after a c-section and right after the two infants also had minor surgeries causing them increased pain and fussiness. As well as the grueling after care of the infants.
Giving proper after care for one infant is hard work, I can't imagine for two, especially if their schedules don't coincide. Having a c-section recovery on top of that... But no problem with the father checking out... unbelievable.
I doubt they had Bris days after c section . They ere preemie Bris probably month later
DeleteHow do you know they were preemie?
DeleteThis is why this case is such a farce Rabbi Tzadok. None of it makes any sense!
ReplyDeleteWas Beth supppsed to be Superwoman, whilst the father did nothing to help her, but has been
recognised in Austria as Superman?
Are they having a laugh over there in
Austria?
The crime is that it is the expense of
two young children!
Barbaric!
There was a new post about the Schlesinger twins today morning, with the court testimony of the au-pair... What happened to it?
ReplyDeleteIf the father feels that the court has presented justified reasoning for denying Beth custody of her children,
ReplyDeletehe should ask DaasTorah to publish it
Michael Schlesinger seems to be enjoying all the attention whilst people in his midst are being scared and threatened!
@flower and RMT
ReplyDeleteClarificiation - I have in fact not read all the documents in the case.
I have gone through the original judgment, the ESRA Psychiatirc report, the followup psychiatric reports including the police report after the attempt to commit Beth - the follow up reports have rejected the findings of the court psychiatric report, the psychiatric report that was the basis of the judgment, some of the appeal document,written testimony from some of Beth's supporters, seen videos of the twins as well as seen them by skype and I spoke with Reb Rosenberg who talked directly with an number of people involved and confirmed what Beth has told me.
The above information indicates something seriously irregular is going on. Rabbi Tzadok originally raised the same questions as @flower is now raising. I responded that I had seen the documents. Rabbi Tzadok assumed that means I had seen all the documents when in fact I have seen most of them.
I am at least as aware of the concerns of having information provided by one side of a custody case. I also am aware of the question of assuming that the legal system being corrupt or incompetent, the rabbis corrupt, incompetent or afraid and finally that the community is afraid to deal with an apparent injustice.
I have asked for Dr. Schlesinger or his supporters to make a statement - all that they have produced is a lot of noise, a lot of nasty statements and some false accusations. They have not produce a cogent statement explaining why Dr Schlesinger has gotten custody. Some of the supporters have produced clearly incoherent and/or false accusations about me. I assume this is just the nut fringe - but it doesn't make his case any better.
Bottom line, 1) why did Michael get custody after being accused of abuse by Beth and trying to get her commited to a mental hospital? I have seen no reference to him getting a psychiatric exam. 2) if Beth is considered a harmful parent - why is she getting unsuperived visits? If she is not harmful then why doesn't she have overnight or overweekend visits? 3) why is Beth denied knowing what is going on in their kindergarten? 4) why did Rabbi Biderman forward confidential emals to Michael and Judge Thau? 5) why is Beth being denied knowledge about the twins therapy? 6)why are the twins not able to speak properly - despite the expert testimony that they were able to speak long sentences in 3 languages? 7) why is their religious training being neglected? 8) why did Reb Rosenberg tell me that the Jewish community is afraid - who is intimidating them? 9) perhaps even more troubling is why the twins are being raised by two filipinos instead of their mother
@flower you obviously are not bothered by these questions because 1) the Austrian system had made its declaration and it is unreasonable that they have made such a blatant error 2) the information is coming from Beth and her supporters and can be ignored because of 1) -
So it is simply a judgment call at this point. My judgment is that there is enough evidence that something is seriously wrong and the case needs to be reopened and your judgment says there is no basis for concern.
after looking at some old posts I do have to say that your clarification comes a bit late.
DeleteOn April 4th, RMT postet following comment on your blog, referring to the court documents:
"Now, as I have said before(and admittedly most recently) that DT says that he has seen all the documents, and that is good enough for me. I trust him."
Why didnt you react then and let him (and us) know, that you had in fact not seen ALL documents?
@DT
ReplyDeleteThank you for this clarification, I appreciate your honesty and integrity.
I understand that there are alot of unanswered questions here. My suggestion to you: Ask for the complete reasonings of the courts, and my prediction is, that ALL but one of your questions will be answered. And if I may make another suggestion: only AFTER you have access to this information, and you are still very much convinced of a conspiracy, only then should you provide your online platform for distributing hate and lashon hora.
The one question that will not be answered, and frankly, makes me wonder myself is, why did Rabbi Biderman really forward Beths Email to Schlesinger and Thau.
It is indeed a good question, but hardly backs the conspiracies that are being circulated.
so FLOWER you seem to be in the 'know', familiar with court people, are you?
DeleteYes Leah, I am not a lawyer, but I have some experience with the way the system works in Austria. I am not sure what you are tying to imply.
DeleteWhy won't Rabbi Biderman answer this question? He's a rabbi! If he can't or refuses to give a reasonable explanation, how will anyone be able to respect him or trust him?
ReplyDelete@Jeremy
ReplyDeleteI dont know if anyone has asked him.
My opinion is, he forwarded the mail because of some twisted sense of loyalty to the Schlesingers, who daven in his Shul. Thats also why I woudnt consider him impartial in this matter.
No he definitely is on the Schlesinger side. He gives honours to the father in his Shul and he told the court that the boys were doing well psychologically
ReplyDeletein his school when one of them was
self harming. He apparently called in a
psychiatrist but no psychiatric
assessment was submitted to the
court, just his own. What qualifications
does Rabbi Biderman have to issue
such an inadequate psychological statement?
flower is belligerent, like a lawyer, and insists that Austrian courts are not centers of corruption. Well, power flower, how about these stories and news headlines, which, when read together, tell us there's a lot going on in Austrian courts which unbiased members of the public might just interpret as corruption:
ReplyDelete* A judge from Burgenland ignored the law so he could end a civil case quick smart pronto. The judge was convicted of abusing his authority as a judge. In the meantime he has retired. http://diepresse.com/home/recht/rechtallgemein/1471733/Hochstgericht-verurteilt-arbeitsscheuen-Richter
* A kafkaesque interrogation at the Döbling court in Vienna http://birdflu666.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/kafkaesque-interrogation-at-vienna-court-are-the-baxter-charges-behind-this/
* State prosecutors who "forget" files that are found to have been left behind in the cupboard
* Unnecessarily long proceedings both at the prosecution and in court, during which much is either forgotten or comes under statutes of limitations
* Courts that pronounce only unjustifiably mild sentences and electronic ankle monitors instead of jail terms
* Judge Konstanze Thau accused of bias and unlawful conduct in court
http://www.wikilegia.info/wiki/index.php?title=Mundtot_durch_Entmuendigung
* Several rejection appeals have been made over the years to remove Judge Konstanze Thau for bias
http://www.wikilegia.info/wiki/index.php?title=Thau
* A judge from Vorarlberg in the west of Austria was convicted for abuse of his authority http://www.salzburg24.at/amstmissbrauch-vorarlberger-richter-in-salzburg-schuldig-gesprochen/3489675
@Fred
DeleteJudges are also humans and can make mistakes.
You are basically proving the fact that a participant in a lawsuit has the possibility to get the legal pocess investigated, if she/he feels that justice was corrupted.
In the Schlesinger case, numerous claims to different investigations against judges were made. As of now, I didnt hear of any outcome confirming the claims of corruption.
Personally, I dont believe in corruption in this case, because it went through different instances. And to suggest that different courts were corrupted is in my opinion as much conspiracy theroy as saying that the Jews are responsible for 9/11.
The trouble is that each person or Court is protecting the next. Judge Thau is centre to this as she knows the Schlesinger family very well
ReplyDeleteShe is a judge in the Higher Court and is able to pull strings on those judges
in the lower court. Judges in the lower
court are not like our judges in England who progress through the ranks to become judges. They just go to judge school and are on very low pay. Easy
to corrupt and manipulate.
The supreme court just gave their decision as "DENIED" no explanation!!
The investigations were not done externally and even if they were certainly did not want to expose the
corruption, as that would lead to lack of confidence in the system!
If you think I am wrong please submit the court's reasoning, or ask Dr Schlesinger to do so!
"You are basically proving the fact that a participant in a lawsuit has the possibility to get the legal pocess investigated, if she/he feels that justice was corrupted."
ReplyDeleteflower has gone (but will be instantly recognizable if they come back under a new moniker) but what they said here is not what I was trying to show. What my list of links shows is that there are judges in Austria who get prosecuted for corruption and members of the public who feel that what they have experienced in court (especially the elderly lady in the Bank Austria case involving, among others, the dubious Konstanze Thau) = corruption. Knowing that judges and lawyers often tend to interpret situations wrongly or deliberately attempt to have clearly innocent people with proof against them prosecuted, whether in Austria or elsewhere, I believe Beth Schlesinger to have been the victim of bias emanating from the intervention by Judge Thau and Rabbi Biderman, even if no courts have been willing to investigate this matter properly.
Now just wait for flower to reappear.................
@ Recipients and publicity
ReplyDelete"See for yourself how powerful he is, in spite of everything he keeps his job/s.."
Would just like to mention briefly that this may not be entirely correct. Am not sure of the details but quite a while back I remember hearing that the father had been asked to leave his intern's position, to put it nicely. He did spend several months working for a family doctor in his practice however and so the big question is: where is he now?
His pal - you know, that scary shrink who diagnoses people he's never met - appears to liaise between the Otto Wagner hospital on the Baumgartner Höhe in Vienna and the Wilhelminenspital, which is almost next door and where Dr Schlesinger was listed as an intern last year.
The OW hospital is actually advertizing posts for psychiatrists so how much do you want to bet Dr Schlesinger's managed to worm himself in there, with a little bit of help from his friend?
But no matter what kind of job he currently has, would anyone here like to be seen by a dr like him, who abuses his wife and children? I doubt he could get a job without what they call "Protektion" in Austria, in other words,with someone pulling strings for him.