The Rebbetzin is the wife of Rav Sariel Rosenberg from Bnei Brak - a major talmid chachom and posek who is a member of the beis din of Rav Karelitz. She is very actively involved in helping woman who have lost the custody of their children. She has visited Vienna a number of times and spent much time investigating Beth's case and she was appalled at the lack of support for Beth as well as how the twins have suffered. I asked her to write a guest post of what she has found.
Below is her 5 page letter translated in full from the Hebrew followed by the Hebrew original she sent me for posting here. In the first part she describes the tragic story of Yael which led her to Vienna to raise money for lawyers and where she found out about Beth. She describes in great detail the great miscarriage of justice and the reasons the community - which is known for it kindness and generosity - has failed to intervene.
Below is her 5 page letter translated in full from the Hebrew followed by the Hebrew original she sent me for posting here. In the first part she describes the tragic story of Yael which led her to Vienna to raise money for lawyers and where she found out about Beth. She describes in great detail the great miscarriage of justice and the reasons the community - which is known for it kindness and generosity - has failed to intervene.
============================
חוות דעת משפחת שלזינגר, וינה by Rebbetzin Miriam Rosenberg
All these people are speaking out, yet still no word from any chabad rabbi.
ReplyDeleteThe Vienna Chabad rabbis must be cowards. Presumably, all they care about is MONEY and certainly not about the welfare of children. And why have so many Chabad rabbis and other members of this group been convicted of abuse?
DeleteNot yet in Vienna though ......
DeleteWe know Beth's case is not unique! It is great that there are so many people around the world who will not put up with injustices, including you dear
ReplyDeleteRebbitzen. People say that no one can
interfere with the legal system as
courts have to be respected. However
in Beth's case no reasoning for the
Courts decision has been shown.
Therefore as there appear to be
problems in how courts deal in certain
cases where judges decisions are
flawed, as they are not showing proper
and fair reasoning laws need to be
changed. Because this can take time, a retrial must be ordered.
There will be a retrial - and if there is any more funny business, as there wasin the previous one, the whole world is going to speak up about it!
DeleteThere will be no retrial. Beth has exhaused all her appeal options. Even the Supreme Court of Austria has already ruled against her and she has no more judicial avenue to go to. At some point all court cases run out and a decision is final. Otherwise people would remain in litigation forever.
DeleteNat,
DeleteIf you really felt this way,why do you waste your time reading a blog like this? Furthermore, why would expend effort commenting?
Of course, if your intention is deceit and destruction of these two precious boys, then it is indeed understood.
True Chosid,
DeleteI'm just stating the legal reality. All court cases become final at some point. Once it was through the Supreme Court the decision is final. This is just a legal reality whether you agree with the outcome or not.
A father has every right of having custody of his sons.
ReplyDeleteThat is what we are told when we agree with the hashkafa of the faither ala Friedman and Weiss. But here the children face the danger of being brought up as Chabad, and it is better that they be raised by a moderately religious mother than a devout Chabadnik.
DeleteA mother has every right to a fair judicial process.
DeleteVisitor, please do not ever post anything on any website ever again as you are not a qualified member of the human race.
True, but so does the mother! Nobody has the right to keep a child away from either parent and should do everything possible to ensure that children have access to both of their parents. Which is clearly not the situation here!
DeleteThe bias against father's having custody of their children is silly and rightfully disregarded.
DeleteYou're right, a father does have the right for custody of his sons, but when the children are now 5 years old and they don't talk, even though they say they can speak 3 languages, everyone knows that he is lying, yet they are unable or unwilling to speak out, for fear of repercussions, in this case, this father, does not have the right to look after his children, as he does not care for them like a loving parent should, maybe, you're one of his sympathisers, or are him, speaking as a visitor, unknown to anyone.
DeleteA mother has every right (and MORE), you unwelcome "visitor", to having custody of the children she bore! Or did the father have them, perhaps?
DeleteWhy does this father constantly lie? How could he tell a paediatric neurologist that his children speak so many languages when they don't? What kind of person is this? One that the IKG (Jewish Community in Vienna) is PROUD of?
DeleteHe fathered the birth of his children and he has all the rights to have custody of them. Certainly as much as her.
DeleteInteresting how those who seek to support the father, fail to address the very substantive issues. They refuse (are too chicken?!) to submit a guest post. Yet, they continue to come and "comment" on here, with empty and circular arguments.
DeleteThe issues are that the children are unfortunately, and sadly, doing terrible in the fathers care. To make matters worth (or, more accurately, this is the cause!) the father keeps the mother away from the children. He is seeking to chase her out of Vienna. He charges her 50 Euro for every visit (cut out the excuses, they've all been covered). He cancels the very limited visits on a continuous basis.
Is this the type of father who should have custody of his children? To the sane mind, no. (And that includes most Chabad chasisdim as well. We aren't talking about those who've been blinded by a few bucks out in Vienna.)
Thank you Daas Torah for posting this account...
ReplyDeleteI shudder to think how this would have been totally covered up without the internet...
And, in communities that don't have the internet??... Maybe nobody tries to act cruel in the first place???
Maybe...
We see how vital it is for the thousands and thousands of wronged mothers around the world (and also occasionally wronged fathers) to have access to the Internet. No way can their use of this fantastic tool be criticized when they are doing their utmost to publicize court-licensed abuse of their children. Everywhere. Not only in Vienna.
DeleteWhat is the story of why Mrs. Rosenberg and her ex-husband got divorced (and then engaged in a custody dispute)?
ReplyDeleteThe father didn't accepted the fact that the girls become religious
DeleteWe are dealing with the (horror) story of Beth and her twins, not with that of the writer of the above text. Rosh Yeshiva, you are introducing irrelevancies.
DeleteMrs. Rosenberg's personal case surely may color her views on these types of matters.
DeleteNo, RY, her case was obviously very different. No comparison at all.
DeleteRosenberg is not unbiased.
DeleteVisitor and RY,
DeleteDo you have any substantive defense of Micheal Schlessinger or Rabbi Bidderman?
Projecting your and their shortcomings upon others is not a meaningful defense.
There is no reason why Dr. Schlessinger should not continue having custody of his two lovely sons. But Beth should be given additional time in visitation hours.
ReplyDeleteNo reason why he should not continue having custody??? Have you not read any of the previous blog posts on this topic???
DeleteThe father is neglecting the children, he has had their teeth removed without providing any explanation, the children are not developing like other children their age, he regularly illegally cancels the mothers visits, and it is only as a result of corruption that he has the children in the first place!
Do you understand now why your comment is incorrect and should be regarded as irrelevant (along with everything else you post)?
BT, as usual, you are supporting a man who has committed several crimes: there are umpteen reasons why Dr Schlesinger (who is not a psychiatrist,BTW - the rebbetzin has got that bit wrong) has wrongly been granted custody of those two poor little children.
DeleteWell said BT. You are 100% correct.
Delete@ BT and Visitor You should read Nelson Mandela, who was not talking about their father and Sammy & Benji when he commented, "A person who robs another of his freedom is a prisoner of his own hatred."
DeleteThis very true statement could equally well apply to them, however. The father has robbed his children of their freedom to be with their mother and is indeed a prisoner of his own hatred of her. Should we feel sorry for him?
I must give "Visitor" and "BT" (one-and-the-same?) credit. They have adjusted their position. That does take a lot of work, and it is indeed very meaningful. B"H. Congratulations!
DeleteThey now say that the boys should be able to spend more time with their mother. As a starting point they certainly agree that the father should immediately cease to cancel scheduled visitations. Of course they agree that arraignments should be made that the twins should see their mother, without their mother having to pay to see them. And much more meaningful time should be added.
Very well. But a lot more has to be done. Kindly, however, begin doing these things. This may give you an opportunity to quiet the storm. Of course, if you're just seeking to hurt others in your silly revenge game, then....
I agree that should be done. But if, as you say, the mother will continue waging her war against her ex husband to take away full custody from him, I cannot imagine him agreeing to additional and easier and free visitation for her. (All of which are things I think he ought to do.)
DeleteShe would have to compromise in dropping her other demands and ceasing her Public Relations war for him to agree to give her more time at no charge and no hassle.
Why should this father have custody? What makes him a better parent than the mother?
ReplyDeleteWhy should this mother have custody? What makes her a better parent than the father? Since there is no reason to change it should remain as is with her given liberal visitation.
DeleteVisitor - you've got it wrong again! Have you not compared the photos of the boys with their mother and without? She has also talked about how their faces light up on seeing her and how they can hardly bear to be parted from her. They are obviously much happier with her than with whatever women are unlovingly taking care of them at least. And going by the reports one hears/reads, probably also much happier with their mother than with their father. Their father and the anonymous carers are not teaching them to speak like other children! That is a very important reason for change of custody.
DeleteWithout taking sides on thids issue, at least the vienna community shiuld be praised in that they support one of their own, unlike here in america, where rabbonim often takr sides against their own congregxnts, and nobody cares.
ReplyDeleteMiMedinat HaYam
Support should always be given to the person who has suffered injustice, regardless of whether that individual is from "inside" or "outside".
DeleteThere is nothing praiseworthy about taking the side of one's own. It is actually the opposite of praiseworthy, because when personal ties come into the equation, that disqualifies the person's involvement. So one who remains involved to support someone for such reasons is actually preventing justice, and if his 'side' happens to be wrong, then the supporter is an accessory to the injustice being committed.
DeleteHold on guys. A Chasidah is a type of bird which is treif - non-kosher. Why is it called a chassidah? Why is it non-kosher?
DeleteRashi tells us that it is called a chassidah since it is kind to its own kind. But this is precisely what makes it non-kosher. That it is only kind to its "own" type/community.
It is not a positive trait. It is a negative trait.
Actually, perhaps an article / post on a rav 's obligation in halacha (with marei mekomot, etc.) to his congregants would be appropriate.
ReplyDeleteMiMedinat HaYam
Dear Visitor,
ReplyDeleteUnder what law does a father have every right to have custody of his children?
First, in every society mothers are the primary-care givers of children. This constitutes a 'contractual agreement' under 'habitual custom', and therefore, under contract, civil law, mother's should be given preferential consideration in custodial decision. Also, Austria is signatory to the CEDAW & the Convention on the Rights of the Child, and under intl. law a govt. has an obligation to protect victims of domestic abuse (A vs. UK, Velasquez vs. Honduras & Gonzales vs. USA). So once again the actions of the courts in Beth's case are in violation of the law.
Everyone keeps on throwing out the 'defense' of 'judicial independence' in their 'inability' to do anything in this (or other) cases. The violation of the rights of women and children ARE NOT protected under 'judicial independence' under any domestic or intl. law. The rhetoric here needs to change to - "These decisions & actions of judicial actors are illegal & constitute human rights violations. And, govts. have an OBLIGATION to assure 'transparency & accountability' of judicial actors, holding everyone (judges included) responsible to the letter of the law. The failure of govts. to take appropriate disciplinary action of 'rogue' judges, make them complicit to human rights violations."
So I repeat my question - under what LAW are you pretending that a father gets custody of his kids just because he wants it? Please join us in the 21st century -- women and children are not chattel of men to be violated & abused at his whim!!
Quenby Wilcox
quenby@global-xpats.com
That is completely incorrect. Father's have all the same right the be awarded custody of their children. Mother's should not be given preferential decision in awarding custody. That is completely against Jewish Law and most countries secular law.
DeleteVisitor - you are off the planet- Quenby Wilcox is a well-known international expert and know far more about this than you ever will. "Guest" above has already attempted to indicate your ignorance. A father who has committed crime after crime does not have the right to have custody of his sons - he should be behind bars and the children with their mother.
DeleteHe is as much as "expert" in morality and what the correct laws are, as the guy sitting next to me in the subway.
DeleteVisitor,
DeleteIs that your best response? This a story about the lives of two children. How can you a caring and civil person be so coarse about them and their very lives?
Visitor - you're a cynic, so I hope you're not in the vicinity of those 2 little boys. You'd be very lucky to have Ms Quenby Wilcox sitting next to you on the U6 - SHE's a world expert on domestic violence and law and could teach you a lot. Take a peek at:
Deletehttp://helpbeth.org/guest-post-by-quenby-wilcox-founder-of-safe-child-international/
http://www.safekidsinternational.org/
and learn something instead of making remarks which tell us you must be very near to the Schlesinger family.
I know the Rosenbergs. The father is the Rosh Beth Din of Rav Nissim Kareletz's Beth Din, he is the son-in-law of Rav Nissim Karelitz who is the head of the Beth Din but older. The rebbetsin I spoke to about my halacha issues and if she is helping Beth she is going to get helped. How can it be that this story only is revealed by one Israeli lady and the rest of the world is terrified? Does the Talmud not teach, "Children cannot forgive?"
ReplyDeleteThere are similar cases in many parts of the world, as you know, Rabbi Eidensohn. The pattern is always the same: domestic violence by father, mother accused of being mentally ill by father, court-licensed abuse of children, who are then given to the father, everyone is terrified to say a word. This rebbetzin is courageous and caring: much more than any of the people supposedly caring for the two boys in Vienna or any of the leaders of the Vienna community.
DeleteThe father did not agree that the girls will be frum
ReplyDeleteThe father sends the boys to an Orthodox Yeshiva.
DeleteThis is irrelevant here. We are talking about the Schlesinger twins and not about other children.
DeleteSo happy that Beth has the support of some strong religious women to guide her and reaffirm her in such a difficult situation. Well done Miriam on speaking out for womens rights in a very patriarchal setting and telling things as they are without fear of retribution as these other community members are claiming...how shameful. Keep the communication flowing and lets have some guidance from professional people in the SYSTEM as to if there are any channels that Beth can pursue with the support of all of us around the world (and any connections we may all have) to challenge this current stupid custody decision.
ReplyDeleteWell said, ev meyer! Are there not any professional people in the Vienna community who know how the legal system can be challenged? It can't be that there are several thousand in the IKG and that none of them is a law grad of some kind who is able to advise Beth what to do next to get her kids back! With so many influential people in the community, there must be enough who would be able to offer her some assistance. Vienna is a city where practically everything works according to who and not what you know. We know the president and the lord mayor will do anything to make sure Jews are treated well (after what they went through about 75 years ago), but have they given any thought to the fact that this time, the situation is most unusual in that it is Jew vs Jew? Their usual support of Jews is not going to work here. So let's ask the president, whose wife's father was in a concentration camp, and the lord mayor, whose first wife was Jewish, what they plan to do to save the lives of two little Jewish boys. They may not be lawyers themselves but everyone in Vienna knows that the outcome of a certain no of court cases each year is predetermined. Why did one of them have to be the fate of the Schlesinger twins? Pres Fischer and Lord Mayor Häupl, please tell us!
ReplyDeleteheinz.fischer@hofburg.at michael.haeupl@wien.gv.at
DeleteAsk President Fischer and Bürgermeister Häupl to explain the irrational support that is being given to the boys' father, rather than to their mother. The government must be behind it. Tell them what the world thinks of Vienna's Jewish community!
And don't forget Robert Heinrich I, the emperor!!!
DeleteIt's again noticeable that the father's supporters and probably he, himself are the ones who make the most absurd comments. The unfortunate twins are stuck with them for the time being (but not for ever), which can only be to their detriment. Why was custody given to a man who, along with his family and friends, is not even capable of taking part in a discussion in a mature manner?
DeleteNo one takes the court of Karelitz seriously, especially not this obviously ,right from the beginning, biased Rebbetzin. I bet the kids were completely intimidated by this overbearing woman.
ReplyDeleteNo one takes "no one takes... seriously" comments seriously.
Deletedown to earth,
DeleteAre you biased when children can't talk and get their teeth yanked for no reason?
Chaim,
DeleteWell said!
If this guy wouldn't be taking Harav Karelitz seriously, would he spend his time and expend effort on making such a comment?
Of course, if his intention was deceit - or a pair of new clothes for the emperor- then it is all understood!
It is utter nonsense to say, the court was corrupted. 9 judges in total took their decision. It is over!
ReplyDeleteIf orders have come from above, courts in Austria ARE corrupted. In the past 6 years such orders have been issued 130 times, 39 of them having involved so-called "VIPs" and great media interest. This was stated in parliament by the new Minister for Justice, Wolfgang Brandstetter, very recently. He aims at reforming this (corrupt) system and has already instigated investigations. So......"judges", youe. are wrong. Just because 9 judges agreed for some unknown reasons that the father is a better parent than the mother, it certainly does not mean that they were right or that they acted without orders from abov
DeleteSo declare war on Austria and march in and occupy Vienna.
DeleteThere are wars that are won by publicity, publicity of the facts until corruption melts. This is one of them. Of course, there are always people like you to stand up for torturing little children, and I wonder what your real name is.
DeleteThe clear problems with the courts have been covered in a very clear manner. If you have a substantive response, great. Let's hear it. But the way you're commenting here, and continuously repeating yourself, without addressing the issues makes you look very bad.
DeleteIt is utter nonsense to say, the court was corrupted. 9 different judges in total took their decision. It is over!
ReplyDeleteThere are not too many people here who back the judges and ignore the children. What is your name?
DeleteWhat reason did the 9 judges give for taking the children away from their mother to give the father?
ReplyDeleteNearly forgot to mention that I happened to see the boys in Vienna last week while I was out shopping, with a large Asian-looking woman with glasses. She was not talking to them at all and they had blank looks on their faces - no sparkle in their eyes at all, like happy, curious children have. Nobody who saw them that day could possibly have thought they came from a well-adjusted family with lots of humor, fun and stimulation. Just the opposite. I immediately felt very sorry for them because something was obviosly wrong for them to be looking so blank and sad. A sort of pervasive sadness like what you see in traumatized people.
ReplyDeleteSo can anyone from Beths team post a letter to heinz.fischer@hofburg.at michael.haeupl@wien.gv.at and put it out on the net onto that website that asks people to sign various petitions for injustices that they are suffering ( I think its called Chang.org)
ReplyDeleteI have witnessed people have lots of success through this channel.
" If 9 judges in total took their decision it is final" claiming that this decision must be right. If Adolf Hitler and all of his intelligent associates took their decision to gas all of the Jews, gypsies,homesexuals etc it must have been right as well I suppose since they were in power at the time so their decisions were final and right. Yes lets all just sit back and be nice quiet little good citizens of the world....please spare us your weak justifications "judges"
AGAIN LETS GET PRACTICAL....PROFESSIONALS ON CAMP BETH GIVE US GUIDANCE...every day these little innocent boys are getting severely damaged while we write letters to oneanother that arent actually helping them
These letters are helping, plenty. This destruction of children cannot continue. This blog is a forest fire that is growing and growing. Earlier the number of hits was in the twenty thousands, and now as we concentrate on Austria the number is over forty thousand. Those friends of the father are going to be famous. How long can it be before the judges feel the fire and fix this? If they are stubborn, they will be turned into mud in the whole world.
ReplyDeleteThe Supreme Court of Austria already reviewed the case and the decision was for the father. 50,000 web hits doesn't make a court change their court ruling.
DeleteImagine if the US Supreme Court issues a ruling and them some website against the ruling gets a million hits. You think the Supreme Court will change their ruling?
We are talking about a ruling that was a blatant miscarriage of justice, drc. There are enough rulings, also in supreme courts, that are completely wrong and condemn innocent people to lives of misery or even death. You sound as if you're very happy with this Austrian ruling that caused two innocent children to be taken from their mother for no good reason and suffer endlessly as a result. She is not an alcoholic, a drug addict, criminal or mentally ill. The father, on the other hand, might possibly be characterized by a description by EG Ryan that I just read from www.rawstory.com.
Delete"Abusers don’t want to be reasoned with. They have zero intention of trying to improve communications or make life better for the both of you. Walking on eggshells is what they want of their victim. They get off on feeling powerful, so they make up a bunch of arbitrary rules so they can punish you for breaking them (and forget it if you didn’t know that it was a “rule”—now you’re breaking the “you should have known” rule and they get to call you stupid) and they want you to walk around, afraid to piss them off. Abuse is best understood as a tyranny situation in that way."
how sad that the community will not stand up and are all so scared to speak. Just terrible. I am not sure how they all sleep at night knowing what is going on.
ReplyDeleteI have just read above that someone saw the boys out with a lady who showed no interest in them... How lovely.. They have a loving mother who should be looking after them. Michael Schlesinger wake up. Your boys need their mother. If there is a new case which I am sure there will be in time you may not be on such safe ground..
I praise Beth for all her determination. The boys are only damaged from the father not Beth. It is clear they need her.
If anyone has contact with any media, newspapers, etc. and can get the information on this blog publicized, it will help. But just reading about this helps. If forty thousand people come to this blog which is mostly about this Austrian case, those forty thousand people are doing something wonderful. And how wonderful it would be if those forty thousand people would write something on the blog to speak for the children who not only can't write, but can't talk.
ReplyDeleteWhat reason did the Supreme Court give for their decision.
ReplyDeleteAs I understand it they just wrote one word "DENIED" What reason did the other Courts give. No one can deny a mother her children for no good reason. . Can they?
Reb Dovid - may you be blessed for all your efforts in assisting in this grievous case. I would like to make the following suggestion:
ReplyDeleteIt appears to me that the Chabbad of Vienna are complicit in this and that not enough pressure is being exerted on them to help resolve an amicable outcome. It is my belief that the only way of doing so is through financial measures. Therefore; a standard letter should be sent to every local Chabbad returning any charity boxes explaining that until Chabbad showed active support for a fair and amicable settlement - they cannot be supported. Additional letters should be sent to any known businesses and prominent supporters; asking them to withdraw their support until this is rectified. A simple scouring of their regional websites - or look through their brochures will show their key supporters. Send them letters asking them to withdraw their support - or the reverse to support them increasingly should they bring about an end to this situation. I will begin doing this in London - and I will ensure that every prominent institution and benefactor is aware that they are complicit in such anguish. I am happy to lend support to whomever wishes to do this at any level.
Financial pressure of the Austrian Chabad will not change the father's position. At most he'll just ignore Chabad.
DeleteHendon yid, please can you connect with me on Facebook. Thanks.
DeleteHendon Yid,
DeleteIt seems that the community is locked into this for whatever reason, and banging on the head of the whole community in this blog is a real way of getting the message out. That message is: Keep up torturing little children and we will make sure everybody knows about it. If you want to make Austria into a slime sewer, you are doing a great job. So are we.
Reb Dovid, I agree entirely. And this should be one of the many places that promotes that message. However, with this particular instance I think that the courts system has run its course. We are reliant upon a softening of approach from the Father and the community have a responsibility to try and make him change his ways. I believe that the amazing work done in ALL OTHER aspects of Judaism done by Chabad should have seen them play an integral part in assisting an amicable resolution for the sake of the children and more widely - ahavat yisrael. The fact that in the 2 most prominent cases in the UK have considered Chabad as a hindrance is a massive slight on such a well respected institution. And I would not underplay their reliance upon people who would not support them should they be made aware.
DeleteI would suggest that the in appreciation section here is the best place to start:
ReplyDeletehttp://chabad.edu/media/pdf/618/WYkc6185728.pdf
Hendon Yid, I'm really not sure its worth the effort, the vast majority of chabad money comes from.. Chabad, their own people will never stop giving them money..
DeleteBut Lev Leviev and Ronald Lauder have more money than all the rest put together - they are the people who should be informed about the horrific maltreatment of children that the Vienna IKG is permitting through its silence and protection of a highly dubious father.
DeleteRebby. I am unsure where you come from - but in London I do not believe that to be the case. It is my intention to draft a letter that people can send on to their local Chabbad Rabbanim and and any benefactors that they are aware of. I want to spend some time thinking over the content but will post them both on this forum. Whilst there are major differences in the 2 cases, Rachael Neustadt made it clear that the Lubavitch community in Russia were also a sever impediment in reuniting her with her children. More info here: http://bringbackmyboys.org/
Delete
ReplyDeleteRichard Peters: Seems like in Austria the Supreme Court can just write one word for their decision but it does not usually happen like this. So WHO has intervened to make this case like no other? The silent Rabbi Biderman? President Heinz Fischer? Lord Mayor Häupl? Judge Konstanze Thau? Rabbi Pardes? The former Minister for Justice? The Austrian govt and Vienna City Council want to protect the Jewish community but if this is the way they are doing it, then it is very, very wrong and whoever is responsible for that single word "Denied", issued in record time and without explanation, needs to retract their orders to the court and do all within their clearly extensive powers to grant Sammy and Benji and their mother the justice that every resident of Austria expects and has the right to.
Sent from my iPhone
A suggestion, Hendon Yid, would be Mr Lev Leviev in London. His connections with Vienna, ie with Rabbi Biderman and with the IKG in Vienna are very strong, as he financed the Bucharian centre. One would presume he also funds the Chabad kindergarten, whose employees and boss Biderman (Vereinsobmann) appear to have perjured themselves in the Vienna family court (declaring the boys to be "doing well"). Dr Schlesinger may also be getting the kindergarten fees for his sons (he seems to be a poverty-stricken young doctor who fights in court via Legal Aid from a well-known Vienna law firm who, unusually, have taken his case on free of charge) directly or indirectly from Mr Leviev.
ReplyDeleteoh, you delusional ones!
Deletechabad does not getting any money from the Schlesingers. Furthermore, kindergarten is funded by the govt.
Sarah The Chabad schools are funded by Ronald Lauder and probably Lev Levia as well. Chabad is not self funded and
Deletecannot rely on Government money! They depend on
charitable money! The
Schlesinger are receiving money
from Mizrachi /ESRA to
supplement the father. He has
high legal costs and two
Philapinos to employ.
If the public are angry with Chabad why should they keep quiet. Their donors need to be made aware. It is only right!
Sounds like the father is not earning any money of his own! How can that be? He's supposed to be a doctor but I suspect that's not true. He pretended to be a psychiatrist when he wasn't (and isn't), so how often does he actually fail to tell the truth? And if he's knocking on every door for handouts, this will be a shameful example for the boys as they grow older and understand what's going on. A father who can't support them?
Deletecome again, the public is angry at Chabad -why? Because they accepted the children into their kindergarten? Because they claimed they were doing well in kindergarten (which incidentally, they are, eyewitness here)
DeleteChabad isnt claiming the children speak 3 languages and on par with their age group, just that they're doing well in school - they interact with others, they smile and play, they create crafts, they're happy in school - why is that such a difficult concept to understand?
Sarah I am pleased to hear the good things you mention about the boys, but as they are not on par with their age group, chabad
Deleteshould not be hiding them in the
kindergarten. The boys should be
assessed by an independent assessor to establish the cause of their lack of coherent speech in
any language and their needs.
Why is this this not happening?
obviously, their mom should have plently of time with them - no one is debating that.but why such anger? eludes me
DeleteA difficult concept to understand? It is. Why can't the boys speak in even one language coherently when they are almost five?
DeleteWhy has Chabad Rabbi Biderman submitted numerous voluntary statements to the courts to endorse the father and his custody battle? Why does the Chabad not allow the handovers be done in the school? Why does the Chabad Kindergarten disallow Beth on the premises EVEN when the children are not present? Why has no Chabad Rabbi spoken out against this injustice like other Rabbis around the world have?
DeleteWhy is there so much anger against Chabad? Because unlike Sarah, we are not brainwashed or corrupt.
Sarah you ask why the mother is angry. How would you feel if your husband tried to have you committed, waged a conspiracy
DeleteAgain staff you by getting false psychological reports against
you? Being portrayed to the world
as a nutter, when this is far from
the truth. FALSE ACCUSATIONS!!
On these false accusations and reports, Beth's children were
removed from her care! The father
has gone on insulting her and
ignored her pleas to have
increased visiting and have the
children independenly assessed
because they are under achieving
but has not done so. All the father
is interested in is custody, but
what has he done to deserve it?
If you were in Beth's shoes what
would you do? Would you sue the
father for defamation of
character? The father is lucky
she is not. All she wants is to care
for her boys. Why is the father so
vindictive and cruel, not only to
Beth but to their sons?
I would suggest Beth sues the
father for the liess and insults!
What do you think Sarah?
Again, I dont know the father and cant speak for him. But this hang up about Chabad is ludicrous! I have personally spoken to both kindergarten directors and they have told me taht they would love to be in contact with Beth, but the courts forbid it! I see this bears repeating - the courts forbid it!
Deletewith regard to Rabbi Biderman, I can assure you that he simply asked the teachers how the boys are doing in school and submitted their answers. He has far too much integrity to be involved in manipulating responses.
I am not brainwashed or corrupt. Chabad is getting no cash from having the schlesinger twins, I can promise that. Where do you pple come up with your wild ideas? Seriously? Who gives chabad cash for having the kids?
DeleteThe Chabad Kindergarten could speak to Beth and give her access to the school if the father gives his permission. It is not the court
Deletewhich is blocking Beth's access
to knowledge about what is
happening in her children's lives.
It is the father!. All he has to do
is give his permission. Why
doesn't he?
It all shows what a control freek he is and how he is trying to be awkward at the expense of his
sons!
. One day soon they will know if
they don't already how horrible he
is preventing them from having more contact with their mother. They know nnow . They just can't
verbalise. Convenient fot the
father that they can't speak or at
their ages tbey would already be
asking questions as to why they
can't be with their mama like
other children in their
kindergarten?
The school are not qualified to give a psychological report on children . In any case, even if they were in a cusody case such as
Deletethis an independent psychological report should be done on the
children, particularly as one was
self harming in the school and
they are behind par.
Why has this not been done?
What do the 9 judges say? On
what basis did they reach their
decision on custody?
If it is the father prohibiting the school speaking to Beth, you cannot blame the school or Chabad. They have no legal choice but to adhere to the custodial parent (the father's) instruction to them. They are legally prohibited to speak to someone the father prohibits them. The school and Chabad have no choice.
DeleteAnyone who is brainwashed or corrupt (or both) will always deny it when confronted, just like Sarah has done. She also refuses to comment on the following:
Delete1) ‘Rabbi’ Biderman has made voluntary statements to the court (most notably in May 2012) under his own name (not from the kindergarten office), in support of the father. Why would he do this? He clearly HAS involved himself so it is impossible for him now to claim he is impartial.
2) If ‘Rabbi’ Biderman’s position is justifiable, why are you defending him under anonymous comments on a blog? Why doesn’t he speak for himself and write a statement explaining his position as a guest blog post. This case has reached a large enough audience around the world with enough people posing genuine questions, for ‘Rabbi’ Biderman to be a man and answer some of them. His silence raises even more questions than the one’s posed to him here.
Until these points are addressed, we all are entirely justifiable in being angry at ‘Rabbi’ Biderman and his Chabad colleagues for being silent in the face of such an injustice.
when you show me said letters, I will personally call him and ask him!
Deletehows that?
I am happy to write letters if you can send me email addresses of all of the key players like Chabbad Vienna , the kindergarten, the synagogue, and whomever else you recommend we could WAKE UP !!!!!!! and demand some answers
ReplyDeleteI think you'll need to search for them on the net, ev, just like any of us would.
Deleteev meyer,
ReplyDeleteThat is a great idea. But writing the letters on this blog is also powerful as thousands of people come to the blog which is mainly concentrated now on this topic. But if you want to do both you will have a double mitsvah!
you mean; please post more letters to the blog, to drum up traffic? win- win here, Beth wins and so do you!
DeleteSarah it is not about Beth winning! It is about what the children are losing! The boys are being denied the lovs and care of their mothsr for no good reason. Are you a mother Sarah?
DeleteI think Sarah's a man. He/she doesn't sound like a caring person at all. I sure hope she/he's not taking care of Benji and Sammy. Another one of those dreadful people who wouldn't be a role model to anyone.
DeleteSarah, do you care about the boys or not? I think you're a man and lacking a heart. NOBODY IS WINNING OR LOSING! The boys need a fair go - that's all! The father seems to think he's in some kind of competition in which he has to defeat the mother but THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE! I wonder why you're supporting a man who, as a doctor (?), walked out on his sons when they were screaming with pain after their bris.........
Deletewhen people resort to personal attacks, you know their arguments lack merit.
Deletedont make that mistake rochel
This is not a personal attack.
DeleteSarah. The father does not seem to care that the boys love being with their mother. He resents it, Therefore he denies his sons their happiness through his spite.
Don't you think this is selfish?
If we could get more people to complain on this blog, and raise the number of comments, that would raise the temperature in Austria.
ReplyDeleteThey should be aware that they may use aliases and also change them each time they write. Otherwise, nobody from the community will write anything, the operative word apparently being "SCARED". The IKG seems not to be known for its members' courage, unlike the many Austrians who gave some of them shelter as "submarines" in Austria during World War II.
ReplyDeleteHeavens! WHY???
DeleteWhy should anyone be scared for speaking up and telling the truth. It will be harder in the long run for those who don't speak out now. Do the right
ReplyDeletething for the sake of two innocent
children who are not thriving in the
care of their father. They clearly need
their mother and these boys will grow up to despise all those people who kept quiet and didn't help them to be with their mama! Give the boys a chance!
Yes No one should be scared to speak out! They will be respected if they do.
ReplyDeleteLike you all had your mothers and many of you are mothers to your
children, these two little boys need their mother too. These boys can't speak but their sad eyes do! Don't let them suffer without their mother any longer. Your voice can make all the difference!
It's impressive the way the Hollanders are clubbing together to support the two little kids. You sound like really nice people - such a pity everyone here doesn't consider their welfare as the most important issue here.
DeleteTova aren't you Austrian. Can't you use some persuasive powers to convince your fellow Austrians to work together to bring some sense to this
ReplyDeletesituation. Perhaps you can enlist the help of the heads such as Oscar Deuch
Ariel Musikant, the Chief Rabbi and
any other people with authority in
Vienna.
I'm austrian and I'm not scared. Just confused. Until we hear both sides of the story, I have a hard time believing everythign Beth posts
DeleteBeth has stated her side of the story numerous times. Perhaps you can find out and tell us the Austrian side. The main question is why the Austrian community are chosing to be so hostile to a young Jewish mother?
DeleteI cant speak for the Jewihs community here, but I can explain my hostility. After she had the twins, I called her, wanted to help wiht cleaning help, saw her and the boys at a park - and it was clear she was not managing- and offered to help - and she just ignored all calls and hardly said hello when she saw me on the street. Then, months later, when I meet her, she's all into, check out my fb page, free the boys etc.
DeleteI dont like being played, thats it.
Im certain she is suffering, but on a personal human level she has alienated me - someone who tried to help.
Sarah. Perhaps you should have some compasion. How would you feel if you lost your children. Stop judging and help. If not for Beth's sake so that the children
DeleteDon't punish the children because the mother upset you.
sarah,
DeleteYou had a bad experience with someone who was floating in misery and despair. Your feelings were hurt. But understand her side also. Love your fellow as yourself applies here, surely to a person in such a confusing situation. I don't know if I would do it, but at least if you did help her it would be a big mitsvah.
Sarah where is your compassion?
DeleteYou tried to help. Cleaning hslp can be bought. Good kind friends can't! No wonder Beth rebuffed
you! How dare you say you tried
to help Beth. You have done
nothing. Maybe you should start
to put things right and tell us all
what you intend to do now to give
Beth proper support, kindness
and friendship. Wouldn't you expect the same if your husband
treated you in such diabolical
way?
surely I appreciate her situation and would love to help her regain custody. I dont see a plan or strategy to do that, other than: bash Chabad
DeleteCan someone who has any connection to the main institutions in Vienna (chabad, kindergarten etc) please send me email addresses ASAP. If Beths friends read this blog they must be able to get that info for me. Im sure many of the other women on this blog would be happy to flood their inboxes as well. Once your letter for Chabad has been composed I can forward it to the local Chabad here if its of anyhelp. Lets get the work done NOW !!!!! Let us not remain silent....
ReplyDeleteThe however sad reality is that even if she was totally wronged by all the courts she has completely exhausted all her possibilities in judicial relief or any possibility of the courts changing their verdict, as it has already cleared the highest court in the land. It's a simple, even if unfortunate, fact. The court options no longer exist for her.
ReplyDeleteAnd the courts are as a practical legal matter the final arbiters. She can't force a change in the custody decision outside of court. And she has no more court options. As sad as that may be it is the truth.
So obviously she is using public pressure in hoping the father will be embarrassed and agree to change. Clearly he will never willingly agree to give up custody. The best that can be hoped for is that he'd agree to give her more time with the kids. But from all appearances, considering everything including the long time he has been under public pressure and ignored it all, it seems apparent he is not bucking and not agreeing to any change. I don't think even if the Vienna rabbis pressured him he would bend any more than how he hasn't bent due to the public pressure. He will ignore local rabbinic pressure just as he has ignore this long and extensive public campaign against him.
The sad reality is that this situation won't change even with all this pressure.
Charles Katz,
ReplyDeleteunfortunately, I have to agree with you. Nothing that poor Beth or anyone else does will have any impact: not blogs, letters or pressure. The corrupted courts have spoken and the father is not going to be impressed by anything else. So sad, but there is nothing anyone can do now. I for one have given up hope.
Shalom,
DeleteThe father is single and has to marry. Who would marry someone who is getting clobbered every day in a blog with forty thousand visitors? If he wants to play games, we can also play games. Let's see who will win.
Reb Dovid,
DeleteSomeone just married Meir Kin even though he is already married!
drc,
DeleteLet's not look for reasons not to fight. Let's just fight and the reasons will take care of themselves.
I disagree with shalom and Charles. Firstly, the boys were taken away on a false psychological report on Beth. 1)The court has not given any clear
ReplyDeletereasons why the boys were actually
taken away from their mother's care!
2) The boys have failed to thrive in their father's care. They cannot speak
coherently in any language, at a month
of five.
3) The father isn't complying with the court order regarding visiting.
4) There have been no independent
professional assessments done on the
boys development, especially as they
are under achieving.
5) No assessments done on the father, as were done on Beth. We know Beth
has a clean bill of health. What about
the father?
6)It has not been shown why the Court decision is fair.
7) why is the reason for the court
decision being hidden? If it is is fair it
the father would have no hesitation in
publishing it!
8) Why is the Austrian Jewish Community being so hostile towards Beth?
9) Athough Sammy and Benji are unable to speak, no consideration is being given for their feelings.
10) what logical reason is there for these two boys to be deprived of their mother and a Jewish Community to be behaving so badly.
What answers will the father and the community give the boys when they one day will be able to speak and ask. Why were we not allowed to see our
mama?
Why wait for the boys to ask that question. It needs to be answered now!
Thank you for the facts from a legal perspective if accurate. So there are no international courts or avenues (like the Hague Law) that she can pursue? So if that is the case and the father is not prepared to budge at all due to his need to punish the mother for mistreating him in his eyes then public humiliation it shall be. The internet is a very powerful tool and I would not want my smeared name as a doctor going viral. The whole world needs to join in this campaign. I suggest that another petition on change.org is sent on the internet to highlight this story internationally once again. And by the way thank you Sarah from Austria for telling your story...the first thing we have heard from anyone lately from the community. I am glad that Beths supporters have not attacked Sarah for her opinions and honesty. As a mother I would like to express that some of us are not good at accepting help or at admitting to ourselves or anyone else that we are not coping with a situation...maybe that is what happened. Noone on this blog is saying that Beth is some angel who has done no wrong however we are going beyond the Mum and Dad in this scenario and concentrating on the childrens welfare and what is best for them and despite any custodial dramas, relationship dynamics and mental illness on either side kids NEED their Mum first and foremost and their Dads. This is not a personal opinion, it is a natural understanding of most citizens of the world
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your grounded balanced perspective ev
DeleteThe gemora Rosh HaShana 30a says that we have no Temple and we are mourning, but at the same time, we must talk about the Temple, we must talk about Moshiach. Talking about holy matters registers in heaven and good things can happen. But to be silent and to despair? This is not an option here.
ReplyDeleteAt the end of gemora Sota it talks about destruction of family in the End of Days. The Mishneh there says, "And we have no one to relay upon except out Father in Heaven." Reb Elchonon explained: This does not mean we despair and leave it to HaShem. It means we struggle to fight the evil and in that merit even if it seems impossible we merit divine assistance. That is our situation here. The thousands of visitors to the blog can do something, but what it cannot do in the natural world, can be done with heavenly assistance, but this assistance awaits our doing our part.
ReplyDeleteev meyer, you're right! The kids need their mum! As well as their dad, if he's a decent one. Their welfare is priority no 1! So we don't need people like "Sarah" from Austria telling us stories about the mother, who, I fear, may always have been one of her worst enemies. The style of her nasty little anecdote is very much like that of the other unpleasant people who have posted here and I'd strongly suspect that she might be the children's paternal aunt. I don't believe you wanted to help her at all, "Sarah". So please go away and let the rest of us try and work out some positive solutions for Benji and Samuel.
ReplyDeleteWhen Beth posts the full decision of the court and the decision of the Austrian Supreme court and it fits with what she is claiming then I will consider believing that the Austrian Jewish community is a group of rashaim that have deprived a mother of her sons. To this point I have only seen propaganda put out by Beth's side.
ReplyDeleteI don't really see how this is any different than any other woman who has turned to a media campaign when she did not get the results she wanted in B"D or courts. Please enlighten me with facts and documents, and not propaganda produced by Beth.
If you really are a rabbi, Michael Tzadok. I am glad you are not a rabbi of my shul!! How arrogant of you. So you think Members of Parliament, Barristers, lawyers, Board of Deputies have not seen documents. The important "Rabbi Michael Tzadok" wants facts and documents, and not propaganda, oh dear I hope you are not a community rabbi
DeleteWhile Beth, as a party to the case, was handed the decision of the court (the original trial court as well as the appeals court) that she lost the case in, to date she is adamently refusing to publish her copy of the court decisions -- despite her major PR campaign publishing all sorts of unsubstantiated allegations -- as she knows the actual court decisions contains damning evidence against her.
DeleteAnd she is afraid of the world reading the actual court decisions. So she refuses to publish the copy she was given when the verdict against her was rendered.
Victoria - your attack on RMT is totally off and betrays the rationality of your cause. Let the man ask for facts, why should it bother you? It can be justified rabbinically and humanely.
DeleteAs much as I join in the cry to seek ways that these two children should get the best that each parent has to offer them, media propaganda campaigns is not the way. It's not Torah and it's not justice, by any standards.
We should all be pressuring both Beth and Dr. S. to be dialoguing about what's best for the kids. If she wants to scream that the Austrian community are evil, then she has to be fully forthcoming with all relevant info.
he important "Rabbi Michael Tzadok" wants facts and documents, and not propaganda, oh dear I hope you are not a community rabbi
DeleteIf you want a Rabbi that goes off with no facts and just propaganda, that actually scares me, and makes me wonder to what level Judaism has fallen.
As far as trusting Members of Parliament, ever hear of George Galloway... if not look him up. Those were things he was saying about Jews in parliament. From his "research". A man who attested to the truth of the Potocols of the Learned Elders of Zion... Please being a Parliamentarian does not excuse someone from bias or bigotry, it just gives them a title to give it weight and platform to spew it from.
Without facts, without reading the actual court documents, no competent Rav should say anything one way or the other.
YY, Beth has not been given the status to dialogue about whats best for the chidren.
DeleteRabbi Michael Tzadok aligns British M.P.'s with George Galloway!!!!!
Interesting to know what his interpretation of lawyers, barristers and the British Board of Deputies would be!!!
Competent Rav?????!!!!!!!!
Rebbitzin Rosenberg describes as "truly righteous people" a couple that fixed up their "bum" of a son (who, and they knew about it, hated being religious and wanted out but also wanted money from his parents, whose marital difficulties he blamed for his hatred of religion) with a nice seminary girl, and then encouraged their son and daughter in law to get out of town (I'm not sure whether this was taking their kids along or before they were born) to keep the "bum" from spoiling his siblings' shidduch prospects. But they love "Yael" and think she's a great mother.
ReplyDeleteThe shadchanit who fixed "Yael" up with the "bum" knew about the bum's rocky home life.
Hashem yerachem.