Rabbi Wallerstein recently electrified the Aguda convention with his talk about correcting what is wrong with our educational system. He noted that even while the yeshivos and Beis Yaakov's are being successful in the intellectual side of teaching the classic texts and haskofa - they are not inspiring our youth in the beauty of Torah. While that is definitely true - there is a much greater problem. The Torah community has been bombarded with an unceasing chain of horrible scandals which are seriously damaging the emuna peshuto which the yeshivas and Beis Yaakov's have in fact inculcated.
The fraud and financial issues are terrible, but even worse are the cases of child abuse. However those cases - even though they are horrible - can be blamed on the individual's yetzer harah. In contrast the other scandals such as the Epstein-Wohlmark cattle prod gittin - reflect an apparent serious corruption of the halachic process. The most devastating scandals for Klall Yisoel are the one that destroy emunas chachomim. These are the scandals that convey the message that the exacting rules of halacha are for the masses but don't apply to our rabbonim.
Foremost amongst these scandals is the Weiss-Dodelson divorce. The whole world - not only the frum community - is riveted by the battle between the Kotler's and the Feinstein's. Gital Dodelson's tawdry revelations in the trashy N.Y Post of her fight to obtain a get - have embarrassed and degraded all of us. She not only smears her husband - a normal thing in divorce - but she is creating an incredible chilul hashem with her message - Yiddishkeit is disgusting and barbaric. All of this she proudly does under the guidance of a public relations consultant who announced in her Newsweek article - that she is using the Internet and public media to change out of date halachos!
Perhaps her low point was what this kollel wife from one of one of the greatest rabbinic families who married into another great family said in an interview published on the Internet. She said that she had half-seriously told her mother than the next guy she is interested in she should live with him 5 years without marriage to see if they are compatible. She said of course she was only joking. Do you think she would tell that joke to your yeshiva bachurim? Obviously not - but she said it to the whole world. This message has been spread in the press all over the world and millions of people have read her words - with many who hate Torah - rejoicing.
As the rosh yeshiva knows they have fortunately returned to negotiations. However it has been brought to my attention that the negotiations are shlepping. It is obvious that they need some pressure to finally end this madness. The consensus is that the rosh yeshiva's intervention is critical for the success of the negotiations.
I respectfully request that the rosh yeshiva personally intervene and bring the negotiations to a close so that Gital can have her Get - and the Torah world can repair the horrific damage that this fight has caused.
Aguns convention?? Am I missing something?
ReplyDeleteThese are the scandals that convey the message that the exacting rules of halacha are for the masses but don't apply to our rabbonim.
ReplyDeleteSend this message to Rabbi Dovid Feinstein. Why is he allowed to intervene in an issue of beit din that involves his own grandson?
I respectfully request that the rosh yeshiva personally intervene and bring the negotiations to a close so that Gital can have her Get - and the Torah world can repair the horrific damage that this fight has caused.
Again, said this message to Rabbi Dovid Feinstein. All that he needs to do is withdraw his "psak" that never should have been rendered to begin with. Without his power to back up Avrohom, the dispute could be settled instantly.
Yitz,
DeleteThe reason this can't be settled is because terror cannot produce a GET it only produces mamzerim. But Rosh Yeshivas and rabbonim are backing the terror fully and they are backing the terrible disgraces of Gitel. With people like this how can things be settled?
Dovid Eidensohn said: "...Rosh Yeshivas and rabbonim are backing the terror fully and they are backing the terrible disgraces of Gitel..." -- Is it "Gitel" or "Gitaetal?
DeleteThe most devastating scandals for Klall Yisoel are the one that destroy emunas chachomim.
ReplyDeleteyou have to be really chareidi to make the above statement. if this wasn't the highest item of concern, than the other scandals could be dealt with much, much more effectively.
Ben,
DeleteSpot on. And I would add that such a request would be infinitely more effective if it displayed true neutrality, rather than how heavily weighted it is against one side ('tawdry', 'trashy', 'kollel wife').
Ben Waxman said: The most devastating scandals for Klall Yisoel are the one that destroy emunas chachomim.
Deleteyou have to be really chareidi to make the above statement."
Ben, if you haven't noticed this entire saga is amongst CHAREDIM! Duh! Nobody else really counts nowadays because they are essentially irrelevant.
Seculars, Chilonim, the Reform and Conservatives have written themselves off with their mass assimilation, intermarriage and apostasy with nary a whimper of protest from their purported leaders.
While the Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionists don't know if the are "Arthur or Mather"!
That's why the real issues to be solved, and that always draws the attention of the world is increasingly among the Charedim (the "alpha males" of the Jewish world!), because they are more and more visible defying the odds and growing by leaps and bounds, and what is of interest is basically only among the Charedim as they go through the various "sound barriers" of coming into their own day by day to become the inevitable soon-to-be-majority of the Jewish people.
Imagine if that "publicist" the Dodelson's hired would instead focus on the sky-high rate of intermarriage assimilation and dropping out from just being plain Jews among secular Jews? Or how the Modern Orthodox of today are so wishy-washy no one knows how they differ from Conservative Judaism anymore? Or how the so-called Religious Zionists, like Naftali Bennett have struck a Mephistopheles deal with Yair Lapid to attack, humiliate and degrade the Charedim worthy of the Hellenists of yore.
Wake up Ben and get with the program and see (better: perceive!) what's really going on!
i could get into a mutual insult session with you, but i think that i'll skip it.
DeleteThank you for this letter and I hope that someone will bring this letter to the attention of Rabbi Kaminetzky (I do not think that he is managing this case on behalf of the Dodelsons and I would not assume he has that much influence over the Kotlers/Dodelsons)
ReplyDeleteI suggest that if you write another letter but more pragmatic to the BMG people warning them of their eroding credibility it may be more effective.
We have to put our Batei Dinim in place, before we solve any of our other problems. Mchon lehoraah needs to answer as to how they wrote a Siruv !! Do we have Batei din ? Or are they just a bunch of cattle prodding maniacs, who don't care about Halacha ? If beis din doesn't follow Halacha, then how can we live as a frum society ? No beis din should be able to hear one side of the story first!!!.
ReplyDeleteAlso, it would be helpful if rabbis wouldn't sign letters, without verifying facts. It causes chillul Hashem.
Do we have Batei din ?
DeleteThe answer is clearly NO!
Our Beis-Din operates on on-demand basis. So in the case of any dispute the so called beis-din can function on the basis that both side agree to listen to it and this is more like arbitration. This is true for both money and Gittin disputes
A wise person would make sure that the arbitrator will be honest otherwise there is no much point in it.
A more defined community such as Square, may be the exception to the rule where people may need to come to beis-din against their will but in a place like Lakewood unless one side is extremely connected where the rule of KOL DEALIM GVAR prevails it is vrey much like arbitration.
you are writing this open letter to a rosh yeshiva who is responsible for the problems in many of these cases.
ReplyDeleteremember settlement doesn't necessarily mean she gets a get. in many cases settling the case means she is not entitled to a get according to hallacha and she has to just sit and get white.
@ Yitz WaxmanNovember 21, 2013 at 12:25 PM
ReplyDeleteSend this message to Rabbi Dovid Feinstein. Why is he allowed to intervene in an issue of beit din that involves his own grandson?
All that he needs to do is withdraw his "psak"
R' Dovid pointed out to those issuing a KOL KOREH, that the term AGUNAH does not apply in accordance with the Halacha according to everyone, and it was like a to'oh bidvar 'Mishnah", regardless of being his Grandson or whoever else it might be. It is being a Motzi shem ra to say that he is Meagen.
Yitz, have you read this? ... "the fact that they both went to Rabbi Greenwald to arbitrate the dispute removes him from that status according to
"EVERYONE."
I respectfully request that chazor bach, umiyad!
Torah achas...
DeleteRabbi Dovid Feinstein indeed wrote that the Kol Koreh does not apply because they both agreed to arbitrate with Rabbi Greenwald. He was wrong. We have written statements from Rabbi Greenwald and emails published by the Dodelson's showing that they never agreed to such a thing.
RDE said he was going to follow up with an explanation for the the Greenwald statements but that explanation never came. Thus, we have someone who is still mesarev ledin and that can only be lifted when he agrees to a din torah by a reputable BD or gets the Dodelson's to agree to a neutral arbitrator.
Before you tell me that he agrees to go to Gestetner, I assure you that Rav Dovid does not view that as a legitimate option.
If you can get Rav Dovid to publicly state that he holds of Rav Gestetner's BD and approves of his handling of Gittin matters, then you will have a decent case.
I suppose then that the 10 sages that signed the 'kol koreh' are no ones, since everyone knows about the implications of the Rabbi Greenwald arbitration.
DeleteFurthermore, if what Rabbi Feinstein says is as obvious to everyone as he says, then why can't he leave it to another unrelated Rabbi to make the statements in defense of Avrohom. I am at a loss to understand how Rabbi Feinstein has no regard for his conflict of interest in this case.
When I was getting divorced (in Israel), I tried to call a retired dayan to ask a procedural question about the process. The dayan cut me short by telling me that he cannot discuss any issue that is before the beit din. End of discussion. I respect this dayan for his display of judicial probity.
Last thing - why don't you use your real name? What are you afraid of?
Dear Rabbi,
DeleteCan you help me here? You posted on this blog a letter which you said was from Ronnie Greenwald.
In that letter, Ronnie Greenwald made the following statement:
"I never received any agreement from the parties to serve as mediator". (See copy attached)
Yet, you contradict that statement of Ronie Greenwald that you posted, when you say:
"Yitz, have you read this? ... "the fact that they both went to Rabbi Greenwald to arbitrate the dispute removes him from that status according to "EVERYONE."
If Ronnie says he didn't arbitrate, how can you say he did?
James wrote:
DeleteThus, we have someone who is still mesarev ledin and that can only be lifted when he agrees to a din torah by a reputable BD or gets the Dodelson's to agree to a neutral arbitrator.
Before you tell me that he agrees to go to Gestetner, I assure you that Rav Dovid does not view that as a legitimate option.
If you can get Rav Dovid to publicly state that he holds of Rav Gestetner's BD and approves of his handling of Gittin matters, then you will have a decent case
==============
Please read the following which refutes your assertions
http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-role-of-mechon-lhoraah.html
If Ronnie says he didn't arbitrate, how can you say he did?
Delete=========================
If a person spends countless hours talking with both sides. Representatives of both sides repeated come to him with offers and counteroffers. Everything is done under the supervision of their expensive attorneys. But only one side signed a document saying that he was bound by this person's decision - would you say that person is arbitrating the dispute? What if after all this effort one of the sides walks away. Does that mean that the person had not been arbitrating between the sides? Rav Dovid Feinstein said that once both sides were seriously working together to find a solution under the supervision of Rabbi Greenwald -- that according to everyone you can not call one of the sides as being mesarev. That is simply a definition not a judgment.
Now what is it that you don't understand? You want to say that since both sides didn't put it in writing that Rabbi Greenwald was arbitrating - that he is not an arbitrator? There is no question the Dodelson's took his efforts seriously and they seriously participated in his arbitration efforts. Contrary to what some have said - he was not running after them begging them to allow him to voice an opinion. They were not just politely listening to him ramble. THERE WAS A SERIOUS JOINT EFFORT UNDER HIS GUIDANCE - both parties full involvement means that he was arbitrating the dispute. But since it wasn't binding on both sides it was not binding arbitration.
Now I am more baffled than ever.
DeleteYou say: "But only one side signed a document saying that he was bound by this person's decision"
And you say: "But since it wasn't binding on both sides it was not binding arbitration".
Yet, Reb Dovid wrote: "As Ronnie Greenwald's letter attests, both families agreed to come before him for a decision to resolve the matter....."
But you say and the Ronnie letter you printed both say "It was not binding arbitration."
Both Ronnie and you say that "only one side signed a document saying that he was bound by this person's decision"
Can you please explain why Reb Dovid thinks that both families agreed to come before [Ronnie] for a decision to resolve the matter....."
Thank you.
Dear Daas Torah,
DeleteCan a beis din render a psak din in a dispute between two parties if only one party signs a shtar biur?
Baffled - if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - then there is a good chance it is a duck. Both sides did come to Rabbi Greenwald to arbitrate the dispute but only one side was willing to commit in advance to what he decided.
DeletePerhaps you are bothered by arbitration which is not binding. If two parties go to the arbitrator and say lets work together and hopefully we will come up with a solution - that is non-binding arbitration. If they say we will acccept the decision of the arbitrator no matter what he says - that is binding arbitration.
What you described is not non-binding arbitration, it's mediation. Apparently they went to him for mediation. See here for the difference.
Deletehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binding_arbitration
Super I concede your point - it is not non-binding arbitration but mediation.
DeleteI am finishing a post that explains what happned.
The explanation of the contradition betwen Rabbi Greenwald's 3rd letter and and the first 2 letter is discussed here. In particular did the Weiss family lie about Rabbi Greenwald's involvement?
Deletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/11/weiss-dodelson-did-weisss-lie-about.html
Rabbi Eidensohn,
ReplyDeleteYou are right about the unseemliness of this pitched PR war. You are right about the eroding credibility of rabbonim and their adherence to beit din when it comes to their own special interests. But given your own posts, you can hardly be surprised about unseemly conduct by either party. Both you and I have documented the misconduct of the current generation of Kotlers and Feinsteins. Neither are even tolerably adequate successors to R. Moshe and R. Aaron. One took incredible bribes from Leib Tropper to support an outrageous geirus racketeer. The other hounded a talmid chochom out of Lakewood just to preserve the rule that no molester should ever go to jail. We both know there is a lot more that could be said about both of them. As for the rule of beit din, neither Dovid nor Reuvain Feinstein has ever publicly repudiated the ascension of Aaron Shechter to the Moetzes, even though he is lo tzayis dinah according to their father whose summons to beit din he ignored.
Given the Kotler and Feinstein's astoundingly low moral standards and their outrageous hypocrisy, it seems pointless to bemoan the escalation of their fighting into the public arena. This sort of thing is inevitable given the cast of characters.
It is not R' Dovid's grandson.
ReplyDeleteOPEN LETTER TO THE FEINSTEN FAMILY
ReplyDeletePlease do not participate in Avramie's efforts to extort his ex-wife. Until now, the Feinstein family has been the benchmark for ehrlichkeit. I can't imagine the Feinsteins I have known for decades would advise a regular Jew to use a get to extort money from an ex-wife. You are blinded here by negius.
I know both of you have not taken a public position supporting Avramie' extortion but shtika K'hodoah, no?
I beg you please disassociate yourself from the practice of using a get to extort money from an ex-wife!
A FFF,
DeleteWho is Avramie ?
Avramie Weiss, the son of Rabbi Yosaif Asher Weiss. His mother is a daughter of HoRav HaGaon Rabbi Reuven Feinstein, shlita.
DeleteAvramie Weiss is refusing to give his ex-wife Gital Dodelson a get, unless her family pays him $350,000 cash + favorable child custody.
All the proclamations about Torah, halacha, right, wrong, good wife, bad wife, good husband bad husband, get meusa, get meforsam - that's all baloney. You can ignore all that.
No $350,000, no get. That's all you need to know.
Neither Reb Reuven (nor his brother HoRav HaGaon Dovid) have taken a public position as to whether it is proper or honorable for their einikle to hold his ex-wife in this manner.
Baffeled,
DeleteNow I am baffled. So you are A FFF ? I would think a FFF would know his proper name.
Also, just repeating things a million times across this blog, doesn't make them Torah Min Shomayim.
@ JamesNovember 21, 2013 at 4:48 PM
ReplyDeleteAgain, please understand that it is AMW calling the shots. He called her to R. G.
R.G. was willing to mediate/arbitrate. AMW did sign to except R.G.'s resolution to this matter. G.D. did not want to sign nor accept G.D.'s resolution. She has no prerogative to call him to her entity of choice. It was G.D. that refused to sign, therefore, she forfeited. You get me a letter from R.G. that AMW never approached him, and never signed shtorei birurin or mekabel kinyan, then we talk. Although, that it is well true that she never signed, as they say tough nuggies.