Not sure what to think. I know and love people on both sides of this. I
also know this is not the first time a fight over a get has torn great
people apart. I obviously lean towards Gital's side, and have since the
beginning of this terrible mess. It seems to me to be too many rabbonim
leaning towards her side to be discounted. I thought the blogs defending
Avrohom Meir were wrong.
But over the last few days, I have simply been
shocked. The Post article, to me, was simply the wrong thing to do. No
matter what. And it was so full of things that were misleading! The way
it portrayed Gital as being up against the "untouchable Feinstein
family" when I saw no advantage being given to her ex husband because of
that. And making it sound like only he is a member of a powerful
rabbinic family seemed a little strange.
And the fact that most of the
article is spent on attacking dating the way it is done in the frum
world! But even then I figured it was done out of pain. And the fact
that it blasted Orthodox dating and made the get sound like some kind of
backwards ancient law I chalked up to the Post rewording the article.
Maybe it was an interview that was twisted. And then I saw that the Dodelsons are running a campaign through a PR person! The Facebook page
and the article, the whole thing, is calculated to look exactly the way
it does! It made me start to question my position, though I admit I was
not sure the whole time, just leaning heavily.
But now with Rav Dovid! My
whole life I was told that there is one person who all the poskim in
America listen to. And that's Rav Dovid. I know he can be looked at as
nogea bedavar, but there isn't one posek in the world in this kind of
thing that isn't nogea bedavar in some way. I just feel that if I had to
choose who I should follow in this whole confusion, when everyone is
twisting facts to their advantage, the one person I have always known
for sure I can trust with my life and death shailos and my olam haba has
to be Rav Dovid. Anyone who knows him even a little knows exactly what I
mean. I'm sure what he wrote won't make a difference to most people who
have dug in, especially not the modern orthodox or the poster on this
blog who I can only refer to as the one with many names because he
changes them to have conversations with him or herself, but for me it is
enough to know that I have to wait and see before I just dismiss
Avrohom Meir as a rasha.
I hope that someone, maybe Rabbi Greenwald,
maybe Rav Dovid, is given siyata dishmaya to resolve this. We in klal
yisrael can't afford this anymore. May Hashem help us achieve achdus.
One of the main problems in this divorce and others, is that once the parties start fighting, the מדת הנצחון comes to be an issue.
ReplyDeleteThe original arguments or reasons for dispute no longer are the most important. It is the fear of losing which each side holds onto. It is also the ability to be מנצח that gives drive to the fight. This is why we see משה רבינו went to דתן ואבירם to end the fight right away. The גמרא also compares a fight to planks on a bridge, that are hard to move out of their place once set in place. We should end fights right away. Divorces are also best negotiated quickly. It doesn't need to take a year, when it can take a day.
I have seen many גיטין, where the issues were small issues, yet it took forever to get over with, because each side wanted to be winner, or not to budge on their "rights". I believe that the same is going on here. Everyone wants to be a winner !!! It takes on a life of its own.
Lol. Obviously this comment is written by a sockpuppet troll who wants to make it appear like the Dodelson's are losing support. Maybe call Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky & ask him if his opinion on this matter has changed at all. Or any of the Signatories on the Kol Koreh. The fact is like Rabbi Eidenson had said in a previous comment- Rabbi Feinstein never thought that that AMW was a mesarev or a meagen, so nothing changed. Both sides hadn't agreed to accept the hachraah of Ronnie Greenwald, so thinking that his opinion on the matter changes anything is ludicrous.
ReplyDeleteRabbonim like Rav Shmuel sign kol korehs based on the say-so and word of other rabbonim. Another rabbi he trusts tells him a few quick pointers about the situation and tells him it will be a good and helpful idea to sign, and all the other rabbis sign based on the first rabbis opinion and say-so since they trust Rabbi X.
DeleteThis was the same situation with Rav Shmuel and other rabbonim a number of years ago when they signed a kol korah banning Lipa Schmeltzer's concert in Madison Square Garden.
Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky later said he was in error in signing the kol korah on Lipa and that he did so on the request of another rabbi without himself investigating the issue.
Delete" Rav Shmuel Kamenetzky later said he was in error in signing the kol korah on Lipa and that he did so on the request of another rabbi without himself investigating the issue"
DeleteWell, if he sets his signature under a decree that has such drastic economic consequences for the person targueted and afterwards says "Oh, I'm sorry, I did not mean it, I did not do my due diligence", his word loses all credibility. The excuse is worse than what he did.
Obviously, he cannot be relied on at all, if what you say is true.
And cue the same Pro--Weiss sockpuppets bashing me for stating a fact. I'm not sure how many of you are Avrom Meir, but I know you are here & reading this. I hope you're smart enough to realize that the court of public opinion is bigger than the comment sections of this blog & Yudel Shains.
ReplyDeleteI hope you realize that the "court of public opinion" is a kangaroo court.
DeleteJewish fathers in high profile divorce cases are being viciously harassed and smeared in front of the whole American public by the ORA MISYAVNIM / BIRYONIM. The real purpose for this feminist jihad is not to rescue fake "agunot". Rather the purpose of ORA's feminist jihad is to force the Orthodox community to allow and accept divorce on demand, abduction of children by the wife, followed by disposal and financial destruction of Jewish fathers, including mosering and destroying the fathers in the feminist police state.
ReplyDeleteIts clear that ORA's GITTIN are PASUL and just a facade for their agenda. The GET is just a strawman used by the ORA goons to rally the naive Jewish masses in to thinking they're fighting for justice.
ORA trolls like AZ, Foncused and James can babble lies all day about the court case, but the court papers clearly show Dodelson as the Plaintiff in a full divorce lawsuit.
Anyone who dares stand up to ORA's evil feminist agenda will be subjected to the maximum public humiliation and harassment, and as we saw in the Friedman case, possible forced abduction.
I was told that Artscroll has fired Reb Avrohom Meir's father. Can anyone confirm this?
ReplyDeleteRena,
ReplyDelete1) This has been going on for 4 years. Kol hakavod that 'to you' the press is the wrong venue for this. When you're in the subject's shoes, you might have a different take on this.
2) Rabbeinu Gershom obviously was troubled enough by how the get had turned into a 'backwards ancient law' that he made several permanent takkanos to it.
3) Unfortunately, the biggest hit to the kovod due our Talmidei Chachamim was penned by Rabbi Yair Hoffman this very week, wherein he defends the actions of Martin Wolmark. It seems that you can trust no one with the 'facts' any more....lots of people can stare evil in the face, and declare it to be good. Being nogea b'davar is not something to sneeze at.
It is unsettling, that we can't find a better way to settle our disputes. We have to create a system to handle our divorces. We need to form an organization that helps peacefully negotiated גיטין. Here is what we need to navigate.
ReplyDelete1. Men withholding גיטין for money, custody
2. Men giving גיטין that are פסול, forced
3. Women withholding visitation
4. Women not having their children supported financially
5. Embarrassment being doled out to either parent or grandparent, harassment.
6. Negotiating problems arising after divorce (new spouses, religious levels that often change, schools, camps, Simchas)
If we would have a decent honest organization that did a good job with divorce, all sects of orthodox judaism would turn to it. We would have a much better shot at tackling our problems. We would also know, and have more leverage, when someone is out of bounds with their demands or behaviors. Money has to be taken out of the equation, and those who run it, must not recieve money from the clients, nor deal with cases that they know either party. There is an obvious need for us to have a honest organization handling this.
7. Women unilaterally walking out of the marriage.
Delete8. Women emptying the bank account upon divorce.
9. Women demanding the house and half the assets even though Halacha deems it owned exclusively by the husband.
10. A spouse denying or minimizing visitation rights of the other spouse kneged halacha.
11. A spouse demanding custody when halacha deems the other spouse the right to primary custody.
12. A spouse demanding child support and/or alimony where halacha provides no such concession.
13. A spouse instilling hate in their child for the other parent.
14. A spouse demanding a GET or acceptance thereof even though halachicly they have no stand.
Joe,
DeleteWrite your own things. Don't add on to mine. I am like the Torah. Don't add a New Testament to my fantasy organization.
On a serious note, Child support is more stringent in Halacha than secular court, and we need to make sure it is kept. Schar Limud, Mesonos, even rent may very well be on the father alone. Of course this is only relevant if he doesn't take custody of boys from age 6. Simply put we need to have an organization that works, and isn't corrupt. It should notify everyone of their halachic rights, and then see what the parties can agree on. Each case will have it's unique situations. Mitzva livtzoa. Sheli sheli veshalcha shelcha can be Midas Sdom. We don't need situations like this one, Heter Meahs, or Gittin Meusin.
"I am like the Torah."
DeleteWow, at least someone here has a great opinion of himself....
a) Child support in halacha can be made by spending the necessary support directly on the child's needs WITHOUT giving it to the other spouse.
Deleteb) Secular law in the vast majority of cases awards child support far more than halachicly required. Especially for a middle class or wealthy parent. Halacha doesn't require a wealthy parent to indulge each child with thousands of dollars a month.
c) If the father offers housing for the child in his home he is not required to pay for additional housing/rent because the other parent insists on his living with her.
d) Halachic child support requirements end well before Bar/Bas Mitzvah age unlike secular child support.
e) All child support, custody, marital asset seperation should be insisted be done in accordance with halacha even when that is different than secular law, and be adjudicated in beis din as halacha requires, and not in secular court.
Hey blatant,
DeleteIt was a joke :) read it again.
Joe,
You may be correct about some of your points, however, there should be some type of standard.
Once an agreement is made, they should have to follow it. Regardless. There should be some type of small punishment for each violation. Basically we have to figure it out. We need a good organization to do it, and we need to have a system that works for the masses, that is according to Halacha, and agreeable to both parties.
We have some organizations that work, like Hatzalah, and Chesed shel Emes, Satmar Bikur Cholim, and then we have some that arent working as well, like Beis Din, I am sure that there are others as well. All we need is an organization that works for Halachic divorce.
The only point I think I can add to your last comment is that if the two parties cannot agree on some of the points, a beis din should settle it strictly in accordance with halacha. I do agree with the entirety of your last comment.
Delete"Halachic child support requirements end well before Bar/Bas Mitzvah age"
DeleteSo you are saying that a torah-true father should tell his 12-year-old son to go and work for a living, and marry off his 11-year-old daughter, so that he will not have to pay child support for them?
No, just that it cannot be IMPOSED on him an obligation he doesn't have under halacha.
DeleteI still say Weiss should put together three Dayanim as a beis din, get a heter meah rabbonim signed by 100 kollel guys with smicha, deposit a conditional GET with that beis din that she can pickup once she meets her halachic obligations to him, and get himself remarried and more children.
ReplyDeleteOh, and a side note to RDE:
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting that you pulled Rena's comment out and created its own post out of it.
Over the last few days, you have kept repeating how you're only interested in halachic discussion, not 'gut feelings'. There is nothing halachic about this post.....all in the gut.
The vast majority of the people have reviewed the evidence that is available in the public sphere, and they find your position sorely lacking. Halacha doesn't operate in a vacuum, and the Hamon Am has a great deal of power in the process (e.g., אין גוזרין גזירה שאין הצבור יכולים לעמוד בה).
I know it will be hard for you to admit this, but your 'Halacha is all I'm interested in' argument is fading fast, and rightfully so. Mr. Weiss' behavior doesn't pass the smell test for the vast majority of yidden. I'm sorry you're having so much trouble defying that.
Daniel S - have you ever learned gemora? Perhaps you remember that occasionaly they will provid answers that are only relevant to their opponents views.
DeleteSince most of Gital's supporters seem to just keep repeating their emotional judgments over and over again I thought it relevant to present one of her followers that was having second thoughts.
So please keep your "wise" debating techniques for someone else.
Reb Doniel,
Delete"There are plenty of blogs where you can exchange personal opinions - this one requires sources."
You wrote that -- today -- to someone who disagrees with your position. Which is it?
The headers to each of your posts on this matter are laden with judgement. Some of us have no pony in this race....we're interested in emes. Usually a sound Torah argument requires you to stick to your earlier position: give me sources.
You 'thought it relevant' to bring an emotional argument. I don't know....you just don't seem unbiased here. You never have. Just saying.
Daniel S, I am sorry you are having trouble understanding what I do. You simply can't understand the difference between what I have been doing in presenting the halachic literature in great deal over several years and someone who keeps repeating a get must be given when the marriage is over. And then says such a view is self evident and built into nature.
DeleteI would suggest then that you would be happier reading someone else's blog that you think is more honest and scholarly.
You seem to have a command of decent debate tactics yourself, Reb Doniel.
DeleteI actually got that you have the sources on this issue down cold. You know them better than nearly anyone around.
You neatly sidestepped my point, however. I totally agree with you; my puny mind is having trouble wrapping my tiny brain around the wealth of halachic responsa. If only I was the only one. But I'm not. In fact, I'm in the majority.
Even Reb Dovid's one line addendum to the Greenwald letter -- brief, pithy, and to most of us, wholly inadequate -- is troubling. None of this is passing the smell test to the Hamon Am. And leaders are accountable to the people in Halacha.
Ignore this at your own peril. I suppose as long as you know the sources cold, all is well.
Daniel S:
Delete1) The hamon hoam is answerable to the rabbonim, NOT vice versa.
2) The hamon hoam, by and large majority, support Reb Avrohom Meir Weiss' position in this saga. Ms. Dodelson stooping to go to the shmutzy New York Post to press her case is her last desperate act.
Yaakov,
DeletePeruse through a host of sites carrying this tragic story, and one's conclusion is significantly different. Weiss most definitely does not have anywhere near the support you claim. Quite the opposite.
No, the rabbis are answerable to the community. It has been that way since Moshe on down. Shmuel, Dovid Hamelech, Eliyahu....Only in our generation did Daas Torah rear its head, effectively trying to convince several generations of Jews to stop thinking for themselves, and to stop trusting their own knowledge base and good sense.
And, when you look at Rav Dovid Feinstein's one-line addition to the Greenwald letter, the term 'desperate' definitely crosses one's mind. I believe it would have been better to say nothing.
Daniel S:
Delete"Peruse through a host of sites" Seriously!? You are judging popular support by blogs?! The Jewish blogosphere has long been known as an anti-Torah haven of miscontempts. And for sock puppetry. Most of the Torah community, by far, doesn't participate in blogs and website commenting, and a large proportion don't even know of these sites and many many don't even go on the internet for non-business or even at all. That's how you judge? Blogs. That is quite the joke of the day.
And, no, the hamon hoam must follow the rabbonim on halachic issues, not vice versa. LOL. Imagine the rabbonim modifying halacha to popular demand.
"The hamon hoam, by and large majority, support Reb Avrohom Meir Weiss' position in this saga. "
DeleteYou have absolutely no basis for stating this. It reflects your bias only.
zdub, your lack of credibility is demonstrated by your lack of making that same point regarding daniel s' unsubstantiated claim made for the opposite side.
DeleteYaakov,
DeleteYes, 'Daas Torah' has long told everyone how awful the Jewish blogosphere is. As my last comment indicated, there are many who stand to gain when everyone checks their brains at the door.
And there's a large chasm between being beholden to societal realities, and "modifying Halacha to popular demand". I would have thought you (and your mentors) knew that already, since your presence on the internet is one small reflection of the emes of what I'm saying.
Daniel S:
DeleteWhen societal realities (which is something that generally emanates from gentile society that sometimes seeps into some of our communities) conflict with halachic realities, halachic realities certainly override societal realities.
Red herring, and different discussion. Please stay on point. Halacha is very much beholden to societal realities in many, many ways. So are its decisors.
DeleteThe main problem is that divorce is treated as a confrontation instead of as a negotiation. Two business partners who decide to split up (usually) don't go to court and deplete all their assets fighting each other. They call in an appraiser and figure out who gets what assets. Divorce needs to be treated the same way. The parents are business partners in raising the child which means respectful negotiations that lead to cooperating in raising that child are the goal.
ReplyDeleteWhen things get out of hand like this, the old quote from Shakespeare comes to mind: A pox on both your houses!
Of course parents breaking up a marriage for whatever reason should deal with each other in good faith and agree on their own to a custody arrangement that is in the best interests of their children. And if they cannot agree on their own or with the help of a mediator, they should bring the matter for adjudication rather than taking unilateral action to establish facts on the ground that, as a practical matter, will be treated as a fait accompli. But it should not be surprising that parents who are divorcing cannot agree on what is in the best interests in their children.
DeleteMore importantly, you are missing a much larger point. the fundamental problem is that children are not a business deal that can somehow be dissolved in a relatively fair and equitable manner. Children always lose when their parents divorce (absent extreme circumstances such as abuse). It is true that the damage is less severe when the parents cooperate - and as I just said, they should do so. Divorce should be severely frowned upon and discouraged, instead of being looked upon as another option no worse than parents staying together. The unacceptability of divorce (again, absent abuse or other severe circumstances) is a topic that is being completely overlooked.
@Parent - "Divorce should be severely frowned upon and discouraged" - Feminist ideologues believe that marriage is inherently oppressive to women and that divorce is to be promoted whenever possible. This corrupt ideology has entered large parts of the Modern Orthodox community, and is currently penetrating the Yeshiva community.
DeleteHershel Schachter's YU ORA organization is the military arm of the MO feminists that promotes divorce whenever possible while cloaking it in a phony halachic facade:
"An agunah is a woman whose husband refuses to grant her a Jewish divorce upon request."
http://web.archive.org/web/20050130200043/http://getora.org/
The article was not by R. Dovid Feinstein (R. Moshe's son) but by R. Dovid Feinstein, R. Reuven's son (at least that's what the signature said).
ReplyDeleteThere are two documents. The two page document responding to the NY Post article and calling for reconciliation was Rav Reuven's son. The single page with the psak is from Rav Moshe's son.
DeleteWhere is the psak from Rav Dovid Feinstein?
DeleteThe link is at the top - just click on Rav Dovid Feinstein
DeleteRDE, here's what I find as interesting.
ReplyDeleteIt seems as if RDF is saying now that they agreed on arbitration, 'call off the dogs'.
This implies, were it not for agreeing to arbitration, RDF would have no problem with all the pressure that's been brought to the table to cause AMW to give a Get.
RDE, what does that say about where RDF stands regarding pressuring a M'agen to give his wife a Get?
I'm wondering if you would comment whether or not the Dodelson's position that Greenwald's letter is being misrepresented to mean there was any agreement has any merit. Also if you think they are lying, would that make any difference if it were true? Then the R Dovid Feinstein letter would be irrelevant.
ReplyDeleteYes - here is a letter from Rabbi Greenwald saying he is NOT an arbitrator:
Deletehttps://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=519281931501721&set=a.480394572057124.1073741827.480356772060904&type=1&theater
To Dave: yes I can confirm that Artscroll let go of R' Weiss
ReplyDeletePinchas Solomon:
DeleteHow do you know that Artscroll fired R' Weiss' father? Did they do the same to his uncle? And did they publicly provide a reason or justification for the firing or even let it be publicly known that he was fired?
Thanks
To Whom it May Concern,
ReplyDeleteA number of months ago concerned 3rd parties asked me to offer my services to the Weiss Dodelson Families to serve as Binding Arbitrator for their disputes.
I offered my services, and tried to set up an arbitration format that would be agreeable to both sides.
I was unable to set up such an acceptable arbitration format, and the parties never agreed to my serving as Binding Arbitrator.
I have since then tried to step forward as a mediator.
In this effort too I never received any agreement from the parties to serve as a mediator.
This leaves their disputes as they were prior to my efforts.
While I may continue to try to mediate, I am doing so strictly on my own initiative and not at the request or with the consent of the parties.
I regret if my previous letter of Nov 7th created the mistaken impression that the parties had agreed to my role as either Binding Arbitrator or mediator.
Thank you,
Rabbi Ronnie Greenwald
_________________________
I agree with EMES LEYAAKOV above. We must do something to get rid of ORA which is a hate mongering organization bent on destroying marriages and people. I know of countless cases where husbands were showing reasonable concessions to end their divorce dispute but ORA emphatically encourages the women to make no concessions in order to further the cause and thus creating a sort of "PSEUDO-AGUNA crisis in America. In the Weiss -Dodelson case it boils down to : 1) did both sides agree to arbitrate by Rabbi Greenwald? If yes then why is Dodelson stabbing weiss with the Ny Post article? If he or she didnt agree to Arbitration then why not? As of vnow a letter has been produced by Greenwald that both agreed? Therefore the only conclusion is this ORA feminist men hating machine that Herschel Schachter from YU has empowered and causing much grief to the innocent and to making public chilul hashem. I further know of an innocent man that sent all his documentation to herschel schachter via mail, fax and email to vindicate himself from ORA's vicious public attacks, yet Herschel wouldnt even give him a response. in my opinion they are mostly to blame for such acrimony. Additionally ORA has had rallies in areas that ae 100% non- Jewish where non-Jewish neighbors not only couldnt care less but also dont understand the significance of a GET, yet they continue to spread and promote Chilul Hashem. Woe to the rabbis of this generation that remain silent to such injustice and depravity.
ReplyDelete@Shmuel - Your comments are right on target. I would add that reliable sources in Brooklyn informed me that fanatical ORA goons are allegedly engaging in public harassment of Feinstein family members.
DeleteAny man being harassed by ORA (or if his family or friends are being harassed) should utterly refuse to even consider giving any GET until and unless ORA ceases all forms of harassment and public humiliation against the man.
I find it beyond DISGUSTING if that is true what you are reporting about ArtScroll. I would never want to purchase another Artscroll product again, if that is the case.
ReplyDeleteHow do you justify firing a relative of someone you are in conflict with, even if the person you are in conflict with is totally wrong, you cant just fire their relative as retaliation. It would seem that is a Torah prohibition of taking revenge. Even if the husband is in Charem according to one Beit Din --- and that is a very big "if" as another beit din has issued a psak invalidating the cherem --- but his father is not in Charem!!! So how can you fire him?!!? I repeat, this action of ArtScroll, if true, Is BEYOND MORALLY DISGUSTING!!!
the Dodleson wealth must have influenced this SICK decision and it speaks to the sickness of their approach.
I dont know the law, but would a lawsuit of religious discrimination against ArtScroll be viable as they are persecuting the father for his religious beliefs regarding the appropriate time for giving a get, i.e. only AFTER the psak of a beit din?
Any get after these kind of sick pressure tactics would seem to be pasul anyways.
I know that it's hard for you to wrap your mind around reason, but Halacha does not allow for someone to support, tactically or otherwise, someone who is b'nidui. The Kol Koreh signed by the Gedolim like RSK, RAF, RYP, RMK, RNG, RYH RMH among others, calls for this specific sanction on the father/uncle for this specific reason.
DeleteBut don't let that get in your way of your one man boycott.
1) there was not halachic justification for nidoi according to Shulach Aruch. 2) Would like to see any source that a supporter of a person in nidoi can be treated as being in niddoi. 3) You are correct about the kol koreh - but again it is not according to Shulchan Aruch
DeleteRegarding the original point. Artscroll did not fire the Weiss brothers. The boycott was/is causing serious financial difficulty for Artscroll. The Weiss brothers decided that they didn't want to cause further harm to Artscroll and resigned - even though Artscroll was willing to continue employing them
In light of the letter from Ronnie Greenwald on November 11, 1:40 pm, will Rav Dovid Shlita be changing his psak?
ReplyDeleteBy all appearances, Rav Dovid was mislead by his family when he issued that psak, which indicates that he didn't speak to Ronnie directly.
Rav Dovid Feinstein knew exactly about the nature of the negotiation regarding the Dodelson's and Weiss'. And his psak is justified by the facts and still stands.
DeleteRabbi Greewald has decided at the present time not to elaborate on the contrast between the letters of November 7 and November 11 or to clarify what negotiations were going on under his auspices
http://blog.artscroll.com/2013/11/11/to-all-who-have-communicated-with-artscroll-regarding-the-dodelson-weiss-matter/
ReplyDelete^^^^^^ shows what kind of tzaddikim the Weiss family is .. they are willing to give up their parnasa for the sake of Klal Yisrael.. that does not strike me as people who are not following halacha to 10000% degree.. and I fully believe that R'Greenwald was pushed to write that letter out of extreme pressure .
ReplyDeleteOf course you believe that. Because it's much easier for you to engage in fantastical musings that to have to contemplate the possibility that you are wrong. Much like Avrohom Meir, Yosaif Asher, & Yisroel Weiss.
DeleteI cannot comment on legal fees. If I were weiss I would obtain a hetter meah amd move on.
ReplyDeleteStop the madness and stop fighting with each other ALL of you !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The Second Bais HaMikdosh was destroyed because of Sinas Chinam ("causeless hatred), and the third Bais HaMikdosh will only be rebuilt by Ahavas Chinom ("selfless love")! You are ALL making yourselves into a laughingstock in full view of the world !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To the Weisses and Dodelsons STOP IT and tell your warring kids who are fighting each other to grow up and stop acting like BABIES !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's a disgrace.
ReplyDelete