The messages in the following proclamations by Lakewood rabbis illustrate a critical problem with Lakewood's ability to protect the welfare of children.
The first proclamation prohibits reporting a suspected Jewish child molester to the police. These rabbis allow no reporting to the police without a clear psak from "an accepted beis din" - and that takes a lot of time and effort and might never happen. The second proclamation requires reporting a suspected non-Jewish child molester to the police. In that case they say that one must call the police immediately.
The reason for the differential response according to these rabbis - is that calling the police to protect against a Jewish child molester is mesira. Mesira is not a problem for reporting goyim. However these rabbis seem to have forgotten about the din of rodef or even sofek rodef - which doesn't require a psak. Or perhaps they don't understand that a child molester is a rodef.
The first proclamation prohibits reporting a suspected Jewish child molester to the police. These rabbis allow no reporting to the police without a clear psak from "an accepted beis din" - and that takes a lot of time and effort and might never happen. The second proclamation requires reporting a suspected non-Jewish child molester to the police. In that case they say that one must call the police immediately.
The reason for the differential response according to these rabbis - is that calling the police to protect against a Jewish child molester is mesira. Mesira is not a problem for reporting goyim. However these rabbis seem to have forgotten about the din of rodef or even sofek rodef - which doesn't require a psak. Or perhaps they don't understand that a child molester is a rodef.
The implication is that only "goyim" can be dangerous to children.
ReplyDeleteThe truth is of course the opposite! Our children are plenty suspicious of stranger danger, it's the predators among us that get to do damage.
The first psak did not mention even in euphemism the issue of abuse. How do you know it's referring to that, specifically? Additionally, it's from 3 years ago. It should be clarified if these rabbonim still hold this way regarding molestation.
ReplyDeleteOh, they can learn in Lakewood. They certainly know about pikuach nefesh. They have just decided that the minhag shtus of protecting shiddichim supersedes the halachah of pikuach nefesh, lo saamod, din rodef, etc. Thankfully they have not concluded that going to a hospital on shabbos for child labor is embarrassing or they would also asser that.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of embarassing, the Kolko motion to void his guilty plea was due on Sept 30th. I expect we will see that reported on shortly. Sentencing is still scheduled for Oct 17 (iirc) and the judge said he would rule on motion, and if rejected, sentence on the 17th.
I totally agree with Rabbi Lopin. I just can't imagine that any Talmud Chacham who honestly looks at this matter would agree with this non-sense.
DeleteUnfortunately I agree with Rabbi Lopin that this stems from misguided believes and values rather than with one's ability to learn.
Of course it would be way better if we had a system in the Frum world that can effectively deal with molestation. We all prefer calling Hatzalah over 911.
But the sad truth is that we don't, and we seem incapable of putting something into place at the present time in history.
So yes, it feels uncomfortable to allow one Jew to call the police on another Jew. But unfortunately the other choice is just to let molesters continue molesting our children. And for a Torah people who are so concerned about Kedushas Am Yisroel, that should clearly never ever ever ever be an option.
I ponder this a lot. How has our thinking become so so corrupted.
Thank you. but I am not a rabbi.
Deleteto be fair, the silly proclamation is from 2010, and was not signed by most of the rabbis who signed the pretty good one (which of course should not have differentiated between goyim and jews).
ReplyDeleteFOUR RABBI'S (4/9) THAT SIGNED THE FIRST ONE, SIGNED ON THE RECENT ONE (4/8)!!!
DeleteThe first one came out during the kolko debacle. Unfortunately there has not been a retraction to date...
DeleteBlah Blah Blah
ReplyDeleteThis is news? This isn't news. This is well known for many years already.
A goy doesn't and wont accept a beis din. Obviously you call the police. And he obviously isn't protected by hilchos mesira. This is obvious.
A Jew is protected. And it needs to be first ascertained if in fact it is a case of rodef and the police can be called, after a rov evaluates the situation and halachic ramifications, or if it rather is a false or exaggerated allegation.
This is how Rav Eliashev long ago paskened. Raglayim Ladavar. Lakewood has been going by Rav Eliashev's psak ever since. This is part of that.
You say...
Delete"A goy doesn't and wont accept a beis din. Obviously you call the police."
That is the point!!
Since Jews know that some people will defend them, unless there is a psak from BD they simply refuse going to BD. When the pressure mounts they set a date for a din Torah and don't show up.....
So applying your own logic...
A GUY doesn't and wont accept a beis din. Obviously you call the police.
This BTW is exactly what happened for months in the kolko case. They kept agreeing to go to various din torah when the pressure was high, and then changing their mind as soon as it subsided!!!
Finally the father followed your logic and, "went to the police"!!
"hero," you are explaining why call the police at all. But the letter is not just saying to call the police, but to call the police ON SHABBOS. I.e., it's saying that there is an overriding concern of pikuach nefesh that allows one, on one's own estimation, to break shabbos in order to potentially catch a potential child abductor (and note that no consultation with a rav is required to determine whether there is, in fact, such a risk). I believe there was an actual case where a suspicious car was driving around and its occupant trying to lure kids with candy. the kids ran away and the parents called the police after shabbos. see http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2013/06/father-reports-attempted-luring-incident-in-westgate.html. This letter says the parents should have called on shabbos, even though their own children has escaped. So a parent is deemed competent to determine that a suspect who did not actually harm anyone (yet) poses such an imminent danger to others that the parent may break shabbos to report him, but not competent to determine that a suspect who has actually harmed children already poses enough of a danger to violate messirah. That is the difficulty to which this post points.
DeleteLakewood is not going by Rav Eliashiv's psak.
DeleteIn other words, saving the nefesh of a child is possible only by killing the RODEF, of which is halacha mefureshet a mitzva, but not through messira.How ...... can you get? Yelamdenu rabenu, meheichan dantani. Habo lehorgoch hashkem lehorgo, beyado levad, but not by calling the police? Ad mossay atem matir domon shel yaldei yisrael? Mi nossan limshiso yaakov, veYisrael levayzezim? Haloy asher Al ozvi es toirosi... Nebach, they are so caught up in their own web of lies, and don't know how to untangle themselves. Don't you see how a Bas Yisrael Ibed atzma ladaas just this very shabbat as a direct result of your Megaleh panim baTorah shelo kehalocho? How many more children have to die before you say 'DAY 'DAY 'DAY? Avol ashemim atem, yadeichem shofchu et hadam haze, vedam leiby, vedam alfei tinoykes shel bes rabon. Eretz Eretz, AL TECHASSI ET DAMAM! OY VEY GEVALD GEVALD, Rochel mevake al baneha, ki einena, veono ani vo? Bonay Bonay Shoimemim. Shoimu Shamayim!
ReplyDeleteWhat if the suspected assailant is a non-frum Jew?
ReplyDeletenon-frum Jews are Chaiev Missa anyway, so what's the quetion?
DeleteThey are tinokot she-nishbu, so the question remains.
DeleteAlso what about a shtarke Chabad meshichist with a yechi yarmulka or a kipa srugah who believes that the medinah will usher in Mashiach as soon as Yehuda and Shomron are built out, does mesirah apply to them?
Posek HaDor HaRav Yosef Shalom Eliashev zt'l paskened l'halacha that a competent beis din (or posek?) must FIRST determine whether the specifics of the case and allegations constitute Raglayim LaDavar, before they can authorize that a Yid should be reported to the secular authorities.
ReplyDeleteJJ please provide the source for your allegation - which even the Aguda doesn't accept.
DeleteThe Agudah most certainly does accept the aforementioned psak by Posek HaDor HaRav Yosef Shalom Eliashev zt'l regarding raglayin ldavar.
DeleteThat was the whole controversy a couple years ago where the liberals and the jblogosphere where eviscerating the Agudah for announcing its support for that.
The Aguda claimed that according to Rav Eliashiv only a rav can determined whether there is raglayim ledavar. Rav Eliashiv says no such thing. The Aguda also claimed falsely that there was no conflict between mandated reporting and allowing a rav to determine whether you can call the police.
DeleteThey also said according to Rav Eliashiv if the case was known abuse and not just raglayim ldavar then you can call the police. This is not what the Lakewood rabbis are saying.
Finally the Aguda claimed that it was necessary to go to a rav or beis din before going to the police. A year later they acknowledged that they didn't have a list of rabbonim or beis din's that were designated to deal with the issue.
Thus if you have to go to a beis din or rav who refuses to be identified -- because he will be open to criminal charages and civil lawsuites - it is effectively saying that you can't call the police for child abuse - AND THAT IS NOT WHAT RAV ELIASHIV SAID.
You should stop revising history. The aguda's official views on these matters are posted on this blog
The Agudah's description of Rav Eliashev's psak is correct.
DeleteThe Agudah's public pronouncement are not in agreement with his written psak. Now you may have ruach hakodesh and know that his published teshuvos are not actually what he said - but until you bring proof to that assertion you have no ability to reject the written version.
DeleteRead my post directly on this issue here
Deletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-agudas-twisted-path-regarding-abuse.html
Rav Elyashiv did NOT require, where there are raglayim l'davar, that a beis din be consulted. Her permits going directly to the police authorities. A Rav may have superior knowledge in halacha but not necessarily in commonsense and the ability of judgment in cases like these. Woe to one who abandons his commonsense when another Jew is at risk and places the onus of judgment upon a Rav.
Deletecan someone kindly explain the term "raglayim b'davar" in English? I knwo it means if something has legs, but what it referring to exactly?
DeleteI believe it means 'reason to believe'.
DeleteLeiby Kletsky was murdered by a goy?! What planet do these people live on?
ReplyDeleteIf someone is robbing your home, must you call your local rabbi and convene a bais din before you call the police? Just wondering what the halacha is according to these "gefolim".
ReplyDelete"A Jew is protected. And it needs to be first ascertained if in fact it is a case of rodef and the police can be called, after a rov evaluates the situation and halachic ramifications, or if it rather is a false or exaggerated allegation."
ReplyDeleteIf you think a Rov needs to evaluate a Rodef situation, you have no idea what you are talking about.
The point is that it may well NOT be a rodef situation.
DeleteJJ do you claim that a beis din is required to determine whether it is a rodef or sofek rodef situation?!
DeleteWhere in the teshuva does he state that a beis din must evaluate whether it is permitted to call the police?
In addition he notes that mandated reporting is another justification to report abuse - and he does not say that one needs to go to a rav to see whether you can comply with mandated reporting laws - as Rabbi Zweibel mistakenly claimed.
As Snag said above, you really are missing the entire concept of what a rodef situation is. The simple meaning of the words and concept is that there is extreme immenant danger and therefore there is not the luxury of judicial evaluation. The din of rodef is inherently an extra-judicial process.
DeleteIn the Mishna "Harodef achar hazachar", where does it state to first consult a rabbi whether the Rodef is a qualified Rodef. The decision is up to the eyes of the beholders themselves, much more so, when time is of the essence, otherwise the Nirdaf is dead meat. If they are desperate for Raglayim ledovor, why don't they consult leiby H'Y'D, Deb from New S. R'L' may her soul rest in peace, my heart goes out for her, and all the Holocaust victims of Molesters. It is barur kashemesh they are bo'im al iskey nefoshos, vehem kelef alfei alofim eidim damya. If these ra bonim couldn't figure that out after all this, the bloody screams of all these Kinderlach testify that they are a Beis Din Katlonis bish'at nefesh. When you see an attack in hot pursuit against our innocent young, defenseless, weak, infirm, helpless, vulnerable children in harms way, you MUST rescue them in any which way you can, 'chad vecholok', even at the expense of the life of the RODEF, no questions asked. Lo Taamod al DAM reacha! So say the TRUE GEDOLEI HAPOSKIM.
ReplyDeleteOY VEY GEVALD, IN GESHRIEN!
In Judaic law, LIFE- PIKUACH NEFESH, is given the utmost priority, "VACAHY BOHEM", even on the Holiest of the Holies be'etzem Yom Hakipurim. We The People, ask them all, Why are kinderlach not considered NEFESH? Why are they expendable? Why haven't you addressed the issue that our Kinderlach ARE in fact dying from these attacks, and WHAT have you done to prevent such? How many more leiby's need die C'Veshalom before going into action? "Vehismakartem sham, ve'ein koneh", "Korosi ve'ein oneh". Please, do something already, ki Dam achinu tzoakim elay min ha'adama! We cannot take this any more. Time IS of the essence.
You know u r very funny how about the guy u r throwing in jail and destroying his and family's life y is the guy who is allegedly abused have presidence u have to decide thru real daas Torah and not a blog this delicate situation.
DeleteYou can make the same argument on any rodef. what if the rodef is innocent of any wrongdoing? THAT is exactly the point of the laws of rodef i.e it is not our responibility to determine ultimate guilt or innocence through a judicial process when someone who is being chased is in immenent danger. Our responsibility, according to the Torah, is to save the person in danger who is being pursued!
DeleteI have satirized the Agudah position by claiming you need to get psak from a rav before calling the police if a yid is chasing you down the street with a knife. http://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2012/08/28/leading-rabbis-say-dont-call-911/
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteAnd Lo Tirtzach was meant only for Bnei Noach and goyim. Non frum e.g. even a yoshke, also needed 2 witnesses, and that's a whole different ball game. As far as tzaar balei chayim, even kappara or treifa chickens are also included. Hypothetically speaking, Talmud is full of reuven ben Yaakovs' and the rest of the shvatim as Z.B.'s
Deleteit is inconceivable that the Torah would release a Jew from his responsibility to another who is in danger - to save him and to protect him. The Torah is not sub-rational. Is a Jew who can save another but doesn't because of a psak like this expected to continue to lead his life as before, casting off any feelings of responsibility onto the Rabbis? How is one to rationalize such a psak with his own reason and commonsense? Those who blindly and thoughtlessly accept such a psak must demand that the Rabbis themselves take action to protect their communities. Let the Rabbis themselves castrate or murder or imprison the rodef. If they don't then they too are rodfim. It's clear to me that these Rabbis don't want other Jews to act too independently. Their main issue is the power of the Rabbis. The psak is detestable and must be ignored by all who follow halacha.
ReplyDeleteObserver - I love your comment. I never thought of the possibility that rabbis who say patently ridiculous piskei halacha on matters of pikuach nefesh such as child abuse, rachmana lezlan, could themselbes be considered like rodfeim. An important and spiritually shocking point they should consider but probably dont care enough to even give it a seconds thought in passing. Woe is to us that such people are considered rabbinic decisors and leaders!
DeleteThis particular blog is homing in on the truth thanks to Rabbis' Eidensohn, leaving no wiggle room for those directing to sit on your hands beozlat yad, while OMED AL HADAM. They have no more legs to stand on. Indeed, SHEKER EIN LO RAGLAYIM. Lo motzu yadav veraglov beBeit haMidrash. They have exhausted all rhyme and reason in protecting perpetrators, and rodef the victims. It is not the Internet that is the problem, it is the notnim yad laposhim voting them to office in exchange for ESNAN and mechir lo yechratz KELEV lining their pockets at the expense of our neshamelach. Shmor li veEshmor loch. This is a sha'arurya of biblical proportions. We must return to the stadiums and moche bechol toikef. Save our children NOW!
DeleteThere is a great follow-up to this post here...
ReplyDeletehttp://frumfollies.wordpress.com/2013/10/02/lakewood-says-violate-shabbat-to-save-a-child-but-only-from-gentile-molesters/#more-5698
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNot only Lakewood, and not only years ago...
ReplyDeletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com.au/2013/10/update-from-zephaniah-waks-major-rabbi.html
Even with the 2nd letter alone they are contradicting themselves
ReplyDeletehttp://theunorthodoxjew.blogspot.com/2013/08/jews-for-money-shameless_8.html
Heimishe landlords are renting houses all over Lakewood to extremely dangerous non-Jewish sex offenders on the State Police registry. But many of these landlords are wealthy and give money to the yeshiva so nothing is done about it
This post is clearly uninformed. The signs were in reaction to a specific recurring danger. Several instances of children of various ages being lured by goyim occurred within a short period of time. The community needed to be made aware of the problem to be careful. It had nothing to do with abuse or reporting complaints of abuse in the frum community at all.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately we have also become so hypersensitive to the notorious "ABUSE" issue that we are prone to even becoming vigilantes, ever ready to raise the banner for "The victims" and ridicule anything that can be construed as anti victim. Total and clear information is no longer necessary before the excitement of exposing someone or better yet "Rabbis and Leaders" for their wrongdoings.
This post is clearly uninformed. The signs were in reaction to a specific recurring danger. Several instances of children of various ages being lured by goyim occurred within a short period of time. The community needed to be made aware of the problem to be careful. It had nothing to do with abuse or reporting complaints of abuse in the frum community at all.
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately we have also become so hypersensitive to the notorious "ABUSE" issue that we are prone to even becoming vigilantes, ever ready to raise the banner for "The victims" and ridicule anything that can be construed as anti victim. Full and clear information is no longer necessary before the excitement of exposing someone or better yet "Rabbis and Leaders" for their wrongdoings.