Guest post by RaP
Why is it taking so long for all the political parties in Israel to agree to come together and form a government for the good of the people?
Many people are puzzled by this great question, that after four weeks of trying and dealing with such intelligent party leaders, yet PM Netanyahu cannot form a coalition government. He has just received a two-week extension after four weeks of trying.
One would think that with the threat of Iran going more nuclear by the day; Syria in civil war spasms; Hamas and Hezbollah primed like vipers to strike Israel with rockets; Egypt dominated by the new Muslim Brotherhood-affiliated regime; hostile Arabs; rebellious Palestinians; 300,000+ gentiles from the former USSR who have no Jewish identity; porous borders to patrol; poverty; housing shortages; educational challenges in a high tech world; economic threats; worries about what America and Europe could do to harm Israel; and much more, that the Israeli political leadership would come together quickly and face the threats seriously and efficiently.
But no, that is not what they are doing. Firstly there are two new actors on the political stage who have never held any office before with large parties behind them: TV showman Yair Lapid of Yesh Atid (19 seats) and businessman Naftali Bennett of Bayit Yehudi (12 seats), who are acting according to their own agenda of essentially creating a situation that could destroy Netanyahu once and for all, which is precisely their goal.
Secondly, Lapid and Bennett, using the best propaganda techniques of yore, are portraying the Charedim (with 18 seats) as "parasites" who are not doing their share. The "solution" according to them is to throw all young Charedim into the army! Sergeants and corporals and drill masters will then "fix" the Charedim and make them into "good soldiers" who will serve the state and not the yeshivas and bais yaakovs.
Who made up such stuff?
Obviously it's people who know nothing about Jewish history, that for 2,000 years it was precisely "Yavneh and its Sages" that saved the Jewish people and overcame all wars and armies. What Israel needs is more of "Yavneh and its Sages" and not of the army and its sergeants!
From it earliest days, the Likud (31 seats) was put into power by the balance of power votes of the Charedi parties. Netanyahu always crafted coalitions with Charedi parties. But the alliance of Lapid and Bennett is determined to stop that and hence destroy Netanyahu's ability to hook up with his natural allies and function politically. But more than that, Lapid and Bennett want to neuter Netanyahu completely. Lapid has never held office, a year ago no one took him seriously as a politician, but he now openly declared he "will be" prime minister of Israel in "eighteen months"! He wants Netanyahu's job without ever run anything but his TV studio. Bennett worked for Netanyahu, then became a CEO of a high tech company that he sold for $150 million so he figures he can be "CEO of Israel" and he is now fighting to turn the tables on his old boss. There is no love lost between any of them, so how can there be a "cabinet" between them?
The one refrain that is heard over and over again from Lapid and Bennett is that they want to conscript the Charedim, as if that is the greatest goal any human can aspire to. Not even the Labor party (18 seats) wants to conscript Charedim!
If Lapid and Bennett have done one thing it is to unite the Charedim like never before. For the first time the two leadership Moetzes of both the Degel HaTorah and Agudas Yisroel met together. Chasidim and Litvaks are now 100% united to fight their common adversaries. Add to this that the Sefardim under Shas are as tightly united with Yahadut HaTorah (UTJ) as the UTJ is internally united within itself, all due thanks to the outside threats from Lapid and Bennett. Thank you Yair and Naftali for accomplishing achdus in the Olam haTorah! Yidden are praying harder to HKB"H because of you!
Most seriously, the threats to drag Charedi boys into the army has become an obsession that is going nowhere. It is becoming a frenzy that is heating up the "lynch mob" mentality among the Chilonim. Are they going to put 50,000 bochurim in jails? If so, why not put 500,000 Mamas and Tatas and brothers and sisters of the Charedim into "detention camps" for harboring "deserters" just like the British put potential olim in such camps in Cyprus for having the chutzpa to want to come to Israel?
Imagine a bochur is 18 or 19 and he is learning quietly like a masmid, not bothering anyone, just shtaiging in Torah and Yiras Shomayim and suddenly he is informed that if he, or she because they want girls to serve to, does not show up to "register" for the army he/she is subject to "arrest" and "imprisonment" thereby becoming "criminals"! This is truly the "mida of Sedom" whereby innocent people are deemed "guilty" while genuine pimps, perverts, prostitutes and perps roam the streets of Israel freely because they have previously "served" in the army! How crazy is that!
The last time Jews faced a massive threat of conscription like this was under the Czars of Russia that for hundreds of years subjected Jews and other citizens to long army service that eventually contributed to a massive overthrow and revolution, and we know how that ended for the Czars and their nobles and their army.
One thing about Netanyahu, like him or not, all the years, he has always come out creating an alliance with the Charedi parties and even though he growls at Charedim from time to time, he has never outright bitten or smitten them outright. Not so the new forces of Lapid and his so-called Yesh Atid ("Ein Atid" would be more apt) and Bennett and his so-called Bayit Yehudi (Rav Ovadia Yosef called it a "Bayit Shel Goyim") who want to destroy Netanyahu, who scheme to thereby stop Netanyahu's ability to ally himself with the Charedim and thereby destroy his main zechusim, and in their delusional fantasy CH"V destroy the world of Torah learning.
Even among the Likud, there are those, like former General Moshe Yaalon who warns that there must not be sudden harsh acts to conscript Charedim. If anything, one must allow for a "evolutionary" process and try to accommodate the needs of Charedim to make it comfortable for VOLUNTEERS to join. In any case, no normal person wants forced conscripts to "defend" anything! In fact, there are many in Israel who assert that Israel is at the point where it could do away with the draft for everyone and switch to an all-volunteer professional army, with citizens receiving some basic self-defense training. But this you never hear about, unless you read the news very closely.
Great Rachamei Shamayim is needed, it is an Eis Tzara LiYisrael !!
Imagine a bochur is 18 or 19 and he is learning quietly like a masmid, not bothering anyone, just shtaiging in Torah and Yiras Shomayim and suddenly he is informed that if he, or she because they want girls to serve to, does not show up to "register" for the army he/she is subject to "arrest" and "imprisonment" thereby becoming "criminals"!
ReplyDeleteImagine a young man is working quietly making money, not bothering anyone, just supporting his family, and suddenly he is informed that if he does not pay "taxes" to the country, he is subject to "arrest" and "imprisonment" thereby becoming "criminals"!
"RBS resident said...imagine a young man is working quietly making money, not bothering anyone, just supporting his family, and suddenly he is informed that if he does not pay "taxes" to the country, he is subject to "arrest" and "imprisonment" thereby becoming "criminals"!"
ReplyDeleteNot sure what you mean by this? Could you explain yourself, it is hard to understand what you really driving at. Thanks.
Not sure what you meant by your original statement. People have responsibilities to the country. If you fail to fulfill your responsibilities then, yes, you are a criminal.
Delete"RBS resident...Not sure what you meant by your original statement. People have responsibilities to the country. If you fail to fulfill your responsibilities then, yes, you are a criminal."
DeleteHave you read everything or just getting hung up on that? How sad that you are not thinking like a Torah Jew! The first obligation of any Jew is to Hashem and His Torah. The laws of the modern state of Israel are a confusing concoction of Turkish Law, British Common Law, and whatever the secular Knesset has dished up over the years since 1948 backed by the secular court system that was also created by the Turks and embellished by the British with cherries on top from Israeli academics and barristers, not trained in any classical Yeshivas of any sort, that cannot and does not trump the Halacha and the Mitzvos. What planet are you on?
So to get back to your question. There is nothing "illegal" in being a yeshiva bochur and it is does not make one a "criminal" to sit and learn in a yeshiva with hasmoda and grow in yiras shamayim. If a man is out in the world and working already, he is in a different situation and then it becomes a question of what percent of income should be fairly given up to taxes. Again, a secular system cannot trump Halacha that does not require the giving of the basic amount of 10%, or at the most 20%, of income/profits to tzedaka, in the most basic situation. Of course in the times of the Tanach a King could levy additional taxes, and perhaps this the basis for a country to require taxation, but again, it cannot be "legislated" upon the Jewish people from the dark recesses of Turkish Law and English Common Law and decrees of the secular Knesset that set up the legal system of the modern state of Israel. From a Torah point of view all this is subject to negotiation and change, while the study of Torah by the young is not negotiable, as you can see from the way all the Charedi rabbis are reacting to the current threats from Lapid and Bennett against them.
Actually, Chareidim routinely served in the army as recently as the Yom Kippour War. Lots of Roshei Yeshivos had a dilema (years later when they were next called up) during the first Gulf war, how to deal with their gas masks / beards as they were called up outside the safety of their sealed rooms.
ReplyDeleteEven the person who pulled the switch which sounded the alarms was (and is) a Rosh Yeshiva from Har Nof.
It's essentialy a sad statement about our Chinuch that we are 100% sure that putting a bochur in the army will destroy his Yiddishkeit. there's nothing trief about the army (or the internet) it depends how you approach it. I know of a non-Charied frum South African who got Smicha (Yoreh Yoreh from Rav ZN Goldberg) the same week he graduated from Golani with flying colors.
And he's never owned a hat in this life.
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.co.il/2012/11/picture-of-day_20.html
DeleteActually, Chareidim routinely served in the army as recently as the Yom Kippour War.
Deleteactually a tad bit after that; the limits on deferment were lifted when begin was elected in 77.
The one refrain that is heard over and over again from Lapid and Bennett is that they want to conscript the Charedim
ReplyDelete==================================
The one refrain that is heard over and over again from Lapid and Bennett is that they want Charedim to shoulder a fair share of the overall societal burden, by society's definition
KT
Joel Rich
Hi Joel Rich: It's the same thing, six of one and half a dozen of the other: conscript Charedim=shared burden
DeleteYou say that: "The one refrain that is heard over and over again from Lapid and Bennett is that they want Charedim to shoulder a fair share of the overall societal burden, by society's definition"
And.....it's just a big load of baloney. How stupid can one be to accuse about 500,000+ Charedim in Israel, who are busy building huge Jewish families, marrying Jews, taking care of children at all stages, keeping up a Torah lifestyle, building communities, buying products, food, clothing, goods, etc and then pumping all that money back into the general economy of Israel, bringing in billions to Israel from their brethren all over the world who donate and build institutions, with so much positive growth and accomplishments, yet still make these people look like "parasites" because they refuse to go under the command of screaming sergeant majors and Israeli soldier girls in tight army hot pants who will make them run marathons with backpacks.
What has become of true Jewish values?
Since when did the attitude of the US Marines become the way Jews should behave?
If secular Israelis and religious Zionists want to be soldiers then good for them, but they have lost their way if they think that the optimal way a Jew should behave is by acting like the cut-throats and gun-men portrayed by John Wayne or Clint Eastwood or be agents like James Bond.
The Jew was not born to be a soldier like any other conscripted private in some junky army. The Jew was created to be a Godly vehicle for Torah and Yiras Shamayim that can only be taught and absorbed and transmitted in our days in yeshivas and bais yaakovs. Lapid and Bennett have never experienced this, they do not know what helped the Jew survive for 2000 years facing all the wars and armies in the world, and thus they are 100% am ha'aretzim because they know ZERO Torah. It is theory to them. That is why they are suffering from delusions, imagining that they are going to forcibly "shmad" the Charedim as if they were Greeks or Romans forbidding Jews to study Torah openly the way Jews have done and not the way the Chilonim delude themselves about it.
this article does a nice job of slamming the other guy without once asking "what was our part in creating this crisis". the crisis to which i am referring isn't the negotiations, but the incredible, incredible gap (or even antipathy, hatred) between the various orthodox communities.
ReplyDeleteyes i am fully aware that srugim have contributed more than their share to this process. but do you really think that the chareidi community is faultless?
originally i was going to list a whole bunch of issues, but now i realize that would be pointless and too time consuming for me (at the moment). and more importantly, my making a list would distract from my question above.
A good start would be 12 Good Reasons Why Secular Israelis Reject Haredim
Deletemy list would have been a bit different because i was referring to issues specifically relevant to srugi - black kippa divide.
DeleteAre you saying the boys that join Nachal Charedi and the other programs designed for Charedim in the Israeli army are losers, bums, and off the derech?
ReplyDeleteA very confused and dishonest article. As a Haredi I understand the feelings about 'forced' conscription, but as a writer and teacher I am embarrassed by the weak arguments. Czarist Russia conscripted young Jewish boys to serve 25 years as Cantonists with the goal of weaning Jews away from any semblence of Judaism. Is this a serious comparison for Nahal Haredi or any other form of IDF service? Is the mitzvah of protecting Eretz HaKodesh no different from supporting Czarist oppression? Israel is a dmocracy and has the right to make reasonable laws, including payment of taxes and national service. Those who reject the validly enacted Laws of the Land open themselves to sanctions. The 'secular' media have waged a war against Haredim, making the most abnormal appear to be run of the mill. We have not used the media to fight back and this has compounded the problem -- and some of the criticism was not doubt valid!
ReplyDelete"teacher said...Czarist Russia conscripted young Jewish boys to serve 25 years as Cantonists with the goal of weaning Jews away from any semblence of Judaism."
DeletePlease explain how the secular Israeli army is different, with lifelong miluim that has contributed to hundreds of thousands of secular Israelis making yerida because they just can't stand lifetime conscription.
A lot of heartache and anger could have been spared now and over the past sixty years had Chareidim respectfully marked Yom Hazikaron. Or publicly proclaimed special Tehillim sessions for captured soldiers. Or made a point of davening loudly at the kotel for the safety of the Jewish soldiers. Without davening or learning specifically for these Jewish boys, the argument that the Chareidim are contributing to society in their way sounds shallow (and selfish).
ReplyDeleteI think this may be true. The insult is far more offensive than the injury, and too many people have learned nothing at all.
Delete"Bunsa Bayis said...A lot of heartache and anger could have been spared now and over the past sixty years had Chareidim respectfully marked Yom Hazikaron."
DeleteJust shows how you just don't get frum thinking. As far as Charedim are concerned EVERY DAY is a "yom hazikaron" because they know what the Nazis did to them and how millions of Jews were murdered. By staying Jewish, practicing Yiddishkeit and having LOTS of children is their way of getting revenge against the Nazis, Y"SH, and no one needs to go out a light some candles and some secular female Israeli soldier girls hum an empty tune.
uh....you're obviously confusing Yom HaShoah for Yom HaZikaron. How telling it is that you don't even know the difference! Yom Hazikaron is a day of remembrance for all Israeli soldiers that died in action.
DeleteAnd don't condescendingly tell me that I "don't get frum thinking". I am frum! I grew up in Boro Park! I'm a Bais Yaakov graduate. And, in the Chassidishe school I went to for elementary school, I learned that Moshe Rabeinu did not bring the first three makos out of hakaras hatov for the river and the earth who saved him. The river and the earth are inanimate objects. Kal v'chomer, we must have hakaras hatov for human beings!
"Bunsa Bayis...uh....you're obviously confusing Yom HaShoah for Yom HaZikaron."
DeleteI do know the difference, but I am human (yup). You are right, I was typing very quickly and I did type in one day instead of the other (both commemorate tragic events of the deaths of Jews in wars, so one is not Less or more than the other), but it makes absolutely no difference because in the context of this discussion they are the same since if you are talking about Yom HaShoah or Yom HaZikaron then to the Charedim they are the same: just days invented by the secular Zionists that have no meaning to them and hence they boycott them in principle. Since could Charedim be convinced to observe Yom HaZikaron?? And even if a few did stand in silence on Yom HaZikaron would that change the attitude of the Chilonim against them.
But hey, I am sure that the bais yaakovs you were in never taught you about either Yom HaShoah for Yom HaZikaron so you must have picked up a different point of view some place else at some point along the line.
You also say "that Moshe Rabeinu did not bring the first three makos out of hakaras hatov for the river and the earth who saved him. The river and the earth are inanimate objects. Kal v'chomer, we must have hakaras hatov for human beings!" as if that's a reason to bow down to the secular ideologies in israe.
You may not know this but in Torah Yiddishkeit "Hakoras HaTov" applies only in MIDDOS BUT NOT in DEI'OS, if you know what that means.
Thus while of course everyone needs to be polite and have derech eretz and behave politely to other people, BUT by the same token it DOES NOT MEAN that we must take on or accept secular views or ideology or point of view. Thus one can be a very nice Chosid and Charedi Yeshiva Bochur and must strive to treat all others befitting the laws of bein adam lechaveiri, HOWEVER, for the HASHKOFAS and CORRECT TORAH THINKING one must be guided by the teachings of one's Rebbeim and Roshei Yeshiva and Gedolim and if they say that it is forbidden for yeshiva bochurim and bais yaakov girls to serve in the army, then those views are part of accepting the mitzva of listening to one's rabbis and not caving in to being nice to people by joining them in the army.
There is a greater and higher value in Torah learning and preservation of Torah life than shooting guns, firing cannons and driving tanks. If that is something you want to do or you want your children to do it, fine feel free, there is no problem then, but you CANNOT forcibly conscript tens of thousands of Charedi army refusers.
Honestly one cannot imagine what kind of army that would be with such a huge "trojan horse" and literal "fifth column" that would refuse to take orders from anyone in the army because they ONLY take "orders" from their Rebbes, Rosh Yeshivas and Gedolim. S chill out, back off, and leave the Charedim alone! Try solving some other problems where you will have more luck.
Also, dear Author of this post, what about the "perverts" not in Jail in the Charedi community because the Rabbinical leaders push it away from criminal court ("We'll take care of it.") Those are ACTUAL Sedomites, fella.
ReplyDelete"Adam said...Also, dear Author of this post, what about the "perverts" not in Jail in the Charedi community"
DeleteThe owner of this blog, and I have joined with him 100% as much as I can over the years, have been fighting Charedi perversions, and taking the heat for it as well.
You can't deny that Lapid is smart. By beating the enlistment drum he has almost got himself into a tight coalition with his close buddy, Bennet. That's not quite prime minister but well on the way. If this is what he learnt in show business maybe he'd make for a good PM in the end. I don't like all this weeping and complaining. Politics is politics. If Lapid outsmarts the chareidim due to chareidi incompetence and disunity, who's to blame for that? Iran, Syria, etc., two weeks here or there won't kill the country. This is democracy folks.
ReplyDeleteI spoke to my mechuton who was one of the major players in Israel in the Haredi world, HaGaon Reb Elozor Brizel zt"l, about this issue. This issue was discussed at the founding of the state and there is a halacha response. Women may not be in any way subject to government dictates, and this is a matter of life and death. But men are not forbidden from going to the army. After this, the issue gets bogged down with a lot of non-halacha issues, but I want to mention one thing. When I was young, I visited Israel, and someone walked past me on Shabbos flashing his wallet. I walked through a neighborhood and a kid came out and threatened me with knife. When I just stared at him, as he was a little kid, he sliced his finger with the knife and it bled. See, he said, it is sharp. Just then his mother came running out and made him come in the house. In those days there were very few haredim or frumeh people and they were despised. Everyone assumed they would soon disappear in the "new Israel." And they were disappearing. I mentioned the above mechuton the Gaon Reb Elozor Brizel zt"l. His children were about the only ones in their class that remained truly Torah dik. Therefore, governments run by Labor and others willingly took in Haredim because they did not mix into the crucial political issues and were satisfied with a certain spiritual control of the religious matters in the country and with some money for their institutions. But today, everyone knows that the Haredim are not disappearing. In fact, when a great rabbi passed away after a very long life, an Israel newspaper ran an article about his thousand progeny, as it was a terrible thing. For the secular people, a huge Haredi increase in population and a dearth of children from many of the secular people plus many secular people leaving the country, means that the entire Zionist dream is doomed. This is the real issue today. Will Israel be a Haredi state or will it be something else? I don't know how easy it will be to resolve this issue. But one thing is for sure. As haredim grow in number, they have to worry about the impression others have of them, because people now say, "These are the ones who will control the country in a few decades?"
ReplyDeleteAm I missing something? Your anecdote does not make much sense as printed.
DeleteOh, and another point. Who cares about the good of Eretz Yisroel? The Shas official who spoke of taking revenge against Bennett by supporting disengagement from settlements in the West Bank?
ReplyDelete"Avraham1 said...The Shas official who spoke of taking revenge against Bennett by supporting disengagement from settlements in the West Bank?"
DeletePolitical commentators in Israel have stated that Bennett has single-handedly set back and endangered the whole settler movement by opening the genie of Charedi political pragmatism. The Charedi leadership has ruled that the most important thing is keeping the yeshivas safe and functioning and forbidding forced conscription of yeshiva bochurim. If it means that the West Bank will be handed back to the PLO that will be on Bennett's head if Netanyahu is forced to create an alliance of convenience with Labor and the Charedim to head off the rise of the two novices Lapid and Bennett and their dangerous naive self-promotion and cheap politicking.
While I respect the concerns raised by RAP in this post, I cannot help but think that The Hareidi communities have brought this upon themselves. They certainly have done a poor job of PR over the years.
ReplyDeleteMore to the point, the Rebbes and Roshei Yeshiva have encouraged their flocks to remain in the Yeshivas and exchew participation in the larger Israeli society, both in terms of service and commerce. Thousands upon thousands of yound men are sitting in Yeshivas, but what percentage of those are learning with appropriate havana and hasmoda? Let's go out on a limb and say it is 80%, a figure I personally do not believe. Nevertheless, had the Hareidi leadership years ago used their political clout to make a deal and set up a system whereby the other 20%, those that are just hiding in the Yeshivas, would be sent to do service in the army in a kosher surrounding, they would have obviated the entire argument of Lapid et al. The head in the sand obstinancy of the Hareidi leadership, coupled with the impression that the entire Hareidi community is living on the dole has given their enemies all the ammunition they need.
They may be forced now to pay the piper. Sad because it could have turned out differently and saved a lot of chillul Hashem.
"dave said...I cannot help but think that The Hareidi communities have brought this upon themselves. They certainly have done a poor job of PR over the years."
DeleteAgain, another person who has no clue how frum communities function. They do not care about "PR" and do think in those terms. They are too busy with educating their youth in yeshivas, earning a livelihood (yes, most are actually doing under the table in Israel), raising large families, marrying off their kids and grandkids, and for many keeping body and soul together fighting off crushing poverty, so that notions like "PR" and "media relations" is just not part of their lexicon or way of functioning. The frum will think in terms of hachnosas orchim (welcoming strangers into their homes for meals and rest) or kiruv levavos (bringing Jews closer to Judaism), but they do not think, and never will, in terms of getting into "media campaigns" and news spin -- for that there is Lapid and his sidekick Bennett who think in those terms.
RaP, how do you breathe the same air as these areilim? You seem to want to go back to the good old days when the Chilonim and Hareidim perceived each other as swine. Actually, it is the good old days for you - comparing them to the Czars. Time is passing you by.
ReplyDeleteI wish to ask a rhetorical question - which do not necessarily reflect my own views, but to understand your views.
ReplyDeleteIf the haredi parties are political parties 9a luxury they never had in Europa), and they are playing the game of democracy, ie voting, and winning seats, then what is so evil if they are voted out of one government?
It is claimed that this will destroy Torah. Yet the learning was much greater in Europe, and the haredim dress, speak and live as if they are still in their beloved Europe (or Arabia). Yet the litvaks, germans, arabs, morrocans, poles, russians etc never gave stipends to yeshivot. You cannot be Haredi +, you ahve to be either Haredi or not. If you wish to live by the old ways, then playing politics, getting government grants etc, is out. Look at Brisk, who deny such handouts.
Furthermore, being less influential in politics might make haredim more influential in society. Once people get a feeling that you are nto trying to extort them, they may just pay more attention to what you really believe and say.
"Eddie said...Furthermore, being less influential in politics might make haredim more influential in society. Once people get a feeling that you are nto trying to extort them, they may just pay more attention to what you really believe and say."
DeleteAgreed! In fact bottom line, while it may frighten them the Charedim are quite capable of not being part of any government. Charedim are pragmatists in Israel. They regard all the secular parties as "off the derech" and it is just a case of doing what you can to "save the remnant" and if a government will cooperate then fine, and if not Charedim will survive on their own, just as they have survived for the last 2000 years on their own they can survive another 2000 years on their own. And you may ask, what is the secret of their confidence? Simple! They believe that God is on their side, and just as He has not let them down for the last 2000 years and He will not let them down for the future either. Somehow or other, the Torah Jews have always won in the end against their enemies from among their own people whether they have had to resist Hellenists, Herodians, Nazarenes, Sadducees, Samaritans, Karaites, Sabbateans, Maskilim, Reformers, Bundists, Socialists, Assimilationists, Jews for J, and ummmm Zionists, it makes no difference, because none of the above have ever managed to crush or change (certainly not by force or decrees) the true Torah Jews at any time in any place, and nothing is going to change now either. Just stay tuned and watch!
RAP, you are living a delusion. "Charedi" is a recent phenomenon. You even slip up and write Torah Jews a few sentences. As if someone who is not "Charedi" is not a Torah Jew. That's insulting. It also ridiculous because many "Charedim" would not consider you to be Charedi!
Delete"Adam said...RAP, you are living a delusion."
DeleteRaP: Are the Charedi rabbis in Israel also in a delusional state by saying they will go to jail first if their talmidim are shanghaied into the army?
" "Charedi" is a recent phenomenon."
RaP: The term HERE, in this essay, is used to refer to "ultra-Orthodox" Jews, Chasidish Jews, and to those belonging to the Black hat yeshiva world as well as to the those Sefardim who follow the rabbis of the Shas political party. I think everyone knows what is meant here, you are just trying to play word games and waste time while avoiding the real issues. You want to call them "frum fanatic" Jews feel free, but we are NOT talking about the Modern Orthodox Jews or the Religious Zionists, nor the Mesoratim, nor the Reform nor Conservatives for that matter.
"You even slip up and write Torah Jews a few sentences. As if someone who is not "Charedi" is not a Torah Jew. That's insulting."
RaP: No slip up it is deliberate because for the purposes of this essay: Charedim=Torah Jews=Frum Jews=Chasidish Jews=Black hat Jews=Sheitel ladies etc. I think you know quite well what is meant, but again you are just trying to play word games while not focusing on the arguments.
"It also ridiculous because many "Charedim" would not consider you to be Charedi!"
RaP: How do you know that? In any case, believe it or not, this is an attempt at objective analysis that has nothing to do with me or you or anyone, it's about the situation as this writer sees it. Take it or leave it.
" As if someone who is not "Charedi" is not a Torah Jew. That's insulting "
RaP: Unfortunately, in this case those who wish to conscript all the yeshiva bochurim and bais yaakov girls are NOT regarded as Torah Jews, they are mixed up traitors to Yiddishkeit who have lost their way and have made political Zionism into a replacement religion=avoda zara as a substitute for a 2000 year age old Torah-true Judaism and who think that serving in the modern army is as important or more important than learning Torah the way its been done for 2000 -- with no distractions -- even goyim give theology students deferments for life. Let me repeat what I wrote above, what Israel and the Jewish people needs is MORE of Rebbe Yochanan BEn Zakkai's Yavneh and its Sages and not the army and its sergeants of modern day latterly wannabe Bar Kochbas. Let all the secular and Religious Zionist Jews and all the 300,000+ gentiles from the former USSR and the 100,000+ Falashas with no Jewish identity serve in the army, no problem, but NO ONE has the right to come with force and destroy the heart and soul of the Jewish people which is the Torah, it's scholars and those who practice and intense Torah lifestyle the way the Charedim and Chasidim do. Stop trying to shmad them by force and with threats into being something they will never become! It's crazy, cruel, will not work and will only get you nowhere or worse.
"Great Rachamei Shamayim is needed, it is an Eis Tzara LiYisrael !!"
ReplyDeleteHyperbole much?
I can't imagine what more you would have written if it had been Poland, 1939, R"L.
"Bunsa Bayis..."Great Rachamei Shamayim is needed, it is an Eis Tzara LiYisrael !!"
DeleteHyperbole much? I can't imagine what more you would have written if it had been Poland, 1939, R"L"
It's actually much worse because Iran is threatening to wipe out Israel with a nuclear Holocaust (and mass assimilation in the West is destroying all the secular Jews) while the likes of Lapid and Bennett recklessly endanger everyone with their games of brinkmanship and showmanship as they sadistically torture Netanyahu and threaten Torah Jews with conscription that would make Tzahal into a joke with all those Chasidisha soldiers (peyos flying, white socks, bekishas, shtreimels, and laceless shoes), who would finally overturn the state and make it Charedi with all their demands for glatt kosher this and that, and special needs for everything, every other day yom tov and davening at all hours, is that the kind of soldier Israel needs right now? Wouldn't it better of the yeshiva bochurim continued with their Torah lishma and the secular Israelis dealt with being good soldiers like they know they have to be. Let each group play its role and let's stop trying to make a disastrous cholent that no one could eat out of Israel instead!
The Haredim have been raised to believe that their task in life is to learn and be spiritual. For generations now that is what people expected of them, as the government accepted this and other people didn't care about them assuming they would eventually disappear. But now that secular people are slipping back into minority status with the huge birthrate of the Haredim, the rules are in abeyance. In the future years that are not so far away, when Haredim become half or more of Israel, are the Haredim still going to spend their time not earning and not helping in the army? The people have not changed. The power and obvious number of Haredim has changed, and that is going to get more and more difficult for others to tolerate, until haredim become the majority of the country.
ReplyDeleteBefore that the Orthodox will become the majority, because modern Orthodox also have high birth rates. And the modern Orthodox will also want to know why they can't spend their lives in Yeshivas or doing other things besides serving in the army.
In pure halacha terms, serving in the army is not a sin, and there is a very serious halacha shaalo if one should evade service when the government demands it. Anything that is a need of the community, such as in ancient times building a wall to protect the community or finding a well to bring water to the community falls upon everyone in the community. The idea that some people decide they have better things to do or are too holy for this does not exist in halacha. But i don't know if everyone knows this. And this problem can tear the state apart, because today's religious people, unless they have the right leadership, are open for grabs, and nobody knows what will happen. Bottom line, it is true that those who demand Haredim going to work and going into the army at least many of them really hate Haredim and maybe even frumeh people, but this does not mean that their complaints are invalid, nor does it mean that halacha supports the Haredim when they refuse to participate in the army or go to work. And of course, those in the Haredi world who want to fight the "zionists" and join the Arabs, well, just let them do that, and you will see what the Arabs will do if they ever conquer Israel. As one of them said, "When we conquer Israel all remaining Jews will be free to live their lives properly. But there will be no remaining Jews."
"every other day yom tov and davening at all hours, is that the kind of soldier Israel needs right now? "
ReplyDeleteso how do these people make a living if they are praying all hours, every other day yom?
this is one small example of why this entire post is simply bad propaganda and nothing more than that.
"Ben Waxman..."every other day yom tov and davening at all hours, is that the kind of soldier Israel needs right now? "
ReplyDeleteso how do these people make a living if they are praying all hours, every other day yom?"
What don't you get? The unmarried bochurim are learning and praying and would do so in the army as well, while the married ones know that they must also work and seek a livelihood (and most Charedim are involved in clandestine ways of making a living that is not visible above the surface). Like students in college who don't work and are not expected to work, they study and only when they go out into the "real world" are they expected to work. If you insist in reducing everything about Charedim into a caricature, and all you want to do is send them all into the army dog house, then you reveal your own petrified (in more ways than one) state of mind. This thing of trying to send everyone in Israel to the army does not work and is destroying Israeli life. Let volunteers serve as professionals, give civilians some very basic training that should not take more than three months (how long does it take to learn to aim and shoot and take care of a weapon or learn one or two important functions? -- There is no need to keep people slaves of the state forever.)
what don't you get? if all the davening and yom tovim are simply chumrot or practices or whatever you want to call them that only yeshiva guys practice, than once they leave the yeshiva and enter givati and golani and egoz they won't have a problem.
Deletelook, you either call something a religious requirement about which there is no compromise or you don't call it that. but you can't say that davening mincha for an hour is a chiyuv about which we are willing to go to war, and then turn around and say "but only if you aren't married; then it is OK to daven it in 5 minutes".
btw - yom tovim are listed in the chumash and that's it. other than that there are a few days that chazel instituted it. if bochurim have come up with their own, that is their issue but no one else's concern.
"Ben Waxman said...what don't you get? if all the davening and yom tovim are simply chumrot or practices or whatever you want to call them that only yeshiva guys practice, than once they leave the yeshiva and enter givati and golani and egoz they won't have a problem."
DeleteRaP: This comment just shows that you live in world where Religious Zionism sees itself as equal with and in a war with Charedi Judaism. So let's just make it clear, forget your fantasy, the young men and women of the Charedi institutions have been COMMANDED, on pain of "yehareg ve'al ya'avor", by THEIR commanding officers, the Rebbes, Rabbanim, Roshei Yeshiva and Gedolim, NOT to join the Israeli army. Period and full stop!! Get that into your head. But why do you want to force tens of thousands of people to do something they will run away from? Do you think they will be loving and dedicated soldiers if your force them into the army? You will destroy the very army you want to drag the Charedim into by bringing in a "trojan horse" and "fifth column" that cannot be broken-in because they only take orders from the outside.
"look, you either call something a religious requirement about which there is no compromise or you don't call it that. but you can't say that davening mincha for an hour is a chiyuv about which we are willing to go to war, and then turn around and say "but only if you aren't married; then it is OK to daven it in 5 minutes".
RaP: Just how out of reality are you? Do you even know the first thing about the Charedi way of doing things? Again, from your comments it looks like you want to destroy the Charedim, not just take their boys and girls into the army. But it's not going to happen, so find something else to threaten and take aim at.
"btw - yom tovim are listed in the chumash and that's it. other than that there are a few days that chazel instituted it. if bochurim have come up with their own, that is their issue but no one else's concern."
RaP: Again with the whacked out stuff. The bochurim do not "invent" anything, they FOLLOW their chinuch they received from their homes and yeshivas and bais yaakovs that are in turn guided and headed to the full by their rabbinic leadership, the Rebbes, Rabbanim, Roshei Yeshiva and Gedolim, they are living according to a 2000 year-old mesora, while religious Zionism as a form of serving the army only starts in 1948. Who do you think has the better credentials here? The 2000 tradition or the new kid on the block? It's like Lapid, a year ago who was just a glitzy coiffed pundit on Israeli TV now he wants to rule Israel and make decisions about the fate of the Jewish people. That is typical Israeli chutzpa and it will destroy the Jewish people if put in place.
RaP - do you live in israel?
Deleteactually reading this post gives me the feeling that RaP is simply trolling and is not trying at all to be serious in his presentation of the chareidi view point.
Delete"Ben Waxman...actually reading this post gives me the feeling that RaP is simply trolling and is not trying at all to be serious in his presentation of the chareidi view point."
DeleteWhy is it every time one goes to the trouble of writing a guest post and having it accepted by the blog owner, and then taking the trouble to answer in great detail, that there is always a bright spark whose response comes back that it's "trolling" rather than focusing on the discussion at hand and having the courtesy to come up with good counter-arguments and facts rather than besmirching the poster.
By the way, what difference does geography as to where one lives make as long as one's brain is working. Yes, I live in Israel, doesn't every good Jew?
, that there is always a bright spark whose response comes back that it's "trolling" rather than focusing on the discussion at hand and having the courtesy to come up with good counter-arguments and facts rather than besmirching the poster.
DeleteWADR you besmirch yourself. you make accusations of my wanting to destroy chareidi life when i all i did was to point out contradictions in your posts.
for example you claim that chareidim daven all day and then backtrack and state that this only applies to avreichim (when they are supposed to be learning btw).
my reply to that claim is fine, i have no problem with that, understand that yeshiva guys have a different life style than baal habatim, and respect that. i merely add that since that is the case, the yeshiva boys won't have a problem in the army because the moment that they leave yeshiva they can daven like everyone else.
and stop with this nonsense about 2000 years (yes NONSENSE). up until the zionist entity came along, the number of yeshiva guys was limited in the extreme. take all the guys learning in europe before world war 1, put them in the Mir, and you would have tons of empty space. there are so many yeshiva guys today thanks to the zionists and our willingness to fund the yeshivot.
halacha is EXTREMELY flexible for people not in ideal circumstances. the army, by definition, is not an ideal circumstance. chareidi spokesmen can make these types of claims when speaking on galei zahal because they are talking to people who know nothing. they don't work with anyone who has learned for more than 10 minutes.
"Ben Waxman said...WADR you besmirch yourself. you make accusations of my wanting to destroy chareidi life when i all i did was to point out contradictions in your posts."
DeleteRaP: You mean you want to improve the Charedim?
"for example you claim that chareidim daven all day and then backtrack and state that this only applies to avreichim (when they are supposed to be learning btw)."
RaP: Not sure what you are getting at. In this discussion I say things in a free-flowing way, not every word is literal, often I am trying to get a concept or a message across. Charedim learn and daven a lot, it would interfere with the army and with the Charedim. Why do you want to make this into "a forced marriage made in HELL" when neither the Charedim nor the army want each other? Only demagogues on the sidelines make punching bags out the Charedim and create scenarios that everyone knows will not fly in the real world.
"my reply to that claim is fine, i have no problem with that, understand that yeshiva guys have a different life style than baal habatim, and respect that. i merely add that since that is the case, the yeshiva boys won't have a problem in the army because the moment that they leave yeshiva they can daven like everyone else."
RaP: You are in fantasy-land because not one Charedi rov has said what you say. They are telling everyone to stay put in yeshiva or wherever they are and defy the army and the politicians. This I am not making up. Just follow the Charedi media and read for yourself.
"and stop with this nonsense about 2000 years (yes NONSENSE). up until the zionist entity came along, the number of yeshiva guys was limited in the extreme. take all the guys learning in europe before world war 1, put them in the Mir, and you would have tons of empty space."
RaP: Oh, so now you deny 2000 years of Jewish history? when the majority of all Jews were only Torah Jews and whenever any group deviated from the fold forever, in Israel or outside, it vanished.
"there are so many yeshiva guys today thanks to the zionists and our willingness to fund the yeshivot.
RaP: When Judea was destroyed by the Romans it was ONLY "Yavneh and its Sages" that kept the people going and FLOURISHING as a Torah nation and there were no "army and its sergeants" to do that. Stop, yes STOP, this NONSENSE about how wonderful the zionists are, it's just a new form of idol worship, that's all. Get real. Grow up.
"halacha is EXTREMELY flexible for people not in ideal circumstances. the army, by definition, is not an ideal circumstance. chareidi spokesmen can make these types of claims when speaking on galei zahal because they are talking to people who know nothing. they don't work with anyone who has learned for more than 10 minutes."
RaP: I am sure the rabbis of UTJ and Shas know how to apply Torah and Halacha for their people and you do not need to tell them what to do. Again, it does not matter what you hear on talk shows anywhere, the REALITY is that Charedim are NOT going to join the army by force. Sure, let volunteers join if they like, but no army wants forced conscripts and no nation can survive by persecuting its own co-religionists. How about you focus on problems among the Chilonim: Low birth rate, yerida, crime, broken educational system, more than 1,000,000 abortions since 1948, no values, etc, it's bad, so they now find a whipping boy to deflect from their own tzoras when they should be kissing the toes of the Torah learners!
Hey RAP - you lose your credibilty when you begin each answer by assuming or insinuating that the respondent is not frum and has no clue about the frum community and how it works. You were kind enough to respond to my earlier comment, but chose to dwell on one word while conveniently ignoring my entire point. And the more you rant about the Hareidi community's immunity from things like dina d'malchusa dina and responsibility to make sure that their lifestyle causes only kidush Hashem and not chillul Hashem, and the idea of kol Yisrael areivim and the concept of Ahavas Yisrael (which your writings display a complete disregard for) the less credulous your argument is.
ReplyDeleteAnd the idea that the entire commercial world of the Hareidi community is "under the table" is deplorable. Where is all the Torah they are supposedly learning? If you are so immersed in Bava Kama etc, how could you possibly do things that are dishonest? How could you possibly take from others without their consent? Aren't these holy tzadikim supposed to internalize what they are learning? The "es kimt mir" attitude that you portray is anathema to frumkeit and tznius in its truest form.
The leadership of these communities has beggared their population, and we see the parade of these poor people at our door every week looking for hand outs (but never a hand up). The guy with KA"H 11 kids, some with health issues, others who need to get married, and now they are all living in the grandmother's house because the father insists on staying in kollel and not earning a penny. (That was not a composite of several meshulachim - that was truly one guy) At what point does one hit the guy over the head and say you really are not doing your hishtadlus. Oh I gave him a donation, but I can't help but think that after 120 years, when he is asked did you deal honestly in business, he will respond what is business (and perhaps what is honestly)?
So according to you, the non-Hareidi have to serve in the army and pay all the taxes. Hareidim get support from the government. It sounds like a coercive Yissachar-Zevulun relationship. So I'll pose one more question - would the Hareidi community be willing to give up an appropriate percentage of their schar in olam haba to the Chilonim under the current arrangement?
To dave 1:
Delete"dave said...Hey RAP - you lose your credibilty when you begin each answer by assuming or insinuating that the respondent is not frum and has no clue about the frum community and how it works."
RaP: That word "frum" is vague. It seems that most people who have problems with my post are RELIGIOUS ZIONISTS-MIZRACHI-MODERN ORTHODOX (who share a mentality closer to the secular world), and as far as I know they do not refer to themselves as "frum" so the responses are basically from a point of view that tries to UNDERSTAND where the Charedim are coming from, since nowadays they are being attacked and caricatured to no end
"You were kind enough to respond to my earlier comment, but chose to dwell on one word while conveniently ignoring my entire point."
RaP: You mean you want me to say even more than I do? Wow! Thanks!
"And the more you rant about the Hareidi community's immunity from things like dina d'malchusa dina"
RaP: They are not immune and I never said that. But you have missed that I did say that the secular "Jewish" state of Israel is not truly Jewish because its laws are based on Turkish Law and British Common Law as well as a layer of secular law from the Knesset and courts (also set up by the Turks and British -- that are not "batei din"!) and therefore how can one Jew seriously impose that on another Jew? Halachically it is a huge problem. If you don't see it, then you don't appreciate the fact that in Israel, the Jewish Homeland, ALL Jews should be living by Jewish Law and that means Halacha. For that the Charedim follow their rabbis as to how best to fulfill that, and serving in the Israeli army is not on top of the list.
"and responsibility to make sure that their lifestyle causes only kidush Hashem and not chillul Hashem, and the idea of kol Yisrael areivim and the concept of Ahavas Yisrael"
RaP: These are dangerous times. Lapid and Bennett are threatening to entirely uproot the Torah world in Israel and you want people to be calm in the face of threats to engineer their own demise? That is neither logical nor intelligent of you!
"(which your writings display a complete disregard for) the less credulous your argument is."
RaP: Maybe you can do a better job?
"And the idea that the entire commercial world of the Hareidi community is "under the table" is deplorable."
RaP: If you won't let people go to work without serving in the army first, that is a form of blackmail. So what should they do? It is YOU that has driven them underground. To them it's like living under the old-time Bolsheviks, which many officials in the state aparat are.
To dave 2:
Delete"Where is all the Torah they are supposedly learning? If you are so immersed in Bava Kama etc, how could you possibly do things that are dishonest? How could you possibly take from others without their consent? Aren't these holy tzadikim supposed to internalize what they are learning? The "es kimt mir" attitude that you portray is anathema to frumkeit and tznius in its truest form."
RaP: All this that you say about Charedim is what anti-Semites say about ALL Jews. Go back and read up on history and read what Hitler and the Nazis said about all Jews, secular and religious. So watch your words please. The Charedim learn more Torah than anyone and most are very good people. While there are some rotten apples. Any society has them (they are human and some fail). However, most live by, or try to live by, the Shulchan Aruch. According to them they do not have to comply with the decrees of a secular Knesset or Turkish or British law while in Eretz Yisrael. That is how they think. Not my invention.
"The leadership of these communities has beggared their population, and we see the parade of these poor people at our door every week looking for hand outs (but never a hand up). The guy with KA"H 11 kids, some with health issues, others who need to get married, and now they are all living in the grandmother's house because the father insists on staying in kollel and not earning a penny. (That was not a composite of several meshulachim - that was truly one guy) At what point does one hit the guy over the head and say you really are not doing your hishtadlus. Oh I gave him a donation, but I can't help but think that after 120 years, when he is asked did you deal honestly in business, he will respond what is business (and perhaps what is honestly)?"
RaP: If you don't want to give then don't. If you feel someone does not deserve then don't give. But collecting by the poor of Eretz Yisrael is itself tradition that goes back hundreds of years. It is a VOLUNTEER activity and it works, something secular Israelis don't get -- they are just as selfish and destructive as anyone such people and everyone knows secular Israeli are the worst when they come down in society so please don't make them into the "new tzadikim"! By giving tzedaka to poor Jews, any kind of Jews, you earn yourself big mitzvas, so they are doing you a bigger favor. A buck can't even get a good coffee on this planet but it can you a huge mitzva!
"So according to you, the non-Hareidi have to serve in the army and pay all the taxes. Hareidim get support from the government. It sounds like a coercive Yissachar-Zevulun relationship. So I'll pose one more question - would the Hareidi community be willing to give up an appropriate percentage of their schar in olam haba to the Chilonim under the current arrangement?"
RaP: Just leave this army thing out of the discussions. It is a red flag that sets everyone ablaze. Get over it, Charedim are not going to send their young folks to the army. Period and full stop. If some want to go as volunteers then fine. But why would the army want forced conscripts who are a "trojan horse" and "fifth column" ?? -- but more than that, by doing what the Chilonim are pointedly NOT doing, by learning Torah intensely in the yeshivas and building large Torah homes the Charedim are creating zechusim (merits) for the Jews to live in Israel and to get the Blessings of Hashem for that. Lapid and Bennett are driving God and Godliness away and it may have disastrous consequences so let's hope they are not successful in their evil decrees.
Reply
RaP is proud to call his detractors as not thinking like 'torah Jews". i think he should use the term "haredi Jews". I fear that the two terms are not synonymous.
ReplyDeleteRAP - yes I like to read your opinion, even if I don't agree with everything you say.
ReplyDeleteIf I can sum up your assertions about the Hareidi community, they feel that the Medina is as bad as the Bolsheviks and therefore they don't need to co-operate or obey laws. However, they still expect the traifa medina to support their schools, support their way of life, support their Kollels and Yeshivas and leave them alone.
Personally, I agree that the Torah (not necessarily Hareidi)community in Eretz Yisrael is in fact vital to the well being of the state. I suspect that the less radical among the secular would agree as well. The claim that there is a quid pro quo between Torah Jews and the state is true.
But the state is not a halachic state yet, and is not ready to be one. Democracy is currently the best option we have for governance. It has worked reasonably well considering the den of wolves we live among. But it works both ways.
There would not be the proliferation of Yeshivas and Kollelim and seminaries and all that comes with frum Jewish life if the Turks or the British or R"L the Arabs ruled over the country. So Hashem has given the Torah world a great gift in being governed by other Jews, albeit secular ones. For the Hareidi world to turn its back on their brethren is, from the perspective of many, a lack of gratitude, not to the secular and the politicians, but to HKB"H Himself. Their existence and KA"H proliferation was made possible by the environment that Hashem granted them. And the walls they put up between themselves and other Jews is hardly what Hashem asks of us. Judaism should not be Darwinian, with the survival only of the religiously fittest.
We need to view the secular with another moniker - the not yet frum. While worldwide they still out number us, they will slowly come around if we have more open hearts. But the Hareidi view of the secular as Bolsheviks will only lead to bad things.
There is much more but I will stop. And please don't mention Hitler and the Nazis in this conversation. It is a cheap way to stifle debate without answering questions and is, quite frankly, beneath one of your intelligence and passion.
@dave March 7, 2013 at 11:17 PM
DeleteThanks for taking the time to respond, much appreciated.
Let me just ask you one simple question, do you realistically expect to see the Charedi young men and women marched off to the army just because Yair Lapid won votes in the recent elections?
You also confuse two points. Ideology-theory and practice-pragmatism. On an ideological level, meaning on the level of DEI'OT, in this case there are two polar extremes, Secularism-Atheism versus Charedism-Ultra-Orthodoxy. While there does exists a school of thought in Israel that tries to "bridge" those two worlds, let's call it Religious Zionism or Modern Orthodoxy, there is no way that Secularism/Atheism can be meshed with those who have the core religious beliefs of the Charedim (unless you are Yair Lapid of course, you can create your own movie any time). But that does not mean that on the HUMAN level everyone cannot get along.
A Jewish atheist pilot of an El Al plane, designed and built by mostly atheist gentiles in America, can ferry tens of thousands of Charedim on his plane to and fro from Israel every year as the Charedim daven and eat glatt kosher on the plane. It does not mean that as "hakoras hatov" when the Charedim get off the plan they must all think about the values of becoming a secular atheist airline pilot or take on a single one of his values. Likewise it would be absurd to expect of the chiloni El Al pilot to become a baal teshuva to Charedism just because he sees almost only Charedim by the tens of thousands giving him a good living and his company HUGE profits since they pay good money for the airfares and sponsor the airline over others. Without Charedi passengers El Al would be bankrupt!
You see, what people do in their daily lives, and the nitty gritty of getting and receiving things from others and from government/s does not mean they must change their personal ideologies and beliefs. Even the Bolsheviks were nice to Jews, eventually they helped to defeat Hitler and the Nazis, so does that mean Jews must now become Bolsheviks? Nope. Thus, while I can hate-reject your ideology, and you can think I am crazy-wrong to have my beliefs, we can and must respect the fact that as human beings we must all get along in order for society to function. That is why modern Western societies have freedom of religion and other such freedoms. You have the freedom to have your beliefs and Charedim have the freedom to have theirs. To make a "cholent" out of everything is when the problems start. Furthermore in Israel, there is the problem of one Jew threatening to force his point of view down the throat of others.
One more point, the seculars are not "frum to be" and will never be frum, get your mind around that, many are goyim in Israel (300,000+ from the former USSR with no Jewish identity at all) and many are violent atheists and literally Bolsheviks who want to shmad (forcibly convert) the entire population to their particular point of view (as they did when they took Yemenite kids to leftist kibbutzim).
The Charedim are doing the Chilonim a great favor by protecting Torah values, on behalf of everyone, since the Chilonim have no clue what the importance of that is for themselves.
and many are violent atheists and literally Bolsheviks who want to shmad (forcibly convert) the entire population to their particular point of view
ReplyDeletei suppose that painting the other in such black and white terms makes things easy
While there does exists a school of thought in Israel that tries to "bridge" those two worlds, let's call it Religious Zionism or Modern Orthodoxy
a ridiculous over simplification of great thinkers like rav kook, rav soloveitchik, rav lichtenstein and scores of other great rabbanim.
It does not mean that as "hakoras hatov" when the Charedim get off the plan they must all think about the values of becoming a secular atheist airline pilot or take on a single one of his values.
it requires hakarat hatov on several levels. first that he flew them safely. Secondly that there is a company that successfully manages such an incredibly complex enterprise. 3rd that there is an educational system that produces pilots, engineers, service people, etc. values of secular atheism have nothing to do with the issue and putting it in is simply a way of scaring kids. "watch out moishe, if you don't do exactly what your rebbe says, you'll end up a secular atheist."
i still would like to know if you live in israel, because much of what you write is something of a caricature of chareidi life here, not reality. see, i also have many chareidi relatives and friends and what they describe is very different than what you write.
@Ben WaxmanMarch 10, 2013 at 8:39 AM...i still would like to know if you live in israel, because much of what you write is something of a caricature of chareidi life here, not reality. see, i also have many chareidi relatives and friends and what they describe is very different than what you write.
DeleteAn I still would like to know if you want to force all Charedim to become forced conscripts into the Israeli army as if that would "solve" all of Israel's problems? What are the points that your Charedi pals tells you? Can you describe at least one or two points?
The next "Minister of Finance" of Israel:
ReplyDeleteYair Lapid sings 'A Little Help From My Friends'
(YouTube, 43 seconds)
A very sensible approach:
ReplyDeleteArutz Sheva / Israel National News
"Rabbi Melamed: Don't Force Hareidim into Military: Dean of Beit El Yeshiva: financial sanctions and coerced enlistment will contribute nothing.
By Gil Ronen
2/19/2013
Rabbi Zalman Melamed, Dean of Beit El Yeshiva and a leading figure in religious Zionism, clarified on Tuesday his opposition to plans to force hareidim to enlist into the military or carry out alternative national service.
"Any coercion in cutting down the number of Torah students or cutting their stipend will cause greater alienation of the hareidi public and widen the rifts in the nation, and contribute nothing to equality in bearing the burden of citizenship," Rabbi Melamed said.
"This must be opposed with great vigor," he stressed.
"Everyone knows that the army does not need all the people it enlists every year and there is a lot of hidden unemployment in the military. For the army's sake, the number of soldiers should be reduced and their quality and professionalism need to be increased.
"A wide scale civilian service or national service will also be an unnecessary burden on the state and will do more harm than good.
If hareidi men are exempted from military service, the rabbi predicted, a large proportion of them will learn professions and join the workforce. This will be a natural process of coming together, not a coerced one of tearing apart.
Rabbi Melamed outlined his plan for dealing with the enlistment issue, which includes the following points:
1. The military will take in only those who fit its needs. It will be smaller and of higher quality. Those who serve will receive tax benefits and other advantages.
2. All those who avoid service yet are not yeshiva students will bear a financial burden in the form of a tax. This includes members of minorities.
3. Many yeshiva students who are not built for long years of Torah study and are not military material either will learn professions and join the work force.
4. Those who remain in yeshivas and study diligently will receive greater compensation than they do today.
5. Torah students will be exempt from the tax (item 2), but will pay the tax once they start working.
6. The army will establish more units that allow hareidi soldiers to enlist without concern of spiritual harm.
7. The Education Ministry and military will work with youth to educate them that military service is an important value for those who are built for it.
8. All must be educated to understand that military service is a Torah commandment. It is a mitzvah to defend the nation of Israel and the Land of Israel."
Sensible guidance, since Frum Jews tend to speak in hyperbole to make their points:
ReplyDeleteArutz Sheva / Israel National News:
"Rabbis to Bennett: Forgive and Forget Hareidi Insults: Several prominent Religious Zionist rabbis urged Bayit Yehudi to ensure that hareidi parties are included in the government now being formed
By David Lev
3/11/2013
Several prominent rabbis identified with the Religious Zionist movement urged Bayit Yehudi to ensure that hareidi parties are included in the government now being formed. Rabbi Elyakim Levanon, one of the most important Religious Zionist rabbis in Samaria, and Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu, the chief rabbi of Tzefat and son of former Chief Rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu z”tl, recommended strongly in a letter to Bayit Yehudi leader Naftali Bennett that he negotiate with Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to include Shas and United Torah Jewry in the government.
The two rabbis are considered among the top rabbinical supporters of Bayit Yehudi, and in recent days have been working behind the scenes to convince Bennett not to enter the government without the inclusion of the hareidi parties. On Monday, the two went public with a letter to Bennett, which they released to several web sites.
The rabbis wrote that they were “worried” that “negotiations for a coalition are taking place in an atmosphere of complete dismissal of hareidi parties. With all the differences in ideologies and stances, we are, after all, Jews who believe in the observance and support of the Torah. We call on you in a clear voice: Include the hareidi parties in the negotiations,” and build a coalition with them, instead of with Yesh Atid, the rabbis wrote.
“We are aware of the harsh statements by members of the hareidi parties,” the rabbis wrote. “But we must ignore these insults, and not repay them their for their actions in kind. We must be cognizant of the honor of Torah, and the honor of the Land of Israel, which will follow. How can we educated our children to love their fellow Jews if their political leaders do not do so themselves?” "
Reality check, Lapid was never government material, he and his party are all political novices and would not be trusted to be town dog-catchers in any other normal country:
ReplyDeleteArutz Sheva / Israel National News:
"Report: PM Has 'Had It' With Lapid's 'Inflexbility': With time running out, Binyamin Netanyahu expressed his frustration with what sources called the “inflexibility” of Yesh Atid's Yair Lapid.
By David Lev
3/12/2013
With time running out for the presentation of a government, Binyamin Netanyahu on Tuesday expressed his frustration with what Likud/Yisrael Beiteinu sources called the “inflexibility” of Yesh Atid's Yair Lapid. According to the sources, the Likud has made major concessions to Lapid's demands, such as agreeing to a government of only 20 ministers. But when Netanyahu asked Lapid to compromise, the latter refused – and as a result, the sources said, Netanyahu may seek alternative partners, such as the hareidi parties.
According to Channel 10, the main bone of contention between Netanyahu and Lapid – and the reason a coalition agreement has not yet been signed – is Lapid's insistence that the Education Ministry be given to his party exclusively.
Lapid is said to have former educator Rabbi Shai Piron, number two on the Yesh Atid list, in mind for the job. However, Netanyahu wants Gideon Sa'ar, current Education Minister, to remain at the post. The reason, according to sources, is not necessarily internal Likud/Yisrael Beiteinu politics, but because Netanyahu wants to ensure that the hareidi education system gets a fair shake, even if hareidi parties do not join the government. Sa'ar was considered a good minister, who effected positive changes in the school system in cooperation with the teacher's unions.
Netanyahu, the report said, has offered to rotate the Education Ministry between Sa'ar and Yesh Atid, but Lapid has rejected this deal. The report added that Netanyahu is determined not to concede on this point – but because he must present a government by the weekend, the Prime Minister is looking at options. According to Channel 10, Netanyahu told Lapid he was giving him until Wednesday to work out all the outstanding issues and sign a coalition agreement. If he does not do so, Netanyahu will turn to Shas and United Torah Jewry for help in forming a government.
However, the report said, sources close to Netanyahu, chief among them Avigdor Lieberman, have advised the Prime Minister to concede to Lapid rather than turn to the hareidim, because the latter will “squeeze” Netanyahu for concessions, using the deadline to their advantage.
Channel 10 also said that the first cracks in the alliance between Bayit Yehudi and Yesh Atid are evident, as both parties are seeking to head the Knesset Finance Committee."
Reality check, Lapid was never government material,
ReplyDeletereality check - government seems to be forming, bibi got over his frustration.
given that lapid's draft plan starts off with a 5 year, automatic complete patur from army service for yeshiva guys (meaning anyone graduating from a yeshiva qetana or currently enrolled in a yeshiva gedola can do whatever he wants - learn, work, go to the beach, whatever), i don't see what the problem is. no need to be moser nefesh, no need to be yahareig (as if anyone would do that). anyway the government doesn't need to jail or kill anyone. simply threatening to deny a moshkanta will convince most avreichim to sign up.
The battle-lines dividing the Charedim (and the Labor Party) versus the new coalition-triumvirate of Netanyah-Lapid-Bennett have finally been drawn, as Lapid and Bennett have now totally twisted, more like broken both of Netanyahu's rams, maybe even his legs, but the Charedim will be in the opposition, and it will not be pleasant for anyone:
DeleteArutz Sheva / Israel National News:
"UTJ: New Government 'Hateful, Evil, Corrupt, Disloyal,' etc.: UTJ MKs slammed the new government, heaped invective on its members, and expressed wishes for its rapid demise
By David Lev
3/14/2013
MKs of the hareidi United Torah Jewry slammed the new government, heaped invective on its members, and expressed their wishes for its rapid demise at a meeting Wednesday night. In a meeting summing up the the party's efforts to join the government, and its ultimate failure to do so, MKs called the new government “disloyal,” “corrupt,” “hateful,” “evil,” and more.
Party chairman MK Meir Porush said that with his decision to form a government with Yesh Atid and Bayit Yehudi, to the exclusion of hareidi parties, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu had “betrayed” his historic alliance with the hareidim. “Netanyahu is incapable of keeping promises,” he said. “This is a government of puppets, and it is quickly running out of time. Netanyahu will be incapable of managing with his partners. He is too tired, and the puppets will be controlled by puppetmaster Lapid. Such a government will be unable to last for too long.”
MK Ya'akov Litzman, formerly Deputy Health Minister, said that “this is government based on corruption, hate, boycotts, divisiveness, and dissension. Yair Lapid and Naftali Bennett plan to inflict damage on the holiest parts of the Jewish nation. We will remain in the opposition, actively fighting with all our abilities to topple this evil government.
“This is a new era, in which Israelis will be under a sword of budget cuts that will damage the welfare of all Israelis, and especially the poor. UTJ will represent the majority of the Jewish people with strength and pride, protecting them from the damage Lapid and Bennett will do to religion, values, and the survival of poorer Israelis,” Litzman said.
MK Yisrael Eichler was more optimistic about the future. “This is a 'time of trouble for Jacob,” he said, using a term traditionally employed for major dangers to the Jewish people. “But I am sure we will be saved. This is an 'edict from Heaven,' and these things always turn out well. Even a situation like this, where we must remain in the opposition and fight against a secular government that will try to damage hareidi education, can be positive. This is a government where the High Court has taken control of the lawmakers of the Knesset, and at least we will not be a party to their edicts.
“We will fight them in the traditional way Jews have fought: With bribes, prayers, and war,” Eichler said, referring to the Biblical story of Jacob meeting his brother Esav. David Ben Gurion, the secularist first Prime Minister of Israel, “was stronger than they are, and hareidi Jewry was much weaker then. Even he understood that hareidi education could not be compromised. The current leaders will learn the same thing, the hard way,” he added."
"Ben Waxman...anyway the government doesn't need to jail or kill anyone."
DeleteRaP: Now isn't that nice of them!
"simply threatening to deny a moshkanta will convince most avreichim to sign up."
RaP: Dream on, it ain't gonna happen. Not one Charedi rov is allowing it. It looks like this will backfire and the avreichim will now all become more like the yungerleit of the Eida HaChareidis who refuse to take money from the Zionist government, rely on foreign tzedaka as much as possible, and live in dire poverty -- a disgrace to a Jewish state that is supposed to take care of all its citizens that sends free supplies and energy to its enemies in Gaza but not to frum citizens -- rather than face going into a secular controlled army where they will be yelled at by sergeants and gal soldiers wearing tight army hot pants.
Let's see how long this government lasts if all they will talk about morning, noon, and night is how to get Charedi boys and girls into the army by force, spiteful financial boycotts and blackmail.
Dream on, it ain't gonna happen.
Deletewe'll see. i remember the same statements made before the pinui from gaza. it happened and life went on.
Not one Charedi rov is allowing it.
that is actually an interesting question. IMO, from what i see, rabbanim only have a certain limited influence on their followers. i take gender-separated buses regularly and i see plenty of chareidi using smart phones, tablets, the works. reality has a way of getting its way.
It looks like this will backfire and the avreichim will now all become more like the yungerleit of the Eida HaChareidis who refuse to take money from the Zionist government, rely on foreign tzedaka as much as possible, and live in dire poverty
the above comes under "easier said than done". guys in the eida are also famous for not spending that many years in yeshiva before going out to work. given the realities of the american economy, economic realities that american chareidi live under, i don't see the american frum purse opening up and replacing the funds from the GOI.
one only needs to compare the size of the mir to the size of brisk to understand what happens when people have to rely on their own resources.
@Ben Waxman March 17, 2013 at 8:39 AM
DeleteYou are inherently incapable of understanding why Charedim will not be coerced into being conscripted by force because you look at Charedi society as weak (at best) while you seem to regard the secular Israeli system as "infallible" and that the Israeli army is some sort of "holy cow" when it itself does NOT want forced conscripts. Gen. Moshe Ya'alon (the capable former IDf chief and now the new Defense Minister) himself has many times declared that it is a mistake to forcibly draft Charedim and that it only backfires and serves no constructive purpose. Ya'alon is going to be busy doing his "hasbara" to former TV hipster Lapid to drop his confrontational claptrap.
"Ben Waxman said...we'll see. i remember the same statements made before the pinui from gaza. it happened and life went on."
DeleteRaP: So you think that secular Israel will mobilize its police and army and drag all the Charedim into the arm or maybe put them into camps for helping "deserters" ? Just how delusional are you?
"from what i see, rabbanim only have a certain limited influence on their followers. i take gender-separated buses regularly and i see plenty of chareidi using smart phones, tablets, the works. reality has a way of getting its way."
RaP: You are making a huge ERROR of categories. Yes, Charedim use all the conveniences of of modern life and technology. They have washing machines, they drive cars and use GPS, they rely on modern hospitals and medicine for cuers, they live in modern housing if they can afford it, and they use gadgets and widgets like anyone else (of course the rabbis warn of the XXX dangers as they must, just as they warn against reading all shmutz in magazines), yeshivas use electricity and have modern offices and stoves in the kitchens and have computers and some even send Emails, BUT that has NOTHING to do with being conscripted by force into the army, which they will all resist since not one rav is telling them to abide by any decrees.
"guys in the eida are also famous for not spending that many years in yeshiva before going out to work. given the realities of the american economy, economic realities that american chareidi live under, i don't see the american frum purse opening up and replacing the funds from the GOI."
RaP: Do not underestimate the economic power of Charedim since their numbers are now quite huge. They are vast and international and they also have political connections in the USA, UK, Europe, Canada and many other countries.
"one only needs to compare the size of the mir to the size of brisk to understand what happens when people have to rely on their own resources."
RaP: You obviously know little about this. Both Mir and Brisk were built and rely off American Charedi funding. Brisk is an elitist yeshiva that restricts the numbers deliberately. It has nothing to do with money. The Mir in Israel became a global institution under its American rosh yeshiva rav Noson Tzvi Finkel Z"L from Chicago. The former rosh yeshiva Rav Beinish Finkel Z"L (son of Rav Leizer Yudel Finkel Z"L, who was the son of the Alter/Sabba of Slabodka Z"L) had five daughters whom he married off to five American rabbis, he obviously knew what he was doing and it paid off big time.
you look at Charedi society as weak (at best) while you seem to regard the secular Israeli system as "infallible" and that the Israeli army is some sort of "holy cow" when it itself does NOT want forced conscripts
Deleteuntrue and i never hinted towards any of the above. you are engaging in personal attacks instead of addressing what i wrote.
(of course the rabbis warn of the XXX dangers as they must, just as they warn against reading all shmutz in magazines),
Deletenow you my friend are being disingenuous. they don't simply warn of the dangers involved in an iphone, they've forbidden them. yet plenty of frum guys (and girls) have them. this isn't the first time i've seen this type of thing in which the amcha sets the tone, not the rabbanim. its been this way for thousands of years. there are plenty examples in the gemara where chazal gave a psak and the amcha decided otherwise.
Do not underestimate the economic power of Charedim . . .
yes, it is so great that they constantly push for higher benefits. their political connections with dov hindkin (spelling?) aren't going to help here.
brish doesn't give a stipend. that is why they don't get more students, even elite ones, nothing more than that. the mir also has plenty of elite students.
1 of 2: "Ben Waxman said..."
Delete"you are engaging in personal attacks instead of addressing what i wrote."
RaP: Unfortunately much, if not everything you write and say about Charedim is very much from the perspective of an outsider who is very far away from that lifestyle looking on or observing Charedim as if they were "objects" without true depth, passion and Yiddishkeit. And to add insult to injury you write as if you are convinced that what you say about Charedim -- will be imposed -- whether they like it or not, as if you were to be given a collective "upsherin" at their turning three and you do not seem to regard the maturity-level of Charedim as more than three year olds, who need a a dose of army training as 18 year olds to wake them up and turn them into the kind of "real people" you could deal with. But you are allowed to dream on because mercifully your dreams are the nightmares of the Charedim and hence will not come to pass, unless you want to see mass demonstrations and riots by hundreds of thousands of Charedim who will then be chased and beaten and trampled by cops on horses and motorbikes even in jeeps and tanks (many of whom are Russians without a Jewish identity who love to beat up Zhids.)
"now you my friend are being disingenuous. they don't simply warn of the dangers involved in an iphone, they've forbidden them. yet plenty of frum guys (and girls) have them. this isn't the first time i've seen this type of thing in which the amcha sets the tone, not the rabbanim. its been this way for thousands of years. there are plenty examples in the gemara where chazal gave a psak and the amcha decided otherwise."
RaP: How absurd that you think that just because Charedim by themselves use cell phones and IPads and laptops it means they will just stroll happily into the recruitment offices. How bad is that logic man! Like saying just because Charedim eat unhealthy foods like kugel, kishka and chulent that leads to high cholesterol and weight problems they will all run to dietitians and cardiologists to listen what the doctors have to say. One has nothing to do with the other. By going to the army you are talking about DESTROYING the Charedi lifestyle, as an act of literal SHMAD, and that is something no Charedi rov or amcha will agree to. You don't seem to get the intensity of the opposition or the fervor of the type of anti-Zionism and fear of ostracism by their own society that Charedim harbor.
2 of 2: "Ben Waxman said..."
Delete"yes, it is so great that they constantly push for higher benefits. their political connections with dov hindkin (spelling?) aren't going to help here."
RaP: Being snide just shows how much you don't know. Vizhnitz, Belz, Gur, Chabad, the Litvish yeshivas and more all have vast numbers in America, Canda, Britian, Europe and they have received billions from those sources. Forget about Hikind, he is just a noisy guy in Boro Park. Think Senators, Congressmen, Governors of States, the Presidents and Cabinet members, Prime Ministers, Members of Parliament, millionaires and billionaires that no one even knows are working all the time to pump fortunes into the Israeli Charedi educational and social systems and thereby into Israel economy! And yes, taking whatever government SOCIAL SERVICES they can to the max, since all the money they receive is in turn pumped back into the general Israeli economy. Unlike Israeli tycoons and yordim who take money away from Israel and move into foreign banks.
"brish doesn't give a stipend. that is why they don't get more students, even elite ones, nothing more than that."
RaP: Utter bull! Brisk is the MOST elite Litvish yeshiva in the world, millionaires rush to enroll their sons there. It ensures elite shidduchim and elite stations in life. It is the Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge rolled into one of the Litvish yeshiva world.
"the mir also has plenty of elite students."
RaP: True, but that is not what it is noted for. It is the premier "community yeshiva" of the world based in Yerushalayim that has a place for everyone, as long as they are Charedi and meet yeshiva entrance guidelines, for years they took anyone without tuitions, only recently was that required after the recent death of Rav Noson Tzvi Finkel Z"L who died leaving the yeshiva without its main fundraiser, and most of its student body come from America as do most students at Brisk. Israelis prefer to go to Chevron and Ponevez.
Charedim in Israel denounce the new government. Note that Rav Shteinman is actually a moderate, but now facing threats from Yesh Atid-Bayit Yehudi types, there is no no room for compromises:
ReplyDeleteArutz Sheva / Israel National News:
"Rabbi Steinman: 'Government of Evildoers Won't Break Us': Rabbi Aharon Leib Steinman, the leader of the Lithuanian sector of hareidi Jewry, called the new government “a government of evildoers”
David Lev
3/14/2013
Rabbi Aharon Leib Steinman, the leader of the Lithuanian (non-Hasidic) sector of hareidi Jewry and acknowledged leader of the Lithuanian yeshiva movement, sharply attacked the new government, calling it “a government of evildoers” (memshelet zadon), and terming one of its main anchors, Yair Lapid, “an evildoer who was raised by an evil father.”
Rabbi Steinman was updated Wednesday night on the coalition negotiations by the three members of the Degel Hatorah party, MKs Moshe Gafni, Uri Maklev, and Ya'akov Asher. Degel Hatorah, along with the Hassidic-oriented Agudat Yisrael, make up United Torah Jewry.
Rabbi Steinman slammed the prospective government over its intention to require most Hareidi yeshiva students to serve in the IDF or National Service. “At this particular time, as Torah learning and the yeshiva world grows and prospers, especially now as so many are returning to Judaism, the satan (evil inclination) interferes and tries to do evil,” Rabbi Steinman said. “But we must not be discouraged. The Jewish people have survived many evildoers, and this group will not succeed in breaking our spirit. We know that those who persecute the Jewish people are destined for leadership” in the period of exile, “and that is why this is happening,” he said.
“They (the secular forces) want to inspect and see who is learning Torah full time and who is not,” Rabbi Steinman continued. “How is it possible to remain hareidi with the difficult spiritual level of the army?” According to reports, the coalition agreement includes a commitment by the government to pass a law that would allow no more than 1,800 exemptions for top yeshiva students. All the rest would be drafted.
“It is understandable how Yair Lapid, an evil man who is the son of an evil father, could do this,” Rabbi Steinman added. “But why does Naftali Bennett, who himself is religious, interfere with the world of Torah? They must realize that we are united, and thus we will succeed in ensuring the integrity of the Torah world,” he said. "
Charedim in Israel denounce the new government. Note that Rav Shteinman is actually a moderate, but now facing threats from Yesh Atid-Bayit Yehudi types, there is no no room for compromises:
Deletea moderate in the chareidi world, but once you leave bnei brak, you need a magnifying glass to find the differences between him and rav aurbach. i heard time after time from various spokespersons of the velt that the differences between the two are various nuances, but not on substance.
so while these differences maybe important for the ideologues, no one else cares.
“How is it possible to remain hareidi with the difficult spiritual level of the army?”
Deletetwo points:
1) a recent survey of dati girls who go to the army found that about 1/3 actually strengthened their observance (yes a significant number also were weakened).
2) with the proper preparation they'll remain chareidi, they may not remain yeshivish. there is a difference.
@Ben Waxman March 17, 2013 at 8:21 AM
DeleteDo you actually think that realistically speaking the Charedi world is going to sit back and allow the forced conscription of their daughters into TZAHAL, with Yair Lapid making the demands as if he were a new secular (false) "infallible messiah" and the likes of Bennett and you saying: "amen, amen adoneinu Lapid"?? When as long back as the founding of the state, the Chazon Ish himself ruled and made it publicly known that it is a matter of "yehareg ve'al ya'avor" and no rov in the Charedi world has ever disputed that??
do i think that they are going to sit back? no. they'll fight. will they win?
Deletethe chazon ish agreed to a limit of 400 learners. now there will be 1800. so if you are going by the CI precedent, no chareidi rov should have a problem. in addition there is a 4 year period in which no yeshiva guy needs to join. he can leave yeshiva freely without penalty and go to work. just for that clause you, with everything you have written, should be supporting this law.
"Ben Waxman said...do i think that they are going to sit back? no. they'll fight. will they win?"
DeleteRaP: Why do you so happily want to incite Jews to fight each other?! Like the Brisker Rov once said, do you want to prove or disprove that "Tziyoinim are chashud on retzicha" R"L.
"the chazon ish agreed to a limit of 400 learners."
RaP: Nowhere in any history or record does it state this. Can you name a reliable source for that please?
"now there will be 1800. so if you are going by the CI precedent, no chareidi rov should have a problem."
RaP: By the now the precedent of the Chazon Ish is taken to be that absolutely no yeshiva man, whether single or married should allow himself to be forcibly recruited by the Israeli army. Charedi rabbanim now see it as a period of GEZEIRAS HASHMAD and hence all Charedim must resist even reasonable "offers"! Additionally, the Chazon Ish stated, and it's accepted in the Charedi world, that it is forbidden for a Charedi young woman to go into the army even to do National Service ("sherut le'umi") because it automatically puts her in an environment that will compromise here levels of tznius observance. In this regard, in recent years, many secular Israeli officers have been court-martialed and shown to be lechers for sexually abusing female soldiers under their command. It is VERY common and you know it.
"in addition there is a 4 year period in which no yeshiva guy needs to join. he can leave yeshiva freely without penalty and go to work. just for that clause you, with everything you have written, should be supporting this law."
RaP: Again you fail to appreciate even the rudiments of the Charedi mentality that promotes the ethos of limmud haTorah above and beyond everything else. Yeshivas and bais yaakovs are not built and do not function as launching pads for parnassa. On the contrary, yeshivas DISCOURAGE their talmidim from going to work because they stress the importance of limmud haTorah and TORAH LISHMA, they want their talmidim to aspire to the ideals of TORASO UMNASO ("Torah is his 'profession'") and they actively discourage talmidim from rushing to learn skills and find jobs. Likeeise Charedi girls and women are educated to support Torah and husbands who will learn and to build large Torah families. That is how they view it. In this way they are serving HKB"H and nothing will change that. If over time, a yungerman (often in his late 30s or 40s, sometimes in his 20s) is forced to find a livelihood they will turn to ding something that can earn them a few shekels to subsist. You cannot break this mentality. As the sensible people realize confrontation will NOT work, ONLY EVOLUTION and the pressures of natural economic forces. But decrees from a secular government will only prove to be counter-productive and make them dig their heals in even more.
While Netanyahu finally managed to cobble together a coalition with the conditions imposed on him by Lapid and Bennett who twisted him by his arms (actually they broke them) until he yelled uncle, the general media has taken note of Netanyahu's weakened political condition that bodes ill for his future abilities as leader, the worst shape he has been in for a very long time, now that he does not have his traditional Charedi allies to help him:
ReplyDeleteYnet.com:
"Netanyahu's lost dignity: Op-ed: How is it that Israel's most stable prime minister has become least popular, least valued by Israeli public?
Emanuel Rosen
03.17.13, 20:47 / Israel Opinion
I'm trying to imagine Benjamin Netanyahu watching Channel 2's interview with President Obama. In his best fantasy, he knows he'll never get anything similar. The honor, the politeness, the respectability, the tough questions which are asked carefully and those not asked at all.
Netanyahu is probably closing his eyes and trying to imagine the hateful and hating Israeli media giving him just a pinch of what it showers with such abundance on a president, who always seems to him alienated toward the Israeli interest.
Radio broadcaster Razi Barkai told me in an interview last week that the Israeli press was going too far in its hostility toward the prime minister. Indeed, Netanyahu rightfully earned every ounce of criticism, distrust, contempt and cynicism which most of Israel's journalists feel toward him – but if this circle of hatred has gone out of control, it's time for self-examination not only on his part, but on the media's part as well...
The Americans, who are the world's biggest experts on this kitsch, are the ones setting the tone. The Israelis gladly join the choir. So why don't the Israelis show a bit of this respect, even if slightly fake, toward their ruler? Look, Netanyahu can say to himself, in the United States, in a prestigious magazine like TIME, I am Bibi King, and here, in my own kingdom, even Yair Lapid doesn’t give me the time of day.
...and yet, beyond the obvious, there is something troubling in the Israeli prime minister's weakness in the face of his party members, his current and future ministers, his wife, the media and the public in general. How is it that the most stable prime minister in the history of local politics has also become the least popular and least valued by so many diverse parts of the Israeli public?
This question has quite a few answers. I believe that the most correct and full answer is the leadership. The huge gap between the leadership appearance and the conduct of being dragged by others, between the pathos in the flowery language and the little hiding behind it – is what undermines out leader's leadership more than anything and denies him the respect every prime minister deserves.
Much to Netanyahu's misfortune, there are now new leaders in the political arena, who have identified this weakness in him. After the coalition agreement was signed, Lapid said that he wants to lead. If Lapid manages to create leadership from the electric chair of every government, from the least desired and least popular position, he will easily surpass Netanyahu in the next elections..."
Some people are never happy. Now that Lapid has "caved" albeit infinitesimally to political realities and has agreed to postpone the immediate call-up of Charedim, he is being watched and hounded by the fanatical anti-Charedi "purists" to his extreme left. This is obviously a new experience for him and he will have to get used to more of this in his new role a Finance Minister of Israel. What the fanatics on the left forget is that there is a proportionately equal amount of fanatics on the religious far right who fight them. It is precisely that point that the real silent hero of this drama the taciturn Gen. Moshe Ya'alon, the former IDF chief and new Minister of Defense of Israel, who has spoken out against the forcible drafting of Charedim, a subject he should know about as an expert in matters of the national security of Israel, but the ultra-secular fanatics on the left do not care, see:
ReplyDeleteArutz Sheva / Israel National News:
"Hareidi Enlistment Proposal Worries Activists:
Pro-enlistment activists worry that Yesh Atid’s agreement on hareidi-religious army recruitment will have no real effect.
3/17/2013
Activists who favor universal military enlistment for Israeli men are concerned by the Yesh Atid party’s agreement with Likud Beytenu. The Forum for Equal Share in the Burden warned Sunday that the proposal may have no real effect.
“The optimistic assumption that it will be possible to start obligating hareidi men to serve in 2017 has no basis in political reality,” the group said. “In another four years there will be a new government, and the first thing the hareidi parties will demand is the cancellation of the [enlistment] law.”
The Forum praised Yesh Atid head Yair Lapid for “putting the subject of equal share in the burden of service as a top priority.” However, “we are very concerned by the proposal that was published.”
“We must remind Lapid that last summer more than 30,000 Israelis took to the streets to protest Ya'alon’s proposal,” members of the group added. “Now this proposal is coming in the back door.”
Yaalon’s proposal lacked teeth, they said. “It has no criminal sanctions for draft dodgers, and no reduced budgets for yeshivas – everything is voluntary.” Lapid’s lacks a realistic timetable, “Lapid’s plan for a period of more than four years is not realistic in Israel’s political reality,” they argued.
The Forum also called to discuss not only hareidi men, but hareidi women. “Why should the topic of hareidi women remain a subject that is not talked about? Why not give women the chance to at least do civilian service? Why force them into a life without giving to the community – why decide for them?”
Pro-enlistment activists are planning to meet with top officials in the new government in the upcoming days to discuss enlistment. Among those they hope to meet with are Yair Lapid, who is to be Finance Minister, Tzipi Livni, the Justice Minister-to-be, and future Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee head Avigdor Lieberman."
Notice that Defense Minister Gen. Moshe Ya'alon will not be meeting with them, or they will not ask to meet him, because they know he will tell to go fly a kite and not work so hard and trying to create conditions to incite a civil war in Israel.
it is precisely that point that the real silent hero of this drama the taciturn Gen. Moshe Ya'alon,
ReplyDeleteright, and when he made his proposal last year, the rabbanim said "לא יהיה". now he is a hero.
"Ben WaxmanMarch 18, 2013 at 8:11 AM
ReplyDeleteit is precisely that point that the real silent hero of this drama the taciturn Gen. Moshe Ya'alon,
right, and when he made his proposal last year, the rabbanim said "לא יהיה". now he is a hero."
The point being that Ya'alon is not making radical suggestions like Lapid. The use of the word "hero" is MINE, I take responsibility for it because it bespeaks MODERATION and chochma.While you remain focused on what Charedi rabbonim need to do, or should do, why is that? Why do you feel you know what the Charedi rabbonim must do, should have done, would do, when the fact remains they are in full opposition, and will not listen to you or to me for that matter. We are trying to objectively as possible understand the subject here not tell Charedi or any other rabbis what they should or should not do!! A year ago Rav Shteinman was taking heat from his right wing for sticking by his suggestions that some yeshiva people should move and not waste their time (it's not minor like you suggest, in some places they scream at him and hurl rotten tomatoes), now he has been forced into the fortress and holds it is "yehareg ve'al ya'avor" and a "gezeiras hashmad" and that it's FORBIDDEN to compromise -- whose fault is that? Lapid confrontionalism will not work. The Charedi Rabbonim are not shopping around for favors from ANY politicians or generals that they do not have a high regard for. Charedim come from a very narrow worldview. Stop obsessing about them, they cannot be changed.
there is plenty i could comment on your last post, but i am going to restrict myself to one point:
ReplyDeleteCharedim come from a very narrow worldview. Stop obsessing about them, they cannot be changed.
i have never heard a statement as racist as this one.
well, maybe i'll allow myself a second comment:
it's FORBIDDEN to compromise -- whose fault is that
rav stenniman's. he is supposed to be the gadol hador, the leader, the manhig. if he can't handle it, well, WADR, maybe he shouldn't be. back in NY, people used to have demonstrations in front of rav moshe's house, they would burn him in effigy, but RMF never budged. that is a gadol.
@Ben Waxman March 18, 2013 at 11:34 AM "i have never heard a statement as racist as this one."
DeleteRacist, Shmaisist!
You are the one that hurls invectives at Charedim, their lifestyle, their choices to be who they are, and against their rabbonim that you depict as one-dimensonal dolts (at best) and utter idiots or worse at worst, and when I state that they have a "narrow worldview" that is somehow "racist"?? Just how does that work??
Would you be happier if I called Charedim "enlightened free thinkers"?? Or "open-minded liberals" or such-like terms that makes them into dream-like wispy malleable figures of you wishful thinking (ready to be mushy chocolate soldiers) better suited to a Harry Potter book or movie than to real life hard-core personalities actually living in grungy Bnai Brak, hard-nosed Yerushalayim, and labyrinthine Brooklyn? Which reminds me of that old joke from Rav Avigdor Miller Z"L: "Show me a man with an open mind, and I'll show you a man with a hole in his head"! Is that also "racist" against you ??
You are the one that hurls invectives at Charedim, their lifestyle, their choices to be who they are,
Deletei have nothing against their lifestyle, you are simply making that up. if someone wants to have gender separated weddings, no internet, glatt kosher everything, chumrot on modesty, that is his business and his alone. i do believe that the same respect for one's lifestyle has to be accorded to everyone.
and like i said, if guys in yeshiva want to take an hour for mincha, that is also fine. i think that they should be learning, but i am not going to argue that point. however since you yourself admit that this type of davening is not what chareidim do once they leave yeshiva, i don't see a problem with them davening "like everyone else" in the army.
d against their rabbonim that you depict as one-dimensonal dolts (at best) and utter idiots or worse at worst,
nope, never said anything like that. what i did say is that the rabbanim may have (or did) made a huge mistake in not cooperating with plessner or accepting the yaalon recommendations when they first came out. since i am not a believer in "daas torah" (the way the phrase is used today and the historical record shows that rabbanim made mistakes, huge ones, in the past), i don't think less of rabbanim if they make a mistake.
when I state that they have a "narrow worldview" that is somehow "racist"??
now, now - that isn't what i quoted from you, dear sir. you said that they can't change. THAT is racist (and untrue).
@Ben Waxman March 19, 2013 at 8:14 AM: "i don't see a problem with them davening "like everyone else" in the army." & "i don't think less of rabbanim if they make a mistake." & "you said that they can't change. THAT is racist (and untrue)."
DeleteYou mamash have a "juk barosh" that Charedim are somehow going to be forced into the army with threats or jailings. The bottom line is that: (1) they are not going into the army UNDER THE PRESENT REGIME of threats from a secular Zionist government that they have been taught to despise (so how can they be loyal to its army?? why do you even want such people in the army?????) even if the army will let them daven for as long as they want, drink gallons of chalav yisrael at any base and eat glatt in any tank. (2) The Charedi rabbanim are not working under the premise that they have made a "mistake" since 1948 of promoting full-time Torah learning and discouraging army service (it's a known fact that everyone but you in your akshonus or is it "rishus" I am just not sure which by now, seems to be aware of. (3) Call it what you want, but the whole make-up of Charedim, their core inner techunot and inner beings seems to elude you. GET THIS THRU YOUR HEAD: They are cut from a different cloth mentally, physically and even spiritually, that allows them to have huge families, learn Torah for so long in life, survive on nothing if need be, and stay so involved with their roshei yeshiva, Chasidic rebbes and poskim and rabbonim, in a nutshell they have somehow or other, admittedly inexplicably DIFFERENT NESHOMAS ('souls") because THEY COME FROM A DIFFERENT MEKOR AND SHORESH HANESHOMAS that allows them to grow and be so strong UNNATURALLY, not al pi teva. Perhaps there is a lesson to this in Yetziat Mitzrayim, Paroh said "pen yirbu" and their response was "ken yirbu'! The more Paroh tried to persecute them and suppress them, the more they grew, multiplied and came into their own, until Hashem inflicted the makot on the persecutors and the Bnai Yisrael went out to freedom to become a nation NOT in "Israel" but in MIDBAR SINAI!!
As for Plesner, aren't you glad he's gone?! His father is a Scandinavian gentile and he was going to give dei'os about what the Torah world should do, what a joke that was. Ya'alon was horrified by the Plesner Report and rightly opposed it 100%. Ya'alon, is a very smart man it seems, and he has a more pragmatic approach and he refuses to confront Charedim in the way you talk, Baruch Hashem at least he is now the Minister of Defense because Barak also wanted to throw all the Charedim into the army or jail them, but look where he is now, in retirement, same place Lapid and Yesh Atid are headed, with maybe even Netanyahu joining them sooner than they realize. 68 is a very slim "majority" in the Knesset when everyone in the coalition is already at everyone else's throats. Livni is already at war with Bennett. Netanyahu looks like he almost had a nervous breakdown. Lapid is smirking like a Cheshire cat -- and he is the FINANCE MINISTER??????? Bennett thinks he is the real PM. Lieberman might go to jail himself for fraud. While the Charedim have now teamed up with Labor quite happily to attack the "capitalists" in the government.
Chag Kasher VeSameach!!!
@RAP" old joke from Rav Avigdor Miller Z"L: "Show me a man with an open mind, and I'll show you a man with a hole in his head"
DeleteR' Norman Lamm said something, which now I think was in response to that statement/joke.
He said you cannot open your mind to truth without the risk of letting in falsehood. Similarly, you cannot close your mind to falsehood without the risk of closing it to truth.
that they have been taught to despise
Deletewhich is the real issue in a nutshell.
THEY COME FROM A DIFFERENT MEKOR AND SHORESH HANESHOMASM.
silly statement
@Ben Waxman March 19, 2013 at 1:19 PM
Delete"THEY COME FROM A DIFFERENT MEKOR AND SHORESH HANESHOMASM.
silly statement"
It may seem "silly" to you but it's profounder and truer than you realize. Pity that you can't grasp such notions. VeHameivin yavin. Let's leave it at that. Kol tuv!
no its silly. you are taking a statement by the baal hatanya about tzadikim and applying to every joe who happens to be a member of the eida.
Deleteanyway i showed your post to a relative. grew up in brooklyn, learned in lakewood for years and now lives in a chareidi town. very frum person. he said that you represent an extreme of an extreme in the chareidi world and i shouldn't in anyway assume that you represent anyone but yourself. he has huge problems with the state, he doesn't despise the state in any way.
the post http://daattorah.blogspot.co.il/2013/03/obama-new-chareidim-and-world-without.html also gives a different view from yours.
Stop obsessing about them,
ReplyDeleteyou're the one who wrote this post, not me.
@Ben WaxmanMarch 18, 2013 at 11:34: "you're the one who wrote this post, not me."
DeleteFeel free to write up a nice guest post that would intelligently explain and describe your point of view.
Then submit it to the owner of this blog as I did and I am sure he will consider posting it.
That would be an improvement over sitting on the sidelines, taking repetitive random pot-shots at me.
It is not constructive to make your usual predictable snide comments.
Stop the gleeful taking of snippets out of context to promote a rabidly mindless and what seems like an uncouth pro-join the army agenda as if you were the official army recruiter in chief on this blog.
By the way, you do a terrible job of convincing Charedim, since I doubt that you have persuaded even half a Charedi moron to join up based on on your weak comments from the peanut gallery.
It seems that as long as you can attack the Charedi world it somehow gives you an extra-special near-sadistic satisfaction for some or other odd reason whereby you display for the world to see that you harbor a deep-seated bitterness towards anything Charedi.
Thus, that would not be an "obsession" but rather a positive contribution based on your obvious scholastic abilities and intellectual talents and a reflection of your deep interest in a very serious subject of concern to the Jewish people, especially those living in Israel.
Chag Sameach!!
Does Lapid really want to see every last Charedi become a member of TZAHAL etc etc etc? Seems that Obama has a LOT more sechel than Lapid, as reported here:
ReplyDeleteThe Washington Post
Post Politics
"Obama in Israel gives Yair Lapid some advice
Posted by Scott Wilson on March 20, 2013
JERUSALEM — Among the Israeli politicians who lined up by the dozens to shake President Obama’s hand Wednesday on his arrival was Yair Lapid, the rising secular star of Israel’s politics.
Lapid was a popular former television journalist who last year formed Yesh Atid, a political party that sought to address the hopes and concerns of secular, moderate Israelis – the hundreds of thousands concerned by the quality of Israeli schools, the job market, the state-sanctioned privileges that benefit some religious Israelis, and other quotidian issues not directly related to Israel’s conflict with the Palestinians.
And at a time when Israel’s hawkish religious parties seemed on the rise, Lapid’s movement scored big in Israel’s January general election, winning the second-most seats in Israel’s 120-member parliament, with 19. He is now the finance minister.
Obama had a chance to shake his hand Wednesday on the tarmac of Ben-Gurion International Airport, and while Lapid has appeared to enjoy his new-found political fame, the U.S. president had a warning for him.
“My wife always says,” Obama began with a smile, “be careful what you wish for, you might get it.” "
Good Yom Tov !
That is actually a very good but subtle point.
DeleteIn the period of the OSlo delusions, when there was a secular obsession with giving land to the Palestinians for peace, the obstacle was not the haredim but the RZ settlers. The secular press was then attacking the settlers, (who serve in the army and have strong positions therein, being the most motivated soldiers). Thus even serving in the army and doing it well is not going to satisfy the ultra-left anti religious.