I will repeat a point I have made countless times before. A child molester or rapist is a danger to the welfare of the community. He is reported to the secular authorities as preventative act of protection. The fact that the secular court will try him based on rules and procedures that are different than Torah or that they will punish differently then the Torah - is not a reason for not using them for protection. This fact is repeated by many gedolim - some of which are listed below. Many additional sources are found in my books on abuse - especially volume II. Furthermore not only circumstantial evidence is permitted but conviction based on a standard of less then absolutely certainty is also permitted - sofek rodef is treated as a rodef. [additional sources are in the commentary section]
In addition this case involved a mandated reporter who is required by secular law to report the alleged abuse. BM 83 provides a basis for requiring a Jew to comply with mandated reporting law. These issues have been discussed many times in many posts on this blog - as well as my 3 books on child abuse.
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Steipler Rav (Within the Domain of Gedolei Torah Volume 2 page 557-560): … When Rav Lorenz told the story to the Steipler Rav, the Steipler screamed, “A Jew who sins and repeats that sin, it is better that he be punished in this world and not – G‑d forbid – in the World to Come.” He explained, “The punishment in this world is minor compared to what happens in the World to Come. Furthermore if you succeed in stopping the jail sentence he will continue to repeatedly commit this crime. It is better that he receive his punishment and perhaps learn self‑restraint…In addition if I give you permission and you testify for his benefit it is obvious that every newspaper and all the public media will publicize the matter and it will also be a chilul HaShem when he sins again…”
Rav Moshe Halberstam (Yeschurun 15 page 646): Let’s return to the original question concerning a wicked molester whose evil inclination forces him to sin and be wicked and it is possible to turn him over to the government in order that he be incarcerated in prison for a number of years until he calms down and returns to G‑d wholeheartedly. According to the sources we discussed before it is clear that there is no sin or transgression in handing him over to the authorities. In fact the opposite is true – it is a mitzva because by doing so he is caused to stop from doing the disgusting deeds. In addition we know that the government will not execute him. Therefore the essence of his punishment is that he will be forced to dwell for a number of years in prison. This will be beneficial to him in that they will assign him a psychologist or psychiatrist who will supervise him and his activities with a watchful eye. Perhaps he will be able to find a resolution of his torment by means of this treatment. So in such a case it is obvious that it is a good thing to save him and to save his family from his incestual attacks on them.
Rav Yehuda Silman (Yeschurun 15 page 662): … The commentaries explain that the obvious reason for not needing witnesses but they could rely even on circumstantial evidence is because this was not a court procedure to punish wrongdoers. Rather it was either done to obey the law of the kingdom or it was to stop someone from sinning. The Rashba is cited in the Beis Yosef that witnesses are not needed in such a case…”. That is because we are concerned only with the knowledge of truth in order to stop the harm and to make protective measures against iniquity. Furthermore according to what I said that even a doubtful rodef is permitted to be killed it is obvious that it is permitted for us to take protective action even if we have unresolved doubts.
Rav Yehuda Silman (Yeschurun 22): …In the original article I was inclined to the view that in the case of sexual abuse since the perpetrator is not executed but is imprisoned to protect society then perhaps all would agree that it is permitted to report him to the authorities. Furthermore in the original article it was concluded that that it is obvious that there is no need to have witnesses that meet the standards required by the Torah but even less than that is sufficient and I cited a number of rishonim. The reason is reporting the teacher to the secular authorities is not punishment requiring a beis din but is an action mandated by secular law (in the Diaspora) or in order to separate the abuser from committing sin. In addition according to the reason that even in the case of a possible rodef it is permitted to inform the authorities – it is obvious that is permitted without proper witnesses since all that is required is that there be the possibility that he is an abuser….some say just the opposite and assert that it is not necessary to convene a beis din with both sides present and that in fact a beis din or even a rav is not needed at all. Rather what is needed is to involve the government authorities as soon as possible since only they have the legal right and actual ability to deal with these matters…. On the one hand concerning the legal requirement - it is clear that there is no need to convene a beis din in the presence of both sides since the basis of the permission to report the perpetrator to the secular authorities is either because he is a possible rodef (pursuer) or to separate him from sinning or because of the government mandates reporting
Rav Yehuda Silman (Yeschurun 22): 4) The view expressed in Bava Metzia (83b) concerning R’ Eliezar bar Rav Shimon who was involved in capturing thieves because the king had commanded him to do so... In the original article I was inclined to the view that in the case of sexual abuse since the perpetrator is not executed but is imprisoned to protect society then perhaps all would agree that it is permitted to report him to the authorities... In addition according to the reason that even in the case of a possible rodef it is permitted to inform the authorities – it is obvious that is permitted without proper witnesses since all that is required is that there be the possibility that he is an abuser...it is clear that there is no need to convene a beis din in the presence of both sides since the basis of the permission to report the perpetrator to the secular authorities is either because he is a possible rodef (pursuer) or to separate him from sinning or because of the government mandates reporting. In fact these cases do not require a beis din and we need to merely consider the possible loss versus the possible gain. If the accusations are in fact true then we are dealing with a case of saving a person from being harmed. While if the accusations are in fact not true then in general, the government will free him. On the other hand it is certain that it is impossible that everyone can take responsibility for deciding whether to inform the secular authorities…
If you really want to prevent a chilul Hashem, they should have a real vaad hatznius that would have sent Webberman swiming with a pair of cement shoes. Nobody would've heard about it.
ReplyDeletePlease, quote the se'if in shulchan oruch that he allegedly violated and the comparable years in jail for such a crime. More importantly, this shiksa did not ask a shailo, not to the steipler ztl nor any rabbi. According to 'inside info' she married an irrelgious youth after consorting with him as a niddah; and continues to flirt Hilchos Tahara. Dont bother supporting Mesira with quotes from Rabbis she couldn't care less about. The question is to you, as a Rabbi, who writes Indexes on Halacha seforim, not Yeshurun publications. Which se'if in shulchan oruch is a basis for years in jail that he was allegedly oiver?
ReplyDeleteAre you really serious that the authority of the Steipler, Rav Moshe Halberstam and Rav Yehuda Silman means nothing to you?
DeleteAs I have explained countless times there is a distinction between self-protect or protecting other and a trial in beis din to determine guilt. I have written three books on the subject which you can readily buy if you want a full discussion of the issue.
Shulchan Aruch (C.M. 388:10): It is permitted to kill a moser (informant) even in modern times. It is permitted to kill him before he has informed. Even if he threatens to hand either the Jew or his property to non Jewish authorities – even if it is a small amount of money – he can legitimately be killed. If when he is warned and told not to be an informant, he arrogantly replies that he will be an informant – it is a mitzva to kill him. Whoever is first in killing him is meritorious. Rema: However if there is no time to warn him, there is no requirement that he be informed. There are those who say that a moser can not be killed unless it is impossible to guard against his action with a less drastic approach. However if in fact the moser can be stopped without killing him – e.g., by cutting out his tongue or blinding him – it is prohibited to kill him. That is because the moser is no worse than any other rodef.
Sema(C.M. 388:30): For the sake of the harassment of the individual it is prohibited to report it to the secular authorities. This that the abuser is not reported to the secular authorities is only when he is verbally abusive but if he causes financial loss and surely if he beats him or causes bodily suffering it is permitted to report him to the secular authorities as is stated in the Rema and the Darchei Moshe
Bach(C.M. 388): …Concerning an informer (moser) in order to have witnesses testifying against him that he in fact is an informer then we can rely even on reasonable circumstantial evidence since there isn’t time to get kosher witnesses. Furthermore the informer is careful to only inform in secret and therefore in most cases it is impossible to know that he is informing accept through circumstantial evidence. Consequently if we don’t rely on circumstantial evidence there is no way to establish that anyone is an informant and thus it will make life unbearable. That is why we rely on clear circumstantial evidence to judge cases of informants and to take money from him when we establish with witnesses what losses he has caused by informing. Not only do we convict him of being an informant but we even have him executed without clear testimony but we rely on circumstantial evidence (raglayim l’davar) or rumors that don’t stop if there is a need of the times to judge him in this manner. So surely when it comes to financial issues we can rely on circumstantial evidence.
Rav Sternbuch (1:850): Question: A Jewish driver who normal speeds or doesn’t have a license – is it permitted to report him to the police? Answer: It states explicitly in Shulchan Aruch (Y.D. 388:12) that if someone is engaged in counterfeiting and is thus a danger to the community – he should be warned to stop. If he doesn’t listen to the warning it is possible to report him to the police. The Gra there says that the counterfeiter has the status of a rodef (pursuer) even though he does not intend to harm others and even though the harm is an indirect result of his actions and even though the danger is only a possibility not a certainty. There is nothing more dangerous than a reckless driver who is speeding or one who has no knowledge of proper driving skills - as indicated by the fact he has no license. Such people are likely to kill other, chas v’shalom and therefore they have the halachic status of rodef (pursuer). That is why in fact the secular law that requires a skilled driver with a license is in fact a just and obvious law for the welfare of society and we are fully obligated to observe these laws. Anyone who treats these laws with contempt and disobeys them, we are concerned that such a person can come to kill and therefore he deserves serious punishment – even imprisonment
DeleteMinchas Yitzchok (8:148): Is it permitted to report to the police reckless drivers who are a danger to other motorists and pedestrians? Concerning the question regarding motorists who drive their vehicles in a manner which endangers all those who are on the road with them by means of the means different scenarios that are described in his letter. Is it permitted to report them to the police? This will typically result in a monetary punishment or the cancellation of their driver’s license for a fixed period or incarceration in jail and it serves as a deterrent to actions which endanger others. Answer: Even though halacha prohibits causing a Jew to be given bodily or financially to the secular justice system, nevertheless a Jew who endangers other people is not included in this prohibition. This is explicitly stated by the Rambam (Hilchos Chovel u’Mazik 8:11) and Shulchan Aruch (C.M. 388:12): “All those who disturb the community and cause it distress it is permitted to give them over to the secular government to be punished whether by beating, imprisonment or fines…” It is obvious that all those who drive carelessly and in a wild manner, endanger the lives of all those are near them. We in fact have been commanded to avoid danger and to prevent it from happening. Perhaps by taking actions against these drivers it will prevent danger and reduce the number of accidents. … Therefore those who are involved in this mitzva of life saving should first go to beis din and to present their claims before them…
Sorry, you have not provided the se'if he allegedly violated. All the allegations are not vioaltions of shulchan oruch. Please correct me, by providing the 'act' alleged, and the corresponding se'if. Stop rambling about heter mesirah for a shiksah. thank you.
DeleteP.S. even the LA courts, just released a Chasidisher yid after refusing to moiser another yid.
Tza-dik
Sorry tzadik you can't see what is in front of you and obviously don't understand it. 388 dealing with moser, rodef reckless drivers etc - in short someone who is a threat to the community - is dealt with by non-judicial procedure.
DeleteYour question is basically "what sif does a person violate when the threatens to hurt another person" These threats of danger or harm are governed by sif 388. See Chasam Sofer on Gittin 7a. To protect against anyone threatening harm or harrassment one can turn to the secular authorities.
Your inability to understand the difference between a judicial procedure and non-judicial procedure is preventing you from understanding the matter.
Your casual dismisal and contempt for the words of the gedolim on this matter are astounding and disgusting.
If you can't come up with anything more than a constant repetition of ignorant rants I will not be publishing any more of your comments.
Apart from the abuse itself (which is extremely serious), didn't he violate yichud repeatedly? And not casually -- by triple locking a door to a room in which only he and the young lady were in, and leaving it locked for THREE HOURS! Is that even disputed?
DeleteA question for NY lawyers and a question for rabbis. If the questions aren't completely crazy, please feel free to elaborate upon the details I've specified. For both, let's consider the first occasion on which such a perpetrator triple-locks a Satmar teenage girl into the room. And let's consider an alternate-history scenario in which the girl resorts to deadly physical force.
DeleteNY legal question: Might the girl successfully defend herself before a court thus: "In my culture, triple-locking means clear intent to rape. Further, "ייהרג ואל יעבור" [http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/1105.htm#2] is a non-optional foundational precept of my religion. The manifest differential in size/weight/strength did not leave me the option for anything other than a single decisive strike -- I could not risk wrestling with the perpetrator. Therfore my killing of the perpetrator was entirely legally justified." [NY Pen. Law § 35.15: http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/PEN/ONE/C/35/35.15]
Rabbinic question: Per "ייהרג ואל יעבור", do we need any additional circumstances to commend, advocate, etc., the girl's resort to deadly physical force? What would a "ייהרג ואל יעבור Manual for Frum Girls" say, were we to write one?
RDE I am glad I read your reply at the end. I was ready to demolish this entire response by Tzadik which is only a bunch of lies, name calling, and Esav like halachik questions. He clearly shows that he does not need information so he doesn't use any to post his poison.
DeleteHas anyone claimed yet that a Satmar Beis Din could have handled this type of case fairly?
ReplyDeleteRabbi with all due respect.When the Steipler,Rav Silman and Rav Halberstam spoke perhaps they were speaking about the secular courts of Israel.Rabbi we are in danger here .I am sincerely afraid.I am prepared to abide by the the decision of the Gedolim whatever it is but I know two Jews murdered after being imprisoned in the United States Earl Kruger (HY"D) and Irv Rubin (HY"D).Imprisonment often is a death sentence.I don't care about Weberman.I care about the guy who comes next .Doesn't the situation of Jewry in Chutz La'aretz,not of perpetrators but anybody as well as the merely accused come into play in anything ?We believe in Daas Torah and will abide but first we have to know how our situation is addressed.
ReplyDeleteWhile it is definitely true that poskim are less concerned about a person being punished with imprisonment when it isn't life threatening - but it seems clear that if a small number of deaths occur out of millions of prisoners - it would not change the law.
DeleteFor example in BM 83a the claim against Rabbi Eliezer was that his reporting Jewish crimnals for theft was causing them to crucified - every single one - and yet that was not a factor in the halacha.
Rav Wosner (Shevet HaLevi 2:58)… Concerning the issue of reporting the tax cheat to the government see Bava Metzia (83b) concerning R’ Eliezer the son of Rav Shimon bar Yochai. The gemora reports that he reported thieves to the government. This is proof that where the government has authorized a Jew to report thieves that it is permitted. Even though he was criticized “how long are you handing the people of our G d to be killed” – because the punishment for thieves in those days was death. This is relevant also for a similar criticism from Eliyahu Hanavi to R’ Yishmael which is reported in that gemora. However the actual halacha seems that even when it results in the death penalty it is considered “the law of the land is the law.”…Even though revealing the information is permitted – it is not a pious thing to do as we see from the Yerushalmi. Also look at the Responsa of the Alshech who states that a person is not considered an informant for those things required by the law of the land….It is also obvious that this is not comparable to the case of R’ Eleazar ben R’ Shimon (Bava Metzia 83a) which involved danger to the person arrested. In contrast in our case here when they will just punish the person arrested and there is never a threat to life.
Tzadik?,
ReplyDeleteHe was over on issur nidah, probably aishes ish with other women and lo sikrivu legalos erva which has a din of yehoraig v'al yaavor. There is no question that he was a rodef of his victims to induce in them a desire to do very serious aveiros and he is a rodef of klal yisroel to besmirch them with his sinful acts.
Woe is to them that try to protect people who do such aveiros. I hope you are happy with the support that you are offering to all the pedophiles, child molesters and mechalilei shem shomaim so that they can continue preying on the neshomos haumlalim of your wonderful group.
Sedom was destroyed because of one girl who was killed because she tried to do chesed. How many pure neshomos have been destroyed in your community with your help and support. Are there 10 tzaddikim among you?
May Hashem have rachmonus on all of you and may you do teshuva for your support of reshoim and rodfim.
Tzadik, is the issur of bo'el nidah not in your shulchan oruch?
ReplyDeleteI don't understand my brother and all of these people fighting with TSADIK. Doesn't he tell us he is a TSADIK? Of course, a true tsadik is too modest to say "I am a tsadik" so he cleverly informed us of his perfection by assuming the blog name TSADIK. And if you knew how much a lawyer who defends child molesters earns, all of you would become TSADIK!
ReplyDeleteActually, I thought a lot about TSADIK's point, that our complaints must contain a quote from Shulchan Aruch. Where does it say we must defend people who destroy children? I believe it is in the sixth section of Shulchan Aruch on BAAL TESHAKTSU, but no reputable printer would publish it so it just disappeared!
Actually Tzadik did not give himself that name - though he did accept it. He originally posted anonymously and I gave him a name which I thought reflected his self-image.
DeletePeople who post anonymously actually face to possiblities. The majority go right into the spam folder. But others that I think offer something to the conversation which has been missing - I give a name to.
Was there a reason you made him a big tzadik, all in caps?
Delete"Tzadik said...Please, quote the se'if in shulchan oruch that he allegedly violated and the comparable years in jail for such a crime."
ReplyDeleteRaP: Weberman was oiver מסכת אבות פרק א that says:
ה יוסי בן יוחנן איש ירושלים אומר, יהי ביתך פתוח לרווחה, ויהיו עניים בני ביתך. ואל תרבה שיחה עם האישה--באשתו אמרו, קל וחומר באשת חברו; מכאן אמרו חכמים, כל המרבה שיחה עם האישה--גורם רעה לעצמו, ובטיל מדברי תורה, וסופו יירש גיהינם.
"...The Sages said: Anyone who converses excessively with a woman causes evil to himself, neglects Torah study and will eventually inherit Gehinnom!"
"More importantly, this shiksa did not ask a shailo, not to the steipler ztl nor any rabbi."
RaP: Weberman's victim is not a shiksa, she is 100% Jewish halachically, she comes from a very frum Satmar mishpocha and her family still lives there. He is responsible for making sure that she went and remains off the derech (OTD). She is obviously not asking the shaylo, so don't be absurd, she doesn't have to, it is people who are frum who might ask how it is possible al pi Halacha to rely in secular courts. In the golus everyone has to be aware that at the end of the day they must face the strong possibility that they will face secular law, it will be useless to commit crimes, be arrested, and then want the legal system of a person's ethnic origin to come to his rescue. Thus an Amazon headhunter cannot chop off someone's head in the USA and then come to a secular court and tell the jury and judge that in South America it is "normal" to cut off people's heads as trophies. Likewise, since Satmar knows they live in golus in America they must be idiots if they think that they have a petur ("exemption") from American law. You don't need a rabbi to tell you that, your brain should tell you that, it's toit poshut!
"According to 'inside info' she married an irrelgious youth after consorting with him as a niddah; and continues to flirt Hilchos Tahara."
RaP: All that proves is that she now a 100% tinok shenishba (and the Chazon Ish long ago said that EVERY Jew in our modern generation is a tinok shenishba!) At least she married another Jew. Please try to contact a kiruv rechokim professional near you to give you advice how to MEKAREV people and how NOT to MERACHEK them like you are doing to this victim, in America try AJOP, NJOP, NCSY, CHABAD, AISH, OHR ALL OF THEM ARE ORTHODOX AND FRUM KIRUV RECHOKIM ORGANIZATIONS THAT COULD HELP and many others who is the best person to help you mekarev them all back to Yiddishskeit. Stop your Fascistic "aryan race" way of thinking.
I don't know what to make of this.When it comes to masering people, certain people in Williamsburg have no problem in doing this.And I am not even talking about rape or molestation.The editor of a paper called Hadras Panim ,Chaim Shaulson was stung by the Brooklyn,DA that was the result and with the cooperation of Satmar Chassidim .What possible heter could there have been for this???But being boel a Nidah,raping her then certain people cry Mesirah. Unbelievable!
Delete"Dont bother supporting Mesira with quotes from Rabbis she couldn't care less about."
ReplyDeleteRaP: It is not "mesira" to call the police at 911 when someone has tried to harm you or is trying to blackmail you. And again, don't mix her in, she is obviously not calling rabbis because after Weberman she hates all rabbis for life. The point is, that why frum people are so puzzled by this oinesh that Weberman is getting, when they are getting some logical and Torahdikke answers.
"The question is to you, as a Rabbi, who writes Indexes on Halacha seforim, not Yeshurun publications."
RaP: Are you such a beginner that you don't know that Halacha is decided by printed and even oral shaylos and teshuvos?!
"Which se'if in shulchan oruch is a basis for years in jail that he was allegedly oiver?"
RaP: This problem is already discussed in the Tanach, it is much more serious than any se'if in Shulchan Oruch. See for example: שמואל א פרק ב
כב וְעֵלִי, זָקֵן מְאֹד; וְשָׁמַע, אֵת כָּל-אֲשֶׁר יַעֲשׂוּן בָּנָיו לְכָל-יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְאֵת אֲשֶׁר-יִשְׁכְּבוּן אֶת-הַנָּשִׁים, הַצֹּבְאוֹת פֶּתַח אֹהֶל מוֹעֵד. כג וַיֹּאמֶר לָהֶם, לָמָּה תַעֲשׂוּן כַּדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה, אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי שֹׁמֵעַ אֶת-דִּבְרֵיכֶם רָעִים, מֵאֵת כָּל-הָעָם אֵלֶּה. כד אַל, בָּנָי: כִּי לוֹא-טוֹבָה הַשְּׁמֻעָה אֲשֶׁר אָנֹכִי שֹׁמֵעַ, מַעֲבִרִים עַם-יְהוָה. כה אִם-יֶחֱטָא אִישׁ לְאִישׁ, וּפִלְלוֹ אֱלֹהִים, וְאִם לַיהוָה יֶחֱטָא-אִישׁ, מִי יִתְפַּלֶּל-לוֹ; וְלֹא יִשְׁמְעוּ לְקוֹל אֲבִיהֶם, כִּי-חָפֵץ יְהוָה לַהֲמִיתָם.
ל לָכֵן, נְאֻם-יְהוָה אֱלֹהֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, אָמוֹר אָמַרְתִּי, בֵּיתְךָ וּבֵית אָבִיךָ יִתְהַלְּכוּ לְפָנַי עַד-עוֹלָם; וְעַתָּה נְאֻם-יְהוָה חָלִילָה לִּי, כִּי-מְכַבְּדַי אֲכַבֵּד וּבֹזַי יֵקָלּוּ. לא הִנֵּה, יָמִים בָּאִים, וְגָדַעְתִּי אֶת-זְרֹעֲךָ, וְאֶת-זְרֹעַ בֵּית אָבִיךָ--מִהְיוֹת זָקֵן, בְּבֵיתֶךָ.
לד וְזֶה-לְּךָ הָאוֹת, אֲשֶׁר יָבֹא אֶל-שְׁנֵי בָנֶיךָ--אֶל-חָפְנִי, וּפִינְחָס: בְּיוֹם אֶחָד, יָמוּתוּ שְׁנֵיהֶם. לה וַהֲקִימֹתִי לִי כֹּהֵן נֶאֱמָן, כַּאֲשֶׁר בִּלְבָבִי וּבְנַפְשִׁי יַעֲשֶׂה; וּבָנִיתִי לוֹ בַּיִת נֶאֱמָן, וְהִתְהַלֵּךְ לִפְנֵי-מְשִׁיחִי כָּל-הַיָּמִים.
"22 Now Eli was very old; and he heard all that his sons did unto all Israel, and how that they lay with the women that did service at the door of the tent of meeting. 23 And he said unto them: 'Why do ye such things? for I hear evil reports concerning you from all this people. 24 Nay, my sons; for it is no good report which I hear the LORD'S people do spread abroad. 25 If one man sin against another, God shall judge him; but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall entreat for him?' But they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them.
30 Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, saith: I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before Me for ever; but now the LORD saith: Be it far from Me: for them that honour Me I will honour, and they that despise Me shall be lightly esteemed. 31 Behold, the days come, that I will cut off thine arm, and the arm of thy father's house, that there shall not be an old man in thy house.
34 And this shall be the sign unto thee, that which shall come upon thy two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas: in one day they shall die both of them. 35 And I will raise Me up a faithful priest, that shall do according to that which is in My heart and in My mind; and I will build him a sure house; and he shall walk before Mine anointed for ever."
Do Weberman and the other Charedi and Orthodox sexual predators who are posing as "klei koidesh" but are really "sheep in wolf's clothing" think they are "better" or "safer" or "smarter" than the Bnai Eli?
Thank You Thank You, for spelling it out clearly to those that still don't yet understand or don't want to.
ReplyDeleteHi R Eidonsohn
ReplyDeleteCan I ask you is abusing young children evilness or a sickness?
I don't understand your dichotomy. Why can't it be both?
DeleteAnd if it is a sickness then he does not belong in jail with evil criminals.
ReplyDeleteAh, but....
If it is a sickness we cannot have him attacking more girls and the only, repeat only, way to stop him attacking more girls is by calling the police and using the criminal justice system because only they have the power and authority.
I am grateful for this excellent blog.There is a lot of confusion that Daas Torah,an expert in this field clears up .Questions of mesirah ,when secular courts can be used,etc.Kudos!This current subject is very ugly.These things are so repugnant.Sadly there is need for this but I hope not forever .
ReplyDeleteMoshe pretty much summed it up. I know someone who has been charged with abusing young children (male children) many years ago. He seems to be a really nice person etc. It is kind of confusing because if it is a sickness (for example I don't feel any temptation whatsoever to touch a young boy) then my feelings for him are more of pity than he deserves to be punished. Obviously if he does abuse, he needs to be put away so he has no more contact with children and cannot cause any further harm. However, if it is an evilness, like premeditated to actually harm someone, then he deserves to be punished and there is no need for pity.
ReplyDeleteLet me complicate the picture. Many child molestors pick out awkward or lonely children and befriend them. They feel that they are actually helping their victims. On the other hand there are molestors who simply don't comprehend they are devastating their victims. They lack empathy. Does either make them evil? or does it make them sick?
DeletePut another way - how can any one hurt/embarrass/get angry/ etc another person? is it sickness or evil?
Do you mean a misguided type of help? In other words the molesters think they are helping the child (not damaging them)? If that is the case, it sounds more like a sickness than evilness and jail would not be the ideal solution. The best would be therapy while sufficiently protecting the community from the abusers reoffending.
ReplyDeleteIs the conviction and incareceration of the abuser useful for the therapy and healing of the victim?
One thing which I don't remember if I took it from your books on abuse, but we teach our children there are never any secrets from Abba and Imma. We go through play roles so for example we ask them if your Rebbe or principal (and we name them) told you something or did something to you and said keep it a secret, its our secret, that they should always say that there are no secrets from Abba and Imma and we tell them everything. I know some people will say we are causing them to say loshon horo, but I think the benefit outweights the supposed aveira. Because if I understand correctly, abusers will often tell kids that its our secret
Following your approach - perhaps all crimes are really sickness. Thus if a person steals he should receive therapy but not jail time. if he kills he should be given therapy etc etc. If he transgresses Shabbos - he should be sent for therapy.
DeleteHowever this approach that all deviance is sickeness has been tried - it generally doesn't work. There is evidence that jail time does reduce the liklihood of abusing or at least while they are in jail they don't abuse children. The most effective treatment is castration - would you recommend all molesters are castrated?
The issue of keeping secrets was not mentioned in my books - but it is important. My main focus in my books is establishing what abuse is because a normal person has trouble understanding that someone would hurt children that way. In addition I focused on the halachic justification and need for calling the police.
I have both of your books - I will have a look when I get a chance. I thought there were some guidelines in there where I got that idea of teaching my children that there are no secrets. Maybe And I extended it to actually role playing it out with figureheads they were actually familiar with and trusted. But maybe I just thought of the idea after reading your books - I don't remember.
ReplyDeleteI think there is a distinction between different types of crimes ie saying some are actually sicknesses whereas others are deviances. Like with children, when they do something wrong it is not called evil but they need to receive admonishment or punishment to teach them not to do it again. But a child who has adhd for example, a punishment might not be useful to calm him down. And was wondering whether abuse falls more in the category of a child misbehaving or a child with adhd misbehaving.
I guess a more simple distinction would be does an abuser know what he/she is doing is wrong?
ReplyDeleteI would love to give all sick people therapy but how can Avraham and I ensure Weberman stays away from young girls while we give him therapy? Will Doctor Nachum Klafter be able to give therapy to all these predatory serial child abusers or will he tell us it is next to impossible to heal them?
ReplyDeleteMoshe,
ReplyDeleteI am certainly not advocating therapy without being locked up somewhere. I am just not sure if jail is the most appropriate place if it is more a sickness than a evil. Again I am not even sure if it can't be both as R'Eidonsohn asked earlier. In every type of aveira there is the ruach shtut. It is just confusing, as I don't see any hanaa in touching either a minor girl or boy. But again maybe it is not different from rape - the abuser in some kind of sick way is getting sexual gratification and therefore it is the same as raping a woman which I would consider evil and not a sickness. Anyway, it is kind of confusing.
I just checked in your book R Eidonsohn. I think I slightly extended an idea that appears there. On page 99, it says encourage your child to tell you about unusual incidents and on page 102 it says children must be told to advise their parents of any abusive behaviour. Now I took these guidelines and extended them to telling my child there are never any secrets from Abba and Ima and used role plays with people of authority they were familiar with and said if that person told you he has a secret but you can't tell anyone, would you listen or would you tell him that there are no secrets from Abba and Imma and you tell them everything. The reason I made that extension is because I do not think young children are capable of understanding what is unusual and usual behaviour. It is easier to make a blanket statement that there are never any secrets from Abba and Imma. Do you think this approach is within the boundaries of halacha? Is it also a common strategy of abusers to tell children this is our secret?
ReplyDeleteyes this is within the boundaries of halacha and yes it is a common strategy of abusers
DeletePART I
DeleteFor you Tzadikel of December 11, 2012 6:17 PM,
& 4 U
AnonymousDecember 11, 2012 6:36 PM
An open letter Veda ma Shetashuv to the She'eilos Tam and chuchem leHera, of the Aguddeh of various scenarios
(A) Sickness and Evil in COMBO
There is no room for chakiras shtus of whether it is sickness or evil or both. Should a Kleptomaniac be let off the hook because it is also a sickness? To steal is to steal is to steal is to steal, no matter how you slice it, lo Tignov applies, and we have never heard of a defence for such, ein adam choteh ele im ken nichnas bo ruach shtut. When he is still in full control of his faculties, he is to adhere to Hilchos Yichud as a preventitve measure. This evil man violated it with three locks, and riding high for 12++ hours, provided them ESNAN paam BEONESS pun intended, upaam kefaam berotzon of his own, and not only one woman came forth, but numerous and still going strong. Ayin Rashb'a for eidus nashim when NUMEROUS in complaints. Therefore, if you do the crime, you do the time.
(B) Sickness of ADDICTION in solo, as of for the present and current time only
A Sorrer Umoreh is nidan al shem sofo, and his formed habit is considered an addiction bound for future evil, although for the moment it is only enenu shomea bekolenu, and
1) Torah spares the lives of FUTURE POTENTIAL VICTIMS,
2) VeYamut zakay veal yamut chayav.
A RODEF is considered a ROTSEACH in hot pursuit, worthy of capital punishment.
(C) Evil in solo
A Rotseach is an EVIL person who has given notice on society and must be done away with. If Bemeizid, it is nefesh tachas nofesh, capital punishment, if beShogeg, he is locked up in Arei Miklat for L*I*F*E* or Ad ki yamus hakohen hagadol, that could be well over his own lifetime. Since we do not have today a Sanhedrin, let Dina demalchuse Dina give him a BeShogeg punishment, which includes a full LIFE term. So much for your SE'IF of where is the act, and where is PRISON as a FORM of punishment. Such High crimes against society is of Biblical proportions and "YANIU AMAS HASSIPIM", way over the RICHTER SCALE.
For you Tzadikel of December 11, 2012 6:17 PM, NOT only is such punishment rooted BEMEFURESH DEORAYSA, but consider it yet a BARGAIN.
Once EVIL is captured and confined to JAIL, sitting together with other Arei Miklat criminals (Don't forget that originally he was a ROTZEACH BEMEIZID without ***Eidim***, Except that VeHoelokim Ina Leyado), whether al pi chakira it is therapeutic or as a retribution, hakol modim, that his confinement is a relief to society from his inflicting danger. Therefore Tzadikel, al tehi tzadik harbe, don't look neither for Se'ifim, or poseach al shnei heSe'ifim in all the wrong places, look no further than your Chumash. See Masechet Sanhedrin 73 amud alef, Ve'eli hen shematzilin osan benafshon, harodef achar chavero lehorgo, veachar haZachar...etc. See the whole page. It is all based on LO TAAMOD AL DAM REACHA,
My Dear Tzadikel, when is search of DIN TORAH for Retsicha, Giluy Arayos, Avizarayhu Degiluy Arayos of maasseh Chidudin, Boalei Nidos, Child MOLESTER is nidan as a RODEF by POSKEI GEDOLEI HADOR, we are not compelled to be bodek the tztziyot of the NIFGA to say NIRVA YATZIL if you get my drift, it is solely based on the deeds of the ROTZEACH!
continued on next...
Part II
Deleteof the tzadiklach
FURTHERMORE my Dear Tzadik BiSDOM,
I DARE YOU!
This EVIL, SICK, PERVERTED, TWISTED RASHA, MENUVEL SHELO BIRSHUT HATORAH, ROTZEACH, CHILD MOLESTER, EISHES ISH MOLESTER RAPIST, Burning literally the GUF tartei mashma and the NESHAMA, CONVICTED (torah)THE-RAPIST, HOW DARE YOU,
HARATZACHTA VEGAM YARASHTA???
A 53 year dirty old man, takes a minor, helpless, vulnerable 12 year old to provide RACHMUNE LITZLAN this alleged TORAH THERAPY chas milhazkir, which was given to parents as an OFFER THEY CAN NOT REFUSE lest be thrown out as an outcast, PAYING BIG TIME MONEY, and instead of guiding her, he IS AN 'OF' TUME & Ugh...TORAF TOIREF ACHOYSENU, A TREIFA 'OF' AND DOIRESS, PIFFEL KASHOR, UBOEL KACHAMOR ben SCHEM, VeDORESS KA'ARI IN RAPING OUR SISTER DINA, forces his Tamene hands down her body in spite of her protests STOP STOP, but continues instead stooping so LOW so LOW, and you dare scream KOZAK HANIGZAL and MAASSEH EISHES POTIFAR. HALOY TITSLALNA AZNAV KOL SHOMEA OZEN!!! How dare you call her names, AFRA LEPIMAYCHI! Why don't you rather scream at him FRANKENSTEIN WEBERSCHMUTZ, "SHAYGATZ AROIS".
& You lil pipsqueek of:
AnonymousDecember 11, 2012 6:36 PM
a/k/a as tzadikel tomchei cholim berosh lecholi, wishing you a refuas hanefesh urfuas haguf.
The Se'if you are in search of Noach's teiva and Eisav's abba heich meassrin et hateven is nothing other than ZIBEN GREIZEN looking in all the wrong non-corresponding places.
Look in Hilchos Tinoykes shenishbu bein ha'akim, kein hadavar hahi, kaasher yakum ish urtzocha NEFESH. After all the proof in the pudding of the above, how DARE you call her her shiksa??? Didn't this menuval ausvourf, the "off the the derech asher lo yelchu BUM" va'asher yikashlu BUM, sheyinokshu beshininam, vehakhe es shinav, this RASHA OF THE AGADDAH execute kol minei aveiros of ARAYOS bein adam lechavero. Even your own chaveirim declared this menuvel of being currently himself in Therapy at the HEIGHTS of this COURT CASE. What happened, you changed your mind, huh?
And O' yes, before we forget, you have one Se'if for Rosh Habiryonim of Mishmeres Vaad haZnus, where Messira and Dinei Yichud are (not) applied, and another Se'if for TRUE VICTIMS. Hayitachen? Doesn't such, Torah achas yihye lechem apply, or better yet, EIFO/EVEN achas yihye lecha kedemechchiyavta MiDeAyrayso? Ad matay ata poseach al SHNEI heSE'IFIM??? You are not worthy even the Kash vaTeven shel Eisav, nor the Feed of Chamoro shel Pinchas ben Yair. It seems so much more of having rather a common denominator with NECHEMYE ben Chamor of SCHEMYE, and that is still being quite generous to you. What have you got to say about the porn films he made her watch, only to peform him MBP lehanossoy like BML. He tries to outdo Aleksander Mokdon or Don Juan? This is worse than beastiality TFUY TFUY TFUY. Did he have a filter on his computer, or a vaad HaZnus check on it if it complies and conforms as appropriate to watch, or was it with full Hechsher and Gushpanka of his Higher Uppers. It is the MOLESTERS that is the problem, and not the filters is the problem. It is only tole killelosay beacherim, and utilized as an arva porach.
As for summation:
When dealing with a RODEF of Biblical proportions such as of this kind, do what you need to do, and no questions asked, in line with Poskei Hador, nothing more, nothing less. Vezeh kol hatorah kula.
I would highly advise you and your ilk. Stop being a BAS haYA'ANA, look in the mirror and admit to yourself, and to the whole wide world, before this CHILLUL HASHEM will hit the INTERNATIONAL FAN beyond control and smear all of Klall Yisrael B'RESH GLI with your OSSEH MAASEH ZIMRI, that you have erred. Protect our young, the helpless, the infirm, the weak, ollelim veyonkim before it is too late. And that will be the Kiddush Hashem of the Century.
END...
there is nothing to add. This last entry sums it all up. It hurts just to read the words.
Deletethank you for being so articulate.
very good approach to such matters
ReplyDeleteand this
ReplyDelete