Thursday, October 11, 2012

Alshech: Harm of Talking a lot with one's Wife

Alshech (Vayikra 9:24): There is concern that by welcoming guests – as proposed by Avos 1:5 - into your home that some of them might become too friendly with your wife and this will lead to sin.The solution proposed by this mishna is that the husband should not talk a lot with his wife. This is to convey the message that if a man needs to reduce the idle chatter [sicha] he has with his own wife then surely he should not be talking a lot with the wife of another or becoming overly friendly with her. This is what is meant by,“And this prohibition of not talking a lot is in regard to his own wife.” Thus when people come to your house and they see you minimizing talking to your wife they will make the deduction that surely they should minimize talking to her because she is the wife of another. However such a solution will reasonably cause the husband to be concerned by a probable serious side effect of minimizing conversations with his wife.. He will reason, "If the Sages said that in order to prevent guests from talking too much to my wife that I need to minimize what I say to her – then there is a better solution. It is better not to have guests rather than to minimize having a close relationship with my wife and in particular in speaking with her.” In fact he will reasonably conclude that the mitzva of domestic tranquility is very important and that love between a man and his wife is more important than love amongst others. However his reasoning is rejected as can be seen by the fact that Rav Yehuda HaNasi (the editor of the Mishna) states that we do in fact learn that one must minimize talking to wives of other men even more so then to one’s own wife. That is  because he saw that Yossi ben Yochanon was not concerned with the possibility that minimizing conversation with ones wife would harm the marriage. In fact we learn from this that talking a lot with one’s wife does not result in love and domestic tranquility. The opposite is true. It actually produces much harm. There are three different types of harm. Firstly it causes harm to oneself since it leads to increased sexual relations - that even though that is permitted – it causes physical weakness & deterioration. It is also possible that this will result in premature aging which are called the days of evil. Secondly by spending a great deal of time in conversation with his wife – he forsakes Torah study. Thirdly because he becomes accustomed to spend an excessive amount of time with her, he will come to have sexual intercourse with her even when she is a niddah and thus he will directly sin. This will result in that he will end up going to Gehinom and not returning. That is described by this mishna (Avos 1:5) as “inheriting Gehiniom” since Gehinom will be all that he has.

the key to understand the above is what does the term sicha mean and what is "a lot"

Meiri(Avos 1:5): Don’t have too much sicha (idle conversation) with a woman. The term sicha means speech which has no real purpose which is why people say sicha betalila (conversation with no purpose). For example Avoda Zara (19b) regarding Torah scholars their sicha requires close study. In other words even when they seem to be simply conversing without purpose, there is substance in their words which needs to be carefully studied. Some issue might be alluded to in their words or character or ethics can be gleaned from them.

44 comments:

  1. Do we still have a mitzwa to behave this way? Not talk to our wives, and too bad for her if she does not like it?

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    1. the key is what does the term sicha mean and what is "a lot"

      Meiri(Avos 1:5): Don’t have too much sicha (idle conversation) with a woman. The term sicha means speech which has no real purpose which is why people say sicha betalila (conversation with no purpose). For example Avoda Zara (19b) regarding Torah scholars their sicha requires close study. In other words even when they seem to be simply conversing without purpose, there is substance in their words which needs to be carefully studied. Some issue might be alluded to in their words or character or ethics can be gleaned from them.

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    2. As a psychologist you should know that in a couple, you cannot really draw a line between "idle" and "purposeful" conversation. Communication sometimes just serves the need of keeping communication lines open.

      I think it could be quite a cause of marital distress if a husband was to take those maxims too seriously...

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    3. Rather strange statement. According to you we can't really "draw a line between" good or bad acts or thoughts - so we wont' try because we need to keep communication lines open?! We really can't be sure that discipline is good or bad so therefore we won't discipline our kids etc etc etc. I have met many couples who didn't understand what good and bad communication was and that was the basis for their troubles.

      "I think it could be quite a cause of marital distress if a husband was to take those maxims too seriously..."

      The reverse is also true - if a couple is not concerned with behavior or speech patterns which are harmful - it also causes problems.

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    4. We are not talking about harmful here, it is about "idle", i.e. serving no obvious purpose, talking for the sake of talking. That is part of life together, and if one spouse were to wish to talk for the sake of talking and the other would refuse it on religious grounds, I don't think it would do the marriage any good...

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    5. The mishna did not say "no idle chatter is permitted." According to the Meiri if the idle chatter serves a useful purpose for the marriage - it also is not prohibited. However if the relationship is built on "idle chatter" and nothing else - that is where the problems start.

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  2. The first type of harm that he describes, is, how do I say this respectfully, nonsense. Excess sex causes premature aging? Nu b'emet.

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    1. Where is the evidence that supports your assertion?

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    2. Where is the evidence that supports the assertion that excessive sex causes premature aging? The one who makes a claim must prove it...

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    3. Actually, I think that the onus is on the person making assertions to prove his case. In addition, given that whatever writes about medicine (and sex) is wrapped in 16 century thought, why would I have to prove anything???? Are you claiming that he is infallible also?

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    4. in other words you don't have any evidence to the contrary. No this is not a question of infalliblity. The Rambam makes a similiar statement Hilchos De'os 4:19 based on what doctors say. In other words this has been assumed to be true for thousands of years by people in many societies.

      If you want to bring evidence that it is not true or is no longer true - I am willing to consider it. However just because a belief is old doesn't automatically invalidate it.

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    5. right but assertions about biology usually require some sort of evidence. that people believe stuff for thousands of years is a meaningless claim. should we make a list of "known facts that people believed for thousands of years" that turned out to be completely and absolutely false?

      key word in your statement is "assumed; not proven, no evidence brought.

      there are still people who believe that the earth is flat. OK so people believe; az mah?

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    6. Actually it's the opposite. There is now medical evidence that frequent intercourse has an anti-aging effect.

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    7. DT is suggesting that good and bad is the same as idle and purposeful chatter. Hence, to talk about fashion, history of art, or any other issue not related to home economics and halacha is idle and hence evil. This is essentially DT's claim.



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    8. here is a study finding that high sexual activity reduces mortality / increases longevity...

      http://longevity.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=longevity&cdn=health&tm=36&f=00&su=p284.13.342.ip_p1026.33.342.ip_&tt=11&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi%3Fdb%3Dpubmed%26cmd%3DRetrieve%26dopt%3DAbstractPlus%26list_uids%3D9448525%26query_hl%3D7%26itool%3Dpubmed_docsum

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    9. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16282622#.UHcAzlFXJbw

      here is another study stating that regular sex improves longevity...

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    10. Brad what evidence did you bring that there is no such thing as too much? The Forbes study dealt with normal people - the Alshech is talking about the extreme. Rav Moshe and others posken that sex is a minimum of twice a week - which is within the findings of the Forbes study.

      The Forbes study concluded:

      But is there such a thing as too much sex?

      The answer, in purely physiological terms, is this: If you're female, probably not. If you're male? You betcha.

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    11. Brad you seem to have difficulty either understanding what the Alshech said about too much sex or you don't understand that the studies you cited do not deal with the extreme. If they showed that people who have sex three times a day were healthier than those who had it two times a week then you would be correct - but it doesn't say that nor does it discuss it.

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  3. > In fact he will reasonably conclude that the mitzva of domestic tranquility is very important and that love between a man and his wife is more important than love amongst others

    Or he might conclude the opposite - let's have lots of company over and avoid speaking to his wife entirely. After all, if excessive conversation is bad and even minimal is just tolerated, why interact with her at all? Just text her... oh hang on, that was banned, right?

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    1. But that is not what the mishna says or how the Alshech and others understand it.

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    2. The mishna did not say "no idle chatter is permitted." According to the Meiri if the idle chatter serves a useful purpose for the marriage - it also is not prohibited. However if the relationship is built on "idle chatter" and nothing else - that is where the problems start.

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    3. The prohibition of "idle talk" with women, including one's own wife, combined with the assertion that a woman is obliged to satisfy her husband even when she does not want gives a quite sordid picture of jewish marriage...

      Looks like the woman was to serve the husband (wash his feet, prepare his meals, fetch him water, produce wool to contribute to family income), to satisfy his sexual desires (in whatever shape he wanted) and not to be heard or seen otherwise.

      This might work for some couples, but what about the women who do prefer other arrangements?

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    4. Brad you are creating a straw man. You are simply misrepresenting what was presented. The simple halacha is that the sexual relations with one's wife is only if she is interested.

      Shulchan Aruch (E.H. 25:2): A man should not have sex with his wife unless she is willing. If she is not willing he should placate her until she is willing. …

      Rambam (Hilchos De’os 5:4):… A husband should not force his wife to have sexual intercourse when she doesn’t want it. Rather it should always be done with the desire of both of them and with their happiness. Therefore he should speak and joke a bit with her in order that she be in the mood. He should have intercourse with shyness and not with arrogance and then should separate immediately.

      Eiruvin (100b): It is prohibited for a man to force his wife to participate in the mitzva of intercourse… Whoever forces his to wife to participate in the mitzva of intercourse will have children who are unworthy. What is the proof? It is Mishlei (19:2): Also without consent the soul is not good. It was also taught in a braissa: Also without consent the soul is not good – that is referring to a man who forces his wife to participate in the mitzva of intercourse.

      Avodas HaKodesh (Tziporin Shamir 11:166): It is permitted to flatter also ones wife for the sake of domestic tranquility, ones teacher so that he will teach you Torah, and ones student so that he will learn from you.

      Bartenuro (Avos 1:5):…And our Sages say something similar (Chagiga 5): Tell the man his conversations – that mean that even the light talk between a man and his wife will be told him at the moment of judgment [and he will be judged]. However not if this is necessary to placate his wife before intercourse such as Rav who talked and joked before having relations with his wife.

      Chagiga (5b): He… tells man what his conversation was (Amos 4:13) – what does this mean? Rav said that even the superfluous conversation [jesting prior to sexual relations – Rashi] between a man and his wife is told him at the time of his death [and judgment is passed on him]. But is this so? Didn’t Rav Kahane once hide under the bed of Rav [when he was with his wife] and he heard them converse and jest and then Rav fulfilled his needs? Rav Kahane was so astonished by this that he said ,”The mouth of Rav is as one who has not tasted any food [he acted like he had a strong lust for intercourse – Rashi].” Rav then said to him, “Kahane get out – this is very disrespectful!” This is not a contradiction: He is allowed to jest with her to get her in the proper mood, while that jesting which is not needed is why judgement is given.

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    5. "that mean that even the light talk between a man and his wife will be told him at the moment of judgment [and he will be judged]. However not if this is necessary to placate his wife before intercourse such as Rav who talked and joked before having relations with his wife."

      That's exactly what I mean: the wife is a sexual object, talking to her might be permitted for the purpose of intercourse, but not otherwise...

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    6. My point was different. Look, here's an example: the halacha demands a woman cover her arms to her elbows. So why did the Chasidim in Immanuel make the school uniform sleeves go down to the wrist? Where did the Burka babes come from?
      There are always people with no sense of proportion. If those people read this then it will be very easy for them to conclude that if a lot of talking with one's wife is not good then perhaps the most perfect approach to avoid problems is avoid talking all together!

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    7. you are correct - no matter what wisdom is presented to people - if they have no seichal they will still mess up.

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  4. Where is the evidence that supports the assertion that excessive sex causes premature aging? The one who makes a claim must prove it...

    The Rambam makes a similiar statement

    The same Rambam says that excessive sex causes one to lose his hair, to lose his eye sights and to have bad breath, so if you see a balding Jew wearing glasses and having bad breath (even big rabbis) you know why.

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    1. http://cure-erectile-dysfunction.org/vision-problems-eye-floaters-and-sexual-activity

      High frequency sex activity can give you vision problems and eye disorders. If an orgasm induces excessive glutamate in the nervous synapse, photoreceptors or retinal extracellular space, and aging effect on the retinal circuitry will be observed, if severe enough it can be damaged or even blacken out.

      Excessive sex induced stresses hormones norepinephrine and epinephrine may damage retinal endothelial cells, inflames eye balls and retina, and dilate eye pupils.

      There are several sex-induced eye or vision problems:

      Eye Floaters
      The deficiency of dopamine, serotonin, GABA, glycine, agmatine and androgen hormones (DHT, DHEA and testosterone) plus excess or deficiency of cortisol, norepinephrine, epinephrine and prolactin may seriously damage visual sensors circuitry. The optometrists can't detect quantities of them inside your eyeballs, so may lead the treatment to an absolutely wrong direction. Other symptoms may be present, such as: poor eye blood circulation, damaged eye capillaries, abnormal clearance of glutamate in certain photoreceptors in response to light, or even damaged photoreceptors that constantly release excessive glutamate to shut off the post-synaptic response to light.
      When glycine (an inhibitory neurotransmitter in the central nervous system, brainstem, spinal cord, and retina) receptors are activated, chloride will enter the neuron via ionotropic receptors, causing the so called Inhibitory postsynaptic potential.

      Redness
      It's caused by breakage of capillaries, inflammation by the excessive prostaglandin E2-norepinephrine-epinephrine and insufficient prostaglandin E1, mechanical damage, low cortisol, or excessive histamine.

      Light over-sensitivity in the Retina
      There is a circular opening located in the center of the iris that controls the amount of light that enters the eye. Excessive prostaglandin E2 (induced by excessive norepinephrine) and histamine in the retina, accompanied with a lack of serotonin, glycine, GABA and prostaglandin E1, can over-excite the visual receiving sensors.

      Melatonin is the main light sensitivity regulator. It is responsible for the photomechanical movement, cone photoreceptor and elongation and the contraction of different photoreceptors. Melatonin decreases when the light is decreasing, this is done to increase the photosensitivity of the receiving circuits, thus compensating the weak visibility by clearing the perception. Also a dopamine is being released in the retina, but increases after light exposure and decreases in darkness. Melatonin is the darkness hormone while dopamine is the light hormone.

      As a feedback control of the visual circuit, the photosensitivity of the receiving circuit decreases as dopamine increases, so that there is no truncation of visual signals entering the visual cortex. When the dopamine level is too low, though, the retinal receiving circuit becomes too sensitive to light. The eye pupils become dilated by the norepinephrine - sympathetic nervous function.

      Melatonin also modulates the retinal pigment epithelium (RPE) function by aggregating pigmented cells in the RPE and choroid of the eye. Another way for melatonin to regulate the amount of light entering the photoreceptor is by controling the movement of melanosome granules within the RPE where melanosome granules store melanin. Melatonin can also alter the electrical activity of the RPE.

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    2. http://cure-erectile-dysfunction.org/symptoms-of-sexual-exhaustion

      Sexual exhaustion symptoms include:

      Memory loss - in the form of attention deficiency or/and losing memory, and mind concentration. This is caused by a deficiency of the neurotransmitters serotonin and acetylcholine, which are responsible for the memory protection.

      Headaches or migraines - due to excessive release of the inflammatory hormone prostaglandin E-2, accompanied with dopamine-norepinephrine-epinephrine conversion in the brain, caused by the exhausted the acetylcholine, serotonin and GABA nervous system.

      Tiredness and exhaustion - low levels of dopamine, and excessive prolactin that shuts down the testicular function, leading to failure in the parasympathetic nervous recharging system.

      Weakness in the muscles - due to deficiency of testosterone, DHEA, and DHT.

      Parkinson's symptoms(muscle tremors or twitching) - because of acetylcholine and dopamine deficiency.

      Premature ejaculation - due to the low levels of serotonin and acetylcholine, accompanied with a damage of the prostate and urethral nerves.

      Hair Loss - due to the excessive burning to DHT.

      Low libido - due high levels of prolactin and deficiency of acetylcholine, dopamine, serotonin, and oxytocin

      Vision Problems and Eye Floaters - due to disorders in the acetylcholine, and dopamine nervous circuits. A deficiency of proper serotonin-GABA nervous modulation in the retina, poor retinal blood circulation, and an arterial constriction.

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    3. WADR to dr Richards, that web site doesn't inspire trust. He is anti circumcision as well.

      Quotes from the Mayo Clinic, New England Journal of Medicine, a standard medical school text book would be more convincing.

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    4. fascinating stuff! But frustrated by the lack (as far as I could tell) of the frequency of sexual activity that is normally required for these symptoms to kick in. Also, the lack of clinical data combined with an overabundance of mechanistic possibilities makes me concerned that the website is a bit alterna-sketchy.

      I'm still not convinced that most monogamous couples are capable of being sufficiently sexually active for these symptoms to kick in, no matter how much time they spend speaking with each other. In such a case, the medical reason for chazal's prescription of limiting speaking with one's wife seems deficient to me, and I'm finding some of the other reasons presented in other sources to be more compelling.

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    5. With all due respect, your choice of "authoritative" websites could be a bit better.

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    6. The studies that were selected as evidence - without random assignment - might likewise be dismissed. They could simply be showing that healthy people are more sexually active than less healthy people. And therefore it "proves" that those people who are more sexually active are also more healthy. We are looking for causality not correlation.

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    7. I agree with Garnel: he presents no sources that would confirm what he says, the whole website looks quite phoney... To me it looks like a - true or fake - Doctor who sells cures of excessive masturbation.... The articles do not seem serious, even if they are amply filled with medical verbiage... Not convincing to me...

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    8. I searched a database for academic articles on the topic of "sexual exhaustion" and couldn't find any discussions in the literature, though it may be discussed. Interestingly Dr. Richards list of references doesn't seem to have any articles clearly discussing the issue despite its prevalence on his site. Furthermore his discussion about natural methods for "enlargement" add to a general impression of quackery.

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  5. here are a couple of other age old truisms:

    absence makes the heart grow fonder
    familiarity breeds contempt

    it is far from clear (to me anyway) that excess chatter will bring about all of these horrible things.

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  6. Brad wrote:
    That's exactly what I mean: the wife is a sexual object, talking to her might be permitted for the purpose of intercourse, but not otherwise...

    you can just as easily say that the man is a sexual object who job is to satisfy his wife. The halacha is describing the minimum - the optimum. If you wish to ignore all the statement that Chazal made as well as what goes on in the real world with real people and just keep repeating that the wife is a sex object - there is not much point in continuing this. Your reductionism is simply a caricature

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    1. Well you can look at it this way: marrying for love and companionship is a recently recent phenomenon in human history. Up until the 20th century most marriage was about economics and social standing. As a result, marriage wasn't so romantic as it was a partnership of convenience. The woman married to ensure herself financial support and possibly social standing. The man married for sex. Sounds cynical but if you strip away the rose-coloured glasses Hollywood fitted us with, well that's how it way.
      Seen that way, many of these rules do make a little more sense.

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    2. To strengthen this point - romantic love was a concept developed in the Middle Ages describing adulterous affairs. [e.g., King Aruthur & Lancelot]Romantic love was not a major consideration in marriage until recently.

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    3. Historian surveys the history of romantic love

      http://www.stephaniecoontz.com/books/marriage/chapter1.htm

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    4. well, yes, adulterous affairs: that was obvious the drawback of the reason marriage system: people would marry for convenience or reason and have affairs to satisfy their emotional needs...

      So I don't think the "reason" model is such a good example to follow...

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    5. according to your logic love is also not a good model to follow since they will just end up having affairs to satisfy emotional needs when the passion cools and they fall in love with others.

      you seem to view people as brainless creatures who are guided by emotions - not very flattering.

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