By and large the abuse comes from askanim or zealot rabbis. However it is important to note - this bullying doesn't go on just against bloggers or abuse victims. It is also used against the rabbinical leaders themselves. Tropper was not only good at handing at the goodies to those who supported him - but he was good threatening those who stood up to him. Thus he achieved the silence of gedolim - who knew he was twisted - but didn't want the burden that came with confronting him
One of America's leading gedolim was threatened that if he didn't sign a certain letter denouncing the Zoo Rabbi - he was finished because top student would no longer be sent to his yeshiva. He signed it.
Outraged has threatened me on various levels. - the spiritual (loss of olam habah for daring to criticize gedolim), social (find those who have influence with me so he can knock be out of my perch), psychlogical (I am sick and in need of therapy 4 days a week)...... etc etc.
These threats are not idle ones and he is seriously out to get me. This is the dynamic that the Netziv wrote about in his introduction to Bereishis. The Beis Hamikdash was destroyed because of pious individuals who felt that anyone who disagreed with them was a heretic and had to be killed. This righteousness was behind the lashon harah and sinas chinam.
I stopped reading outrage comments. They made absolutely no sense while just using the forum to bash you. I believe another topic should be discussed, lashon horah in a case of a shidduch, where parties are afraid to tell the truth in case they ruin the shidduch. It seems that many frum people hide the truth either because they don't know the Halacha or they are scared of a backlash from their talmidim.
ReplyDeleteI commend you for allowing Outraged to speak on this forum, even though he is uncivil. It is very important for everyone to hear all points of view.
ReplyDeleteOne of America's leading gedolim was threatened that if he didn't sign a certain letter denouncing the Zoo Rabbi - he was finished because top student would no longer be sent to his yeshiva. He signed it.
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One of America's leading gedolim??? How can such a man be called a "gadol"?
James: That quote above your comment is a falsehood. It never happened. There is no such person. Which is why no person was named.
DeleteThis is very serious, but bearing in mind that in the secular society one in three girls and one in four boys are raped before the age of 16 , I think that we need to see it in perspective.
ReplyDeleteWe are living in a very sick society that is driven by lust and greed. It is natural that it will effect everybody.
I would like to see a major anti-pornography and promiscuity campaign waged against the media in an effort to restore some semblence of morality. Then we can hope to tackle these phenomenae.
Do you have sources for those statistics?
DeleteFor instance this article says that one in three girls and one in six boys are sexually abused before they are 18, while leaving sexual abuse fairly loosely defined, not even necessarily requiring bodily contact. If you want to bandy about numbers please have a source to back them up so that they can be confirmed or not.
Rabbi Norman Lamm once said that you cannot open your mind to truth without risking letting falsehood, and conversely cannot close your mind to falsehood without risking shutting out the truth.
DeleteIf we build on the the Netziv's comment, I see it as extremely logical - and logic sometimes conflicts with faith.
In a sense, it doesn't matter where someone is on the spectrum of ultra-orthodox to centre to left. It is always easy to demonise someone who is outside of one's own group.
In the recent discussions on ORA, people were hurtling abuse at various rabbis, but it seemed "ok" to do it, since they were fair game for one reason or other. Taking a radical approach invites scorn, it is a sad fact, and many great people have suffered this fate, including Rambam and Rav Kook.
The statistic that 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 6 (or 1 in 7) boys is sexually abused by the time they are 18 years old is from the CDC and is listed on every reputable abuse website (e.g. National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, National Child Traumatic Stress Network, etc.). Many professionals believe these numbers are conservative.
DeleteRaffi
DeleteThere is a big difference between sexually abused and raped. Rape is a very specific act, whereas sexual abuse can and does cover a wider range activities, as the DSMIV points out.
My understanding concerning the statistics was that they were talking about instances of occurance of the various predatory paraphilic disorders listed in the DSM-5. Even under those the one diagnoses that specifically deals with sexual interest in children(pedophilia) actual physical contact is not a necessary part.
Right you are. I was just reporting the official statistics as they are listed.
DeleteThe (Internet) Troll "Outraged" is reminiscent of the troll by the name of "Roni" who used to come on this blog for years in defense of the disgraced Leib Tropper and EJF. At times it was probably Tropper himself "defending" his indefensible points of view and at other times there were others, sometimes under other trolling identities, who would fiercely debate and defend Tropper to the hilt.
ReplyDeleteIn real life it can get quite worse, when the situation gets closer to people in the Charedi world some of whom have the mind-set of gangsters, who are quite capable of mayhem, window smashing, burning down stores and houses, attempted and even sad to say real murder that is done in subterfuge when victims are suddenly pushed out of moving cars or defenestrated. This is dangerous territory but the Internet had made it impossible for such "enforcers" to succeed and why they hate "anonymity" while they themselves remain anonymous.
Bottom line, miscreants like "Outraged" and "Roni" are just obvious and pathetic jerks. This is what happens when so-called "kanoyim" rule the roost.
I have no idea what platform you are using to host your blog, but I would advise you to have the poster's IP address showup along with his name or pseudonym. If this is something simple to do, than why not? Let everyone posting here ID himself. Yes I realize that someone can take his iPad to an internet cafe and post from there, but this would still force the trolls to get out of their homes.
ReplyDeletedon't believe that Blogger allows this to be done -
Deletetoo bad; i am a big believer in "put up or shut up", in this case, ID yourself or don't bother writing.
DeleteYou would have to use Disqus or something like that for your comments. Blogger simply doesn't do it. Though I agree with Ben.
DeleteThe flip side is that people who belong to the establishment are able to comment - which they would not do if they could be identified
DeleteYou wouldn't be able to identify the actual person. Just whatever IP address their internet provider gives them. So it keeps you from having an argument with the same person under five different names.
DeleteWith Rav Wosner's psak on the internet I understand people wanting to retain their anonymity, I would just prefer that they be honest about it.
HU YIVARECH .. AISKIM B'TSARCHEI TZIBUR B'EMUNAH ! you should only be blessed .
ReplyDeleteIt's so ironic that the ones who say to leave abusers to the hands of heaven , turn into aggressive terrorists to defend their own prestige. On the Yom Hadin they will have a very terrifying revelation .