Tuesday, May 1, 2012

ORA, child abduction and Congress


Why does Ora support child abductors?   [guest post]
Would those rabbis who have given Ora their rabbinical endorsement [Rabbi Kenneth Auman, Rabbi David Bassous, Rabbi Eliyahu Ben Dahan, Rabbi Eliyahu Ben-Haim, Rabbi Ari Berman, Rabbi Azarya Berzon, Rabbi Yosef Blau, Rabbi Zevulun Charlop, Rabbi Menachem Genack, Rabbi Ozer Glickman, Rabbi Shmuel Goldin, Rabbi Meir Goldwicht, Rabbi Joseph Grunblatt,  Rabbi Shmuel Hain, Rabbi Basil Herring, Rabbi Elihayu Kaufman, Rabbi Barry Kornblau, Rabbi Norman Lamm, Rabbi Haskel Lookstein, Rabbi Yaacov Neuberger, Rabbi Marc Penner, Rabbi Steven Pruzansky, Rabbi Jason Rappoport, Rabbi Aaron Rakeffet, Rabbi Jonathan Rosenblatt, Rabbi Michael Rosensweig, Rabbi Yonason Sacks, Rabbi Hershel Schachter, Rabbi Fabian Schonfeld, Rabbi Michael Shmidman, Rabbi Peretz Steinberg, Rabbi Michael Taubes, Rabbi Elazar Meir Teitz, Rabbi Moshe Dovid Tendler, Rabbi Steven Weil, Rabbi Richard Weiss, Rabbi Jeremy Wieder, Rabbi Eliezer Zwickler, Rabbi Mordechai Willig] feel that the get is the only issue that the Jewish community should be concerned about if it were their child or grandchild that were abducted?
One of the abductors supported by Ora, is Anat Gelernter. [http://getora.com/pipermail/oravolunteers_getora.com/2006-September/000013.html].

Do Ora and its rabbis believe that Representative Lampson is wrong that the important issue in the case is Anat Gelernter's child abduction, rather than the fact that Gelernter does not have a get.  Congressional Record, May 16, 2000.

INTERNATIONAL ABDUCTION

(Mr. LAMPSON asked and was given permission to address the House for 1 minute.)
Mr. LAMPSON. Mr. Speaker, I rise today to tell about Yona Gelernter, whose three children were abducted to Israel by their mother, Anat Gelernter. On April 17, 1995, Chaya, Menachem and Chava were taken from their Brooklyn, New York home to Israel. As the parents were still married, Yona applied in the New York courts for emergency custody of his children. Additionally, because Israel is a signatory to the Hague Convention, he was able to apply for the return of his three children under the agreement. He filed his Hague petition in October of 1997 and on August 13, 1998, the Israeli courts ordered the immediate return of Chaya, Menachem and Chava to their father in the United States. However, when the mother learned that she had lost her case, she went into hiding with the three children. Yona has since hired private investigators in Israel to attempt to locate his wife and three children. He has not seen them since their abduction. Mr. Speaker, there are 10,000 American children out there whose stories are similar, 10,000 American children and their parents who experience the same kind of pain and devastation every day of their separation. This Congress must take action to solve this problem and help reunite parents with their children.  Mr. Speaker, we must bring our children home.

And do Ora's rabbis support Ora's attacking a member of Congress as comparable to child sex abusers [http://twitter.com/#!/oragunot] because the Representative has not commented on what halacha says about the get issue? 

22 comments:

  1. my name is rabbi gil student. i cannot discuss this case because it is loshon horah.

    but i can tell you with no proof whatsoever that there is not a single bais din in the world that recognizes rabbi abraham because his bais din is extortionist. i only do motzi sheym ra.

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    1. Inappropriate. The level of dialogue your publishing here casts serious doubt on the purity of your intent.

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    2. Rabbi Eidensohn, I am very troubled that you would publish this stan persons despicable comment. It adds nothing to any discussion and only serves to polarize any debate.

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    3. e-man what is it that you find despicable. Stan is simply pointing out that Rabbi Student has been strongly condemning such an approach when it involved Rabbi Broyde or Rabbi Schechter. It could be that Rabbi Student does in fact have evidence that the beis din in question is not accepted by anyone - however he did not produce it and there are those who claim his assertion is not true.

      I think it should be noted that this apparent double standard is not just relevant to Rabbi Student but also to Rabbi Berger.

      The issue that has been raised - and Rabbi Berger seems to have not read the large amount of material that I placed on this blog - is simply whether Rav Schachter has permitted pressure which is greater than the harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam or not.

      Rabbi Broyde's analysis is an attempt to show that it falls within the program of Rabbeinu Tam - but his approach makes a number of assumptions or deductions - which are not obvious - especially regarding Rav Moshe Feinstein's views.

      The fact that Rav Yosef and Tzitz Eliezar permit the use of the harhakos as well as Rav Sternbuch in modified form - even though this is represents a change from the status quo - doesn't show that ORA active humiliations activities are included.

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    4. What bothers me is his sarcastic and disparaging way of going about what he is trying to say. I would be fine with it if he wasn't speaking in a despicable manner. Why is mocking someone ok? That is not a civil discussion and only leads to sinah.

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  2. DAAS TORAH, any ideas when you will begin focusing on other Jewish/Israel issues that are on hand?
    A few suggestions; 1. Upcoming Lag Bomer in Meron 2. Citifield and Internet gathering 3. Deri is in or out of Shas 4. Netanyahu and his shiva - rules & regulations 5. Lack of space in Mesivta/High Schools for good boys who are not alef students.

    Please take a week's break from GET.

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    1. Simple solution - how about a guest post on a topic of your chosing?

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  3. I don't understand you. Where is your logic? If ORA took the Torah and ripped out the laws of Gittin, and told HaShem He made a mistake about the laws of Gittin, why should ORA care about children?

    THE ONLY THING IMPORTANT IN THIS WORLD AND THE NEXT IS FREEING AGUNOTH meaning any woman with or without children who is tired of her husband. Let the Torah cry, let the children cry, beat the husband with a baseball bat, but NOTHING ELSE COUNTS! And if you complain about this you are a MOTSEI SHEM RA.

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  4. in all the other cases e.g. kin, gerlernter etc whom does schachter blame for his relying on them?

    after all r shmuel kamenetsky had nothing to do with these cases.

    I urge you herschel schachter from the bottom of my heart to do t'shuva already. you are not an am ho'oretz. how do you explain this wild meshugeh behavior?

    when was the last time you protested arko'oys, mesirah such as false child abuse, geneivoh through arko'oys etc?

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    1. when was the last time you protested arko'oys, mesirah such as false child abuse, geneivoh through arko'oys etc?

      Stan I want to congratulate you. When you cease with the insults you actually raise very valid points.

      A Rav ought to stand for Torah and protest EVERY time it is violated, not only those that he is enamored of.

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  5. >The issue that has been raised - and Rabbi Berger seems to have not read the large amount of material that I placed on this blog - is simply whether Rav Schachter has permitted pressure which is greater than the harchakos of Rabbeinu Tam or not.<

    I'm probably way out of my league here, but I have a question: Does/Can halacha make allowances for changing environments? For example, things were probably quite a bit different back in the days of Rabbeinu Tam than they are today -- in so many ways.

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    1. Dovy - please read the large number of translated teshuvos - as well as Rav Gartner article I linked to regarding get meusa.

      The literature clearly indicates a change because of change in the nature of society. In the time of the gemora - there was no force used when a woman said my husband disgusts me (ma'us alei). Then there was a takana in the time of the early rishonim which permitted pressure - because wives would convert to Islam rather than remain agunas. The Ramban and Tosfos say that in their time the takana didn't apply. No pressure was allowed except for the program of social isolation of Rabbeinu Tam. In the period of the Achronim they stopped using Rabbeinu Tam's program. In more recent years people like Rav Moshe Feinstein, Rav Ovaida Yosef, Tzzitz Eliezar other others say there is a need for pressure and allow either indirect pressure or the program of Rabbeinu Tam.

      The sole issue being addressed here is whether the active humiliation of ORA is within the rules of Rabbeinu Tam and would thus be permitted according to Rav Yosef and others or whether it goes beyond and thus would be forbid.

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  6. Rabbi Eidensohn.
    Could you explain to us what to'eles it is to enumerate each and every rabbi that endorsed a organization in general and imply that they actively support each and every move by that organizationl?
    The disclaimer that you post on bottom of your site (if anybody gets to see it) does not absolve you of the Loshon horah, Motzee shem rah &/or Rechilus issues since there are circumstances where even l'to'eles is not allowed i.e. a enemy or foe of the 'me'doober.

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    1. You are assuming that these rabbis who publicly endorse ORA are ignorant of what ORA does and thus are not responsible for it? ORA makes no secret of what they do. There are video and pictures of the demonstrations. They have been written up in the NYTimes etc etc.

      So rather than saying these are perhaps unknown activities - the organization was created to do these things. It is not "each and every move" it is the essence of the organization.

      So you are claiming that I am speaking lashon harah about ORA because of their demonstrations or do you mean it is lashon harah that rabbis support organizations without bothering asking what they are doing.

      The Maharal says that if you are willing to tell the person to his face - it is not lashon harah.

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    2. Could you explain to us what to'eles it is to enumerate each and every rabbi that endorsed a organization in general and imply that they actively support each and every move by that organizationl?

      I can. It comes from a personal experience of when I wrote a letter of recomendation for someone into a Yeshiva program, who though I knew, I didn't really know well. When he turned out to be other than what he appeared on the surface, the Rav who trained me and sponsored me for Semikha called me, and in pretty direct terms told me that a Rav should not put his name to anything or anyone that he doesn't know completely, because people will rely on your endorsement as a statement of Kashrut.
      If a Rav endorses an org like ORA, he is saying that he agrees with what they do. If he does that without actually checking into the facts of what they do, how can you trust that Rav?
      If you make the claim that they endorsed them without knowing what they do, would you trust a hekhsher overseen by them? If what you are saying is true I certainly wouldn't.
      On the flip side, if they knew that ORA was violating Torah and kept silent, or agreed with it... how do you follow a Rav that would allow Torah to be violated when it fit his ideological agenda.
      Our agenda and outlook on the world as Jews and most especially as Rabbis must be defined by Torah, Torah cannot be defined by our political leanings.

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    3. Did you approach all or any of these Rabbonim first? Maybe there is Justification? That is the Torah approach - Just maybe "I AM MISSING A PIECE TO THIS PUZZLE" is a thought that should cross every ones mind BEFORE taking any kind of action. Especially site that blog..

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  7. DO YOU KNOW THAT ORA HAS WOMAN SINGING AT THEIR RALLIES. WHO KNOWS WHAT THEY WILL DO NEXT.

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  8. "The Maharal says that if you are willing to tell the person to his face - it is not lashon harah."

    What does the Chofetz Chayim say about this? He is the accepted "last word" on Loshon Horah.

    How about the last part? "are circumstances where even l'to'eles is not allowed i.e. a enemy or foe of the 'me'doober."
    Is the MaHaral also matir L"H etc. in such cases? Can you prove it? or are you taking a gamble?

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    1. curious what is your problem? What is eating you? The Chazon Ish didn't follow the view that Chofetz chaim was the last word. I have talked with a number of Rabbonim who told me the same thing.

      So some people view the Chofetz Chaim as the final world on lashon harah. Yes I'll take my chance of following the Maharal who was based on solid sources in the gemora and rishonim.

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  9. Please bring source for this douhtful maharal

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    1. I am suprised that since you are such an expert on the Chofetz Chaim you aren't aware that the Chofetz Chaim cites it. Alternatively you can see it volume II of my Child and Domestic Abuse pp 48-59

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