[[update]NYPost
The Queens man who claimed he was beaten and robbed by his estranged father-in-law and several other men was arrested today for falsifying a police report, The Post has learned.
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NY Post An Orthodox Jewish man from Queens allegedly tied up and beat his estranged son-in-law — and then forced him to recite the words for a rabbi-sanctioned divorce known as a “get.”
The Queens man who claimed he was beaten and robbed by his estranged father-in-law and several other men was arrested today for falsifying a police report, The Post has learned.
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NY Post An Orthodox Jewish man from Queens allegedly tied up and beat his estranged son-in-law — and then forced him to recite the words for a rabbi-sanctioned divorce known as a “get.”
“There were four guys in black ski masks. They pulled me, and they started beating me,” said Robert Klein, 25, of Brooklyn. He said they also took his cellphone and credit card.
“They tied my hands and feet. blindfolded me, beat me and made me repeat, ‘I want to give a get, and I’m doing so willingly and freely,’ ” said Klein, who is in a bitter divorce battle with wife Reva in Queens Supreme Court. The couple split after 10 months of marriage
Get Meusa. If she uses it she is committing adultery and giving birth to mamzeirim.
ReplyDeleteHopefully he'll never giver her a Get now, and shell grow old and lonely as a lesson for her actions here.
Hopefully he'll never giver her a Get now, and shell grow old and lonely as a lesson for her actions here.
DeleteThat is fairly harsh considering that surprisingly little is known about the entire case.
Things you don't know:
1) If a B"D ordered a Get
2) If there is valid domestic abuse
3) Who departed the marriage
4) If her father and his buddies acted on their own initiative(i.e. they aren't her actions).
It is real easy to pronounce a sentence with only a few of the facts, however, you could be wrong, and falsely condemning an innocent woman.
P.S. I am not saying that the father's actions were justified. I don't go in for vigilante justice.
ORA propagandist Tzadok is once again obfuscating and confusing the frum olam with irrelevant questions.
DeleteIn the very unlikely event a kosher B"D ordered a forced Get, using masked EIDIM (witnesses) will PASUL even a forced Get.
Using masked thugs in ski masks has nothing to do with Judaism, its just NY street gangsterism.
When will Tzadok stop trying to sell us feminist gangsterism as Judaism?
Once again for the reading impaired, I am against ORA fully and completely.
DeleteUsing masked thugs in ski masks has nothing to do with Judaism, its just NY street gangsterism.
I agree completely.
I'm not trying to sell anything. Torah True Judaism does not permit one to judge a woman for something she did not do, and for which almost none of the facts are known. That you take exception to this boggles the mind.
Hopefully he WILL give her a Get -- at the right time.
ReplyDeleteAnd the father-in-law will be prosecuted.
And everyone in their community who possibly supported the wife's claims will get a major dressing down by their Rav that NO violence is justifiable, except when in obvious self defense. And the wife should do some cheshbone-nefesh to see if perhaps such sinas chinam has also been driving her.
And everyone in their community who possibly supported the wife's claims will get a major dressing down by their Rav that NO violence is justifiable, except when in obvious self defense. And the wife should do some cheshbone-nefesh to see if perhaps such sinas chinam has also been driving her.
DeleteDo you know details that the rest of us don't?
While theoretically I agree with you, I can't say that as a father, and in the right circumstances, that I would always be restrained.
I know of a case where a husband beat his wife for 16hrs(I was an eid at the B"D). I know you are going to ask what she did to "provoke" such an attack. So I will tell you, because the husband told us all, she didn't make the cholent right and so "ruined" his shabbos. So he beat her, then when he missed mincha because he was beating her, he beat her for that too, and when he missed maariv and havdalla because he was beating her, he beat her for that too, and when I happened by on my way to daven netz, he was still beating for all of the above and for losing a night's sleep for beating...
I will leave aside the disturbing details of how the neighbors ignored the beating, or the near riot and subesequent holy war between sects when the police were called...
I will say that if I were the father of that young lady... I don't know if I would be restrained.
I also know a case of a lady who broke her arm and shoulder trying tackle her husband and he stepped out of the way. She then turned around tried to claim spousal abuse and say all kinds of nasty things against a man that as it turns out she had beaten and belittled for the better part of decade.
This case could fall anywhere on the spectrum between those two(or even outside of it). Like I said, I don't know the details of the case, and unless you or someone else does, beyond this rather abbreviated report, there is no way to say who was in the right, who was in the wrong, except that violence is always a bad idea... There is so much unknown here, that except to say that violence should be avoided, except in self-defense(and the obvious part of that isn't always so clear either), that anything said is little more than a lot of hot air.
As a father of 2 daughters approaching shidduch age, I also have moments of gut identification with someone who'd want to do anything to get a beast away from his daughter.
DeleteBut vigillante violence is wrong, period. Our guts are not judges! Just like that IDF officer caught smacking the liberal european civilian trying to do some sort of protest in the face with his rifle. Very understandable -- but WRONG.
Just like a wife who's unhappy with a husband's leaving a mess in the house and then decides to call him every name in the book in front of his children.
There are rules to fair fighting and until we realize that it's not just about the stronger party needing to restrain himself but EVERYone, even the passive-aggressors, doing so... we'll never stop the magefa of problems in maintaining shalom.
What a horrible thing to say, Chaim.
ReplyDeleteHope you wont find your daughter, nieces, grands in such a situation. You may come back in your next life gilgul as a WOMAN, how dreadful.
Hmmm. Chaim Manis must have an inside track on what happened here, maybe he should do a guest post. After all, he knows that she was some how involved in this beating, I mean other than being the wife of someone who is apparently unwilling to give her a get.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe he is just a misogynist who assumes an ex-wife deserves whatever she gets.
i don't have time to read all the stuff here here but i just want to mention the rema. sometimes a get is forced. personally i think that in ancient Israel a lot of discretion was left to the local judges in the community. The only reason gitin is a problem today is the local rabbis are often motivated by criteria other than fairness. usually it is money and power which determines which way they side. So I suggest that instead of rabbis people should go to the local rosh yeshiva. Roshei yeshivot are are fallible and can rule wrongly. But since they are involved in Talmudic study their decisions will in most probability be in accord with the Talmud and less in accord with which side is given them more money.
ReplyDeletereminder - I don't publish anonymous comments
ReplyDeleteThere is almost no excuse for refusing to give a get when the marriage has dissolved. If these vigilante efforts were more prevalent, we would have fewer agunot. Quite frankly, we would probably be better off if recalcitrant men felt there was a community preference for almanot over agunot.
ReplyDeleteAlmanot over Agunot. Good one.
DeleteRead and weep, anshei emes.
The prosecutors love prosecuting anyone who physically assaults a husband who refuses to give a Get. Just ask that couple in Lakewood who are currently charged by prosecutors for assaulting a husband and are facing 10 to 20 years of hard labor in the slammer.
DeleteI know they do, but I wish it were not the case. Again, I think as a community we would be better off if the perps who withhold gittin felt at risk and therefore were more cooperative. I chose the very strong language because it is one of the behaviors most directly against G-d's explicit castigation not to oppress the weak.
DeleteIs a B"D still permitted to issue a cherem against those that do not abide by its ruling, or is that now considered coercion?
ReplyDelete"EphraimMay 16, 2012 4:54 PM
ReplyDeleteIs a B"D still permitted to issue a cherem against those that do not abide by its ruling, or is that now considered coercion?"
I can only presume you are referring to the marsha'as who went to arko'oys who needs coercion to stp being mechalel sheym shomayim and be oyver mesirah..
I would not be choshed you that you belong to the biryonim of GetOra since I don't recall you blogging kefirah before.
"Almanot over Agunot. Good one."
ReplyDeleteThe shtusim and havolim of bechofer hakal shebekalim is that rabi akivah eiger says mefuresh in shulchan oruch that someone who takes in arko'oys more than he/she is entitled to al pi halochoh is oyver genaivoh and that if the money is used to perform a kiddushin the kiddushin is not chal (interesting he doesn't assume yi'ush).
Bechoffer quotes a case where the halochoh was pakened that the man was mechuyev to give a get al pi halochoh, not al pi the misyavnim of getora.
Now your talkin!
DeleteWow... faking a kidnapping and beating... now that is something you don't hear everyday.
ReplyDeleteNow that is some serious mesirah right there.
Doesn't say it was faking kidnapping and beating - just that his phone wasn't stolen
DeleteIt's still a false report and cast serious doubts on his allegations, which makes me really really wish that I had pointed out that his injuries didn't look like the result of an assault when I noticed initially (though I did mention it earlier this afternoon to a friend I was relating this story to).
DeleteAll of his injuries are straight lines, not consistent with a "beating" or even being dragged. Perhaps there is an explanation but right now it isn't looking too plausible.
"1) If a B"D ordered a Get"
ReplyDeleteLet me repeat here what I heard from R. Aharon Soloveichik when we were learning Sanhedrin. The authority of a Jewish beis din in chutz la'aretz derives from the authority of the local king -- in the case of Bavel from the Persian kings. (This is based on a Rashi in Sanhedrin 5a. "Persian" is a refernce to what in English books is termed Parthians, i.e. the Parthian Empire which during much of the time of Chazal ruled what we call Bavel and today is called Iraq.)
It follows that where the local authority forbids an activity, then such is beyond their power and anyone acting on it is not acting acc. to a legitimate beis din. That is the case in America today -- while Jewish batei din have some limited powers as an "arbitration board," they certainly have no power to order someone beaten until he gives a get. Therefore, anyone who does so today in America is causing a get meuseh, even if a "beis din" orders it.
I believe it happened just because the thug took Ben Brafman as his lawyer.
ReplyDeleteWhy in the world would someone take him for a case like this unless they actually did it?
Ben Brafman is a lawyer that you take when you know that your in major trouble and you pay the price to get off the hook.
Sean "P. Diddy" Combs Illegal Gun and Bribery Charges
Brafman's profile rose following his winning the acquittal of Sean "P. Diddy" Combs, who was acquitted from his 1999 illegal weapons and bribery charges. The criminal charges stemmed from a nightclub brawl, while accompanied by then-girlfriend Jennifer Lopez and Combs' usual entourage, and witnessed by over 100 other people. Despite the numerous prosecution witnesses to Combs' culpability, and Combs' fame, Brafman's legal skills produced a unanimous 'not guilty' verdict??????
Dominique Strauss-Kahn
In 2011, Brafman represented former IMF head Dominique Strauss-Kahn in a sexual assault case involving a member of the housekeeping staff of an upscale New York City hotel. Brafman and Strauss-Kahn's other lawyer, William W. Taylor, III, of Zuckerman Spaeder LLP, gained first a recommendation that charges be dropped from Cyrus Vance, and then charges dropped by New York State Supreme Court Justice Michael Obus?????
Brafman's older brother Aaron is an Orthodox rabbi in Far Rockaway, the Menahel of Yeshiva of Far Rockaway
When someone is innocent they don't take Brafman!