Rav Sternbach writes that in year תרצ'ו which is 1936, the kensia (agudah) objected to a Jewish state in Palestine. Think how many Jews could be saved if Israel was existed that time , three year after Hitler ימ'ש came to power and three years before the war.
The people who objected to establishment of the state have blood on their hands,
It was actually the beginning of the corruption of daas torah, a process which culminated in Tropper the shtuper having almost all the current gedolim eating from his hands
Thanks for posting this. I'd translate, but I presume I'd be accused of bias. I paraphrase the last paragraph in the comments thread on "Satmar rav says six day war was natural" I'd love for you to do an actual translation.
Umm, a few disrespectful comments. i wish to point out that I am very strong zionistly oriented person, and as have frequently quoted R' Goren, r' Kook z'tl. However, this is the position of the eda, which has not really changed in the last 70 years. We should have espect for R'Shternbuch shlita, who is certainly not extremist in his opposition, and will sit with Gedolim who accept the state (in the tardition of cordial relations between R' Sonnenfeld and r' Kook.
Just to set the record straight, Rav Elchonon Wasserman said that zionism including "religious" zionism is avoda zora beshituf.
This is the opinion of the bnai Torah of the Litvishe yeshivos.
Who says that those that live in the state of Israel or would have during the years mentioned above and would have violated the Torah were better off alive rather than dying al kiddush Hashem.
According to some contemporary rabbis (UOJ) [Rabbi] Wasserman is a murderer for sending his students to die rather than saving them by accepting visas from YU and the Skokie Yeshiva. If he wants to die that all well but to make other people die for his own convictions.
He is still much better than the Satmar rebbi who forbidden his people to leave but he himself escapes (with the help of the Zionists) and let his people to die
tzoorba- to set the record straight, no one's denying that. The chiddush here is that most Gedolim disagreed. Furthermore, one might question whether the Litvishe Bnai Torah are aware that they are following a minority opinion and condemning those that follow the majority as heretics.
tzoorba- did you read the teshuva? What exactly did they agree on there? Are you saying that the state is legitimate but avoda zarah anyways? Please clarify.
You might also want to see Rav Dessler in MM Vol 3 pg 352. Also Rav Wolbe has series of lectures in Bein Sheshes Le'asor. These are two bigtime litvishe mashgichim. (Rav Dessler is more pro the state, Rav Wolbe is more neutral but emphatic that there's nothing wrong with a state per se.)
Rav Elchonon didn't say that the state of Israel was invalid. It was actually started by Orthodox people in the beginning.
What he said was that Zionism was Avoda Zara. The Torah is complete without the new construct of Israel worship beyond the Torah's requirements.
The fiction of non religious people working for the good of Israel has largely been debunked with the advent of anti Israel and anti Jewish Jews. The supreme court and its anti security and pro Arab rulings is one case in point.
Dove- Okay, here goes. R Eidensohn has not posted the entitere teshuva, presumably beacuse it has nothing to with zionism. I will do the same, first summing up the beginning and then translating from the second paragrapgh on the righ that begins U'keeyn Zeh. The Teshuva is about reciting shecheyanu (a happy blessing) when a parent dies if they left one over a large inheritance. R Sternbuch says that is legitimate because you can overlook your own pain and thank Hashem. However by a Bris where the baby is suffering we do not.
(U'keeyn zeh) And like this I answered to a rabbi who claimed that on the day which was set aside for rejoicing over the founding of the stae that with all the faults and "shmados" of the medina, it is proper to bless on the kindness of Hashem that there is a place of refuge for the house of israel and on this it's prpoer to rejoice. And I answered him that if he is suffering it is proper to forget it and mention the kindness of Hashem, but when others are suffering that myriads have been taken from the religion and many killed in wars it is forbidden to rejoice until Hashem has mercy and we merit quickly the day that is totally good with the coming of Moshiach, then we can rejoice and thank Hashem with great joy. (U'kday) And it's worth bringing here the view of the Brisker Rav ZT'L on the state and I will copy from what is written by me that he said in the year 1947-8 before the founding of the state regarding his view that it is assur to establish a state.
cont (Sipru) They told Maran that in the books of Kabbalah it is written that before mashiach there will be a government and regime in the hands of the eirev rav and he replied that he doesn't believe it and they told him that also in Tanach there is a hint that the land will be divided and be under jewish rule before moshiach comes. And he answered that it is an explicit Gemorah that even if the there's a prophecy it is forbidden to go against the law of the Torah. Because in Brachos (10A) we see that chizkiah saw with ruach hakodesh and nevuah that he would have evil children and therefore did not get married. And it's strange because if he saw with RH that he's gointng to have kids what would it help to not get married? Must be that since according to him it's forbidden to do so, even if he saw with RH that it won't help it's assur to go against the Torah. (Will continue later from middle of paragraph)
cont (U'ledvorov) And according to his words, it is assur from the torah to make a state for this causes bloodshed and even if it were written in Navi that it will be so, it is assur for us to help. And in RMBM end of hilchos melachim it is explicit that christianity is preparation for mashiach bec they believe in god. Should we then help spread {second column} christianty to bring moshiach? (And I heard from the Gaon R Zalman Sorotzkin ZT"L that through this we give over the torah and education of our children to reshoim and heretics and there is no issur as bad as that.)
(Vehosif) And maran ZT"L added and brought shmuel (12-7) that shmuel had a complaint that they wanted a king . And it is difficult, is there not a full passuk "Som tasim alecha melech"? But they wanted a king like the way of the world that would organize soldiers and war against Amon and save them from their enemies and that is assur- only Hashem is their king and he will save them as long as they keep the torah. And here also the want a state to be saved from antisemitism and that itself is assur becuase all "hanhagas" klal yisroel is against nature and dependent only on keeping the torah and mitzvos and c"v a state.
(U'beeayr) And he explained further that in chumash bereshis (25-34) it says "eisav scorned the birthright" and it's difficult- in the midrash it says he commited 5 crimes and among them he had relaltions with a betrothed girl and murder, and why did the verse tetify about his wickedness just about the birthright? rather by all averos a person is liable to stumble, but to sell the the birthright for a bowl of lentils shows that the whole service of hashem is worth nothing to him. And similalry by zionism and the state- klal yirael always lives by relying on the promises of the prophets and the belief in the coming of moshiach and open miracles that will then occur. And the foundation of the state is to shatter all these, and it's like a bowl of lentils instead of the birthright and there is no sin like it.
(U'bshnas) And in the year 1937 they judged by the knessiah gedola about the founding of a partitioned state, and as is known, Hagaon R E Wasserman and Hagaon R A Kotler ZT"L wanted to leave when it appeared a danger that they would agree to a zionist regime and were prevented by the word (horaas) Hagaon R CO ZT"L, and Hagaon RYZ (Brisker Rav) was angered and very furious that that they were judging this when this could cause bloodshed. And Hagaon R A Kalmanowitz asked him why he cares so much that he's screaming so loudly- the british anyway don't consider the rabbi's (don't care what they say- ss) and he brought the gemara sanhedrin 56a that chizkia worried that Hashem would go with the majority, just they told him that a cabal of the wicked don't count, implying that if they're not reshaim, HKBK goes with the majority and therefor he claimed then and said that by the knessiah gathered a majority of the gedolei hador and HKBH goes with the majority and they agreed on the actual state just argued whether it is permitted to forgo parts of EY. And he said then (in 1937) I worry that it will be upheld because this is not a cabal of the wicked and they count. Till here I heard- and is written by me- from his son RYD ZT'L
Translation, please.
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad he has the confidence to believe he knows the mind of God. Such ga'avah!
ReplyDeleteRav Sternbach writes that in year תרצ'ו which is 1936, the kensia (agudah) objected to a Jewish state in Palestine. Think how many Jews could be saved if Israel was existed that time , three year after Hitler ימ'ש came to power and three years before the war.
ReplyDeleteThe people who objected to establishment of the state have blood on their hands,
It was actually the beginning of the corruption of daas torah, a process which culminated in Tropper the shtuper having almost all the current gedolim eating from his hands
Thanks for posting this. I'd translate, but I presume I'd be accused of bias. I paraphrase the last paragraph in the comments thread on "Satmar rav says six day war was natural" I'd love for you to do an actual translation.
ReplyDelete>Think how many Jews could be saved if Israel was existed that time , three year after Hitler ימ'ש came to power and three years before the war.<
ReplyDeleteBut.. but... then there'd be more Zionists!!
Umm, a few disrespectful comments. i wish to point out that I am very strong zionistly oriented person, and as have frequently quoted R' Goren, r' Kook z'tl. However, this is the position of the eda, which has not really changed in the last 70 years.
ReplyDeleteWe should have espect for R'Shternbuch shlita, who is certainly not extremist in his opposition, and will sit with Gedolim who accept the state (in the tardition of cordial relations between R' Sonnenfeld and r' Kook.
Just to set the record straight, Rav Elchonon Wasserman said that zionism including "religious" zionism is avoda zora beshituf.
ReplyDeleteThis is the opinion of the bnai Torah of the Litvishe yeshivos.
Who says that those that live in the state of Israel or would have during the years mentioned above and would have violated the Torah were better off alive rather than dying al kiddush Hashem.
gangsta...please bring a source for this blood lieble
ReplyDeleteAccording to some contemporary rabbis (UOJ) [Rabbi] Wasserman is a murderer for sending his students to die rather than saving them by accepting visas from YU and the Skokie Yeshiva. If he wants to die that all well but to make other people die for his own convictions.
ReplyDeleteHe is still much better than the Satmar rebbi who forbidden his people to leave but he himself escapes (with the help of the Zionists) and let his people to die
tzoorba- to set the record straight, no one's denying that. The chiddush here is that most Gedolim disagreed. Furthermore, one might question whether the Litvishe Bnai Torah are aware that they are following a minority opinion and condemning those that follow the majority as heretics.
ReplyDeleteShaul Shapiro,
ReplyDeleteI'll accept your offer to translate this. But please be inclusive of the whole, rather than select portions.
Thanks
A link to r' Wasserman letter is here
ReplyDeletehttp://failedmessiah.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/02/12/elchonon_wasserman_letter_about_yu.jpg
elchonon_wasserman_letter_about_yu.
UOJ and failed meshugene, 2 great apikores sources. Yes, I really trust these sources for information about Judaism /not.
ReplyDeleteShaul Shapira,
Where do you take it from that most Gedolim disagreed? Did they come to minyan somewhere? This sounds like wishful thinking to me.
tzoorba- did you read the teshuva? What exactly did they agree on there? Are you saying that the state is legitimate but avoda zarah anyways? Please clarify.
ReplyDeleteYou might also want to see Rav Dessler in MM Vol 3 pg 352.
Also Rav Wolbe has series of lectures in Bein Sheshes Le'asor.
These are two bigtime litvishe mashgichim. (Rav Dessler is more pro the state, Rav Wolbe is more neutral but emphatic that there's nothing wrong with a state per se.)
Dove I typed a response to you doesn't to have posted. Will try to translate next week. Pleas try to find someone to learn it with you.
ReplyDeleteshsaul shapiro did not delete any of your comment
ReplyDeleteShaul: Thanks. Looking forward to seeing your translation here.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteRav Elchonon didn't say that the state of Israel was invalid. It was actually started by Orthodox people in the beginning.
ReplyDeleteWhat he said was that Zionism was Avoda Zara. The Torah is complete without the new construct of Israel worship beyond the Torah's requirements.
The fiction of non religious people working for the good of Israel has largely been debunked with the advent of anti Israel and anti Jewish Jews. The supreme court and its anti security and pro Arab rulings is one case in point.
tzoorba- Othodox jews started the state?! And R' Elchonon approved?! Have you read the Teshuva or you just being Geshmak?
ReplyDeleteDove- Okay, here goes.
ReplyDeleteR Eidensohn has not posted the entitere teshuva, presumably beacuse it has nothing to with zionism. I will do the same, first summing up the beginning and then translating from the second paragrapgh on the righ that begins U'keeyn Zeh.
The Teshuva is about reciting shecheyanu (a happy blessing) when a parent dies if they left one over a large inheritance. R Sternbuch says that is legitimate because you can overlook your own pain and thank Hashem. However by a Bris where the baby is suffering we do not.
(U'keeyn zeh) And like this I answered to a rabbi who claimed that on the day which was set aside for rejoicing over the founding of the stae that with all the faults and "shmados" of the medina, it is proper to bless on the kindness of Hashem that there is a place of refuge for the house of israel and on this it's prpoer to rejoice. And I answered him that if he is suffering it is proper to forget it and mention the kindness of Hashem, but when others are suffering that myriads have been taken from the religion and many killed in wars it is forbidden to rejoice until Hashem has mercy and we merit quickly the day that is totally good with the coming of Moshiach, then we can rejoice and thank Hashem with great joy.
ReplyDelete(U'kday) And it's worth bringing here the view of the Brisker Rav ZT'L on the state and I will copy from what is written by me that he said in the year 1947-8 before the founding of the state regarding his view that it is assur to establish a state.
Shaul, are you going to post the translation?
ReplyDeletecont
ReplyDelete(Sipru) They told Maran that in the books of Kabbalah it is written that before mashiach there will be a government and regime in the hands of the eirev rav and he replied that he doesn't believe it and they told him that also in Tanach there is a hint that the land will be divided and be under jewish rule before moshiach comes. And he answered that it is an explicit Gemorah that even if the there's a prophecy it is forbidden to go against the law of the Torah.
Because in Brachos (10A) we see that chizkiah saw with ruach hakodesh and nevuah that he would have evil children and therefore did not get married. And it's strange because if he saw with RH that he's gointng to have kids what would it help to not get married? Must be that since according to him it's forbidden to do so, even if he saw with RH that it won't help it's assur to go against the Torah.
(Will continue later from middle of paragraph)
cont
ReplyDelete(U'ledvorov) And according to his words, it is assur from the torah to make a state for this causes bloodshed and even if it were written in Navi that it will be so, it is assur for us to help. And in RMBM end of hilchos melachim it is explicit that christianity is preparation for mashiach bec they believe in god. Should we then help spread {second column} christianty to bring moshiach? (And I heard from the Gaon R Zalman Sorotzkin ZT"L that through this we give over the torah and education of our children to reshoim and heretics and there is no issur as bad as that.)
(Vehosif) And maran ZT"L added and brought shmuel (12-7) that shmuel had a complaint that they wanted a king . And it is difficult, is there not a full passuk "Som tasim alecha melech"? But they wanted a king like the way of the world that would organize soldiers and war against Amon and save them from their enemies and that is assur- only Hashem is their king and he will save them as long as they keep the torah. And here also the want a state to be saved from antisemitism and that itself is assur becuase all "hanhagas" klal yisroel is against nature and dependent only on keeping the torah and mitzvos and c"v a state.
ReplyDeleteLast 2 paragraghs hopefully tomorrow
(U'beeayr) And he explained further that in chumash bereshis (25-34) it says "eisav scorned the birthright" and it's difficult- in the midrash it says he commited 5 crimes and among them he had relaltions with a betrothed girl and murder, and why did the verse tetify about his wickedness just about the birthright? rather by all averos a person is liable to stumble, but to sell the the birthright for a bowl of lentils shows that the whole service of hashem is worth nothing to him. And similalry by zionism and the state- klal yirael always lives by relying on the promises of the prophets and the belief in the coming of moshiach and open miracles that will then occur. And the foundation of the state is to shatter all these, and it's like a bowl of lentils instead of the birthright and there is no sin like it.
ReplyDelete(U'bshnas) And in the year 1937 they judged by the knessiah gedola about the founding of a partitioned state, and as is known, Hagaon R E Wasserman and Hagaon R A Kotler ZT"L wanted to leave when it appeared a danger that they would agree to a zionist regime and were prevented by the word (horaas) Hagaon R CO ZT"L, and Hagaon RYZ (Brisker Rav) was angered and very furious that that they were judging this when this could cause bloodshed. And Hagaon R A Kalmanowitz asked him why he cares so much that he's screaming so loudly- the british anyway don't consider the rabbi's (don't care what they say- ss) and he brought the gemara sanhedrin 56a that chizkia worried that Hashem would go with the majority, just they told him that a cabal of the wicked don't count, implying that if they're not reshaim, HKBK goes with the majority and therefor he claimed then and said that by the knessiah gathered a majority of the gedolei hador and HKBH goes with the majority and they agreed on the actual state just argued whether it is permitted to forgo parts of EY. And he said then (in 1937) I worry that it will be upheld because this is not a cabal of the wicked and they count. Till here I heard- and is written by me- from his son RYD ZT'L
ReplyDeletethanks for putting the effort in to do a very good translation
ReplyDeleteThanks for the translation!
ReplyDelete