Bechoros(46a)/Gittin(36a)/(Makkos 16b): There was a case of a teacher of children who had physically abused his students [by beating them excessively – Rashi Gittin 36a] [ and some of them had died – Rashi Bechoros 46a] and as a result he had been made to take an oath by Rav Acha not to teacher children anymore [Rashi – Gittin 36a]. However Ravina had reinstated him because there was no other teacher who taught as precisely or as well.
Tzitz Eliezer( 22:59.2): You ask regarding Rashi (Bechoros 46a) who said that the students didn’t die immediately after the teacher beat him, “I don’t understand. Even if the students didn’t die immediately from the teachers blows, how could Ravina reinstate him just because he couldn’t find a better teacher – is it permitted to reinstate a teacher who causes his students to die? Furthermore you note that it doesn’t mention at all that the teacher promised to stop his evil ways?” It appears that this is a very serious question. In answer there are two issues 1) Rashi doesn’t have to be understood that it was typical that the students were hit harder than necessary that they eventually died but rather that it did happen. 2) It is also clear that after the teacher was removed from his position he repented of his evil ways. However he was not able to be reinstated because of the oath that Rav Acha had made until Ravina came and released him from the oath because there was need for this teacher and thus it was considered a mitzva. But this was only because he had already promised to turn over a new leaf.
Nobody should confuse physical abuse versus sexual abuse.
ReplyDeleteYou can repent from physical abuse. With the proper training, turning over a new leaf is possible.
The sex abuser, even with therapy and management, can't be trusted. There is no cure.
Under the right circumstances, the physical abuser can be restored to the classroom; but never, the sex abuser.
Elliot: What you related may well be the secular view. The Torah view, on the other hand, recognizes the availability of redemption for everyone.
ReplyDeleteSteve said...
ReplyDeleteElliot: What you related may well be the secular view. The Torah view, on the other hand, recognizes the availability of redemption for everyone.
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Steve you are wrong. It is difficult to prove that an abuser has truly repented and is no longer a danger - and thus realistically he can not be trusted
Furthermore - we have a clear statement of the Rambam regarding not trusting certain types of criminals.
Rambam (Hilchos Teshuva 3:14): Concerning the sinners and heretics who lose their portion in the World to Come. … that is only if they die without repenting. However, if they truly repent then they obtain the World to Come since there is nothing which stands in the way of repentance. Therefore, if a person has been a heretic all his life but repents at the end then he has the World to Come…. All the wicked, the heretics and those like them, if they repent either openly or in private they are accepted…
Rambam (Hilchos Avoda Zara 2:5): … a Jewish heretic is not considered a part of the Jewish people and he is never accepted back even if repents…It is prohibited to talk with them or reply to them in any manner…
Rambam (Letter #615:8): …concerning the apparent contradiction [between Hilchos Teshuva and Hilchos Avoda Zara] as to whether a heretic can repent and obtain the World to Come. In fact, there is no contradiction. The statement found in Hilchos Avoda Zara that his repentance is not accepted means that he is always presumed to be a heretic. His apparent repentance is to be assumed to be from fear or to fool people. The other statement from Hilchos Teshuva that their repentance is accepted is referring to the case where they have in fact genuinely repented - in their relationship to G d. That is why they obtain the World to Come. It is specifically dealing with their relationship to G d. The first statement from Hilchos Teshuva is describing their relationship with other people - and in that case, their repentance is presumed to be false.
DT: It's clear from your quoted Rambam that the Rambam is only speaking of a heretic, which he singularly considers a special case unlike any other.
ReplyDeleteSteve said...
ReplyDeleteDT: It's clear from your quoted Rambam that the Rambam is only speaking of a heretic, which he singularly considers a special case unlike any other.
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No it would obviously apply in any case we are concerned that the repentance is false. Rambam is saying that potentially every sin can be repented but practically speaking we don't trust teshuva in certain issues. You are saying it is only heresy and I say that it obviously applies to abuse and other issues where we are concerned that he is lying.